Hi all, I'm attempting to get a Cat 3013C that's been sitting for ~5 years running again. I've got it turning over, but won't start. Looking through the forums seems like a common issue. So far I've: 1) Drained fuel tanks and filled with fresh fuel with seafoam 2) Replaced batteries and a bad starter 3) Replaced glow plugs and verified circuit and plugs 4) Primed fuel filter and fuel pump My guess at this point is potentially a fuel delivery issue, but I get fuel coming out of the fuel filter vent and fuel pump banjo as expected when priming so that side looks good. I hear the fuel solenoid click when I turn the key to run so I think that's good. What's the best way to verify I have good pressure on the high side of the fuel pump? I read the old thread: HeavyEquipmentForums and someone suggested pulling an injector to check if it's spraying. Makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how to just pull one injector on this engine since it looks like all hard lines from the fuel pump to the injectors. Any thoughts or ideas for next steps here are greatly appreciated!
Any chance of a full S/N to help look for info on SIS? The only machines I'm seeing a 3013C in are some vibratory compactors then there are a couple industrial engines. You posted this in the Skid Steer forum so does that mean it is in a skid steer? Just as a first step below is attached the priming procedure I'm finding just to be sure you have it right. When cranking over and not starting is there any smoke out the exhaust? If not smoke I would think you are not getting fuel to the injectors. I'd expect a bit of white smoke while cranking. You say you replaced the glow plugs, have you confirmed you are getting good voltage to them? You could remove the fuel lines from the injection pump to the injectors and see if any fuel is coming out the pump while cranking. Might not be much but a little squirt from each one in the firing order would be encouraging! Also attaching a test procedure for the transfer pump, now you don't really need that fancy test set up they show just a pressure gauge that will read the pressure the say you should have. Of course that assumes you have the mechanical pump I see some use an electric pump. If it is the mechanical pump some of those have a screw holding the top on and there might be a screen under that cover the line hooks to.
Thanks for the reply. This is on an industrial zero turn mower. Posting here since I've seen other posts on this engine here. Glow plugs are definitely working. They're brand new and I've pulled them and verified they all glow when the glow switch is on. Zero smoke coming out of the exhaust which is what makes me think fuel delivery issue at or after the injector pump. I've haven't found much info on the CAT 3013C, but as I understand it this is basically a Perkins 403D-15 and I've found these handy manuals that I am following: Perkins 403D-15 Operation and Maintenance Manual: http://www.hardydiesel.com/diesel-generators/dl/Perkins-400D-Owners-manual.pdf Perkins 403D-15 Testing and Adjusting Manual: https://www.absolutegenerators.com/...e_System_Operations_Testing_and_Adjusting.pdf As I understand it, since there's a transfer pump on this engine, there's no hand priming pump on this thing. I've followed the priming procedure for an engine with a transfer pump as described in the docs and that seems ok. I get fuel from the filter vent and injector pump vent as expected. It's just me working on this thing so I even added a remote start switch so I can close the vents while the engine is cranking just to make extra sure I'm not sucking in air at the vents. I can hear the fuel solenoid click when the ignition is in the run position so think that that's working, but am going to pull it verify for sure. Next I suppose I'll pull the fuel lines from the injectors as you suggest. If I pull the fuels lines and/or injectors are there any seals I'd need to replace at that point? If so, any idea for a source? Thanks again for the help on this one. This has been frustrating, but also a good learning experience as this is the first diesel I've worked on.
Just wondering after I wrote the following, is there a S/N tag on this engine, might give me some better info going from that, just want to be as sure as I can that the info I give is accurate! The lines should not have any seals, nozzles do have a washer/seal down in the head. Attaching the "Install injectors" info. Also attaching the parts break down for the pump and injector line, however I'm not 100% sure it is the one for your engine as your S/N does not show as other than a Vibrating roller engine. Could be they are the same. The "gaskets" as Cat calls the sealing washer at the end of injector are only 88 cents so not a major problem if they are wrong when you pick them up at Cat. I did see a picture of a primer pump, looks like what I would see on an outboard motor fuel line, not sure if your machine has one hide some where. Any chance this is a Ferris Zero Turn? Seems I recall seeing one with a Cat yellow engine parked in the weeds at the local dealer.
This is on a 2006 Hustler Super Z: https://manualzz.com/doc/7532945/hustler-super-z-diesel-parts-manual I'll get the S/N off the engine hopefully this evening or tomorrow. I'm working on this thing on the side and it takes me about an hr to get there as it's currently sitting on a farm. Page 79 of this manual describes the priming procedure for an engine with a transfer pump: http://www.hardydiesel.com/diesel-generators/dl/Perkins-400D-Owners-manual.pdf . That's definitely what this thing has. No hand pump or bulb. Definitely appears to be priming correctly as far as I can tell so that doesn't appear to the issue, but I could be wrong. I see the torque for the injectors in the pages you sent me, but don't see torque for the nuts attaching the fuel lines to pump or injectors. Any idea what these should be torqued to? Thanks again!
Glad to help! Attaching the Remove and install for the lines. Thought they were not going to give a torque for the preesure lines but it is down near the bottom of the last page.
Awesome! Thank you!!! I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm getting any fuel out of the injector pump. If I am, then I guess the next steps would be pulling the injectors. Seems unlikely all 3 injectors would be bad and I wouldn't get any smoke, but the thing has been sitting for years so I suppose it's possible. If I do end up pulling the injectors, I might as well do a compression test at that point I would think. I couldn't find any info on the appropriate compression gauge adapter for these engines. Do you have any pointers to one? The last thing I want to do is mangle the injector port threads. Also, I read that it's a good idea to ream the carbon out of the glow plug ports when you replace the plugs, but again couldn't find an appropriate reamer and didn't want to risk mangling the glow plug port threads either. Any pointers for this? Thanks again. I'll keep you posted on progress here and post pics and/or video when I can.
Still looking on the reamer but did find the spec's on compression test, I'll attach the instructions. The only thing is I got a scare when I looked up the adapter the 3013C engine uses to test compression. From one of the papers I sent you I see where the 3013C is also called a C1.5. The price Cat quotes me for the adapter is $308.00. I think I would be checking around if you know any farm mechanics who may work on Perkins might be able to borrow one.
I made it down to our farm briefly this afternoon after work. Just had time to clean the engine up a bit to prep for pulling the fuel lines hopefully later this weekend. The serial number of engine is: 31301905 Looking forward to finding out soon if I'm getting anything out the fuel pump. Will keep you posted. Thanks again!
You can see how easy it is to just remove all the fuel lines completely and see if the pumps are pumping. Those 4 bolts remove the pump body, I think you need to remove the shutdown solenoid first though.
You can loosen the inj lines, at pump, to see if you have fuel pumping. If you do, move to injectors, and see if you have it there. Pump is real easy to pull, 4 bolts, remove solenoid, 1 little bugger of a hairpin, to remove pump from rack, to remove the pump. Don't lose or bend up the shim gasket, as that sets the timing...
You guys got this down.. DONT worry about the injectors just yet.. Grab your 17mm wrench & bust open the lines going from the inj. PUMP, TO the injectors.. Loosen/remove them AT the injectors.. Remove the shut off solenoid to the left of the inj. pump.. looks like a small beer can. the silver thing.. NOW try to start it & look for fuel squirting out of the lines AT the injectors.. GOT FUEL?? IF NOT.. reach into the hole where the shut off sol. WAS.. w/ a hook scribe or cut off coat hanger in your case.. lol.. & push or pull slightly on the control rack.. The control rack is what allows the fuel to come out of the inj. pump.. Once you get that freed up.. spin the engine until u get fuel squirting out the lines.. IF it does squirt out.. MAKE SURE they're ALL squirting.. if 2 of the 3 are working, no bueno.. they ALL have to squirt.. but atleast your getting somewhere.. Post back & let us know.
One other thing that lil bustard pump really can squirt, so eye protection is in order, when the lines are offa the pump. Ask me how eye know...
Glad some more have been chiming in on this one. As I have no direct knowledge for the Percapillar engine I flt a bit out of my comfort zone. I even almost passed it by as at first I thought it was a post by someone else who was resurrecting a dead Cat!
Well here's an update. The adventure continues. Not a great day. I removed the fuel lines from the injector pump and no fuel came out as I cranked the engine. I actually saw this as positive since possibly the issue is just a bad solenoid. Sooooo, next I attempted to take off the solenoid to test it, *but* it sheared off in the block as shown below. Major bummer. So now I need a plan of attack to extract the rest of solenoid from the block. Heat probably a bad idea since this is on the fuel pump. So, my current plan it to try penetrant and then an impact wrench with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Alden-8430P-Grabit-Damaged-Extractor/dp/B000H6PM32 I actually don't expect this work as it seems *very* stuck. Any other recommendations on a way to get this thing out?
Remove the washer.. its only there to keep it from weeping engine oil. The threads are "straight".. It should come out w/ your fingers.. or some vice grips.. Don't be afraid to use alittle heat.. NOT the BIG Blue Wrench but a small handheld plumbers bottle, will getcha where ya need to go.. Just keep in mind, theres a small amount of engine oil behind that screw/solenoid.. Take the OIL FILL CAP off & watch for smoke.. THATS an easy fix.. WACK the hellouta it w/ a hammer to loosen it up & go to town..
That's the "strange" {kool} thing about fuel injection Hansen.. The fuel systems are all the same.. I just happen to be fortunate enough in my 30+ years in the game, to have worked on'm all.. Cat NOR Perkins made that fuel system.. its a Zexel, made in Japan.. Kubota{mainly}, Mahindra, Kioti, Bob Cat, MasseyFerg. New Holland, the list goes on & on, use THAT fuel system.. CATaPERK/PerkaPillar just threw their name on it.. & everybody runs when they see that tag.. Even the parts guys say, OH..your gonna have to go to Cat to get THAT information.. & the Cat guys go, OH.. your gonna have to go to Perkins to get THAT information.. Lol & neither one is right.. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the solenoid cost about a Grand thru either one of those guys.?? & you can get it NEW on ebay for about 100.00.. Lol I cant say w/ any certainty that I've ever worked on that machine.?? BUT.. I know THAT fuel system .. doesn't matter who's name is on it..
Digressing here .......... but it wouldn't be HEF without threads going off-topic. On the lines of what pumpguy has been saying, I recall years ago the outfit I was working at the time for had a fleet of Ford on-highway trucks powered by Perkins V8 motors. One day I asked the supervisor why we bought Perkins parts for the engines (those things got in-framed for fun, we got to the stage where we could almost do one overnight) where everything else was bought from the Ford dealer irrespective of who manufactured it. We made some enquiries and discovered that engine parts in a Ford box were priced at a little over half the cost of the identical parts in a Perkins box so we switched to buying engine parts from Ford just like we did with everything else. Someone commented aftwerwards that Perkins must have an extremely expensive cardboard box supplier.......
I cant say I've ever had to replace one of those solenoids.. BUT they usually have the manuf. part # stamped into it.. & its not Cat or Perkins, hell, its not even Zexel if I remember correctly.. Lol I worked on a New Holland a week or 2 ago & it had THE EXACT SAME set-up.. It was funny, the customer bought 1 NEW injector thru NH & it cost him 165. & change.. I rebuilt ALL 3 of his existing injectors w/ brand new tips for 150.00 total.{50.00 each}. Lol Just goes to show you the cost difference between the middle man & the manuf..
I would call that a successful day.. At least you don't have to wonder if the solenoid is bad.?? If it makes you feel any better.. you could say, YES it DEFINATLY was bad.. cuz it broke when you tried to take it out..{lol} Once you get the threads outa the hole, re-read post #12.. IF you get fuel out of the lines & get the brilliant idea to hook them back up & fire it off.?? REMEMBER.. You have no electric shut off..{key} There IS a manual shut off tho.. the little lever in post #9.. to the right of the steel inj. lines.. The engine will not start, as long as the lines are not hooked up.. Just remember, things CAN go sideways quick with a stuck rack.. have some way to shut the engine down.. Cutting off the air is the quickest.. have a board close by to shove over the intake.. or as my buddy used to do.. cram your belly over it.. Lol.. DONT use anything cloth.. it'll get sucked in.. & your hand will usually only slow it down.. Let us know how it goes..
Try the wax trick, on the stuck threads. Heat to about 500ºF, with a propane or butane torch, while checking with IR thermometer. shut off torch, and grab a hunk of bees-wax, and place against hot metal, as close as possible, and let the wax wick into joint area (like you would solder a pipe). Also have had good luck with left handed drill bits, though I didn't need to do this, when I pulled the solenoid valve on my perkopiller, a coupla years ago... Another thing that helps, with the wax trick, is to tighten, just a little, before you try to loosen. Don't know why, but it has, for me...
The wax does work in a lot of situations.. BUT.. it STINKS & SMOKES to hi heaven.. I used to cus that boy in the shop who just loved to use it.!! "Take that sh*t in the other room".!!! I'd yell.. I'd end up walking out of the room for 10 minutes.. then turn a fan on him.. He never did change his ways, ignorant sob..
So is that Dave Motorhead DIYDave? What caught my attention right off was the Corvair manifolds! And while we are going OT here talking about crazy prices for parts I'm reminded of the Rosco Sweep we had at the quarry. It had a little Cummins B3.3 engine not even sure it is really made by Cummins but it has there name on the tags. Anywho! The alternator quit working on it so for kicks I contacted the dealer we bought the Rosco from to get a price on a new one. They quoted me $1,200, almost asked if that included the Cummins engine it was mounted on! So next I called the local Cummins dealer. They said $562.00. Then I called D&W Diesel who's home base is only a few miles from us and asked about repairing the failed one and was told parts are not available but they could replaces wit an identical brand new Denso alternator for $275.00! I realize people need to make a profit buying and selling things but if I can buy one alternator for $275.00 and I know D&W is making a profit, I may know Doug the D of D&W but they are in it to make money. I'm sure Cummins or Rosco can get a better price than me if they even buy ten at a time so why do the need to try raping people so bad? Got my fingers crossed the OP has some luck getting the rest of that solenoid out.
This engine is not a Cat nor Perkins but a Shibaura with a Perkins fuel filter thrown on it. It was gave good service in little Ford tractors back in the 1980s. You are right about Perkins parts prices.
Are you referring to the Cat 3013C or the Cummins B3.3? I guess I muddied things up a bit with my mention of the alternator story. But figured we need something to occupy ourselves with while the OP does the work we sent him out to do!
So when (hopefully) I get the sheared off solenoid out of the block I should be able to manually test the pump rack somehow, right? What’s the procedure for that? Also, any tips for installing the new solenoid when I get one other than putting removable loctite on the threads this time?
Re-read post # 12.!!! DO NOT put loc-tite on the threads.. the washer will take care of any oil leakage.. You just tighten it up w/ a pair of channel-locks.
The 3 cylinder Perkapillar is the Shibaura design one. The Cummins B3.3 is a strange duck. Nothing like the more common B3.9. I have read it was some kind of joint venture with Komatsu but not sure. It looks very Japanese. I have never seen it under any other label so I don't know where it really came from originally.
That's why I like usin bees wax, er a yankee candle, MMMMMM cinnamon apple! Damn, now I's hungry, agin...
@thepumpguysc Thanks! I had missed your pump trouble shooting steps in post #12. I'm looking forward to finding out soon if it was a bad solenoid and/or a bad rack. Definitely don't want a run away when I get this thing started so I've been keeping a small 2x4 handy to strangle it if necessary. Also, there's a fuel cut off on the tank itself. The new solenoid is on it's way. Anyone have a spec for what this thing should be torqued to when installed? I don't want it to seize in there for the next poor schmuck. Certainly seems like medium (removable) loctite or anti-seize would be a good idea to prevent the new solenoid from seizing to the block like the old one. Why would this not be recommended? Hoping to get back to the barn to work on this thing sometime this week. Will keep y'all posted. Thanks again, everyone!
I have removed and installed several of these solenoids, it is mysterious that this one is siezed because the thread area is in the theoretically oiled area of the crankcase. The copper seal washer is outside the threads. It is the sort of thing that is so simple you don't usually worry about torque. You have a strange problem here.
This thing’s been sitting for many years neglected in a tractor shed so I’ll count my self lucky if this is the only strange problem it has. I had to remove plenty of mud daubers and cobwebs just to get started working on it.
That rack is definitely gonna be stuck..IMO.. Just take your METRIC tools w/ you next time you go & be prepared to pull the pump.. & just how pray-tell, are you going to "torque" it.?? It was made to be hand tightened.. What was the cost of the sol.?? That thing is a 1 wire solenoid, right?? just remember, it has to ground {-} itself to the block.. so be careful w/ anything you put on the threads.. THATS the elect. flow/path.. Anti-seize has been know to disrupt the grounding path..
Well if you want to get all technically Cat does list a spec! But finger tight and a little touch more would be just as good! What's the worst that could happen? A little seeping of oil?
You ruin everything Hansen.. Lol I must be getting my helping mixed up..?? I'm helping another guy on another forum w/ a similar problem.. He has a 1 wire set-up.. but still, anybody ever seen a channel-loc grip, torque set-up?? { I know your going to look} There are some sol. that have a "hex" on the back of'm.. but every time someone uses the hex, the case ends up spinning around.. or the hex turns but the body/threads stay put.. & being "technical" has no place on this site..hahahaha..
The ones I have worked on have the hex right up against the block/pump body so no worry about spinning the solenoid body. I never thought they would build them without the hex. At least that's what I think. I have worked on these on Mitsubishi and Isuzu as well as Perkins (same engine different labels) and Shibaura. I'm pretty sure the Perkins ones all had the hex right next to the threads. Strange.
This one had a hex. I got a wrench on that and then it sheared off. Maybe the last guy really torqued this thing and the copper o ring is stuck to the block and the solenoid. When I pop the washer off *hopefully* extracting what's left of the old solenoid won't be too bad (we'll see). Anyone have a source for a new copper o ring? I'm guessing I'll probably need one when I'm done. New solenoid comes tomorrow and I should be able to make it down to work on this thing again Wednesday evening. The saga continues...
@thepumpguysc New solenoid was $45 ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M8Y7YM8 ). Could have gotten it cheaper, but wanted to make sure it'd arrive before Wednesday. The solenoid's two wire, but point taken that anti-seize could interrupt grounding path for anything grounded to the block. Any idea of likely causes for a stuck rack here? This thing worked before it was left so I'd be surprised if the rack was bent, etc. If I pull the pump, ideally I'd want new seals right? Anyone have an illustration of the internals of the pump? It'd be helpful to see how exactly the rack is supposed to operate. This is the first diesel I've worked on so still learning...
Any copper washer at the auto parts store that even remotely fits should work fine. You can pull the pump and replace without any seals. There is a gasket on the block that is a selective fit height that controls timing but just leave it on the block and it should be fine. There is a single rack that is pushed one way or the other by the throttle and governor to control amount of fuel injected, with a tiny cotter key. Lift the pump slightly off its mounting and look inside and it should become obvious how it all works.
Theres no seal under the pump where it meets the block.. just timing shims.. DONT lose them..!! {Very important.} Your not gonna need a new washer under the solenoid.. unless you destroy the old one.. & even at that, you can pick thru the copper washers at the hardware store.. I would get a gasket scraper, go behind it & pop it away from the block.. even if its just alittle, you can spin it/thread it off then.. The control rack in the pump sticks from old fuel.. it gums up like tar.. You could drop it in a container {coffee can} of carb. cleaner.. & come back the next day & see if its free.
If its not free, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.. cuz THATS a whole nuther ballgame.. & seeing this is your first diesel & you couldn't even unscrew a solenoid.. LOL.. lets take it 1 step at a time..LOL.!!! If you haven't picked it up by now.. I joke ALOT..
Hah! I figured that out and it's all good. I very much appreciate the help!
Maybe thepumpguysc can describe pump/rack operation better than me or point to a link, not finding anything real good on SIS! Best thing I could say is the rack is like a miniature rack and pinion steering box but with a separate pinion for each individual section of the pump, one for each cylinder. Try as I might can not find a breakdown on the pump. The washer/gasket/oring or whatever it called the #2 part in the "Install solenoid" picture above should be available at any Cat dealer if no place else. Cat's part number for it is 153-6412. Being a cheep SOB unless you destroy it getting the remains of the solenoid off I'd just reuse it till you are sure the motor is going to run and then only if there is a leak. To me it looks like it may just be a simple "Dowty Seal" if you are not familiar with them Google is your friend.
Well you said I'd go looking so here is the best I could find! https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html Be sure to look careful at the scale on the wrench it is very tecynically calibrated! Sorry toomany if I'm making light of your troubles but it's too hot outside for me to be doing any productive work!
HOLY SH*T Hansen.!!! that's Hilarious.!! I knew I could count on you..Lol I'm expecting family from NYC this Friday so I'm out cutting grass.. you wanna talk about HOT.. First I had to replace the spindle brgs & change the blades.. no fun.. Now I had to rebuild the carb on the weed wackers & do THAT.. tomorrows another day tho..
I've got another stupid (and easy for you guys) question. What's the spring-loaded lever circled below? Note this is an old pic from before the solenoid sheared off. Still planning on working on this thing again tomorrow.
THAT.. is a MANUAL shut off lever.. it takes the place of the electric sol. Some pieces of equip. aren't electric start/stop but they used the same block.. just plugged off the hole & added a "string"..{pull cable} If you could, can you post a pic of the SIDE of the pump.. it'll help us/you get the pump off.. What I want to know is, if the engine has a "side cover" under the injection pump.. IF IT DOES.. its much easier to get the pump off.. Theres a small notch cut out of the block that you have to hit when your raising the pump.. It allows the rack pin to pass thru.. IF it has a side cover that you can remove, its easier to find the "slot".. Go look up a "Kubota injection pump".. & search around until you find a break down of the pump & engine.. it'll be a lot clearer then.. Theres a lot of pump breakdowns on the web too.. I just don't know how to add a "link"..
Ok. That's what I thought. Can I just use this to manipulate the rack and check if it's stuck vs sticking a pick/hook in the solenoid port? Should I see this move when I get the new solenoid in and it's engaged?
You see those 5 sided bolts on the inj. pump?? They're 5 sided for a reason.. to keep people out.. & the socket costs right at 300.00 & that's for an aftermarket tool.!!! The only reason I know that is, a guy on here asked me that last month.. You'd sh*t if you knew what a "real" socket costs..{my socket} & that my friends is why I make "the big bucks".. Lol.. BUT they can be removed w/ a 2.00 chisel..LOL I DONT recommend it tho.. seriously..
IF you TRY to use the shut off, its gonna break internally & you have to pull the front of the engine apart to get the pieces out.. NOT FUN. not to mention replacing a part that doesn't even get used.. It wont move when you install the new solenoid. I guess you could try, but use a lot of common sense when trying.. it not a strong piece & will break.. I've had to pull the front offa many engines to fix that problem.
Awwwwww But I just wanted to see what was inside before I paid you the big money to repair it....LOL
Lol.. everybody knows>> it costs extra if the customer "helps"..
Got the old solenoid removed unbolted the fuel pump bolts and nuts. When I try to pull the pump cover it won’t go over the top studs. Feels like it’s catching on something. Note: Middle fuel line still connected but not at the injector so it’s not hanging on that. Did I miss a step here? Video below:
Well attached is what Cat says, might need some advice from the pumpguy if that does not work. Probably something simple if you have done a few! Just took a look at the instructions after I posted and the second step is to remove the solenoid. did you say you had installed it? That could be the problem!
I tried manipulating the rack through the solenoid port but nothing’s moving. Wonder if a stuck rack is keeping the pump from coming out. Last thing I want to do is bend the rack trying to take out the pump.
HOLY SH*T DUDE.. READ post # 48 AGAIN..
Look at Hansens pic.. see the notch in the block towards the left of the pump? Its to the right of the stud.
Lets STOP & think about this.. The solenoid PUSHES the rack to the shut off position {right}.. & that's where it lived for a long time.. The slot in the block is to the left.. You have to get the rack to the left inorder for it to come out. Any way you can slide a screwdriver or gasket scraper down the right side & try to push it to the left??
My rack wasn't stuck, but I had a similar problem. Just grind or saw a slot into each of the studs, and back them out, with a screwdriver... once the studs are out, there's much more room...
So I need to move the stuck rack to get the pump off...so I can free up he stuck rack. Arg. At least I can pretty definitively say a stuck rack is why the engine wasn’t starting now. The pump only comes up about 1/4 inch and there’s only about 1/8 inch at best clearance on the side. I sprayed come carb cleaner in where I could but doubt that will do much. I also installed the new solenoid in (low) hopes that operating that a few times would knock the rack free. Of course it didn’t. Definitely going to need to get creative here. I’m done for the night. Hopefully get back to the barn this weekend to get back on it. @DIYDAVE thanks for the idea. Best thing I can think of so far. Anyone else have ideas here? When/if I get this thing out sounds like maybe Chem-dip bath would be a good idea for it, right? Definitely, did the trick cleaning things up when I rebuilt the carb on my old bike. Thanks again everyone for all the help. I’m trying to get this running again for my dad. He’s a tough SOB who just turned 80 and has been uses a rinky dink riding mower to mow several acres in the Texas heat. The Super Z is an industrial beast with a 72” deck so if I get it running will definitely make that go much faster for him and give him a kick.
Woah dragon.. don't cut a slot.. Use the nuts that came off of the studs, double nut them, tighten the nuts up onto one another & use the bottom nut to "unscrew the stud".. I don't know if the studs are your problem but you dam sure don't wanna be cutting anything.. Sorry Dave.. I just watched the vid again.. Dave is probably right.. REMOVE the studs.. that'll give you some hope.. DONT FORGET to take the solenoid back out before you try to raise the pump.!!! Good luck.. you'll get it..
TPG, just for your info, cutting the slot was done as a easy way, for removal, dang studs was too short, on mine to even use a double lock nut, half as thick as a normal nut. After I pulled the studs, I replaced with new, slightly longer studs. IIRR, I was able to push the pump toward the motor enough, to feel the slot, and jiggle upwards, to remove the rack hairpin. Once the studs are out, be careful not to bend up the shim plate, as it will float, loose, on the pump body...
Ok. Got the fuel pump out. Rack is definitely stuck as show below. There is a very slight amount of shimmy that makes me think it’s not stuck on old fuel, but a solid physical component, but just guessing. The engine worked fine last time it was started (years ago) so I’d be surprised if the rack is bent, but I guess stranger things happen. Figuring out how to proceed next.
I would drop the whole thing in a pail of acetone and come back in a couple days and see if it frees up then.
You could "TAP" the end of the rack to see if it'll move.. just don't smash it and be careful not to mushroom the end.. the metal is SOFT..
Planning to leave the pump submerged in cleaner for a bit. Not the external painted parts of course. Are there any rubber/plastic components/seals in the pump that Id need to remove before I dip this thing?
I tried *lightly* tapping the rack, but that didn’t free it. In video below you can see that I can move it slightly but it sounds and feels like it’s hitting something rather than just being gummed up. Also, should I expect the “pistons” on the bottom of the pump to normally be extended? I’d expect them to normally be sprung to be extended (pushed down out of the pump housing a bit) so the engine cams would push them up as the rotate, but just a guess. They aren’t moving very freely either. If I grab the bearing I can pull them down but get some resistance. Hopefully a good carb clean did will improve that.
Ok. After some research I think I better understand the rack operation better now. The rack engages and rotates plungers that have a ring gear. So what I’m seeing is not that the rack itself is stuck at this point but likely one or more of plungers which explains the behavior I’m seeing. So, a good carb cleaner immersion and then carefully manipulating the rack has at least chance of working with one danger of hitting the rack too hard being risking damaging teeth on the plunger and/or rack. Also, a better term for the “pistons” I mentioned above is “cam follower”. I’m still surprised these don’t seem to be sprung, but maybe they’re just stuck. Anyone have a parts diagram of this specific pump?
Your almost home.. your understanding much more now.. Looking at the vid, I see 2 of the PUMPING PLUNGERS are stuck UP.. I can tell because the TAPPETS/ ROLLERS are up in the housing.. The plungers are stuck, which holds/keeps the rack from moving.. Submerse the WHOLE THING.. & your correct, there are springs behind the rollers, pushing them DOWN.. but they cant come down because they're hooked to the plungers that are stuck.. Look at the pump housing BASE/flange.. look to the LEFT of the inlet hole.. see that 5 digit # stamped into the base?? That's a manuf. CODE for the inj. pump assy #.. Post it..
Looking at it again, the # may be elsewhere.. just look around the mounting base.. The 2 digit in the #.. will be the # of cylinders you have..
I did not notice the plungers stuck up. That thing must be really gummed up. Those springs are pretty strong.
That's why I'm a "MASTER" Inj. Pump Rebuilder.. Lol Those little sucker ARE strong.. its amazing how many I see that are broken tho.. The stroke on'm is so small that you'd think its a bad heat treat of something..??
We hear and will obey! Right, Toomanyedwards?
Hah! Definitely! I'm hoping the master will be able to help me get out of this literal jam. ;-) So an overnight carb cleaner dip didn't help. I then got a cheapo ultrasonic cleaner and tried that but that also didn't help. Only effect is the paint has started peeling (as expected) so I'm just going to strip it all off. I got the pump number off the body and found the following schematic. I Removed the cam followers from the bottom of the pump and the fittings from the top to get a better look at what's jammed. What's stuck in each cylinder starts at part 5 on the top to part 52 on the bottom. I'm thinking maybe I can try gently tapping, pulling and/or spinning part 52 and see if I can free up the springs. If that works then I'd think it'd be easier to free up the other parts hopefully. Also, if I do get part 52 loose, looks like I should be prepared for a spring to possibly fly out. Does this make sense as a next step? Any other ideas here?
Just push/TAP down THE CENTER of #5 w/ lots of penetrating oil.. & a SOFT brass drift.. THAT PART IS 2 pieces.. an outer body called the barrel & the inner called the plunger.. TAP down the center{plunger} ALL the parts in those pumps are MATED so keep each cylinder separate.. PAY ATTENTION to which way the cut out is on # 5. if you put it back the opposite way, it wont pump in the run position.. it'll pump in the shut off tho.. NORMALLY I wouldn't help anyone who" had the nerve" to take one of my pumps apart.!! Lol 1 thing to watch out for.. & its VERY IMPORTANT.. IF the "barrel" comes up.. the piece the plunger#5 is riding in.. YOU HAVE TO find the pin that centers it.. theres a slot on the barrel that it rides in.. SOMETIMES the pin "is made into" #30.. SOMETIMES its NOT & it falls out.. THEN your fk'd.
Or just box the whole friggin mess up & send it to me.. I'll be quietly awaiting your request for my address.. lol I forgot to ask.. how did you get the pump OUT.?? Remove the studs?? pry on the rack?? I'm tellin YOU.. all MY secrets.. LOL..
As much as I have the "I'd rather do it myself dam it!" attitude, considering the outcome of a mistake like smacking something too hard or that little pin falling out I would strongly vote for the box it up and send it on an R&R trip to Sunny South Carolina. Hopefully thepumpguysc doesn't have a boat payment coming due so the cost might not be too bad!
hahaha.. nope, no payments here.. EVERYTHING is free & clear.. THATS WHY.. I can keep my costs low.. I floogled the pump guysc 1 time & saw where someone said, "at those prices, he's either not makin any money or he's cutting corners".. I can assure you I'm not cutting any corners.. & I'm not out to make a house{boat} payment.. I'm here TO HELP folks out.. Have you SEEN the cost of a new pump?? a couple thousand.. Do you have any idea how much it would cost this poor {dumb}b*****d to go to a fuel shop?? about 800.00.. & here "I sit" GIVING the rebuild information to him.. who's the poor dumb b*****d now?? LOL "Sometimes" I wonder why I give the info away?? THEN I remember.. More than likely their gonna find it anyway, {from 1 of my old posts} so I might as well help.. & IF it gets to much to handle.. I'm just a mailman away.. I was walking a fella thru one earlier in the week.. I have the pump now.. lol. He beat the bajeezus outta the guts w/ a hammer & punch.. Yeah, SURE, send it to me.. lol
What I find "amazing" is this is his 22 post & He's posting pictures & throwing up links like some kind of computer wiz.. & I have a hard time logging in & pushing "post".... hahaha
Just a word of advice to the OP. I had a similar pump a while back and it was spraying a little bit of fuel out the side while pumping. I bought o-rings for the delivery valves and put them on and it did not fix it. I removed it and sent it to a local shop rather than send it all the way across the country. And while they were competent they were also very busy and it took a long time to get it back. If I had just sent it to TPG in the first place I would have been time and money way ahead.
THAT seems to be the story nowadays.. I KNOW since I left the shop, its an average 3 WEEKS to get a pump back.. & that's for "walk-in's".. Theres NO REASON for that.. except poor time management.. Or the occasional part from Japan..{2 weeks} but that's RARE. MY biggest problem is "travel time".. 2-3 days here, 2-3 days back.. I keep MOST PARTS IN-STOCK, just to avoid the lag & keep the customer going.. { I eat all that cost of carrying the parts} 99% of the time, if I get a pump on a Monday.. you'll have it back on or before the following Monday. That's why I like using USPS.. FREE Saturday delivery.. it might seem like a small thing BUT its just 1 more day that I get to help out a customer.. I'm waiting on a parts delivery right now{USPS}.. so I can get to work & have the pump done & ready for the mail on Monday. To be honest, I have more replaceable parts than the local fuel shop. Lol
And if I'm not mistaken, any good shop should have all the parts for this pump on the shelf normally, there are so many of them out there....
"any good shop"
Latest update: TPG, I’m pretty sure I’m going to be sending this thing to you in box soon when I break something and/or I put it back together and it doesn’t work. So far, at least I’m making progress thanks to you and everyone else gratiously sharing their experience. I tapped out the plunger as you suggested which went smoothly and was able to get the other pieces out no problem. I plan on doing one cylinder at a time so I’ve got the others for reference for the slot position. Also the key appears to be part of the cylinder so I seem ok so far on that part. Next steps for me are: 1) Finish stripping the paint completely on the pump so I don’t foul anything with paint flecks as I reassemble things. 2) One cylinder at a time, punch out the plunger, disassemble and clean the parts and reinstall and oil. Verify parts move freely as expected 3) When all cylinders are reinstalled verify that the rack now moves freely. 4) Reinstall pump and everything else on engine. 5) Attempt to start 6) Uninstall pump and send it to tpc to fix whatever I did wrong (assuming engine hasn’t exploded). ;-) * Swear and/or cry during steps as necessary As to how I got the pump out, there wasn’t enough length left on the studs for me to use the double nut trick so I tried the make a slot trick but the studs were in there so tight that a side of the slot just broke when I tried to back it out vs turning the stud. So I ended up just using vice grips on the studs. Completely mangle the thread on the stud of course, but I’m planning on replacing them with bolts anyway so I can just back them out with a socket if I or someone else needs to take the pump off again.
X2 on what Hansen said. It's gonna be much better to have someone, who has done this before, do the job. That way, there are no such things as flying jesus clips, or assembling wrong. When I had mine done, On my ASV RC 30, nothing was locked up, just a leaky top gasket. I took it to a local diesel injection shop, and their fee was just over $300. Their estimate was $100/hole, and when I got it back, in about a week, I had piece of mind, and none of my dirt, in the pump...
WOW!! I feel so good that my local shop got mine done, so quick! If anyone, in the MD area wants a local shop, that keeps its promises, I'll be happy, to pass on the name, if it ain't stepping on TPG's toes. He certainly needs any support we can five him, just fer answerin all of our dumb questions!
1 more thing & then I'm done.. INSIDE the tappet is a timing shim.. don't loose it & keep it with THAT cylinder.. Daves shop can answer the rest..
I GOT HER RUNNING!!! A sincere thank you to everyone who stuck with me on this one here. A very special thanks to kshansen and thepumpguysc. Definitely couldn't have done it without you guys! The very last issue I had was I couldn't get it reprimed after replacing the fuel filter. This thing has an engine driven transfer pump and the batteries were dying before it was getting anywhere close to primed. I noticed there was a leak at the fuel filter, but couldn't tell where. This has a canister type fuel filter. To get a closer look I removed the bracket that mounts the fuel filter to the block. Then I was able to turn the filter upside down and it was obvious that the top o-ring on the filter was mis-aligned. I fixed that and also installed an inline manual bulb type primer pump so I wouldn't have to worry about the batteries draining again before the transfer pump got the thing primed. After all of that she started right up and sounds great: A few last questions, are there any advantages/disadvantages to the different fuel filter types (canister, screw-on, or element)? I'm considering converting this to use a screw on fuel filter since that'd just be one seal vs the three on the current canister type it has now. Lastly, any tips on prepping this engine for storage (over winter) in the future so I hopefully I won't have to struggle with all this again? Thanks again everyone!
I found the part to convert them, have not done one yet though. HeavyEquipmentForums Is that what you needed? For this style filter? https://www.autoelectricalspares.co.uk/fuel-filter-housing-replaces-cav-5836b320-2516-p.asp
Thank YOU for stickin with it.!!! I hate it when everyone tries their hardest to help someone out & everybodys doing their darndest EXCEPT the guy who posted.. CONGRATS.. As far as the filters go.. its THE FLOW that u need to spec out.. TO BIG a filter & the lift pump cant push/pull the fuel thru & still have enough pressure for the injection pump to use.. PRESSURE AT THE INJ. PUMP INLET is what you NEED.. I think that one needs no more than 10psi. As far as storing.. get a GOOD lubrication additive WITH an algaecide.. & depending how long its gonna be stationary, maybe a fuel stabilizer FOR diesel.. diesel fuel only lasts about a month, then "starts" to separate & varnish.. Schaeffer additives are arguably the best in the market.. Lucas & Stanadyne are ok AND they MAKE injection pumps..
I've heard great things about Schaeffer before too. I had not heard about diesel fuel storage issues like that though. I know gas will varnish horribly if left to sit. We have several tractors at the farm that get used for a short season, and then are regularly left to sit until next year without any storage considerations. The worst we've had to deal with that I can remember are some dead batteries and maybe a flat tire. One tractor routinely gets new filters, but we know the tank has junk in it that has not been addressed. None of the rest have filter issues.
Hadn't thought about an adapter (didn't know they were available). My plan was to just replace the entire filter mount. This is the filter type that it currently has. It's somewhat a PITA to install on my machine as I have access to the engine from the top and I can't see the top seal on the filter when I install it without removing the filter mount from the block. That's why the top seal was misaligned the first time I installed the new filter, but didn't realize it. Not the end of the world to have this type of filter, but am definitely a fan of fewer points of failure (fewer seals). Looks like I could replace the current mount with something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/WVO-BIO-Di...949-Fuel-Filter-Water-Separator-/221670522840 I don't have a water separator on this thing now (that I aware of) so if I put in a mount like this my my thinking is it could potentially be a double upgrade as I'd be able to use spin on filters *and* get water separation (if I use a water separating filter). Just thinking about it right now and have plenty more work to do getting my machine fully running again before I do this upgrade. Now that I have the engine running, the next thing I was going to work on is the hydraulics. This is an industrial zero turn radius mower with hydraulic transmission and electric clutch for the blades. The hydraulics were working last time it ran 5 years ago, but not sure how they're doing now. I didn't see any obvious hydraulic leaks when I started the engine this time, but wasn't really looking yet so we'll see. More adventures...
Glad to hear it running again, too often someone will go on a site get all kinds of help and then never let anyone know if it worked or not. As soon as you get the hydraulics working I'll send you the coordinates to my property so you can give it a good test run, aout 8 acres of mowing should be a good test run. You can do it either before or after you do thepumpguysc's yard!
X2 on what pumpguy says about Diesel additives. I fill the tank, on mine anytime weather can cause metal to sweat, on non vapor barrier floors. I have had good luck, with Power Service Diesel fuel conditioner, (the white can) and also, I like to start mine, at least 1x a month, let it run a little. Mine is in an ASV loader, so its less seasonal, than a mower, but then again, I even start the mowers, on warm days, in the winter...
Do the loaders, skid steers, etc. have drains on their fuel tanks? This thing doesn’t and it would have been handy to have one to drain off water and sediment after it’d been sitting so long. I ended up just siphoning out the old diesel through the fuel line. This thing has dual plastic tanks and I’m thinking about putting drains in them. On the other hand, I don’t want to put an unnecessary hole in the tanks.
Yes, that is the same filter cartridge with a Cat label on it. My idea is to install the adapter setup on the next one I service, I hate those things.
Your existing filter setup has a bottom bowl.. so water would naturally settle there.. I do understand about all the "extra moves" you have to do to get that POS filter installed tho.. That Bio-water filter is fancy.. BUT 71.00 & NO filter?? I think I'd keep looking.?
Reserrecting my Cat/Perkins 3013c also. Oil pump shaft broke from casting in front by nut, or clip on end came off somehow wedging pieces between cover "cradle" of pump eccentric assembly. I had to break the cover to get it off. In the process, lost track of which hole in injection pump control linkage arm the little spring attaches to. Choice of 3. I'm putting it in the furthest back one. Anyone here know if that's correct??
I think this is what you're looking at. Not 100% guaranteed though ..........
Thanks Nige. Where did you find that? Can you post the link with it specifing which engine that diagram is for? I am getting a conflicting diagram in the Perkins 402D-403D-404-D Disassembly and Assembly document.
That's why I said "I think". It's from a Cat Parts Book for 3013C, but without more data I can't say for sure. You say you have a Cat/Perkins 3013C. Post the Cat Serial Number and I'll post the page from the Parts Manual for that particular engine.
C5N01245
Here you go. By Serial Number your engine is actually listed as a C1.5 not a 3013C.
No experience with that engine but to my eye that spring looks a bit over stretched as it is installed in the picture. Did a little more digging and found this picture, would this tell you anything more? Like I said not familiar with that engine but just trying to see what I can find, rainy day and nothing better to do!
Sun shining and 90 degrees here Ken. Thunderstorms forecast for later though ..........
Very frustrating. One diagram is one way, the other is another way. Both engines, whether a c1.5 or 3013c have the same basic linkage system for injector rack control, don't they? The c1.5 diagram is clear as mud. It does not even show the 3rd location on arm for spring.
Remember that what I posted is from a Parts Book, not a Disassembly & Assembly Manual ....... These drawings are the best I can find. First is a general arrangement of the governor linkage, the 2nd is zoomed in on the area of interest where the spring #18 attaches. No other options I'm afraid.