We had this discussion yesterday. One person claimed that scrapers are becoming obsolete - that excavators and six wheel drive off-road trucks are taking over most of the work once done by scrapers. Come to think of it, the highway construction projects around here are using lots of excavators and the new fangled dumpers to move dirt from borrow pits and for longer distances. Scraper numbers may be down. Will this trend continue, in your opinion? Or will there always be a place for scrapers?
It depends on the conditions. If it is wet or rocky I think excavator and back dumps are more efficient. I think on a site conducive to them scrapers can be more productive.
There is no cheaper way to move dirt given the right conditions, scrapers are not dieing, in fact Caterpillar up to the time the GFC kicked in were very, very actively promoting them again and had been making big inroads into a lot of areas. We are assisting them with setting up VIMS on them and simulators are among other things some initiatives that are going on to bring them more up to speed with the technologies around them.
I wouldn't think that scrapers will disappear until the jobs they accomplish disappear. There are many societal issues going on right now that limit the number and type of jobs where they fit the business plan. Mining and road building is where they shine and the number of new mines or super large road building projects has dried up in the States. While there is much talk of stimulus by putting money in huge infrastructure projects, most of what I have seen is really corporate welfare. I have seen no money assigned to the kinds of projects that fit the use of a scraper fleet. Scraper fleets require a huge support structure to support their operation. Multiple push cats, graders and leveling dozers are required not to mention a team of mechanincs to keep all this iron running. Initial capital costs for scrapers is huge. I would imagine a good used 631G would run $300,000 to $500,000 to purchase and a new one getting close to the million dollar mark. While a loader and articulated truck might run that much for new, you have greater flexibility in the types and number of jobs you can accomplish with them. Probably the biggest issue now with scrapers has to do with the green movement. I've looked at many 25 year and older units that could be put to work with a week of repair and get ready. But those old engines belched huge amounts of fuel soot into the air and went through fuel like we drink water. Society will just not accept the pollution that is readily visible every time one starts up. Companies are being limited in how much they can use machinery with non conforming engines. Yes, scrapers are the most cost effective way to move huge amounts of dirt and yes there will be jobs for them in the future when the right circumstances come along that provides sufficient profit for their use. For now, most of the companies that I am familier with, are purchasing the types of gear that is more flexible in the types of projects it can do.
So will these be phased out in apprenticeship training programs you guys think?
I doubt scrapers would be phased out of apprenticeship programs. They still have a place. Unfortunately, in most areas, the good scraper ground is gone. Not only that, the type of development that they are best suited for is not really being done right now. Right now most of the work going on in the area is small sites, usually wet, and sometimes used as a dirt dump before. One of the current sites I am working is an acre and a half site. It used to be a wooded lot. Top that off, it is 2 feet below the county drainage ditch. The jobs in big farm fields that will be developed into malls/shopping centers will return eventually. Around here these jobs cover major acreage, and usually have no more than 3 feet of cut/fills. Pretty good work to do with a scraper vs a hoe/truck.
Scrapers (or pans as we often call them around here) are very productive at stripping topsoil from large areas.
Scrapers are not perfect but they one require one operator per machine in optimal conditions to load, carry and fill. That gives them a nitch in the excavating game. why bring in 4 trucks, an excavator, and a dozer when you can do it with 1 dozer and 4 pans?
I don't think they will ever be obsolete, they are just too efficient at certain jobs. The cost of new and used Cat scrapers has had the greatest impact on their use, I think, especially for the smaller companies. The small contractor cannot go to an equipment dealer and look at the scrapers for sale. Lines of used excavators, dozers, trucks, but no scrapers. Most used Cat motor scrapers demand a premium, don't depreciate as other machines do, and are often sold privately especially when times are normal, and never make it to an auction or dealer. The big jobs are disappearing, that hasn't helped. The perception that scrapers have got to fly has limited the operators life on one and increased operating costs. A Cat scraper is a complicated machine. The cost, diversity, and availability of excavators out there has made every contractor use them for earth moving, whether it's cheaper per yard or not. Just my opinion, Phil
There is one contractor I know of in Massachusetts who has them, there is no real scraper or big dozer work now, but those scrapers can move some dirt. I wouldn't say its a dieing breed, just on hibernation till the economy picks up and some big dirt needs to be moved.
i'm a huge fan of scrapers they are what i started out on i don't have a problem with trucks in the right condition but i still like scrapers the only thing anymore is finding the guys to set in the seat not just a lever puller but someone who can actually cut grade all day long and make teh fill look like something not someone who is only lookin for a paycheck dirt moving equipment is'nt goin obsolite it's the operator thats goin away almost anybody can pull a lever to make a bed dump not everyone can set down a bowl and get a load and make it look good at the end of the day
I like scrapers and always will, they are the best for moving large amounts of fill. I'm in Florida and a lot of contractors do use the excavator and off-road trucks. I like using them cause they can strip off the unsuitables faster than anything else, but like Ronnie said its hard to find operators that can run these machines and not sit there and say that their back hurts and their neck is sore from turning around all day.
Most everyone here has gone to pull pans with big John Deere Ag. tractors. The old scraper market is dieing it's just the facts. You have who Cat and Terex who sell new scrapers. Remember Cat is a master at marketing so if you have a product with little competition it's not hard to focus time, money and effort in area's of the world that still call for that application. We some times forget these Manufactures are world wide, not just the US.
I wish I could get a shot at a seat in a scraper, my butt hurts sitting in this office, my butt would feel nice in a scraper
every machine has its place.around 50 miles from where I live the is a rather large new road being built by Mashuda contractors the fleet of newer scraper is huge at least 25 big scrapers and maybe 10 all terrain dump trucks when it comes to moving Dirt in wisc they know how to due it.when driving by we didnt have a camera but what a site Double D10s pushing my guess the scrapers were moving much more material or they wont be using them I will try to get a photo when setting in a bunch what a site thanks the BiG D
There's nothing like open bowl scrapers and push cats to get the real dirt moved. The wannabe farm scrapers are good for keeping up the haul roads :cool2
You said it DPete:notworthy
Is that Borgaard? I haven't heard of them getting jobs here in CT lately, how's the situation for them up north? In southern New England, there are a few larger contractors that have scrapers, but I haven't seen any at work for at least a year. Those guys also have decent-sized fleets of excavators and ADT's and that's mostly what I've been seeing at work. Manafort couldn't even find a place for their pans on the Route 72 project. In a lot of areas in our region, there may be a couple of feet of good topsoil, but underneath that is rock, obviously not prime scraper material and better suited for ADT/excavator work. I wouldn't consider them obsolete, just that work has dried up around here for them.
Dpete you said but it's not the machine thats going out it's the operator not all scraper operators are gone there some still around but thr younger generation needs things to be like a video game with a/c they coukd never stand an old 31c with an open cab when your hot and your shirt is soaked with sweet and dust equals mud oh yeah those were the days and if thats not enough the heat from the motor was enough to make you pass out you could'nt hear a train commin at the end of the day but they don't know what it's like to come off a mtn. haulin a%% cross a busy hwy. with traffic stopped just to make it up the other side nothin like a big scraper crew with the nuckle heads weeded out and everybody workin as a team scrapers will live it's the operator who is dying
Yep you are right Ronnie and Cat are going the same way with scrapers as with most model lines, creating simulators. Sure they don't emulate the bumps and all those other good things you just described but with the art of scraper operating becoming even less popular yet the application for the machine out there is still vibrant it is the best they can come up with. We have the first simulators released coming down under to support the biggest scraper operator on the east coast of Australia and they view it as a positive step and will help them in there future business.
I love the bumps and the heat of scrapers. It gives you the feeling that you are working in the same conditions that past generations worked in.
We moved 3.5 million yards of red river clay on the Winnipeg floodway a few years ago, 8 motor scrapers and about 10 D8's + 463's. and we never once had a "leveling" cat on our dump piles. Good operators and everyone was on the same page, 2 D9G's push loaded them all. The 4 "Wiggle" wagons however had a D7G or 8K working with them 24 hours a day.
Yeah Borgaard, I haven't seen or heard of them other than they have no work. All the big dirt work up here is dried up. No big condo communities, big office buildings. There will be on big site job in Waltham where I live, but its all ledge. Other than that all the big guys are hurting. Who else do you know of that has scrapers up this way?
Our company uses a lot of them but we also have a lot of ADT's. Like many have said it depends on the type of earth moving.
Scrapers are not becoming obsolete, scraper operators, and honest contractors are.
I agree totally with you Show. As simple as it seems to operate a scraper, it seems that is the hardest to train and get new operators to understand. I also see it with our company it is hard to find good push dozer operators. I see to many times cut slopes started in the middle or bottom of a cut. I also see a lot of slopes undercut or cut vertically. It makes it hard on the D6's to keep track of the fill and then have to come back up to fix they're problems.
Scraper Operators There seems to be a lot of mystique operating a scraper, as compared to other yellow iron. What's up with that? What is so distinguishing about it?
I think scrapers have less work involved.... don't need something knocking down piles or loading sometimes.... AT'S you have to load & knock piles down & maintain haul road... scraper hands can pan their own haul roads if needed. AT's can't stock pile.... now a scraper can stack it to the moon They all have there place.... sometimes you wonder why are we using AT's or vise versa. Heck I have even loaded scrapers with a hoe pull pans cause the most work.."hole diggers" they gouge because the drivers don't pay attention for the most part... 2 pans together is even worse, they dump piles that don't over lap, For the most part they all require a machine on both ends ... for the push , or finishing.... I would rather see a scraper on the job. less work on fills... hit it with a blade.. then let the roller do it's thing.
We load scrapers with trackhoes all the time, nothing unusual about that!
This idea keeps going around like an annual flu shot. I remember having the discussion in Peoria at Cat corporate offices in the 1970's. Scrapers have lost some market share with the advent of large haul trucks, loaders and excavators. But no matter what, for a contractor already equipped, there is no quicker nor cheaper way to move dirt.
Hi Wolf, Most anybody can learn to herd a scraper down the road but a real skilled operator is a pleasure to watch. Especially 637s and 657s. They cut and fill in a continuous manner and keep the cut and fill smooth enough for a pickup. They will also just about climb a tree in steep country. Most of the scraper operators I have known have to much pride to turn in a shabby job.
my modo for scrapers are HEART BEAT IN A SEAT a trained monkey can learn to cut and fill all u need is a good lead scraper d6 to finnish and a 16 or a 24 to get the finnishing done Please dont take it as a poke at scraper oporators but its just the way things seem to be going , I have rarely met a person that i can train in a couple weeks to make sompthing look decent on a scraper, so instead i use a good dozer and blade to make up and pay dummies off the street to move the dirt. if u find some good oporators let me know
Pretty hard to expect new guys off the street to learn the trade in a couple of weeks. As with pretty much all equipment there is a pretty steep learning curve in running a buggy. You should remember that once upon a time you were one of those "dummies" off the street. The only way to get good operators is to spend the time with them to get them to that point. We all know that not everyone is cut out for the job but if you find a kid who shows up on time and is eager to work, with patience you'll have an operator. It's time well spent. I can thank my Dad and a couple of excellent foremen for having the patience to teach me the basics and then let me learn the ropes. Hopefully there are more men like that who will help the next generation of operators attain a decent skill level.
Wheel tractor scrapers will never become obsolete. They fill a niche in earthmoving that no other machine can compete with. For short distance bulk earthmoving they’re lower cost and faster than any other haulage unit. Over the last few years ADT’s have become popular in the United States. Contractors leaned heavily towards utilizing ADT’s largely due to the fact they require no skill from the operators who run them. The reason that contractors have leaned this way is due, in my opinion, because the operators in this industry have drastically changed over the last 40 years. In the 1960’s and 1970’s, during the heyday of big dirt when large scale infrastructure and other projects in the US involved tremendous quantities of earth to be moved, this industry held a class of operators who possessed true skill as scraper, dozer and blade hands. The scraper hands (and other operators) you had at that time were overall, much more skilled than we have today. At that time, operators were able to spend enough time in the seat of a scraper, on large earthmoving projects to really see that the learning curve on a scraper isn’t nearly as flat as “scraper operators” these days think it is. Take Deeretime’s above post as an example; too young and too inexperienced to know what scrapers are capable of, therefore a false conclusion is drawn about what is needed and required of a scraper hand. Twenty to thirty years ago, you were dealing with an era of operators and supervisors who actually knew how to run a scraper spread. Bladehands who actually knew how to work with and ahead of the scrapers they were supporting. Dozer hands who knew how to support a scraper cut and push-cat hands who knew how to properly run a cut. Dirt bosses of that time didn’t earn a seat in a pickup because they just graduated as construction managers or hired on as P.E. interns. They spent time as operators and grade setters and worked their way into the position as a dirt boss once they’d earned it. These days it’s a rare case that a crew running a scraper spread consists of anyone who has multi-millions of cubic yards of material under their belt supervising scrapers. This lack of experience has lead to improperly running the operation, which has directly fostered the widespread negative attitude towards scrapers. It’s damn hard to fill the seat of a scraper with an operator who doesn’t have a lot of bad habits developed from running scraper for a company/crew/dirt boss who didn’t know what they were doing. It’s getting even harder to find operators who know how to properly support scrapers. I’ve hired blade operators who were excellent finish hands. But when they’re put on a blade to work with/ahead of a spread of scrapers they can mess things up and do more harm than no grader at all in short order. This is largely stemmed from being able to find a lot of operators who’ve not been around scrapers, or operators who didn’t get a chance to be around the “old school” of operators and dirt bosses who knew how to actually run scraper spreads. It doesn’t take long before enough of these factors, bad operators, rough haul roads, poorly run jobs, etc., that contractors started leaning heavily towards ADT’s. Scrapers by nature move material fast, and it takes a skilled crew and supervision to build cuts and fills with scrapers that don’t get over cut or over filled, which leads to a lot of expensive time spent fixing the mistakes made by the poor operators and supervisors. With ADT’s, things move much more slowly and in a controlled manner that allows any idiot to build things correctly. This factor compounds itself by creating a whole lot of scraper operators these days that, without any other way of putting it, don’t deserve the title of operator. So, as scrapers get a bad reputation because it takes skill and experience that most of today’s “dirt bosses” do not have or have the ability to train, the market is ripe for any easier way out, which has been via ADT’s. It’s even to the point where CAT/dealers are having to publish memo’s to educate contractors that ADT’s are not “rock trucks,” as contractors are utilizing ADT’s in rocky material and conditions suited for rigid frame trucks, where the ADT has become the cure-all answer for dumbass earthmoving. So talking about the wheel tractor scraper becoming an obsolete machine is asinine. It will always fill a role that no other machine can. The change in their utilization is because without the class of true operators that this industry used to have, you will never see scrapers utilized in the same manner, or nearly as efficiently as they once were.
I agree with Mass-X about how (with some contractors not all) some of the younger foremen and superintendents don't know much about pans (scrapers) and what the machines are capable of, and where it's productive to use them.
Couldn't have said it better myself Mass-X. I've experienced both the old and the new.......
about 5 years ago... a boss tells me to set toe stakes for one side of a ditch... which was going to be about 4' deep with 10' bottom and several hundred feet long... I then go back to removing trees.... the boss comes on the radio screaming.... they had just cut the center out... instead of the center slope slope center...... I suppose that if he had stayed on the job instead of hitting all the garage sales.. I had to go and pull the slope into the middle... then they kinda started over.. They have a few good scraper hands....
Mass-X You are so right in your comments terexkerry
The problem with Scrapers is wet working because they have to trail through their work and over spoil heaps and fill then rain stops play a little to often. With truck and shovel if the work is kept tight there is no problem with wet working. Scapers realy need virgen land to work in, truck and shovels can cope with any thing with a decent haul road
I learned the same way u did im 20 and im running our under ground spread, i have moved alot of dirt with buggies and adt's but the thing is that un like u and i, people jst want to sit and not be challenged or take pride in their work there for they wont get any better or worse than a heart beat in the seat, when and if i find a guy that is ambitious i will take him and invest my time and his on a dozer, hoe or blade sompthing that is more technical than gouging and filling. this way buggie oporators are trained in a couple weeks and are disposible !!! if they dont show up. Sorry to say but its a sad sad world for construction companies and oporators Every one on this fourm is a dying breed :beatsme
Yes, I understand what you're saying. I meet lots of guys asking me where they can get on out in Alberta and make the big money. When I ask them what they operate they will say they can drive a truck or a farm tractor or some such thing. Most people have no concept of the skill level required to be a good operator. Those that manage to sneak onto a seat find that it is very challenging, probably more than they can handle. These are the guys that leave a mess for a few good operators to clean up and rush off for their cheques, the only thing that matters to them. Like you I can't understand where people can go onto a job and not have pride in the finished product. It kills me to see the sloppy work left by some people. I built base for streets and parking lots for years. I expected my base to look exactly like the paved product would be like, minus the black! I think it's the culture now. At one time all the older operators demanded excellence from the young guys. Now management comes from an office somewhere and some CET is running the job. There aren't the grizzled old foremen with years of knowledge mixed with a bit patience and a touch of nastiness...lol..! All I know for sure that I've solved all these issues more than once with a bunch of friends a a few bottles of very dark rum!
yea i think u and i r on the same page, the only thing is that u have to be good to do civil work i havent had a big dollar pipeliner come and impress me yet the only thing the pach was good for was wrecking more guys than it made. Hopefuly this depression weeds out the crappy contractors and the wanna be oporators that can only bail dirt.
Your bang on Mass X no two ways about it, my biggest customer has just won a 6 million bcm road job which has 70 m cuts and fills and they are mobilising 16 x 651E, 10 x 637G, 6 x D11R and all the rest of the gear that goes with it. Rest assured some pics will come and this would be the most decent scraper job on the east coast of AU in many years.
Wheres that job at Gav.
Bruce Highway, Gympie in QLD Martin. 1/2 hour from Noosa
Although I haven't worked much this year..when I do go to work I arrive with the attitude that I haven't learned it all yet. I work with a lot of guys younger than me who have the attitude that they know it all and don't need to learn any more. I've been on a 627 roughly 14 out of the last 17 years, and I know I don't know everything! I sure hope this lousy economy turns around so I don't fall out of practice with what I DO know how to do! I hope someday to work for someone who will teach me GPS so I don't become a dinosaur. I get frustrated not knowing more than I do...I guess that makes me a rare breed nowadays. Alan627b , currently unemployed in Nebraska...
Being a newbie to the trade, having wasted my money on one of those scam-schools, and for the last 2 days having to operate a 615, I'll jump in here with my .02 worth. First the schools just show you the very basic mechanics and techniques of operating machinery. How to do simple flat, level cuts, maybe picking up a wind-row, then dumping flat level and straight. Well yesterday went fine, as that's about what I was to do. Pick up wind-rows from the motorgrader. This was not finish-grade stuff, just building a haul road. However today proved to be a great learning day. Our haul-road is through a soybean field, at the bottom of a hill. We have areas that seem to have no bottom. So we laid down some mesh bridging material. This started by a tin-whistle we put in. You went up and over this tube, and just on the other side is where the mat was laid down. I was to dump between the tube and material. I had never heard of being able to dump while turning. Lucky for me another co-worker was able to explain how this was done. Not as easy as it sounds, especially when you have a narrow road, with beans on either side that can not be driven in. I finally managed, after having to back a couple of times so as not to run over and crush the tube, and about tipping the bowl over the edge. Next while picking up material I managed to stick the scraper, on a slope. I tried what was shown to me in the school to free the machine. However it was just digging in deeper. I stopped before I went too far and got my co-worker that had a lot of experience. Learned something new again. I knew coming into this trade that I only knew how to make them go. I cuss myself more than any super or co-worker, because I'm a perfectionist. Just in the last couple of days, while cutting, when I see small dips or gouges I get upset with myself, and start thinking on how to avoid that. Enough with the "me" stuff.. How about the OJT, that one might get? I've been put on a machine that I've never heard of or run, and just told in about 30 secs how to run it, and then be expected to operate like a 30yr veteran operator. It also seems that there is a fear of being replaced attitude with the veteran operators. Some just don't want to provide any tips or help, ie; share their years of experience, when asked. Instead they just want to cuss you because you're not doing it how they would do it, or laugh at how dumb you look trying. I guess they were experts when they first put their butt in the seats, and probably were made fun of too....Better stop with this here, I could go on a rant with this... On most highway and larger projects around here, I still see several various sized scrapers being used. From the little paddle-wheel scrapers to the larger push-pulls, to the pull-pans. So I really don't think that they are becoming obsolete. They just have the ability to move dirt quicker and more efficiently... GPS... The company I'm working for, uses GPS, however only if the crew your on is lucky enough to get to use it for grade checking. The only machines that have any GPS setup are a motorgrader and a dozer. GPS is very expensive and with the current economy, this may be a tool that smaller companies will not be able to afford. It's not 100% perfect, it can mess up due to the surroundings, or just like any computer decide it's not going to work. Consider yourself lucky that you really don't need this. Seat of the pants beats GPS hands down.
All right, another guy from the Midwest...I know a great Cat Guy from south of the Wichita area. What part are you from? I know what you mean about being hurled in the seat with a bare minimum of instruction, and having to take grief from the "pros". They learned the hard way and expect you to also. Business as usual.... Don't sweat it, bite your lip and listen...but still realise you aren't there to take take grief from someone with an attitude. Litttle humps and dips won't hurt anything, most little paddlewheels don't have the guts to load perfectly in anything but "sugar dirt". As long as they're gone at quitting time, or if rain threatens, you are ok. Learn to make things smooth, it will make your own day go much easier, as well as everyone else's, even if they don't appreciate it! Glad to have you with us. Alan627b
627 Alan Sorry you are still unemployed Alan. The season is getting close to coming to an end for scrapers in Nebraska. I don't know of any big dirt jobs around Omaha. Seems like the poor economy is just starting to hit in the Midwest. We are not slow but we are not months out like this spring. There is some companies out there just bidding jobs to get some cash flow. We lost a big job to a company that bid what the material cost just to have cash flow. They are from Ohio, poor company to do business with and had not had a job in six months. The Pipe Line Crew crosses under Hwy. 30 last week so that job seem on time. ADM in Columbus is/was looking for workers?? I know it would be a drive but it would be a job. Call if I can help in any way. Ron
Your bang on Mass X no two ways about it, my biggest customer has just won a 6 million bcm road job which has 70 m cuts and fills and they are mobilising 16 x 651E, 10 x 637G, 6 x D11R and all the rest of the gear that goes with it. Rest assured some pics will come and this would be the most decent scraper job on the east coast of AU in many years. Thats an ideal scraper job it all jst depends what is in those cuts and what the terrain is like ! but if u mobilised a couple 1200's and fifteen 777's or 785's do u not think that they could compete? maybe not quite as fast but the thing i like about trucks is that as soon as its cut its finnished and i think that u can run that whole set up cheaper per m3 than u can run 51's and 57's Our small 350d's can cut and fill for 1.62 per m3 I know its not on the same scale but i thing that it would still be cheaper!
Deeretime, apparently all other bids were with trucks and diggers yet this contractor won the tender by preaching the virtues of scrapers to the client, they have run scrapers for a long time and know them well and what they can do, shame there are not a few more around that would back themselves like that instead of taking the easy way out. Sure there is some rock in the job and they will dispatch a fleet of 50 ton trucks, maybe 8 but the job will be shaped to work as a scraper operation. A key element with Australian road authorities is fill specifications and with a scraper you can just do big fills so much easier than when you come a long and dump a big 150 ton pile of dirt you then need a D10 to knock out. The scraper has dirt on the move to the fill as soon as the cutting edge hits the ground to be loaded and spreads it on the fill so neat the 825 just has to tidy it up and you are done, you just dont get that with trucks because the dirt stops and starts it,s movement to the final product so many times this is where the cost comes into it, tipping a load off a waste pile no question the truck is king but big roadworks and bulk dirt in construction the scraper rules when the material is right.
Been working the Ft. Riley and Manhattan area. We completed a few bigger jobs in Ft. Riley. Now we're getting ready to start the second phase of an airport taxiway/runway job. Most of the jobs we've been working are due to the "Obama bucks". The company I work for is Smoky Hill LLC based in Salina. I commute once a week from the eastern part of the state, staying in a motel during the work week. Talking with my super just the other day about projects and bidding. He told me that there are more and more bidders showing up at bid lettings, and that they are submitting extremely low bids just to get the jobs. On our current job, on one part we were beat by another contractor by a mere $300. So there are 2 contractors working this small airport.
Ex, I know what you mean, the local contractors around here have more competition for bids and lose to out of state contractors. And yet local goverments are always talking about keeping Nebraska money in Nebraska... maybe they should have built a casino in Omaha when it would have made sense to do so! Oops, too late...and now we have a 30 million dollar cable stay footbridge from downtown to an empty lot in Iowa...and we're getting a 60 miilion dollar ballpark that will be used mainly for 3 weeks a year (College World Series)..and another 40 million dollar stadium in my county so the Omaha Royals have a place to play. Meanwhile, they city is going broke because they need to upgrade the city's 100 year old sewer system, which may require building a 3 mile long underground cavern to trap storm runoff, which normally empties into the sewage system during heavy rain, which pollutes the Missouri river. maybe they should have built this first? Doh! You'd think there would be more work with all this construction, but it has been going to out of town and non-union contractors, and seeing as I'm a union operator, it doesn't help me much. Could also be that union dirt work will become a thing of the past here in Nebraska before too long. The outfit I worked for was the last big union dirt contractor in town, and it's iffy whether they will survive, partly due to slow work and partly to poor management. Things are bleak right now. Might have to take a "regular" job for the first time in almost 20 years. Alan627b
Reckon I might have to go and have a look at the Bruce highway job when it gets going as its only 30ks up the road from home. One of our diesel fitters at work lives within walking distance to it so keeps us posted as to the goings on. If things slow down to much more in the civil side in these parts , might have to think about trying for a job , done 40yrs on dozers,scrapers, graders, excavators and all the bits in between.
the scraper will be around they are a versitle machine
Alan, have you looked at working for Vrana or Hawkins? Neither are union but I have heard good things about both companies. And seeing with the amount of years you have put in with the IUOE I wouldnt see why Hawkins wouldnt hire you on the spot. Thier benefits package is supposed to be pretty good too. Its something im looking into if the IUOE doesnt work out good for me down here. Gotta make money one way or another. good luck to you, I hope you get work soon.
At the moment, both Hawkins and Vrana are laying people off..it's that slow around here. And winter is upon us, it's in the 40's this week and we've had snow twice in the last three days. About 3 weeks earlier than usual this year, and the forecast is for a warmer than usual winter this year, which may or may not bring more snow. Yay. Negus and Sons are supposed to be filing for re-organization, and I'm thinking that if they do survive , they will probably come back as non-union. If that happens, it will probably be the end of union dirt work in eastern Nebraska, since they are/were the last big contractor with union affiliation in Omaha, and the smaller oufits won't stand alone. Our local is kind of odd, it is basically divided into heavy highway (dirt) and building trades (construction) contractors. Hawkins doesn't do their own dirt work on a large scale, they own no scrapers ans do what earth moving they do with hoes and trucks. Or sub the dirt work to other contractors. Vrana is primarily a bridge and road paving outfit. I have primarily been a scraper operator for 12 out of the last 16 years, and done quite a lot of "seat time" on compactors and wheel tractors, with lesser degrees of experience on dozers and loaders, graders etc. I have done finish work, but don't consider myself a finish hand, at least by the definition other contractors probably would. it might just be my personality, level of confidence or just plain opinion, but I think I'd have to learn more about grade checking and plan knowledge to be a real finish hand. Better eyesight couldn'[t hurt either, I can't see a tenth at a thousand yards like some guys I work with! LOL! We'll just have to see what the future brings. Alan
Wow im glad you told me that! It would have sucked to move up there just to be in a worse situation. well its like anything, things have to get better eventually. What about Kiewit, they contract out IUOE dont they? I mean I realize that they are just headquartered out of omaha and probably dont do alot of work but I figured they might win or bid on alot of projects there. Does 571 cover the whole state? It is 571 right? its a bummer work is so short right now :/
Bigiron, Kiewit does a lot of construction work around here, but they usualy contract out the big dirt work on their projects. As far as building work goes, I think they are doing pretty well at the moment. They won the contract to build the new Sarpy county baseball stadium the Royals will play in, and I think they are doing the stadium downtown as well. Local 571 primarily covers the eastern part of the state, and they have agreements as far as pipeline work goes. 234 covers Iowa. McArdle Grading out of Elkhorn got the dirt on the Sarpy stadium project, and from what I hear they will really ahve to bust a hump to get the required dirt moved by years end. Possibly double shifts. If nothing else, it might give me some good photo opportunities! They have a bunch of 621's and 627's, and a lot of trucks. Too bad they are non-union, although the way things are, that might not stop me from applying. I have to look out for #1, and that's me, not the hall. Hope nobody gets PO'ed about that, but that's the truth. After all, they have had 9 months to put me somewhere, and it hasn't happened. I'm not alone, I'm sure. Just slowly going broke, that's all. alan627b
They are building a stadium in sarpy county? haha when I was growing up there wasnt much going on in Sarpy county. I used to live out off of highway 80 down the road from the Flying J truck stop in Gretna. It used to be quite a commute to omaha but hell now omaha is making its way to lincoln. Id love to see some photos of the project if you get down there to take some! And I hear you 100% about looking out for #1. I dont blame you one bit. Its all about financial survival now.
The new stadium is on the north side of highway 370 around 132nd street. Omaha extends at least to 214th street, since they annexed Elkhorn a couple of years ago. To the disgust of most Elkhorn residents. I went out to the stadium site and they had 10 627's and 4 or 5 621G's and the support equipment already there, they already had been stripping, but the rain has put a hold on work for a day or two. One way or another, I'll get pics.
Does anyone have any idea of what a military Clark 290M rubber tired scraper would be worth? It's about 30 years old and has been kept inside a building for the last 25 years or so. I know someone who has one that may be interested in selling it.
I see one sold in an auction 3/7/2008 - 3/8/2008 In Elk City, Oklahoma for $6,500. I think it was just for the tractor though and probably didn't include the scraper.
Clark 290M Thanks for the quick reply on pricing of the Clark 290M. He doesn't have the scraper. I am seeing around the same price as you $6,500 - $10,000 However I just found this listing and it's just for the engine on EBAY. Can this be correct? Enlarge Big Cam 400hp Cummins for Clark 290M Tractor, rebuilt We can help arrange freight Item condition: Used Time left: 27 days 3 hours (Dec 02, 200915:05:11 PST) Price: US $13,950.00 Buy It NowBuy It NowBuy It Now
I can't say for certain but I don't see that selling anytime soon. I'm a Cat man though so I could be wrong. It's not my area of expertise.
Even if an excavator and truck combo can move more material than a scraper, (which depends on many soil/weather conditions)....the problem... you are employing two operators and using two pieces of machinery to do what one scraper and operator could do. How is that cost effective? The mining industry will be growing alot in the coming years , at least there will be more mines in operation , I think the Scraper has a good future.
The simple fact is there are certain times when nothing can move dirt as cheap as scoops, so while contractors still do the same as they did 30 years ago and bid dirt work it will be the same in 30 years time when they still go and bid dirt work and there will be a certain tool right for each task. The scrapers future is solid, sure the heydays of big dams, interstates, airports etc would seem to be behind us but along come other jobs, heck look at a housing subdivision in California, some of the scraper fleets and earthwork volumes for those jobs are incredible. I have just assembled the first commercially available Cat scraper simulator for a customer in Australia and it is incredible the realism it has and will be a fantastic tool for training operators and goes to show the faith put in the scraper by this particular customer and what part they will continue to play in the future. Go to https://www.catsimulators.com/p-130-wheel-tractor-scraper-simulator.aspx to see the unit. The features of this unit are absolutely 100% accurate without the bounce!!!
not even think the scraper will be unique in its kind
I was really shocked years ago when John Deere stopped building scrapers. I was told that John Deere was betting on the 6 wheel drive dump trucks and excavators becoming the next big thing. In a lot of applications they do work great. But for precise grading, nothing beats a good scraper!
Deere was never a big factor in the scraper market anyway in my opinion. The small paddle wheel machine is comparable to the CAt 613 series and is limited in where it can go with the chains and paddles. In other words don't put them in the rock. As long as there is money to be made with scrapers around here they won't be obsolete with me.
Go the Scrapers They will be far from obsolete. Most of the irrigation development earthworks done around here throughout the 70's and 80's (northern NSW Australia) were done with scrapers. Elevating types were preferred and their use grew from 11yd3 up to 23 and 33yd3 machines as the seasons became drier, enabling the 'black soil' to carry larger capacity machinery. Similarly, in city subdivisions, as areas developed became drier, the use of 6 wheel drive dump trucks were replaced by scrapers. One machine doing the job of four, load carry spread and compact In the optimum conditions, nothing will out do a scraper, whether it be a twin power, single engine OB or elevator Cheers Russ Dresser A450E Wabco 101F