Hey fellas I wanted to run this by the consensus. My 410d 1993 had got a squeal in the rear hydraulics coming from the valve body. When idling and all valves returned to what I call zero and the valve body sets there squealing like if you started to crack on open sometimes you get a squeal time noise. Now the valve body was covered in muck, fluid and dirt, so I cleaned it all off to check for leaks but I’m gonna have to put it all back together to run it in order to check it. I know there’s some leakage just don’t know which or maybe all. I wonder if that squeal at idle could be trash or even piece of deteriorated oring down in there and figured I get a vote form the forum. Also when it warms up my loader curl gets pretty weak. Will change the fluid and filter and breather next week but after I do the valve seals. Any opinions?
I took a short video of the squealin thinkin I could post it in the thread. Either it ain’t possible or I’m not tech skilled enough to figure it out
I’ll rephrase that the squeal doesn’t sound exactly like slightly cracking a valve open but similar and I can get the squeal to disappear for a brief moment while cracking valves. I wide open an outrigger or bucket control and the squeal disappears while said valve is wide open .
Come to think of it, any of the controls being run wide open and the squeal goes away. I can’t post a video but it will let me post a picture , I throw it up it just doesn’t have to sqealing sound haha
I have run a 310d hard for probably 15 years straight, trenching wide open. Sometimes 800-1000 ft a day open, closed, seeded and strawed and in all those years after about 16000 hours on that old gale we only had a few issues and they were never hydraulic. Had the reverser go at about 12k hours but that was due to loaning it to a guy plowin pipe who used it to drag his d6 that he used to plow with likely doing so in probably second gear prob burnin up a weather reverser and then the wet brakes and ofcourse bushings and pins and tires but all in all a heck of a machine . Now that can’t be said Ditch witch track plow tier 2 . While it would plow pipe like a champ and a few times 4 2” polyethylene at 4’ in the ground running a mile a night in hood ground,, when it didn’t have computer problems .. back then when the tier 2 came out and if it left you high and dry, she’d sit for a week sometimes while james river,dw and somebody else all trying to figure it out because they all had parts on it. But while she sat the old 310 was rocking away buddy.
About 2 years into the dw rattle trap I figured out the bypass button haha. Tiny pin hole in the front console . Stick a small eye glass screw driver in and hold down the button. At least get you off a steep slope. Too many electronics in a machine like that. Why the heck would you put an oil shut off on a track plow that shuts you down as your tryin to squeak across a 2-1 slope. And bam, she shuts down that’s a wrap fellas we’re headed back to the hotel while they bring a crane out to get the machine off the slope so you could start it again! Thank the lord my haydays were closing by the tier 2,, I can’t imagine being a small business owner in underground running tier 4 out of warranty . sorry for my rant fellas, I was reminiscing
That looks like normal seepage on the valve bank. If it was really leaking, that part would be clean from flowing oil. You could replace the seals, but that is just an o ring on the top and bottom of the spool, under that oblong cover, and just keeps the seepage to the outside under better control. That seepage is not your problem. All the internal is metal to metal for the spool movement at least, the section to section uses o rings, and that could be an issue. So this is a closed center system, so it makes perfect sense that the squealing goes away when you open a valve to operate a function. Move the bucket tilt one way and the oil is flowing so the pressure is lower, then keep holding the valve in the same position as the cylinder reaches the end of the stroke and the pressure will go up, and the squeal will come back, right? The operations and test manual will have a procedure for measuring leakage and a specification for how much is acceptable. You might narrow the leak down with a "stethoscope" or a screw driver held against a hard shell ear muff. Or if you start it cold you might see the heat build up with a non contact thermometer, or camera. Or wait till a morning with heavy dew and fog, start it up and let it idle and the leaky section might start steaming obviously before the rest of the valve body dries off, or melt frost.
It's been years since I've worked on a D series Deere hoe so I've forgotten a lot about them, but I'm near certain what Delmer stated that they were a closed center system. I wager the squeal when things are in neutral is coming from a main relief valve on that valve stack, can't say for certain though as again, been years since I've worked on one, but if that's the case, either a faulty main relief valve or the standby pressure on the pump is too high causing the relief to crack open. All just a guess on my part.
yes, check the standby pressure, and it sure looks like a relief valve on the left of that valve body. I was thinking the only relief valve was located in the priority valve under the engine area where the loader, backhoe, steering and brakes branch off, but check JDparts to see what you have. Is that an extendahoe, or auxilary hydraulic outlet? and you have a separate valve for the stablilizers?
I have the 900+ page service manual comin for it, yes sirs this is a closed center system. That valve body was covered thick in fluid soaked muck and how clean it is in the photo is after I dug it out to expose it all. What I noticed when I got back to the machine and it had sat for a day was one of the (pressure adjuster maybe?) not really sure what you call it but they have like a cap on each of them and it had leaked wet just setting. This is the one that was wet when I got back . It has aux on it non extendahoe but the aux is capped. I picked up a new hydraulic filter and went to change it and noticed the guy before me has the wrong filter on it, I don’t know if it’s making any issues but still is the wrong filter. The serial break on these 410ds puts mine before the change in hydraulics. Mine doesn’t have the added hydraulic reservoir which separates the transaxle in a sense . The later has an added reservoir and hydraulic filter with a breather for the hydraulics and then transaxle filter for the transaxle. Mine just runs it all through the hydraulic filter. The filter the guy before me put on it is the one for the later model machine, weather that is gonna make much difference I’m not sure but in my limited 25 years machine experience I wouldn’t think so? I had some clean up to do before the rain comes so I put it back together and I’m gonna change the fluid and put the new filter on today because the front loader is weak on the curl for some reason. There are some cylinders leaking (seeping) but the only one I notice to creep after the machine is shut down is the rear boom cylinder. I have all the seals just need down time to do them. Thanks a lot for the responses , any knowledge is greatly appreciated. A good note is with the serial break and mine being the prior ,, it seems less complicated, that is the system isn’t broke up as much.
Your circle should be a circuit relief valve, that should only affect that circuit when it is operated, or when a force is put on that cylinder higher than designed, so it shouldn't be squealing while in "neutral". If the loader is weak, then that could be related to the priority valve. The priority valves purpose is to shut off the loader hydraulic flow to preserve pressure for steering and brakes. The priority valve does NOT shut off the backhoe, so if you operate the backhoe while driving, you WILL lose steering and brakes while the backhoe is moving. A priority valve operating would tend to cut in and out though, it wouldn't be a steady low power, I said operating because that is how the priority valve is supposed to operate, and like many things in hydraulics it is not the problem, but points at what is the problem. In any case, I doubt the loader weakness has anything to do with the backhoe squealing so ignore it for now.
The loader works when I first fire up the machine, as the machine gets warm and hot is when the loader gets weak. I should had mentioned that. But with the squeal in the valve body, I can grab any lever or even the foot pedal and as soon as I engage said control fully the squeal goes away only to return as I let off said control in the wide open position.
In response to your first reply Delmer, I don’t believe the squeal does come back with a control open and cylinder maxed out if I hold it open but I will check in detail later today.
I should had gave the back story and more detail on this machine. I just bought it from a lady who’s dad passed away and it had been tucked in the barn for 10 years. It’s got 5k hrs on it and there is an issue with the brakes which could Be related to the other issue but I assumed maybe it’s because it sat for so long and maybe the frictions dried out or got hardened or something like that. The brake pedal is stout, doesn’t move much at all before it engages and from a pedal feel standpoint they feel really really good and strong. They just don’t stop it for squat and when they do start to slow it to a stop they chatter real bad. Weather that means anything hydraulic pressure related I’m not sure but the pedal firmness doesn’t fluctuate at all, it stays firm and hard with little movement or slack.
Holding the control open at the end of the stoke should be the same as no control open for the pump pressure, no flow, max pressure. You're not hurting anything at all by holding THIS SYSTEM stalled forever. The possible exception is the boom down, that relief is LOWER than system pressure so don't hold that one down stalled for longer than needed (cylinder extends to go down, opposite of Case, and the cylinder is not ballanced that way). Check all the backhoe functions to see what they do, not sure if it could show anything, just curious though. Can't comment on the brakes one way or another.
The brake chatter may be caused by the wrong oil in the system. Wet brakes require an oil with anti chatter additives in it.
Changed the fluid and filter, I’m sure it’s just me but the squeal doesn’t sound as loud haha. Yep still there. I checked the controls and it’s like you said, I can grab any control and open it and the squeal goes away until I bottom the stroke out and then the squeal comes back. Tinkerer, that’s the main reason I changed the fluid was the chatter, that and because when I originally looked at it I checked the fluids and seen a reddish fluid in the reverser (next on my list to change) so I figured there was an alternative to hygaurd in it. That And that’s what I always do to anything I buy is changed all the fluids and filters. Expensive and sometimes not needed but it’s piece of mind. Back on that squeal though, it’s definitely that left side of the valve body is where it’s coming from and without having good ears like I use to it does sound like the squeal comes from that valve in the circled picture. My book should be here today yet and I’ll be able to get an idea of where everything is at and routed.
The main relief is the dirty one on the far left by itself. Curious which function the circled one is and if that's the boom down like I mentioned? even though it shouldn't have pressure in neutral? A long screwdriver with the handle against the side of hard shell earmuffs makes a workable stethescope if you want to try narrowing it down by sound.
The one circled which is the one that leaked while setting over night is the boom. The one to the left are the swing cylinders. I’ll add that this 410d is the first 410 series machines I’ve ran and it doesn’t have near the balls the 310d I ran for all those years when it comes to dragging the machine around with the backhoe and it might be that the boom part itself has an issue but I’m not entirely sure because the machine is a bit heavier than the 310d open cab was. This machine isn’t one that would climb a slope like the 310 I ran which would go where ever I wanted it to, I mean I’ve had that 310 belly up in muck where another guy had it stuck and he thought we would need a crane to get it out but I had no problem with the power of the backhoe on that machine and just reved it up, kicked it in reverse while walking the loader and backhoe same time backward slinging mud and she came on out. This 410 would be done in that situation, but maybe it’s just got an issue that I’m calculating weight rather. when that book gets here I’ll test the pressures on everything and see if maybe that boom is out and go from there. It’s still doing what I need it to do but if you fellas are anything like me, The machine needs to be right. Side note, the old 310d leaked all over and never effected the hydraulic power so I don’t think the leaks and seeps I have on this one is an issue until it literally springs a leak. All in all it’s not a bad but other than the inflated cost of everything and that these older pre tier machines seem to be harder and harder to get kinda like the pre def and pre egr trucks and when you do find one in good shape it’s gonna cost you a pretty penny for sure
I probably could had got this machine years ago for less than I paid for it now but with 5k hrs on it and once I get the kinks worked out it’ll be a good one till I die anyway
The most likely reason the machine gets weak as it warms up is the oil is getting hot from that squeal, which again, is most likely caused by a main relief cracking open during standby pressure. Oil constantly passing through a restricted orifice like that will most certainly cause oil to heat up. Once hydraulic oil nears the range of 180F and above it starts doing weird things. The leaky port relief is a different issue. That's an aged machine, you're going to have leaky o-rings and seals all over the place.
Update on the brakes. Always knew about the wrong fluid and chatter but never would had thought you pretty much lose your brakes. I went from barely being able to stop it from just creeping in first gear to having brakes again after changing the fluid. I’ll be changing that reverser fluid next, I had every intention of changing that out it’s a red color and for all I know he’s got atf in it. I did some lookin around and listening this afternoon and using a 1/2” pipe I could hear the squealing on all the backhoe controls except the bucket. When I change the reverser fluid I’ll pull some pressure valves and look see if I can find anything
I just got my book on it and I see what your sayin Willie, I just needed to put eyes on it. It’s a valve with a screw pressure adjuster. Likely either spring issue, valve wore or out of adjustment. I’m leaning toward spring or valve but could be build or or debris also. Thanks for the tip it helped me navigate quicker.
Cleaned up the front to get to the pressure control valve and turned the adjustment inward to reduce the pressure coming out and sure as the world the squeal went away but came back shortly after. I haven’t put a guage on it but can’t turn the screw in anymore without the pump yelling at me. From where the screw was set, I turned it inward about 30 degrees and anymore and the pump starts to groan when I rev it up and work the hydraulics. I’d say it was probably set right where it needed to be and it’s just something failing on the pressure compensating valve and or the pressure adjusting assembly. I can’t find any parts for it on the web no matter how I word it though and my tm1513 manual doesn’t give any part numbers. I sure hope this isn’t an obsolete part, I wouldn’t had thought so being a early to mid 90s machine.
I would had removed the adjustment assembly and pressure compensator valve but the manual says to removed the de stroke solenoid first to prevent any damage to the solenoid and after the solenoid is removed to discard the seals and replace with new. Which has me tryin to find parts on the web at a dead end.
Ahh I see says the blind man. Found a breakdown of this, green parts had it all except the actual pressure compensating valve itself. It’s probably ok. The glass is half full gentleman!
These are not pressures I'd want to adjust blindly. Do you have the manual and are you following it? If you're not satisfied with the performance now, then lower pressure is not going to fix that. I've used a 610C which is very similar to the newer 410s, and it would pick, pull and push itself out of anything, power was never an issue, but then maybe it was turned UP?
Hey delmer, I reduced the pressure screw about 30% I guess to trouble shoot and see if that was indeed the area I need to look at. My manual isn’t a trouble shoot manual and more of the remove and reinstall technical manual. 30 degrees was going from say 12 to about 4 and didn’t run it other than to check if the squeal went away and how long it took to come back. I wasn’t intending to adjust the squeal out as a means of remedy, just to trouble shoot really. And it wasn’t that I was very unhappy with the performance rather comparing it to the lighter 310d. The machine runs and digs but what was problematic was the squeal and after some time the loader loosing power from what I’ve learned here is the fluid constantly running and getting too hot. I have the parts breakdown of this area and the seals and springs on the way. I’ll put a guage on it after I replace the parts and adjust it or if I don’t feel comfortable adjusting it I’ll have a guy come out to fine tune it after I put the parts in.
I don’t have much experience with hydraulics other than hoses and replacing parts over the years so pressure testing is new to me but I’ve rebuilt Diesel engines, gas engines, trannys, rear ends , hotrodded a few chainsaws and built a few drag cars. I think I should be able to manage resetting the proper pressure once I get the right manual. My manual is the tm1513 technical . I think I need the tm1512