https://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/crawler_dozers/1050k_ft4/1050k_ft4.page
Looks like they're trying to grab a share of the D8T market? Little more weight, little more power, hopefully they are all Deere and not Liebherr anymore.
wow hydrostatic with that much hp... I bet resale value will be scrap once it gets a few hours on it...
Its good to see CAT get a little competition in this size tractor. But I think they will have a hard time moving many of these. The Komatsu 155 doesn't sell as well as the D8.It seems that Deere and Komatsu are fairly competitive in the D6 size and down. Then Komatsu makes the larger 275 and up these seem to move. I don't think I would be afraid of the hydrostat , but it would weigh on cost to rebuild vs cost of a trans in a D8. It does seem these hydrostats are getting easy to diagnose due to onboard computers. I think the Komatsu and Deere have self diagnostic where as CAT you have to have the software. I have read where the Liebher version was kind of a lemon. This could get interesting .
ditto what .RC. said..
I don't think deere is trying to take that market over night. Its no doubt going to be hard to break the D8 mold but if deere backs it, services it and gives few problems it will get there. And this machine is built in house. I believe that was some of the reason the 950/1050 C's and J's didn't sell so well.
Here's some fuel for the fire: John Deere knows how to build a power shift, they obviously know how to build a hydrostat, why couldn't they offer a fluid drive(i.e. torque converter) powershift option? Something tells me that they could probably jump their sales by 50%, maybe more. They already have the platform in the farm tractors.
End of the day, it is cheaper initially to build a hystat machine, as you eliminate a lot of complicated frame machining/alignment issues. Hence virtually all small dozers and loaders moving that way. It's the owner who picks up the tab for this reduced build cost when the damn systems start to wear. You can run around with a below-par hystat system a long time and not realise it until you get on a new one. However, when you look at the first 943's, and other hystat machines of that vintage, they have moved on a long way from a reliability and operating point of view. IMHO of course.
I'll keep the D8, thanks. A hystat trans in that machine is asking for trouble. I'm s mechanic, and I think I'll hold gears with a torque converter
Thinking out loud here. Here is say the 1050K vs D8T by comparison in cost of machine over a life time. Undercarriage cost should be cheaper. Ground engaging tools and servicing should be inline of one another depending on dealer cost for typical maintenance items. Fuel consumption. Cost of emission equipment if need be replaced.(which i have heard that on some machines it will last until the first engine over haul) Then you are down to drive-train. Who's to say the D8 will be cheaper?? IMO, unless you are/have a fleet of cats to where you get some kind of cost savings: cost is generally higher when you buy the cat name up front as well as their parts. Again IMO, That's some of the reason that other Equipment OEM's get in the door. Of course dealer support will factor one way or the other if the machine is down. All this is based off keeping the machine till its end. Not necessarily worried about resale. While I do understand some of the concerns of a hydrostatic and specifically the 1050K, now that Deere is building it, we will have to wait and see how they hold up. Yes we can look at the smaller dozers and the C/ J series. The 1050K is not those machines. Keep in mind I add this post noting that I may have forgotten things, but I was just stating the few off the top of my head. Please chime in with more.
I'll say it.
For what its worth , I was on an old 855 Deere loader few years ago. It was a heavy old machine 40k plus pounds , u/c was rougher than a cob etc. Surprisingly, it operated pretty decent , all we did was load trucks with it. Just pointing out Deere made that machine in the early 80s maybe late 70s and it was decent to have an unknown amount of hours on it. I don't see why this won't work , i'm no engineer , but it its a scaled up 650 , being everything is larger , I can't see why it won't work. I've seen a lot of Cat track loaders with 14 to over 20k hours on them and all they had done was resealing odds and ends. Plus being cheaper to build is a plus being competitive in that market. I have faith in the Deere R/D department as well. All this being said , my biggest machine is 10 tons, so what do I know.
But yet, you say nothing??
Good looking machine. As a service tech, I see the need for service. In my area we have 20 Cat trucks which isn't enough, 3 Deere guys, 5 Komatsu, 2 Volvo/ Hitachi. The biggest thing for competition is keeping the machines running. Least amount of downtime wins. Put some support behind them and they will do fine.
Forgive my ignorance but why don't they use a high drive on this like the CAT? Also why does cat use the high drive? What is the advantage?
Let's not start down this road..........
Think the 950 / 1050 are both rebadged Liebherrs, the sales brochure shows them both having Liebherr engines.
The J's yes, the new K's are Deere built/design
As an operator and part time mechanic I have been impressed with just about everything that I have encountered that John Deere has designed and built.That is not to say everything with the John Deere badge is always desirable from an owners point of view but anything built in house has to be worth a second look.Cat builds great stuff but they have some anchors in their inventory too.If I had a choice in rubber tired backhoes I would take a John Deere every time hands down.Now a 580 Case is a nice nice machine,that is I mean that it is a very capable machine and once you get accustomed to the foot swing you may like it better than the two sticks that most everyone else uses but I just seems that JD listened to input from the customers to design and build what would be,as it turned out,the standard that everyone else has to to meet to be competitive.If you run any of the small dozers from JD (450,550,650) you have to consider them a hotrod,they do everything well,it is almost like the machine challenges the operator to ask of it something that it cannot do,like it is saying to you "show me what you got". If you come to a JD dozer for the first time after running the competition you have got to smile and I have done it many times over the years,you just cannot put those machines in a situation that it cannot handle,I never got in trouble on a JD that was not my own fault.Yeah,I like them.LOL I happened to see the add on the JD website last night on my own before I read this post and laughed at the comment about sleeping dogs lying and the cat association that they made,there was no mistaking where that was headed.Ron G
Yair . . . Any comment I make on this topic is pretty much meaningless . . . I have no knowledge of John Deere dozers or hydrostatic drive but damn, from an old oval track hand that machine looks well balanced and most impressive, it sure will be interesting to come back to this thread in a couple of years time and see how they have performed. And by the way RonG all the best mate, I never realised you had such major issues, it's good to see you back. Cheers.
I ask this same question all the time.....
Cat came out with high drives in the 80's, none of the major players worldwide ever took the idea and used it in production, as to why, what I've been told is over the long run, in many applications industry wide, it never was a major benefit compared to low track drive or what's been around since the start of tracked machines, now everyone has their opinions on this with likes and dislikes but as of now, if you want high drive go buy a few models of cat, which also still offer low track drive machines as well. As has been stated by their competition, if they're so great, why does cat even offer any low track drive machines anymore??? As for any size of fully hydrostatic machine being too large, until someone builds and tests it over time, or has decades of time to study it, who's to say when something is too large for a certain technology, the same thing was discussed with smaller dozers when the hydrostatic drives came out and now most everything in smaller new dozers are hydrostatic drive in every brand of dozer, but it took time to work out the bugs, as they say, everything takes time and people have to test it to find out if they like it or will continue to keep buying that size and kind of technology. Deere machines are very popular in my area, been around them, ran a few, and for the most part, they are well liked from what I've been told, time will tell if this size and technology of dozer will stand the test of time, but glad deere is doing it, someone needs to push the boundaries to see if there's a need or want, that and I'd love to sit in and run one of this size to see for myself what its like. The one's I've run so far have been a nice machine, well balanced, well built and are nice to operate and be around in general. To help answer your question 450smrider, if for no other reason, you have choices as to what type of dozer and drivetrain you can buy, cat offers high drives, the rest low drives, some machines offer hydrostatic drives, others the old tried and tested transmissions and torque converter drives and hopefully in the future, whatever else someone can dream up, and oh yea, cat even offers an electric drive unless they quit making that dozer, which if I recall wasn't a high drive but rather a low track drive.
CAT equipment such as a D8T has onboard diagnostics. You can also do calibrations through the main display.
Originally Posted by 90plow why does cat use the high drive? What is the advantage? It was originally thought that by moving the sprocket up out of the dirt it would reduce sprocket and track wear. It didn't really improve track life but it did make service and repair of the transmission easier.
I've heard you can get the transmission out of a D8 pretty easily for service - anyone know if that's the case? The hydrostatic and electric CAT dozers are all oval drive. Are they sticking with the high drive just because it's a proven design and easier to service?
High tracked dozer trasmissons with out rippers come out pretty quickly is true.
Let's hope this thread doesn't turn into a high track/oval track all out war zone that has happened on here before. I am completely convinced that NOBODY needs that trainwreck going on. Hopefully we can focus more so on the torque converter/powershift vs. hydrostatic discussion.
Maybe CM, digger, or Willie could link a locked thread or two for the new guys to see what happens if this debate were to heat up. I don't want one, just thinking if the new guys could see what happens, maybe things can be kept on track.
Mestizo, any photo's from the operators standpoint or view, from within the cab? Shimmy1 your right, hostility isn't needed at all, its just discussion, as for being off topic, one topic leads to another, its all about dozers and drive systems, we might also discuss hydrostatic drives on other machines as well, say for example tile plows, which are in that 400 plus hp now, and they only use hydraulic motors to drive the tracks, same as excavators, both which utilize a planetary setup, anyone want to compare those to the new dozer setups, or explain what's different between those drive setups?
Guys around here are running 600 hp Bron plows. They have at least a 36" dia. sprocket. With a outboard planetary that looks like it belongs on a D9. I would guess that they should be reliable enough for the fact that you're not cycling back and forth, forward/reverse all day long. That and you only ever move under load around 1-2 mph. Also factor in it's not beating across rocks, ridges, edge of cuts, whatever. All factors for the life of a final.
This is the only picture I could find on the Deere site, not the best.
Here's another one from one of the videos on the site.
U won't beat a Cat, Cat have alwase ruled the roost with dozers and is not likely to change any time soon.
Well, that's your opinion, not everyone's. I have ran a D8R AND a 1050J. I felt the 1050 "J" didn't have quite as much grunt as the 8. BUT, the 1050 "K" has another almost 10 ton of weight and 20+ more horsepower. Maybe we should wait and see what some guys have to say that have ran both.
It all depends on how bad JD wants that market. I used to think highly of them they stepped up to the plate on the older C series dozers when they wasn't holding up as long as they wanted and rebuilt a bunch of the hydrostatic systems for pennies on the dollar($1.00 per machine hr)and give you series II controls and dash. but lately they have done a complete 180 on their loaders and will not stand behind obvious manufacturing defects just look at the large JD wheel loaders when they get some hr's on them you can't give them away.
In the U.K. we sadly dont have any representation for J Deere construction equipment but we do have something that looks around the same lump a 764 Liebherr, this tractor is a complex chunk of bits riding on bogey bottom rollers with the power to stuff CAT 631's, it can easily make a Komatsu 155 look a Sickly Child at this type of task. tctractors
Shimmy1, you must not be in rock country out there, with granite, limestone and shale for the plow guys to bang around in then, that and toss a few cowboys into the seat and kick that ground speed up a bit to say 7 mph and then stop it dead hitting large rocks. As for size of planetary drives, with enough hours and testing I'd think any company could and eventually will increase dozer size utilizing hydrostatic drives, by increasing planetary size and design on any machine, no matter the use. Just pointing out the plow industry has been using higher hp than any dozer for years with this concept, and every year increases both planetary size, machine size and hp due to ever increasing need for speed and efficiency installing tile. Mestizo, thanks for the added photo's.
Yeah, right on. It's all good farmland around here and even better farther east in the Valley.
I'd love to try one of these dozers out, they look very nice. I am running a brand new CAT D8T at work right now and it would be nice to be able to compare the two brand new machines. The hydrostatic interests me having power to both sides when turning would be a huge plus. That and having some corks welded to the grousers would do a world of help.
The Cat is diff steer, isn't it? The only advantage to hydro I can think of is you could maintain speed around the corner because hydro speeds up the outside track? Downside to that is if you're close to max power, you may not have the power available to spin that track faster?
Your right, i thought it was different for some reason. I'm thinking the older crawlers like a tool. I'm use to running a 963d track loader having counter rotation for tight corners is nice. Just started on a D8T this week. I'm relatively new to crawlers in general.
Bet that's a damn sweet machine to shove dirt around with. Got a U-blade or straight? Dual tilt?
Grounds frozen so I get to play in snow instead lol. I work for my local city at our snow dump where everyone in the area hauls their snow from parking lots yards and the streets. Pretty lame year so far. The d8t has a u blade, and single tilt. Has a 3 shank ripper with the 4 hydraulic rams, I belibe they call those 4 barrel? Has HID lights all over it that are so bright. Cab is WAY quieter then the 2006 d8T we had before. I do wish they would put corks on these grousers. Would make life a lot easier instead of feeling like I'm on skates when I get to the bottom of the ramp. Hopefully that link works.
Yuck, nothing like snow ruining a $40,000 undercarriage. Gotta love that nice, shiny new paint.
ippielb, I think you might find that your D8 can spin turn. try leaving the trans in N and turn the steering wheel it should manage a spin via Diff Steer, its what I use when loading over the side on trailers. tctractors
Corks take all the fun out of it )Ron G
That's one thing I did figure out is I like that I don't need to have track speed to turn in spot. My 963d I was running in the summer you needed to have either forward speed or reverse speed to turn. Corks are so nice. We had a d8 rented two years ago with a 1-2-1-2 pattern on the grousers and it felt like you could climb a vertical ice wall lol. This one we have now doesnt have any and it loves to slide around.
I need to be educated as to what "corks " are. Back to the thread at hand , I was thinking about how smaller dozers came to be hydrostat. Seems like Deere had them earlier on and everybody else followed later on , this may be wrong , but most all dozers under 15 ton now are hydrostat. That said , it makes me wonder if the same will follow in larger tractors. The Cat 973 is the biggest hydro machine that I can think of , not sure of the weight but I think they are 30 ton or so. If these 1050's prove out , and people like them I would think others will follow.
The big Liebherr's have been hydro since the 80's?? My dad used to say they had heating problems. (no idea how he could possibly know that) As to the Liebherr-Deere marriage, my guess is at the time, a re-branded Liebherr was the best option for Deere to find out if us fussy buggers here in the US would accept a 40 ton hydrostatic dozer. Obviously Deere thinks so, since we are here talking about the 1050K, allegedly all Deere.
It's all Deere. Don't let anyone tell you the K is a Liebherr machine.
Dickjr. as to why the hydrostat machines came about, some customers wanted more in a dozer than to stop one track to turn, that started the idea of two speed turning IH/dresser and case offered in smaller dozers, many decades ago, then along came the big introduction of skid steers and that technology which evolved into a fully hydrostat machine, which is what we have in skid steers now and have had for many decades, [some of us remember the old belt drive models]. When hydrostat dozers came out, can't remember for sure who made the first one here in the US but a similar conversation was discussed, you can't put skid steer technology into a dozer, even though it was already used in many different aspects of the industry in larger still machines. But customers have gotten used to it, and really like it enough to keep buying the machines, so size increased over time and now we're at in size of machines today, deere is testing the waters to see if people want and like this size of dozer all deere built. Deere has done this many times over and its not a new concept for them, cut a deal with someone on a machine, do a joint venture, and then after its proven and people want it, cancel the deal and build their own machine, same thing that they did with New Holland on skid steers and a few others, if they can't buy them out that is. The big issue everyone is having who claim it won't work is reliability and cost to repair, smaller hydrostat dozers have proven themselves in both reliability and being cost effective to repair, or maybe the correct term is, the operator friendly hydrostat offsets the cost to repair or people like them enough they'll pay to fix them, however you want to look at it.
I believe you hit the nail on the head with the reason manufactures went looking for a different way of moving machines. And I think there will always be a learning curve to anything new. Took a while for people to realize the cost vs production of gps. On the joint venture deals they are for a set time period. And if you look at what machines Deere has partnered with, they really believe in that design and run with it. Look at how new holland pretty much kept that same design for all those years and then how far Deere has taken it since. I think the Bell buy in was more of a global out look more then just one continent out look like it has been with the 950/1050's and 655/755's. It seems that the liebherr and deere relationship has worked out well and is doing good. Back to the hystats, Deere's first was in 99 with the H on dozers as you know. Who was first I don't recall?? The only real problem I see with hydro's is loss of power from engine to the ground. I know I really like a 650G. So that leaves us with one grey or unknown area which is cost to rebuild/replace hydro's vs powershift, torque converters and other types. I don't know if it would be similar to the smaller dozers??
Weren't some of the C's hydrostatic?
Yes. And I think they came out in 70's. I had small dozer on the mind.
Deereman, as for the loss of power in the transmit from the engine to the ground, this is getting less each model that comes along, new technology has come a long way in hydraulics in the last couple decades and I'd imagine that gap between the power shift and the hydrostat will get less over time. I'm not sure how many decades these conversations will be kept, but it would be interesting to look back in 50 years from now to 2014/15 to read over these conversations as our kids can laugh till their sides hurt on how we discussed issues that are so far past their time and obsolete by then, their only a memory and considered something in an archive file only a few history buffs will ever read. Just a thought someone passed along to me just this morning about another topic we were discussing. I'm probably all wrong but weren't all the 850 models deere made hydrostat drive of some sort, even the B model and straight 850??
That's what I think, too.
J. Deere, took a good beating in the European Courts by Caterpillar Inc over the rubber track type tractor, so I would think the all J. Deere built tractor that looks to be dripping with Liebherr gizmo's might be a hard thing to bluff about. tctractors
Have an 850c at work believe it's hydrostatic. Has throttle lever and a travel speed lever but all directions are on one joystick. It's a 96 or so
to john deere man..you said "Who's to say the D8 will be cheaper??" and I said (read above again).
I doubt CAT is worried about John Deere trying to get into the D8T class of machines.
If Cat had come out with this I'm sure it would be the best thing since a pocket on a shirt. As for resale , the Deere machines that are hydro now have a relatively high resale comparable to the almighty. I looked at a 650H when I bought my D39 , It had double the hours and was 10k $ higher in price. To me price depends on what a person is willing to pay. A for previous hydro machines , Case a good one in the 1550, they really never took off. Very nimble. I ran one a short period compared to a D6D it was on par. I do know the one I speak of had an issue , the owner repaired it his self , did not do what Case recommended as far as flushing the system. It failed again in 200 hrs. I think it was powered by the 8.3 cummins.
I would imagine that the fist ones out of the gate will have a few issues, but they will work the bugs out I'm sure. I can see them selling quite a few. I remember all the folks saying the 850Cs would never sell, and basing their comments on the old 850s and 850Bs. Looks like they've been pretty well accepted at this point. I know it took a while to get there, but they've pretty much proved they will work, and they will sell. I'm really looking forward to seeing how well they actually do, and what they change with time.
With Cat going down the electric road with the D 7E it will be interesting to see if that takes off in other size machines, they say there is something like 60% less moving parts, better fuel economy and diesel electric drive has been around for yrs in railway Locos and has proven itself in them. Will be interesting to see!!!.
"A for previous hydro machines , Case a good one in the 1550, they really never took off. Very nimble. I ran one a short period compared to a D6D it was on par. " I have run across quite a few Case machines in my career as an operator and have been impressed by their courage to try new things but not in their execution.It seems like they can get fancy with their separate track drives and all that but having good balance goes right over their head.I think by putting an oversize blade on their dozers implies that they can use that big blade effectively and the consumer thinks that they must be a great machine or it wouldn't be there.I personally never got comfortable with the jerking that occurs while steering when working close to structures when spreading topsoil or putting in a road base. Their backhoes are very good and some of their later 4digit model number track hoes are excellent but they were built by Sumitomo as were Link-Belt and are very nice to run.The Case loaders are ok too but they articulate from the wrong end.....I mean,what were they thinking?Hough carried that ball for a long time and they originated it to be sure.The biggest Case dozer I ever ran was an 1150 but it was the old style,I have run some of the newer ones but face it,I have been spoiled.LOL.Just for reference,I thought the D6D was a little nose heavy too.Ron G
All I've run is case dozers so I don't really know any better lol. I own a 850k case dozer and so far it's been great, don't know why case seems to be bashed all the time,
All I've run is case dozers so I don't really know any better lol. I own a 850k case dozer and so far it's been great,
In other words give some info, not just a blank statement.
I seem to remember some juice drive Deere dozers built in the late to mid seventies. The complaints then were that they got hot fast in any kind of hard pushing. They went back to the iron drives and later on when the pumps and motors improved they brought them back out. I've worked on plenty of iron drives from Cat, Komatsu International and even Deere or two. From what I've seen the juice drives are great in small dozers because they aren't running a blade full for 200 to 400 feet straight down and backing back up a slope. I have seen those motors and pumps get real hot when they get some wear and slippage in them and it doesn't take much crap in the oil to cause that. The cost to repair a shot gunned component in a juice drive will likely cause a total loss on the machine. So to speak in a general way about the possible problems with a juice drive of that size I would say that contamination and heat are going to be the maintenance issues to be very cognizant of. I'm betting that tractor will requires some very expensive hydraulic and transmission oil filters. I would guess it will have an oversized cooling system, especially when worked in long steep slot dozing with heavy ripping that that size of machine will be expected to accomplish. I would be interested in what kind of access is available for working on the pumps and motors. What is is going to take to remove the final drives? I would want to know what kind of electronic system I have to work with and whether or not I'm expected to pay licensing to have access to the software. Who makes the undercarriage and how much does it cost to replace it when worn out? What should I expect for life out of the blade and costs for working the ripper? Does the factory run an exchange program for the major components? I think the juice drives work at least as well or better than the iron drives in certain situations. Building logging roads would likely be a very good use for this machine. I like it when someone wants to try something new but it will take time to prove out this machine. I will be leery of it for a couple of years before I recommend someone try it with out certain factory guarantees of operation and cost per unit moved.
A hydrostatic machine is ok as long as you keep it clean and sealed. One blown hose running the system out of oil will usually shorten it's life dramatically. I know a lot of operators who won't stop until the machine stops. Then if the guy changing the hose gets dirt in the high pressure loop you will really have problems. I've seen some pretty ugly oil and contaminants in a power shift with no problems.
Deere posted a brochure with more info and pictures of the 1050K http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/html/brochures/publication.html?id=33ec90e8
We have a 5 year old 1050J and it has been a good machine. This next summer we are going to order a new 1050K. Being all John Deere the K should be even better.
If deere really wants this to take off and they think they think they can compete with the D8 all they have to do is.......Put as many as they can afford into there dealers rental departments and subsidize the rent to be 10% cheaper than a D8 and get them out there to prove they can be as reliable and be serviced as good as a D8. 90% of contractors would eat this kind of marketing up in a heart beat!!! It is not tough to find how many 90K dozers are sold or rented each year and they could easily decide they wanted to have 10% or more of that market and dump that many dozers into there dealer rental inventories until they were back ordered for a year then wa-la instant market share in a short time.......no risk no reward................TIO
that's the best way to get a salesman pushing a new fangled piece of iron to go away it tell them to bring it to me 20% cheaper than the proven models or I will pay the same price as proven models but..... they have to service and repair it for 10,000Hrs and supply a loaner when it's down. For some reason all of a sudden they don't have as much faith in their new machine as they did when they were trying to sell it to me at list price and soon disappear Liebherr was the last one.( oh we are coming in this market we are are your new dealer we are going to sell a lot of machines in your market). my question was how are you going to do that when you are 10% higher than every body else and I have those prices bought and financed on those machines right there bought in the last 6 months .and buy the way how many times have I heard this from your manufacture over the last 30years. haven't seen him since
I talked to a Kiewit service manager back in the late 90's about some 5130 cat excavators they had bought new, they had so many problems with them cat had provided a second machine for each they bought new so they always had one to run! Curious if this was after a lawsuit or did cat just take responsibility?... TIO
isn't Kiewit the largest single private owner of cat equipment in the world I think that would help even with CAT:thumbsup