Good Morning to All, I am putting a new to me bucket, a 17" digmor on my JD 9300 backhoe that is mounted on a JD 450B Crawler Loader with a four in 1 bucket. I would like to install a lifting eye on the bucket. I have seen various forms of this, usually mounted six or so inches below the curl pin. Some are weleded padeyes of what looks to be 1/2 plate, the local backhoe folks around here seem to like a chain grab hook (fixed, not sliding) for about 3/8 chain, and I saw the other day, on a mini being towed, a "D" type ring on a weld/bolt mount, often used to hook trailer safety chains to on heavy duty rear bumpers. I like the concept of the "D" ring with the rotation allowed, and that I can use various types of chain or other lifting devices, like log tongs easily with good security of the device. What I am looking for is some experience on what type of eye to mount and what is the "ideal" placement. The 17" bucket is in addition to the 30" bucket the machine came wth. 30" is too wide for logging road ditching, drain placement and underground utility install for my needs. Howard
A welded hook is quick, dirty and effective for getting the job done. 5/16 or 3/8, depending on what you have for chains. A D-ring is nice but the dirt is going to beat it up something fierce. For lifting now and then, I'll put a 6T shackle though one of the unused holes through the 1 inch plate on the bucket, just below the curl pin.
Stick it on the bucket so the chain can be tensioned by curling the bucket; lots more sensitive control with the curl compared to just lifting the whole boom.
A 3/8" hook welded on is best IMHO. It will grab 5/16 or 1/4" chain just fine. 1/4" gr 70 chain is very handy to use, until you break it, but I haven't yet.
So, put the hook low on the bucket so curl is readily used, hook is more dirt resistant than D ring and in a pinch, I should use the unused lower holes. Which brings me...how about welding a padeye to a piece of pipe the width of the unused lower holes, and putting a removeable pin through that. Weight is distributed, lifting hook is easily removed for digging and cost is low. And no modification to the bucket is needed. Howard
Welding and pipe... Sounds like more trouble and failure risk. Fast_st has the best idea yet ... A shackle & chain through the unused bucket hole. A shackle sized for a bucket pivot hole will be rated more than the hoe will crane.
Well...I like the idea of a "centered" load. I would rather have the lifting fixture fail then bend the bucket...the fixture is cheap and easily repaired, getting a bent bucket straight, not so easy! I have spent much of the last two weeks looking at hundreds of pieces of custom made below the hook lifting equipment for specialized production of aerospace vehicles. Not outside heavy equipment, but internal to some vey large scale manufacturing facilities. On the other hand, backhoes are normally way overbuilt for the load capacity to accomidate side loads like rocks... Let me think about this. Howard Howard
I haven't bent my bucket or twisted the boom. The last time I used it, it was a shackle through the dozer cable eye attached to the bucket. JD 350 Dozer blew a final at the bottom of a pretty steep hill, 1000' from the barn, probably a 150 foot vertical climb. With help, freewheel the winch while driving the backhoe up the hill 70 feet or so, plant the bucket like a spade and let the dozer winch itself up, repeat until we're at the barn. Worked great as it was too slippery and too steep for the backhoe to help any other way.
I bought 2 3/8chain hooks and put one on each side (welded). I use my bucket for logging so the double hook is best for moving logs and keeping them stable. The hooks are on the back side of the buckets low enough for easy hooking, high enough to be out of the way for digging. Having the hooks on the bucket also gives that extra little action sometimes needed by bucket curl
Another way to look at the problem is the lift capacity of the hoe. Is the max lift likely to bend the bucket or flange ? Consider the bucket is designed to dig a hole, sometimes being side loaded as it digs. This is worse than a load at the bucket mount. (closer to center)
Pins are meant to run in shear, not in load bearing, so a pipe that spans the flanges would want to be maybe 3/4 to 1 inch wall thickness. normal sched 40/80 pipe might allow the pin to bend.
I have this spring loaded lifting hook on my 24" bucket, It's great. I think the bucket came off a Mitsubishi mini ex.
Actually, in this case, double shear!!! The longer the pipe, between the flanges, the more the shear load and lower the bending load. At a maximum working limit of under 10k lbs, between the stiffness of the pin AND the stiffness of the gussetted pipe, I expect little plastic deflection. Howard
? ? ? Longer pipe between flanges is lower bending load ? ? "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means"
Perhaps I was unclear... We have two fixed eye holes 10" apart, for instance the extra unsued holes in the bucket flange and we put a pin between them and hang a strap in the middle so that the total load is concentrated at a point halfway between the eyes at 5" each side. The we hang a 10,000lb load at the middle point. The SHEAR at each eye will be 5,000 lbs. If we move the strap around so it is 2.5" inches from one side, the shear will be 2500lbs and 7,500lbs. But the shear will always equal the total load. Now lets looks at the bending moment on the pin, with clockwise positive. With the load centered, the load on each pin will be 5,000 x 5" or 25,000 in-lbs or 2,083.4 ft-lbs, positive on the left, negative on right. That will be your maximum bending moment. That may be enough to bend the bucket flange, but the shear load is still 5,000 per side. And that is assuming your 1.5" diameter Pin is very soft with maximum deflection. Next case, we take a rigid pipe, lightly larger in diameter than the pin and weld a gusset lenghtwise as a stiffener with a central pad-eye for our load. The pipe is just 1/8 shorter on both sides that the eyeholes, and we can assume that beween the stiffness of the pipe and the rod, there is minimal deflection or bending. If we recalculate our bending moments at the same 5,000lb load but with 1/8 moment arm, we have 5,000 x 1/8" or 52.1 ft-lbs moment. I can easily calculate the wall thickness and gusset thickness necessary for minimal deflection, but I think schedule 40 pipe with 1/4" plate gusset will be sufficient to minimize bending moment at the eye holes. Is that clear? Howard
Actually, if the hook is inline with the bucket piston, I'd expect something closer to 21000 pounds of force. I think its a 3.5 inch bore and 2200 relief pressure. and well a little less for the piston rod area call it 18,000 ish? I like overkill unfortunately, I'd probably go with a piece of .500 wall 4130 tubing. and add a grease fitting. Can't forget the grease fitting.
Makes sense, but can't easily get heavy wall 4130 tubing, but I can get 2" pipe and 1/4 plate!
a foot of 1144 1/12 solid bar and a foot of 2"od 4130 onlinemetals is pretty handy! though your design is worth a proof test.
I've had good results with high grade weld on hooks 3/8" as high on the back of the bucket as feasible. It only comes loose when I really want it to. I curl the bucket in all the way, drop it to the ground, and crowd suddenly. It then comes off. Otherwise it never has. No chain is ever the right length, 5/16 grade 80 chain most of the time is fine. Also get a snafful as my father called it. Others call it a keyhole. This enables you to fine tune chain length, or loop other chains through. I often use bedding sand. I fill half 275 gallon oil tanks like clam shells with sand. I've welded a dozen with short chains at each corner. As I dig the ditch, before moving the tractor, I can use a short chain, a keyhole, and two short 5/16" chains to lift four corners of an "ash pan". I swing over the ditch, and unhook two chains spreading it over ten feet of ditch. I'm then able to add ten feet to as many conduits as there are. I then refill ten feet of ditch using warning tape. The less the tractor moves, the less hand work restoring a lawn, or neighbor's meadow. These same "ash pans" are a great place to put the spoils when you dig. A 4' wide ditch is easy to restore. A 15 foot wide torn up lawn is less so. Keeping the mess off the surrounding lawn is easier than removing it. Willie
Get an eye hoist hook like this that fit over the pin in the unused bucket holes, then make a pair of spacers out of pipe that fits over the pin to keep the hook in center, no welding required.
That's assuming the gusset which we weren't smart enough to figure out. #12 is the way to go, but with a grab hook instead of a slip hook for me. But then I have hooks on the end of every loader bucket, none on a backhoe bucket.
Mine just has a 3/8 chain hook welded in the rear center about a foot below the top of the bucket. Haven't tried to lift anything with it yet. I guess some hoes are balanced better than others but mine won't lift anywhere near it's capacity before lifting the front wheels off the ground. I don't see any way I could damage the bucket or arms. I have pinched some stumps with the bucket to move to a burn pile but I have to be extremely careful moving with any load on the hoe. I usually turn around and grab stuff with the loader end to move it around.
I have 5 buckets all with hooks in the center. All I think are within 6" of the ears on the bucket and the ones on the clean-up and 24" bucket get used very regularly with no problems so far in over 30 years. Like mentioned when lifting you can gain distance by curling your bucket out when the hook is placed high and it's not effected when digging. Pic. is of the one on the clean-up bucket I made. Bought an old bucket for $50 cut the ears off to use had a machine shop roll the bottom to a card board pattern and used used grader blades for the side top edges 5/8" x 8" cutting edge. Lasted about 2 jobs before I ripped the ears 1/2 off back to the drawing board beefed it up and now dig stumps, boulders and what ever else comes along with no ill effects. I have a vary heavy 24" bucket I prefer to use in these circumstances but things don't always work as planed.
OOPS for pics.
Can you post a pic of this bad boy?
Billrog I caught you in the middle and couldn't delete my last post.
Not really, the gusset is only a cheap way of gaining bending stiffness since it is really only a "solid" truss. We can gain the same bending stiffness by using a piece of heavy (read expensive) heavy wall tubing around the pin. I spent too much time on industrial lifting fixtures the last few weeks... Howard
Blueboy here's a couple more picks of the bucket & as it gets used 90% of the time would have over 4,000 hrs. on it.
I'd bet more than brittle, that broken side cutter is under enormous tension. When it breaks V out the break from both sides. Then preheat to 800D F. not the break, but the area unbroken at 90D to the edge as though the crack extended farther. Expansion will further open the crack. Weld the crack maintaining the preheat temperature. Use a torch to keep it hot a while after welding. Taper the heat gradually. Hot metal expands. If you fix the crack without preheating the bucket side, the new weld will be the only thing expanded. As it cools, it'll shrink giving immense tension on the side cutter. I use high manganese grouser stock for this, and other cutting edge applications. An 8' loader bucket edge will break in a couple places as it cools. It's easier to weld it on in three parts, Middle first, then the two ends. Let the whole bucket cool, then preheat an extension of the joint before welding it. Willie
I looked at onlinemetals...1.5" W2 tool steel is about four times what I normally pay for W1 tool steel from McMaster-Carr. While they have a nice selection, I can do far better with local suppliers. Howard
Nice job on the bucket...I got the bucket I was working on back in service yesterday with new teeth, welded closed rotatable shackle (like for truck safety chains) and repaired some worn and rusted wear strips on the bottom with 1/4" A36 3" wide strip. Now I am going to start work in the 30" bucket, currently with 6 230 series teeth and shanks, with the teeth welded to the shanks, a terrible mess. I am going to remove the teeth, and use it for things like footers and banks where flat edge is desired. I was thinking about using a combination of 1/4" mild steel and AR400 cutting edge. What thickness would be good for the cutting edge? My supplier has up to 1/2" Howard
For a toothless big wide, (for your machine) I doubt you'll be prying on ledge. I'd use mild hot rolled 3/4" x 4" for the cutting edge. Edge it with a piece of high manganese grouser stock. With the bucket sitting flat right side up lay the grouser stock on the floor flat also. This gives a flat plane edge to "Rub your bevel" like a woodworker seeks to do. For me digging a ditch or hole is quick. Properly refilling it, leveling it, raking it, and picking the rocks takes time. I often dig ditches. I have a number of trays made from 275 gallon oil tanks cut in half. A short chain is welded to each corner. Using an extend a hoe, I can put spoils in them, dig 10 feet at a time, install conduit, and sand, and picking up each tray, set it on the edge of the ditch. Unhooking two chains, I tip it into the ditch. This keeps the mess as wide as the ditch. No scraping the grass to clean off the spoils. I can smooth out the ground ready for a hand rake before moving the tractor. The less driving the tractor around, the less damage to a lawn. I can adjust the tractor stabilizers to place the cutting edge of the bucket on the ground level, but reaching over a spoils pile to refill a hole is better accomplished with a wrist, and a longer reach excavator. Us guys with smaller reach need a different way. Willie
Thanks for the advice...3/4" mild steel with grouser bar cutting edge. That seems to meet both the wear resistance and structural considerations. The soils around here are usually waterlogged, with rocks, clay and roots, so dig hole, dewater, then install footings or utilities or such... With the hoe mounted on track loader with 4 in 1, backfilling is fairly easy. Howard
Yeah, on a construction site, the front bucket fills that need well. Across a finished lawn, owners lose their composure when the mess is bigger than it has to be. To me, it is discouraging to spend a lot of time restoring lawn. The narrower I can make the disturbance, the better. I on the other hand object to Ditch Witch installations. There is no way to bed the conduit. rocks always fall into the ditch, and three foot depth to the top of the conduit is near impossible. Here, the ground freezes to a depth of up to 6', PVC stands freezing, but the wider the temperature swings, the more shrinkage affects the joints. Over a period of years, overlapping joints can pull apart. A foot deep temperature may range 80 degrees F. 3' deep it'll range 40degrees. Bedding conduit, or drain pipe is essential. You've got to get sand or processed stone 6" under, and 6" over before dozing dirt into the ditch. Willie
:OMG That's some good info on your last two posts. Helps this newbe
Most of my work is in deep woods, maintaining fire roads, clearing land for cabin sites, and general mountain property development work. Finished lawns are not common up here. On the other hand, it has been fun the last couple of weeks, slowly rebuilding one bucket and starting on a second. I have certainly learned the ins and outs of teeth and shanks. And my thanks to Willie B. up in Mt. Tabor, VT. I will be traveling up that way soon, to the NE Kingdom, where an old and dear friend of ours will be ordained and will start a position as a resident Pastor in the UCC after what seems to be a decade of seminary. Howard
Are you referring to Island Pond? Willie
No, this will be in the Montpelier area, about 75 miles SW of Island Pond. And I see Mt. Tabor is on US 7 just south of Rutland...used to spend my summers around Lake Fairlee and White River Junction. Howard
Montpelier is liberal territory, gun toting woodchucks like me aren't welcome. Willie
Hey Montpelier!!! :guns:guns:guns:guns:guns:guns:guns Stupid liberal left nuts!
Vermont has by a wide margin the most liberal legislature in the nation. I think we rank high in conservatism of populace. Taxation without representation is my interpretation. Politicians need, before they announce their candidacy, money. Their income must be passive. The term Magic Mailbox is outdated. The lifestyle is not. The state isn't big enough for politicians to sell their soul to the Devil for income. Before the beginning of a political career here they most often have either a trust fund, or other family money. Most natives have to earn a living. They haven't the free time for small state politics. Enter the immigrant. Refugees from other states, they have come here for better quality of life. Not all of Vermont's legislators were born out of state, nearly all have parents born out of state. Not a bad thing, but when it exceeds 90% it becomes risky. Liberals pass liberal, and socialistic laws, conservatives must live under. Willie
Hey, this is good to know, if somebody ever takes me up on my offer to give my left nut for something, I can go there and get one, and keep mine!!!
This was such a useful thread before the wingnut rant. Can we keep politics out of this please?
Yes. Willie
was at my local heavy equipment store and they had some monster hooks with safety latches, looked like something in the 20 ton category, that'd make a dandy bucket hook.
Looks like the "wingnut rant" gave this thread some extra life. Almost went to page 2. Hows the bucket rebuilding going? Here's one for ya. What'e wrong with this picture? Answer: They welded the hook on the wrong side. Difficult to get to the grease zerks
Bucket is in service, now to rebuild the old 30" bucket and then the backhoe control valve assembly...
Had my "wingnut rant" agreed with his political leanings, he would have cheered. Nonetheless, revealing problems within this forum was inappropriate. For that, I apologize. Willie
Not a problem...my politics are my own and discussed other places...bring back Dwight! I am in favor of his version of conservatism. Howard