Looking through the machinery classifieds there seems to be quite a few asv CTL for sale round the 2500-3000 hr mark. Most have undercarridges needing replacement. Is the support very poor for these machines? or are they not standing up to the real punishment?? I have read else where that it costs three arms two legs and a mortgage on the house to replace all the track components, are they just a throw away item?
Guys who run ASV seem to love them and they seem to be able to go threw more stuff then any other track machine. Their big down fall seems to be the short life of the track system and the insane price to rebuild them. If you are really interested in one, I would get a full quote on replacement and figure that in with purchase price to see if it is a good deal. There is a pretty healthy aftermarket for the track sysem as these machines. Take what I say with a grain of salt, I have very little personal experince with these, more of what I know is from talking to guys who run them.
ASV's are really more of what is refered to as a "MTL", no problem with support in my experience. Realistically, they are a light/medium duty machine that excells in mud, hillsides, steep grades, a great grading machine. No, they do not stand up to real punishment, and if ran in this manner they will cost you "real" money. Complete undercarriages are available, at quite a savings. My per hour opperating costs on both machines for the undercarriages has been quite reasonble, $5 per hour for the undercarriage alone. Abused, the cost per hour will soar.
I havent owned one myself but A good friend of mine used his for daily work , cost him $9300 to rebuild the roller and tracks so you need to buy a machine cheap if it needs a bottom
I have found them to be just as good as anything else out on the market. In my experience with both Bobcat tracks and my RC50 tracks I have found the ASV tracks to last longer and offer more flexibility. I personally think the whole premise of the undercarriages being extremely high cost was simply driven by other OEMs without any basis in fact because they simply didn't know what they were talking about. I can purchase an entire undercarriage kit for my machine from my local dealer for $6500. This includes every single idler and bogie wheel (plus hardware), two fully assembled sprockets, and a set of tracks. Worst case cost would be $6.50 per hour if I replaced everything every 1,000 hours. The kit for their biggest 100hp brush cutting machine sells for less than $9,500 and it has 48 wheels, bigger tracks and larger sprockets. I don't blame the other OEMs for trying to say it cost too much....after all, they can't talk about being narrower, having more ground clearance, having suspension, being faster, causing less surface damage, working in snow effectively, having better weight to hp ratios, using load sensing hydraulics, more hyd flow and hp, etc. All in pretty much the same packages....if you can't fix it...feature it
Didn't Terex purchase ASV? Doesn't CAT and a few other's use the ASV designed Multi-Terrain Loader track system? I would think if CAT chose ASV tracks for their own MTL's it speaks volumes to the quality of the system. I personally haven't owned or operated one but have heard nothing but good about them. Taking into consideration that an MTL does not share the same robustness as a CTL when making a purchase decision should not lead to buyers remorse. Purchasing the appropriate machine for the intended task is key to machine longevity. Never choose a hammer to do a screwdrivers work... :nono
Sorry, Seamac, it doesn't. Cat MTL's chew up that ASV system and Cat charge more for the parts. It's frightening how fast it wears out on Cats, in moderate going you'll not see much over 1000 hrs, any rocks and it's much less.
What is it, a machine weight or balance issue? Like I said, I've never owned or operated an ASV but have spent time in a CAT 257 without any track related issues although it operated mostly on compacted shell rock. Good info to know though, if I ever were to consider purchasing my own MTL, thanks...
This is gonna sound stupid, but what does "MTL" stand for?
No such thing as a stupid question. M ulti T errain L oader as opposed to a C ompact T rack L oader.
Don't honestly know, Seamac.The balance is good, I wonder if the Cats put more power down and the tracks aren't up to it, or maybe it's types of application. I know one we're running was stockpiling and loading soil and it went right through a set in under 1000 hrs. Perhaps an owner-op would get more life. However, Cat aren't struck on the system and are pushing the CTL's more.
A local contractor out here gets 500 hours before the undercarriage needs a total rebuild on their 257B... mostly working in hard clay, they're hard on it though i think. their undercarriage cost per hour is like $20 or more, there's no way that machine makes any money for them... they really shouldn't have an MTL
ASV's were popular here in my neighborhood when they first came out, a lot of farmers bought them, some contractors as well, I've run all the rubber tracked skid steers, when you compare them to rubber tired skid steers, the dollars per hour climb considerably. I'd call them a fad for this area, as one told me, everyone needed one until they got it, then they couldn't get rid of them fast enough. I know quite a few mechanics that work on them, none of them have much good to say about them. There must have been somewhere between 30-50 of them in my neighborhood when they came out, there are none left, most all were traded on rubber tired skid steers after only a short time. A lot of the owners told me that unless you absolutely need one don't buy one. I hear all the complaints and the list is pretty long, if your in an area where it freezes during the winter, good luck running one, depending on what you plan to do with it and who runs it will determine just how high priced the upkeep is on one, I've heard most all the horror stories of the repair costs there has been associated with them, maintenance is also an intense ordeal, especially when its frozen out or in severe mud, the cat versions seem to cause even more problems than the asv's, not sure if its the power put to the tracks or not, but those tear the drive lugs off the tracks more than the asv's, idlers cause considerable grief, as does the terrain that you use them on. I've run them all, to use them they are not bad, but I'm glad I don't have to pay to repair them and keep them going, all my customers that had one, provided us with one to use when we needed a skid steer on site to use instead of bringing in our own skid steer, several owners told me that it costs about 100 bucks ever time you turn the key on, I don't know of any that claimed to get over 1000 hours on a set of tracks, most are under 500 hours, usually due to some failure or drive lugs torn off or tracks stretched to render them useless. I've seen them with the undercarriage snapped clean off and laying on their sides, with locked up idler wheels, worn idlers with tracks spit off, tracks torn up, stretched tracks, drive lugs missing on belts, frozen solid track components, blown drive motor hoses which I've helped to fix, a job you only volunteer to do once. A new machine would be nice to own, a used one, depending on who had it and how it was operated, I'll pass, someone else can have the fun. I've also noticed over the years, that with tracks you can get a lot further into the mud than with a rubber tired machine, I've seen them so far in and then sank that only to top of the rops stuck out, whereas the rubber tired machines would have never got far enough into the mud to worry about, not sure if its a bragging point or not. We've run them side by side with a rubber tired machine and for some reason they won't climb a hill as steep as a rubber tired machine will loaded, they stall out or spin the drive lugs in the tracks, I'm told thats how you stretch the tracks out, not sure if its true or not. I've been called in to retrieve so many of them that I've lost count, they are heavy and will float over soft terrain up to a point, then they sink like a rock and by then most can't be pulled out, they are like most tracked machines and when the tracks sink, your done moving anywhere and since the front of the tracks are not too high and when loaded the weight is on the front idlers more and causes them to sink pretty fast, this is an observation and also what owners told me over the years. I've also been told that when they bog down in the mud, they don't have the ability to pull themselves out and will stall the tracks or rip the drive lugs off the belts, I've run one that did just that, I can't say I was impressed with the performance of them, on dry ground or just soft ground they work fine, in mud I'd opt for something else. With the hours on the used ones you mentioned I'd never buy one with a run out undercarriage, the repairs might exceed the value of the machine. I'd also talk to the local repair people that actually work on them, and also price the undercarriage components and figure about half the life of what anyone tells you to expect to get, especially if you've never been around the rubber tracked machines before. There are a lot of variables to determine track life, most are where you plan to use them the rest is who is running the machine, nobody will ever tell you there is such a thing as how to extend the life of the tracks, only what shortens the life of them, a big point to keep in mind. I have no idea what your planning on using one for, but I'd talk to plenty of people that have owned one and also still have one before ever buying one, if a rubber tired machine will do the jobs your wanting to do, buy one of those instead and hire someone will a rubber tracked machine for the jobs that a tired machine won't do, otherwise best of luck. I'm not trying to put down any machine and I hope the asv lovers here don't take my post as an attack in any way, its just observations and also what owners have told me over the years from my area and how they were used, I'm sure there is plenty of people who think the world of the machines and in their applications they might be just that.
Out here CTLs (Not MTLs) are worth their weight in gold, you see tons of CTLs on jobsites, they are taking over a lot of the jobs that used to be performed by: -skip loaders -skid steers -small dozers and track loaders (like 933s and D3s) -tractor backhoes But we have very wet sticky clay here and when it rains there is no way you are working with a skid steer. I have done jobs with my T190 that I couldn't even dream of doing with my S185. They do have their disadvantages over skid steers, but a lot of us are willing to take those disadvantages. I was thinking about spending 3 grand on nu-air style tires for my S185 (I get so many flat tires it is ridiculous! I almost need to have two spares on hand at all times!) but now I just figure I should just get another CTL and never worry about tires ever again. Even working on pavement the wear on the tracks doesn't seem bad (pretty much same as tires as far as I can tell.) And 3 grand for nu-air tires is a lot more than a set of tracks on the T190. (You can get a good set of tracks for $1600) And on snow removal I almost preferred the T190, we have the bar style tracks on it and they're great.
CAT used ASV on there first MTL's, they have gone away from their system now. In my opinion it's total garbage, track changes are very difficult compared to the new systems, and the torsion axles like to sag and bend after a while.
Randy88...I don't see your comments as an attack in any way; however, as a current ASV owner in the Northern US, and a former Bobcat salesman who sold against the ASV machines for over 8 years I can't say that I've had or seen anywhere near the same experiences you've described. I'd put the reliability of my machine against any Bobcat CTL I ever sold, and a lot of salesmen I worked with(and still hunt and fish with) that are still selling Bobcats and other brands would be hard pressed to echo your observations, although I don't think they'd defend the ASV product as hard as I will. Once again, I can buy an entire undercarriage kit for right at $6500 and the most expensive kit for the 100hp ASV machine is less than $10k so I can't see the argument for the costs you've seen, at least from my perspective. I do very much agree with your advice to the gentleman to talk to current ASV owners such as myself and others.
I can say with absolute 100% certainty that CAT is still actively using the ASV undercarriage due to the fact that I still see truck loads of undercarriages heading down I94 on their way to the CAT factory in NC.
I own a 257b and i concur with everything above. My dealer has a bunch of asv machines on rent and they have had decent success with those. But they only run the 45HP machines. They are much lighter than the 257b with the identical undercarriage. I have been told that the asv undercarriage performs better on the lighter applications. Its only when Cat started using it on heavier machines that the system fell apart. All the horror stories are true. I put $5000 into mine at 500hrs. Owner operator, mostly used for moving stuff around the farm yard. The repairs will kill you. But my customers love it cuz i can travel all over their lawn and not leave a mark.
The Cat/ASV marriage was a disaster. Cat took an ASV undercarraige, grafted an oversized skid steer on to it, and the end result was very shortened life of tracks. A 257 B3 weighs over 8000 pounds, a pt 60 around 6400. Thats adding 25% more weight to the undercarriage. So yeah, things are going to fail quicker. Torsion axles will break, sag and bend, but it is unfair to condemn ASV's track system when Cat overloaded the undercarriage. Track changes are no harder than a ctl, but in 2000 hrs+ on ASV's I have never thrown a track. My TL 130 threw tracks all to often. My last set of tracks got 1700 hrs on them. Randy makes a great point, if a wheeled machine will do the job well, go that route.
Watglen ...you make a good point that the CAT machines are much heavier than the ASV machines. Your 257 is almost a ton heavier than my RC50 and your machine has most of it's weight distributed toward the rear of the machine. It makes big difference. You should look into buying you undercarriage components from a Terex dealer. Like I said, I can buy an entire undercarriage kit for $1500 less than you spent on repairs...the kit includes every roller in the undercarriage, the hardware to put them on, two fully assembled sprockets and a set of tracks.
Are you sure they are for skid steers? are they badged ASV? no new skid steers have any ASV markings.... IF they are ASV good on them the new product is decent, now if only you could grease the bogies and idlers we'd all be laughing.
Yes. If you look at the CAT part number and then look 180 degrees to the other side of the bogie wheel you will see the ASV part number. The bogies and idlers are all using metal face seals now, just like dozers and excavators. They no longer need to be greased or filled with oil after they are assembled.
The Thompson Cat dealer in Oxford Alabama has a rental store well stocked with MTL's. New ones show up every day it seems. I've operated most of the tracked machines and I like em all compared to shoveling lol. I'm really interested in running one of the ASV/TEREX machines, partly because my dad worked for Terex for 20 years way back when they were all puke green and big as a house. He worked at some plant in a suburb of Cleveland Ohio, Brooklyn I think. Got a picture of me and dad standing in front of a Titan tire. In fact, it was Terex that spawned my love of heavy equipment. Hope to find a chance to operate one at a H.E. EXPO if I can find one in the S.E., SORRY for the high jack, we now return you to your scheduled programming....