There's a bit of a back story to this barn foundation that I can explain later. But at this point two walls need to be removed and replaced. The plan is to replace them with concrete blocks. The footings and floor are still in good shape as best as I can tell. The south wall has some cracks but has not pushed in like the west and north walls. It is a walk out style so there is no east wall (which I believe is a contributing factor to the wall failures). I have dug out these two walls down to the footings. The blocks are 2'x2'x6' so there will be 4 layers of them.
Very nice. Cool to save an old building. We rebuilt our old classic barn, at that time, I posted it on a forum that has since collapsed. Here is a PDF scraped from the internet archive: https://baxsie.com/images/Barn/Barn_Thread.pdf
That’s a neat old barn. When was it built? I ran the numbers, and you need about Pennsylvania Amish Dudes to lift and move it. Keep us posted.
Nice work on your barn!
I think 12 or 13, I can't remember. We're going to use 4 Chinese bottle jacks, is that about the equivalent of your Amish friends?
Interesting project. Don't think I've seen a poured wall fail like that - From the pic it looks like the footing is intact and hasn't settled? Hard to tell in the picture. The walls I have seen fail are due to differential settlement of the soil under the footings which usually cause vertical cracks. What do you think the initial failure was? Freeze/thaw or poor concrete mix? Obviously lateral earth forces are the main problem at this point but something else probably caused it. Cool project - looking forward to the progress.
Appreciate your failure analysis input. Concrete is fascinating and I don’t know anything about it.
Well my failure analysis combined with $4 will buy you a hot cup of coffee..
When you have the new walls in place then I would suggest backfilling with material that has good drainage ability If frost/freezing is a thing where the barn is then the freeze/thaw worked thru the wall from inside So the end result is pushing the wall in with frost Maybe even throw some insulation against the outside of new walls
He is in frost country and yes, that building would get some special backfill attention with that walkout weak side.
Yep you guys are right. I'm planning crushed stone backfill for the entire height. If it had been a house with an enclosed and even partially heated basement I don't think this would have happened. Or even 4 walls and backfilled unheated would have been better. Wide open like that allowed the frost to really freeze the ground hard which obviously expanded and pushed on the wall. When water freezes it can exert 30,000 psi.
The open wall needed a few feet of concrete wall each side to support. 9" thick is unusual, wonder where they got the form ties? Is the floor poured inside the walls to resist inward movement? Has the look of a pour mixed on site. My father would quote an old builder: "Boss comes around, fivea to one. Boss goes away ninea to one." I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped pouring at end of day, started anew next day.
Block walls in VT are temporary below ground.
I'd form and pour it, but dang that is a lot of work. For sure put in a lintel beam across the daylight end, an I-beam that keeps the top of those walls at the corners in order. with the bottom doweled into the footing and the top spaced by a big I-beam, it would be stout.
X2. Mater I've got several lightly used I-beams down here I can let go cheap but the shipping is going to be a bit on the steep side. On a side note - Why spend so much to replace the foundation on an old barn? Sentimental value, mother in law suite? I could understand if it was the mother in law suite because I'd spend whatever to it took to keep her out of the main house.
I predict that you won't have to cut too many, if any rebar when you do the demo of those walls. When you lay the concrete blocks I would advise you to be real generous with the reinforcing wire. In my area it is called ladder wire because it looks like a ladder. Common practice is to lay wire on top of every fourth row. I would put it on top of every second row. Don't cut the outer wire when you do the corners. Bend it. Splice and twist the ones that are cut in the corners. IMHO of course.
Look at the permitting and replacement process, the vintage wood, the look. Re-creating that is a huge undertaking. Slip a new foundation under it and it is better than a new built thing IMO.
Guess it's a regional thing. I could go to one of the handful of local saw mills for the lumber and with a new build upgrade the windows, doors, etc. Probably wouldn't even permit it.. Interesting project none the less.
You guys are too funny! This barn is 12 or 13 years old. There's not much vintage about it. Yes the footings seem to be intact. I discovered that there is no vertical rebar in the walls above the short pieces that tie the wall to the footing: That, along with poor backfill material that didn't drain well are the cause of the failure as best as I can tell.
Yes it probably would have helped the corner stay in place if it had had a short return wall. The wall itself isn't 9" thick, just the end of the wall where they capped the end of the forms. The rest of the wall is 8" thick. The floor is poured inside the walls. It was not mixed on site, but delivered by Carroll concrete. If I remember correctly, the walls were all poured in one day.
Got a price for repouring these two walls - over $10k (from the same guy that didn't use any vertical rebar...)
Would they fit in a flat rate USPS box? The barn isn't really old, but is unsafe to be used with the walls caving in. We're just fixing it up so it can be used again, this time hopefully not cutting corners where it would cause so much trouble down the road.
There were horizontal rows of rebar: 2 at the top, and single spaced 2' apart down from there. Maybe double at the bottom, I didn't look. These are the type of blocks I'm going to use:
This is agricultural so no permits required. And yeah, it took 12 years of Vermont weather to look like that, pretty common around here. The barn itself is in fine shape except for where it was damaged from a pine tree that exploded when it was hit by lightning.
All the lumber was milled on the property, from trees on the property.
Today's progress
Wonder if it was backfilled too soon, loose material holding the water and a cold snap especially if it was late fall. Once it's craked its weak. Concrete take a lot longer to reach strength in cold weather.
Looks to me the shoe wasn't bolted to the top of concrete wall or am I missing something
It took 12 years for it to get this bad, moving a little each year. What do you mean by shoe? The sill plate was bolted to the wall. It's hard to see in the picture, but the j bolt broke out a section of the concrete because there was so much pressure on it.
Yeah the sill plate. I see it on today's progress.
Ok, I didn't know that was another name for it
Me neither. Call it a sill plate down here. So you are going to use the mafia blocks to rebuild the foundation wall or did I miss something?
I heard it both ways. Never gave it any thought
That is a really good argument for building codes, permitting, and inspections . If somebody bought that property and barn 6 years ago and thought that they were getting a good building, they would be feeling pretty ripped off when they found out that it didn't even last another decade.
It got backfilled with that clay, not drained away, and each successive frost just killed it. Ice makes infinite horsepower and each time it refills and re-attacks.
All the mafia blocks I have seen are made out of left over concrete that was returned to the readymix company from a pour. Some of it can be well into it's curing time. Some blocks are decent quality and some not so much. I saw one maybe more in your photo that I would guess won't last very long through very many freeze and thaw cycles.
Ah, yes, that's what we need, more government oversight ! ! !
In my world a shoe is at bottom of a stud wall. The one on the concrete foundation is a sill, sill plate. Shoe might be on the floor, or if no wooden floor, it'd be next layer horizontal on the sill.
Here it's a sill plate whether on a concrete wall, slab or second story wood floor.
Vermont is the most ruled State in the Nation............but little enforcement. I'm an electrician. I went through the licensing process the hard way. I had no influential connections. As the rules state, I worked summers during high school, but got no credit for that time. I began apprenticeship at 16 after high school graduation. Document 8000 hours, while attending 4 years night school. I then got the honor of taking the Journeyman's test. Another two year wait to take the Master's test. Got my Journeyman's license 1978, Master's 1980. Vermont doesn't require a license for 1 or 2 family homes. 2 family homes are to be inspected, but few are, mostly they fly under the radar. While all work is required to comply with Code, very little does. I believe they are even more lax with other trades & the odds of anyone voluntarily complying with building codes are slim. Plenty of builders work their carreers with no knowledge of any codes existing.
A sill, or sill plate rests flat on the foundation. Typically, a box sill rests on that, it closes all sides of the floor joists. Sub floor lays on top of the box sill & floor joists. Shoe goes on top of sub floor. Studs stand vertically on the shoe. A horizontal plate, usually two layers at top of studs. Second floor will have another box sill.
Hmm not here.
I don't think the horses and chickens will care what it's called...
Yes, that's the plan. I guess my first post wasn't very clear about what kind of blocks I will be using.
Yes there are certainly some blocks that aren't as good as others. If there are any that look questionable I won't use them.
Maybe there should be codes and inspections for equipment repair also to reduce the chances of getting ripped off buying a used piece of equipment...
I would hedge my bets on that build. stack the blocks, Get some allcrete and grout the joints, then apply some waterproofing after it cures, or apply a membrane. Then install footing drains all around, and some free draining material. Then the blocks get dry and stay dry forever. Frost can just $@^#$&B OFF!
Framed new homes for several years, never heard the term shoe when referring to sill plates, shoe molding when doing finish yes. But that's in these parts.
Started laying blocks yesterday
3/4" of rain and 50° on Friday melted a lot of snow, so now it's easier getting around with the rubber tracked Mecalac.
As much as I don't like the warm weather in winter, it does allow for some progress on this foundation. Unfortunately there is ice and snow on a lot of the blocks so we've had to melt of the mating surfaces with the torch so that it doesn't cause issues with the mortar. Sneaking the first top block under the building. Had to jack it up a few more inches to get clearance for the keyway: I set this full size block on top of the half block for about an hour and they were frozen solid together when I went back to pick it up. A few good whacks with the sledgehammer and the bottom one dropped away: Slowly but surely:
Have you devised a plan for the inevitable splash from the foundation larger than the barn?
I'd flash it with angled metal roof panels. Some blow in will get behind it, but leave it an out and 99% of water will go the way you want.
Id give it a good coat of paint or some oil because if water gets behind it will take a long time to dry out. I'd use any left over paint, color won't matter if you decide to cover it.
Do you remember if was it vibrated or was that pour before the time of vibration? Damn it now I have to Google how they did it before the vibrating whips
Not yet. Will probably use some sort of flashing, also crushed stone at the drip line to minimize splashing.
I don't believe it was vibrated but I could be wrong. It was poured in 2012 or 13 I think.
The blocks or the siding?
I was referring to the siding.
Concrete trucks weren't always a thing in rural areas. A concrete pour was a big undertaking. The leader of the project prepared everything in advance. Gravel was brought from the best deposit in the area, most wasn't suitable. Portland cement in bags was delivered. Needed a good supply of water, if it wasn't on site, a fire truck or two. A mixer was there, usually had to be repaired to use it. Forms were built, ramps in place, plenty of good rugged wheelbarrows. Many people were recruited for a weekend. In my childhood my father was involved in numerous pours. These were highly competent people there for a reason. A vibrator? what was that for? Forms were built free of obstructions. Steel was rare. The pour took many hours, many water or air pockets found their way to the surface on their own. People "puddled" the wet concrete to work bubbles out. Of maybe 50 foundations I was present for, beginning 65 years ago, I don't know of a failure to this day. A failed poured concrete foundation, somebody fouled up, cut a corner, designed it poorly.
I made a little more progress during January thaw. This beam required a pocket to be cut into one of the blocks: Concrete is much easier to work with than stone! It sits on its own three walls again: I still need to dig out the remaining poured wall so it can be backfilled with stone
The existing footing drain ended up under the blocks because they are wider than the poured wall. And I noticed a restriction in at least one place, so I decided to add another run of pipe outside the block walls. Mud on the outside: Stone on the inside: First wall about half backfilled:
Had to fix the water line that I broke when digging at the base of the hill above the barn. Was a little tough getting through the frost. (Forgot to take a picture until after I had bedded it in most of the way) I made two more plywood partitions so I could backfill this wall all at once: Burning the midnight oil (except it was only 17:30)
I found some unfrozen dirt under the frost layer: Smoothed everything up a bit: Piled up all the frost chunks so they're out of the way until May or whenever they decide to turn back into dirt: Good enough for now
In Peru, I don't think frost typically happens. We'd go to camp at Griffith Lake until trout season ended. We'd bury canned goods in a covered bucket under a heavy layer of leaves. Never showed evidence of freezing next spring. I remember 1971/1972 driving snowmobiles onto the roof of a camp. Dirt doesn't freeze under 10 feet of snow.
Nice little barn, see why it was rescued. Who lives there beefers or hay burners?
Oops, I guess I never replied to this question... Nobody lives in the barn at the moment. I think it will probably be for horses and maybe goats and chickens after everything is back in usable condition.
Finally back at it this week Hopefully the inch and a half of rain we got yesterday and today didn't wash any of it away...