Since i am now installing fiberglass pools i'll proably be looking to buy a machine within the next year so i do not have to sub out excavation. I orginally was going to buy a cat 305. But now i am thinking a backhoe may be the way to go. With a backhoe i can plow snow during the winter and make alot of $, where the excavator would be sitting. I think it would also be nice to have the backhoe when i have to move large quanities of material, where my 246b would take to long. The holes i need to dig are only 6 feet deep. The largest pool is 15x35. So it is not alot of dirt to dig out. I just want to get the machine that will make me the most $. Matt
I couldn't imagine digging a pool with a backhoe. You can't place the material behind you or load a truck. Buy an excavator, don't make this decision complicated. A mini excavator and skid steer will outwork a backhoe 3 to 1 in this type of operation.
guys up my way dig them all the time with TLB's and the deep ends run around 8-9 feet. if you have to dig and tapper it then a gradall would be the best choice but for what your looking for a TLB would be good .
Like CascadeScaper said go with that 305 and a skid steer. Many times a backhoe will not fit in the area the pool is going where a min-ex and skid will and also like CascadeScaper said you will not be able to load a dump truck or move the material behind you. You can use the skid in the winter also.
X2 on the skid and mini-X and use the skid for snow removal, but of course you can do it with a TLB too.
Yea yea yea.. I guess a 305 would be best. My 246b is getting used this winter with a 10ft push box. I was just trying to figure out how to work more iron into the lineup that could be used for snow. Turns out there is big money in snow, and iron is way more efficent then a truck with a plow. Matt
Yah but the only problem is when wilL we ever get some of that REAL snow?:crying LOL :bouncegri
U will be much more happy with the 305. I would rather poke myself in the eye than go back to a wheel hoe. Use the skid if it snows. U will be waaaaaaaay more happy.
well if i had to be out pushing snow i would rather be out in a mid size loader maybe a volvo L70-90 cat 924
All the companies here dig pools with backhoes.
I don't understand why everyone is so anti-backhoe. Back in the day before we had our excavators, we used to install sewer mains, water mains, dig foundations all with a backhoe. You can prolly pick up a nice 4wd backhoe cheaper than a mini-ex and skid steer. Ideally, the mini-ex and skid steer is the way to go, but you buy what will be in your best financial interests.
How big is the average lot? if apce to work is an issue than the mini and skid would be ideal, if you have some room to work than a backhoe would do just fine.
I have to agree with the last few replies, with some qualifications. For years, I dug with backhoes, whatever needed dug. That included a couple of swimming pools. The couple of comments that "you can't load a truck"?? That's just not true. Here's where I qualify my agreement--It's just sooo much easier to dig holes, and load trucks, with an excavator. With a hoe, you simply need to be able to position the hoe and truck so that there's no need to swing more than 180 degrees, and the tractor has someplace to sit. That might take some doing, and might take more re-positioning during the course of the digging. And if you find you can't get things set up so that you're swinging less than 180 degrees, you get creative and pile it somewhere, and then handle it a second time. But it can certainly be done. The advantage excavators have is that you can swing all the way around, so they sometimes are the only way to go. But everything has its trade-offs--you can't push snow with an excavator, for instance. I'm only bringing these points up because what I see in the comments about what you can't do with a backhoe is the tendancy to get spoiled by what you can do with an excavator. I'm spoiled rotten. I almost hate to get on a rubber tired hoe anymore. But it's important, when you're weighing pros and cons, to not allow being spoiled by excavators to blind you to the fact that backhoes have versatility as one of their strong points.
I have dug a small pool once with a backhoe. Its not fun or easy. But you can do it. I had the same problem you had. I chose the backhoe because of the 3 year snow gig I got. But I know give it another year or so and we will have an bobcat 337 mini. :yup
A couple of months ago a guy that lives down the road from me said he was going to build a pool in his back yard. He said and I quote: "I'm going with the big stuff to get the job done faster". I'm thinking Cat 315 or something cause with the area he marked off, it was gonna be a pretty big pool. 2 days later a rental truck shows up with a rental bobcat with backhoe attachment . I've never done any pools but I do know thats not the way to go:spaz .
I should make mention that my beliefs on using a backhoe vs. a mini ex. are based on a small lot or a backyard install. If you had enough room for the backhoe, it would be okay, but the mini ex would still be faster, plus be able to handle smaller sites with ease. Seems to be the way to go.
You have to have a decent sized lot or good access to use a rubber tired backhoe like a 580-590 sized Case machine into. If I was going to try dig a pool with a mini it would be nothing smaller than a 10,000lb machine. Rubber tired hoes have their place they are good for loading trucks,good for grading and spreading material,good for doing jobs where you can drive too. Backhoes used to be the norm back in the 70s-80s to early 90s after that they sort of died off. A excavator can do quicker and cleaner excavations.
You have two discussions going here: 1) is a business decision based on a multi role machine and the other 2) is a technical discussion about machines for digging swimming pools. 2) is easy..the biggest excavator that can fit in the size of jobs you will be doing. You can do it with either as pointed out but the Ex is best. In my neck of the woods we seem to be either needing a 308 and something like the ASV SR80 or a Cat 908...and the other pool jobs we do are with the 301.8 and a 216 or even smaller. The reality is we go with the Kubota 161-3 (just a bit bigger than a 305) and my 248B...because thats what we have and can afford. 1) is a lot harder and comes down to the individual circumstance and only you will be able to answer this. Digger, I have loaded a lot of trucks with a tractor mounted FEL..and you work bloody hard...go like hell...and get really really good...and then you get on a wheel loader and realise how much better off you can be. That said I haven't been on some of these flash new Hoe's (Except J unk C oming from B ritain) and they look like they would be pretty agile and fast compared to those of 10 years ago. I would have thought with 4WS and some articulated and that they would make a fair fist of loading trucks....even though I suppose they are still a**e heavy when the bucket is empty.
i am in a similar situation. i have a backhoe already. my plan is to feel each job out. i don't have a problem loading trucks with the fel. if there is a hurry or need i'll rent an ex for the job. do what i can with what i've got and if the need is there consistently then purchase whats needed. no arguement that the mini ex skid steer combo is faster. maybe down the road i will go that route. just not looking forward to hiring a full time employee to run a second piece of equipment on some of the jobs. on others i can only run one at a time. whether digging then loading with the tlb, or digging with an ex then loading with a skidder. space is rarely a problem and when it is i rent the smaller equipment for it. good luck
Excatly, I've always said..... If you had bought everything that you needed, you wouldn't have to work. Why buy 2 machines when you can handle the job with one. Yeah, the job may go slower and a little harder, but it will be easier on your bank acct. You can get a good used 4wd hoe for around $20,000 and less. You would have twice that wrapped up in a mini-ex and skid steer and do the same amount of work.
I have no idea where some of you guys are coming from,but after digging pools with a TLB for 32 years,I would NEVER even attempt to do one with a mini exc. and skid steer.Laying out the job correctly is everything,there has never been a situation in a tight area I could'nt figure out.For versatility,power,and logistics,nothing comes close to a TLB.If the job has some ledge rock that can be dug,then a decent size exc. is in order,but not a mini.
Now that I think about it mini isn't the right word, mini to me is a 315 Cat. Now if the lots are big enough for a TBL that would be a better choice for you IMO too. I just hate TBLs so much yet there so handy, but damn there good for nothing POS got to turn your head and look where your swinging.
I too have to agree,I love running a backhoe,mini's are too cramped for me with the hoe i can streach my legs and be comfortable. Think about this they dug pools in the 60's and 70's without mini's and they probably will in 2027.I can't speak for everyone here but my machine will always be a backhoe,I'm pretty much a 1 man band and with the hoe can do whatever I need to do without really renting another machine. A bit off topic but I'm also a year round company so I dig and plow snow,If I had a mini/skid steer,one machine would have to sit most of the winter and thats hard on the bank account.
tlb I have dug many a pool in the North Central Wasington area.I see many types of soil and rock conditions,as well as sites.I would normally use a 312, but for certain reasons a tlb was the way to go.A 416 is a little slower than the 312,but I would bet it would be a lot faster than a 305.Digging a pool with a tlb is just fine.Look at other jobs you can do with a tlb vs a mini ex.
Interesting debate. I personally don't own a TLB but they have their place. There are times when I wish I had one but overall I think I have the edge in being set up the way that I am. If your a one man operation I think you really can't take advantage of a mini/skid combo and so a TLB would be a more logical fit. One thing that needs to be corrected is the misconception that mini's cant dig. The breakout of a 580M and a Takeuchi TB53 are almost spot on. The TK machine will dig side by side with any 14' hoe. The difference may be in reach and dig depth when comparing to an extendahoe, but digging force is very nearly the same. One day I may buy a TLB but for now I really like the advantages of the mini/skid steer, but everyones operation is different.
If my 2 is worth anything a backhoe will get work when others are sitting of course 75% of the time an excavator is the one for the job.. Although the other 25% The ex is usless. But if I had one machine to pick to do the most with I would definitly choose the bachoe. Ask anyone who has come up through the ranks if used properly a backhoe is very versatile even today with all the atachments out there makes it that much better.. And on the pools a local pool contractor loves the gradall for pools if room allows. And thats my 2
Down near me, all the local pool companies use excavators to dig pools. One company that rents space in our yard has 14 excavators and stays pretty busy digging for a few major pool companies in lower fairfield county.
My dad installed many pools with our old 76 Case 580. He had no trouble with it. He would get down into the pool to finish up the deep end, and then remove the "ramp" he made in the shallow end once he was finished.
Excavators may be easier but Id rather run a 580 or 310 any day before something else. Excavators get old and boring for me, with a backhoe its always something different with different approaches to tackling the task. If I wanted to bail out a pool with the least amount of time, excavator would the way to go. Average size pool, probaly a 100-120 size would be best. Id still prefer to use the backhoe if it wasnt for the sake of time.
we just dug a decent size pool with a backhoe...no big deal
I'm currently digging a 48x58 foot basement hole with an old IH 2400 TLB. It's a matter of working with what you got as someone posted earlier. It does take planning (and time). I'll most likely end up renting an excavator or hiring the finish work done due to some pretty good size rocks I'm having trouble pulling out.
I side with the backhoe group here, diggin pools with backhoes isn't a bad gig. I dug a couple nice ones awhile back with a 580 Super L2 and a 42" H&H bucket, made quick work of the job. While an excavator can be faster most of the time, you also have to think about crossing concrete curbs, driveways, yards and then swinging area to move around. We kept one of our 580's with bald tires all the time just for doing the backyard jobs. You lose a lot of traction, but you can work in someones yard without rutting the place up too much.
two machines = two operators, = more ss rigmerol, = more fuel, =1.5x price of TLB, = more expensive. and if you can't use either uyabuya ipickela no ifosholo
me and my dad put in pools and a backhoe is a hole lot easier to dig pools with a backhoe than a excavator and are kidding me there wont be a lot of dirt for a 15x35? i have seen 7 tandem loads with lots of dirt to spare hauled out on a 16x32... and if you are goin to do this seriously a backhoe would be alot easier becuz if you couldnt get the truck to the backyard you could haul it out front with the front end loader where you couldnt with a track hoe.. and the way we dig pools you would wear out a set of pins and bushings so fast... and you would kill the turret on a excavator... but you also got to rememeber you can haul a backhoe with a single axle dump where you couldnt haul a decent sized trackhoe (if you got one to match the reach of a cat 430 with extendahoe) with a single axle you would need a fullsize tandem dump truck with a pretty heavy trailer... but seriously there is alot of dirt to move on a 15x35.. my opinion you should go watch a couple people dig pools and watch them lay it out and then see if you really want to do this
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums jlm335! :drinkup
:bouncegrihahaha thanks!!!:bouncegri
All we do is dig swimming pools i have seen them dug all different ways we use a 943 and a 935c track loader and also a 287b for the smaller acess pools. I have dug pools with a 305 and a skid steer and it is faster to do it with just the 287 any day pluss it only takes one opperator. it is all about cutting the cost of fuel the more tractors u use the more fuel consumed.
hmmmmmm we put in vinyl liner pools and there is no way i would ever attempt digging a pool with any of the equipment you listed!! you would so much hand work it wouldnt be funny...
Matt, what type of soil are you working in? Matt, What type of soil are you working in? Doing the Fiberglass pools is a little easier than gunite or vinyl lined since you can be a little more sloppy with the excavation as long as you don't mind buying a little more sand. I think some of the guys are missing the point, pool building isn't about production digging, it is about precision. You should be able to dig an average pool in a 6-12 hour day depending on size and conditions. It probably isn't worth spending twice the money to dig a pool 20-50% faster. If some dummy overdigs on a gunite pool you can spend hundreds or thousands on gunite to make up for the mistake. You may dig one or two pools a week, is it really going to be worth the money to get an excavator so that you can dig a pool in record time, but have no ability to do anything else with it? I worked for a pool contractor in Chico CA (home of Diamond almonds). The soil in most of the territory that we worked was really nice loam. We owned a beat 763 series Bobcat skid steer that we used for excavation, but during the season we contracted out most of the work to Sloop brothers. They had a backhoe and a 853 series Bobcat. The backhoe was used when it would fit, but most pools were done with the skid steer. This actually worked very well, the only flaw was that the skimmer boxes had to be hand dug. They would work out of a ramp in the shallow end and could get a pool dug much more accurately than you may think. If you are working in soft soil you may think about just purchasing a larger skid steer, with a smooth bucket, heavy duty bucket with teeth and a large trenching attachment. If you have crap for soil I would consider the backhoe and a skid steer. Things you have to do. 1) Excavate a hole slightly larger than the pool. 2) Trench for plumbing, electric and gas. 3) Make a sand bed in excavation for pool to set on. 4) Set and level pool. 5) Install plumbing. 6) Fill with water, while backfilling with sand equal to rising water line. 7) Grade, and get base down for pool deck. 8) Apply foam form to pool and pour deck. 9) Collect money! A skid steer is going to be a big help with backfilling, trenching, moving sand and base, and can be used to dig if the soil conditions are right. A smaller backhoe could do the same things, and may work just as well if you are not working in small backyards. Just make sure whatever you choose is going to make you enough money to make the payments. Good luck, Peter
there is not that much hand work involved i have been doin this for quite some time we konw what we are doing. This is the quickiest way around here it is just like anything once u get used to it no prob.
a long time ago in a state far far away... My grandparents had their first pool (that I am old enough to remember the pictures from) dug with a 446(B?) Cat backhoe, used most of the cut to fill the back side up and grade around the (concrete) pool. I don't think it's at all odd to use a backhoe to dig a pool.
when you build a vinyl liner pool you do it in this order the steps i am listing are for a standard coping edged vinyl pool 1-dig pool with three foot over dig 2-set walls and anchor them down 3-pour six inch deep footer that will fill the over dig 4-plumb everything 5-backfill and grade for concrete 6-dig needed trenches and wire pump, timer, and booster pump 7-trowel four to six inches of vermiculite on bottom 8-set liner and install vacuum until pool is 75% full 9-once pool is 75% full or more remove vacuum and continue filling 10-start up pool and add needed chemicals 11-jump in!! that is a very long version of how you do it!! but that is everything broke down to one step where alot of things like backfilling and electric is done all at the same time.. and all our pools are dug with a john deere 410(not sure the model) and we always backfill with a mini excavator it saves a lot hand work when you only have to grade for three or four feet of concrete on 65% of the pool.. and when the pool is dug we give the digger a quarter inch of leeway.. but he usually gets it dead nuts on.. ooooo yeah and our pool digger can usually dig a pool in about nine hours.. the clock starts when he unloads and it ends when he loads up to leave.. there isnt just nine hours of straight digging that nine hours includes layout everything. there is only one other pool digger around here that can do it and our digger actually taught him how to dig..
i still use a backhoe for everything like pools basements and pipe work i love it.
I have a question about the 1 piece pools. How do you handle getting them to the job then unloading and setting in the hole? Around here the hieght would be a big factor. Thanks
Fiberglass pools are junk!!! I have yet to see one installed that doesnt go off level. With a Good crew, with vinyl liners we are in and out in less than a week and it is about 2/3 cheaper than a fiberglass. In the 30 years we have been installing pools we have used loaders, backhoes and excavators, anything will work and when you are good they all work just as fast, exavator is eaiest but anything works!! Run what you brung!:usa