The median weekly earnings for construction workers in the U.S. last year was $1,000 for union members and just $624 for non-union workers, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. It especially pays if you're a UNION Operating Engineer! Members of the International Union of Operating Engineers Local 302 are earning $42.14 to $47.09 an hour right now in Washington state, and $41.08 to $48.20 an hour in Alaska. Plus, they’re getting: Time-and-a-half after 8 hours and on Saturdays Best pension in the business Family health, dental and vision Regular wage and benefit increases You’re doing the work. Make sure you get paid! Heavy construction equipment operators just like you are making more money, getting better benefits, and earning their retirement security. All because they have a union contract! You owe it to yourself -- and to your family -- to make sure you are getting the wages, benefits and respect you deserve. Forget about whatever you’ve heard or been told about why you shouldn’t join a union. Decide for yourself!
You are right, union pays better, no doubt about that. Time and a half after 8 hours? Not always true, that depends on the contract with the company you are working for. In 324 it is common that the contract is set up on 4-10 hour days, that means no OT until after 10 hours, or until friday. Your health and pension are only as good as those running the program. Look at some of the iron hanger unions right now. A lot of them dont have a pension or healthcare program that looks too good. You only add to those when you are working too. Good thing I dont put all my faith in a union. If so, I would have only worked 4 months last year. I show up early, take care of my machine, and go home late. The way i see it, if you are looking for someone to take care of you, you might as well just sign up for welfare.
Unions do provide a much better pay scale and working environment. Right to work states still get by somehow providing the same scale of quality work on public works projects as unions do but the people are paid much less. The choice of unionizing for those paid less in right to work states isn't there at all.
Our news head lines Government set to tell unions of huge cuts in public pay bill MARK HENNESSY, Political Correspondent THE MAJORITY of the €2 billion that must be cut from exchequer spending this year will have to come from pay cuts for civil and public servants, unions will be told by the Government next week. Meanwhile, a public service union leader has warned members that the International Monetary Fund could be brought in if the Government cannot cut borrowing and bring the State’s finances back under control. What do you think? well at least I have a job all be it a poorly paid one. Stock
:jerry :jerry Do we have a smiley with a ticking time BOMB I think I can see a fuse................. burning
Okay. I want to ask you a question then. Are you are registered Democrat, or Republican?
Thats neither here nor there, the union tells us who to vote for :stirthepot:
Which are which,fine gael or fianna fail ?
That's a No-Brainer for me, Union Membership is Mandatory here. Seniorty is a big part of this Union, Guy's who have time in can sit back and relax while other's are just waiting for there lay-off papers. It dont matter if you can turn water into wine ..... Your History .....
Define "evil" i see religion as evil ....but thats me .. theres probably no God --so just relax and enjoy your life... Anyway ...Union contracts are responsable for also inrceasing the wages and benifits of the non-union sector... sure you get $30 bucks on your check and i get $27..but my package is in excess of $44 dollars.. im currently with 721 when i was with 793 i got double time be-fore 7am and after 4pm .gaurnteed 8 hours even if i get called in at 2pm and still get double time after 4pm ..weekends and all holidays ,double time ..100% benifits ,,and my pension hourly was just a little less than minimum wage for most .... no 8 hours off between start-times ..it was all 2x untill i did..@ straight time i was getting 36.85 /hr... huge coin ..and Chaos always equalls cash !!!!
are unions evil. NO. but in the end its how the union works to protect the interest of the industry and with foresight to keeping their workers employed that makes the difference. The Teamsters seem to have forgotten this when the new CA emissions regulations came about. They were behind them 100% not giving to shats what this would do to the economy and the trucking industry of California. where as the Operating Engineers, laborers and the A.G.C. got together to lobby against the new off road emissions regulations to help preserve the construction industry and the jobs that are associated with the industry. unions that look out for the interests of everyone especially their members are a great thing. Short sighted unions that only lookout for how to keep their own self importance over all other things are evil. the only other unions I have had any dealings with are the carpenters and ALOT of dealings with the Ironworkers. I will reserve my judgement on those two for a different time and place
The operators unions are losing power in the east, allbeit slowly, the international brotherhood has had to rescue in a few cases just to keep them running.
As discussed in another thread, there are good unions and bad, one size does not fit all. I personally have had a bad experience in the union, and am not inclined to favor having these heavy equipment forums used to promote unions.
100% agree on that!
must be evil, cause i'm in one
Steve, I'm right there with you. I've been Union and non-Union (no opinion offered here). I prefer this forum to be about Heavy Equipment, and that's it (no disrespect to Bluwenis). After all, this is "HeavyEquipmentForums", nothing else, please.
While I agree with the view that Bluwenis' shameless promotion of unions would be better served being posted in the other thread... I can't say that I agree with the esteemed Founder's :notworthy dogma that this forum shouldn't be used to promote unions. Mr. Frazier's own bias towards unions gives the non-union element somewhat of an advantage in this forum, as he yields the ultimate power in shutting down any posts he feels inappropriate. But I will tip my hat to Mr. Frazier for allowing both sides to express their opinions while remaining somewhat neutral, even though it is evident which side he is on. He has been more than fair to date. Having said that: Being equitable doesn't necessarily mean being fair, and the correct thing to do would be to implement a policy banning the discussion for BOTH sides - those that promote and those that condemn. I'm a member of an electrical code forum that bans discussions pertaining to union or non-union, and the forum is excellent. Discussions are limited to the forum's intent - the common passion for correct installation of electrical equipment and electrical troubleshooting. Heavy Equipment Forums is daily becoming more and more popular, and the union/non-union issue is definitely inherent to this industry. I, with my limited clairvoyance (ok, ok...educated guess), see this forum being quickly overrun with heated debates about a matter that really has no relevance in regards to this community's devoted design - The celebration and lamentation of all things equipment related. Cat or Komatsu, union or non. They're arguments based on personal experience and environment, and the arguments are ineffective when based on emotions and not facts. I'm not stating that both sides don't have their factual merits. But I am stating that those posts are few compared to those based on knee-jerk reactions to seeing "union" or "non-union." You want to promote your union? Then make your avatar an advertisement of your union's bug. Want to rejoice in your standard of living without union representation? Then make your avatar an advertisement of the company that treats you so well. Self-employed? Then make your avatar your company logo. I do appreciate and understand the views posted by both sides (with a few exceptions for uneducated, shoot-from-the-hip posts), and I have my own biases regarding the subject. But I'm not here to tell somebody else how to live or how to work, regardless of my bias. But I will tell you which equipment you should definitely be operating...
We live in a country were we are are permitted to have an opinion one way or another. Everyone is going to have a different opinion. This could be a topic that could get out of control in a blink of an eye.SO before anyone posts please consider that these posts on this thread are all based on opinion.(refering to pro/con union). Now with that said.... I have always been a share holder of the family business and because of that I never worked for the union. From what little I know, at this time I would not utilize the union for employees. I have worked on jobs that were union and have seen production grind to a hault because some one is standing there saying " I am not a laborer,I am not a mason,I am not a carpenter,I am not an operator,etc. Thats what I saw about the union that i didnt like. The way I look at it is if I sign your check and I want you to play paddie cake before lunch time then thats whats going to happen. NOT EVERYTHING IS FAIR.............JUST MY OPINION
Ill play paddy cake, but you have to pay me operators scale. I have no problem with doing what needs to be done. Ive done this before. When I worked in OR IUOE 701. I was hired as an operator, but when I started we were stripping out an office building. Some of this was skid steer work, some of this hand work, or working off of a manlift. The only point I had a problem was when the laborers were running skid steer all day and I was running a shovel. But can you really blame someone for that? Thats like telling a guy hes CEO but he is doing the CFOs job wile the CFO is doing the CEOs job
I have worked on jobs that were union and have seen production grind to a hault because some one is standing there saying " I am not a laborer,I am not a mason,I am not a carpenter,I am not an operator,etc Me to ! If asked i well assist if the crew is short handed..and i know them ...all..not just one. I have been in that position....On a union job ..I run equipment..Period...I will not touch another Trades tools, or infringe upon another locals scope of work ...Thats bad JU JU...no worse than stealling from a blind man ..
They are good and bad but need a balance on both sides of union vs. contractor. Corrupt unions suck but there are crooks in everything. In the masonry business I have a 138 Operating Engineers book for the Lulls. Only problem is if I am not on the job I cannot afford to pay an OE on a small job with 4-5 bricklayers. The cost would be prohibitive at over 90 per hour and 9 hours per day I am required to pay them. They get 8 straight and 1/2 hour grease time at double time. Bricklayers only work 7 hours so it makes the cost go through the roof. It makes my union masonry business uncompetive to non-union companies. If I have 4 bricklayers the OE would work an hour or less per day. I know some parts of the country they have combination engineers and laborer book or the laborer does it with his book and no OE is required. Problem is in NY with prevailing wage laws they are weakly enforced unless they labor department gets a complaint. Unions can price themselves out of the business although they have had a strangle hold on road work on Long Island for years and years. The Union has taken a big beating in NYC area and it will get worse as times get tighter.
Thanks, activeorpassive, for that lengthy and well thought out post on the question of whether to even discuss the "union/non-union" question. It's a tough issue for the staff here to play referee on, as it does have a high potential to become inflamed, and we too all have our own set of experiences that we bring along with us. The fact that we haven't yet added the issue to the same sort of "this is off-limits" forum policies that politics is in, is a testament to the trust we have in our members to be able to have discussions in a mature and civil manner, and to know when to disengage and "agree to disagree". That having been said, I hope that all members, both long-time and newcomers, remain aware that that sort of trust only holds up until it's breached. If it comes to pass that change seems appropriate, we'll do what we need to do to keep things running smoothly.
Open ended This topic may yield info pertinent to the continuation or demise of operators unions. The voice of the people is important to those in power. These forums provide just that.
A slightly different perspective here. I've been a union member for just over 32 years , the last 25 in the mining industry. I know unions have good and bad sides, not evil. I won't go into who does what, when, where or why. Everyone who works and probably some who don't have the unions to thank for a lot of conditions and benefits that they work under and receive every day and don't realise it. Going back to the early days of coal mining in the 1920-30s it was the unions that got bathhouses on site, every work place has one now. There were no age limits, young boys of early teens worked to help support familys, sometimes because their father had been killed in the mine, and old men in their 70s worked under ground until they died because there were no pensions or any other benifits to support them if they didn't work. Unions started pension funds to support these old men so they could retire and live out their last few years without working. So age limits on entering and leaving the workforce and pensions were introduced. The pensions came about by just a few of the blokes collecting a few shillings to help out an old fellow who couldn't work anymore. 8 hour days is another one fought for and won by the unions. We're going backwards on that one lol, I know a lot of places 8 hour shifts don't work and other arrangments are aggred to. A lot of safety rules were fought for and won by the unions, even though the are run by goverment now. I and most union members have money deducted each pay to support nominated child welfare groups and rescue helicopters or other services, some which would not even exist otherwise. A lot of what we take for granted, pensions, superannuation, age limits, retirement age, hours of work, safety ect. came to be by union action. There will be some who will say I have my own retirement fund, I work my own hours, I'll look after my own safety, I'll work it out with the boss my self, thats good if you can, thats their choice but what about the new starter, maybe female, that can't or doesn't know whats what. Or that these things would have came about anyway, society would have demanded it anyway. Like it or not the unions are a part of that society. Just have a think about your wages and conditions and would it have been better, worse or the same without unions.
Please don't look at that as a promotion for unionism, it's not, the first sentence is what it's about.
For me the local 3 is good, I am on the waiting list for the Apprenticeship program. For me there really seems to be no other way into operating. I called every place I could find, & as soon as they herd I had no exp. I got laughed at, hung up on, & got the look of "why the hell you wanna do this".
...just a follow up, When I applied, they said there is a 3 year waiting period, So I can't wait!!! I have been the ground guy quite a bit, but seems there is always someone that had been around longer, so they got the seat time. Very frustrating for me.
I've seen some companies that work very well with the unions. It is usually in construction where the general contractor doesn't have the means or want to go through the screening process of finding and hiring a competant work force. The local operating engineers is an example of that type of symbiotic relationship. Where I have real problems is the stationary locals for shops and such. In these cases the unions are acting only as agents for the employees. In my experience I made a much better negotiator for myself than the local agent. My barganing power lay in my ability to make money for the company. The union only made sure that whatever extra income I produced was used to hide the dead weight in other parts of the employee base. The last part of the union arguement that I have is in the handling of the pension funds. I lost a bunch of years because of time out of service. I came back in and vested and now I find out the pension fund is stressed and may not be solvent when I am ready for retirement. So my advice for anyone looking at a union job is to go in with your eyes wide open and make sure all your questions are answered before you pack your lunch pail. It might be the best job you will ever get. Then again it also might be something else entirely.
Hey John C. I'm right there with you on the pension fund, that's the part that irks my nerves! I vested with 11 yrs in the Operating Engineers, took a withdrawl in '96, had $32,000 and change in pension fund. Anyone want to guess what it will be when I retire and begin to draw on it??? Here's a hint: $32,000 and some change! I doesn't earn even one copper penny of growth, at least, for me. But I can guarantee that money that came out of my check is invested in something that earns interest. Just not for me/us.
Some states, the operators do a lot better than others. In Arizona, plain operators are only in the 22-25 dollar an hour range. Operators here no longer have a real pension plan, only a 401k for newer hands. So guess what? This week the plan sends me a letter stating that they have lost a ton of money in the market and in their funds. Like who hasn't you know? My account here is way down fer sure. But so is my local 3 account. I wouldn't be too surprised to see an attempt in this congress to overturn Davis-Bacon, with a shove by the administration as they try to stretch their bucks to get people employed and paying taxes. I think that would not be too bad if they don't get out of hand and demand that we work as cheap as the Chinese, like they are practically demanding of the UAW autoworkers. On the other hand, union organizing may become a little easier. We'll see. Like Steve, I've had some bad experiences with some unions and locals, on the other hand, I've also had some good luck with certain others. A lot depends on the lads running the locals.