I get construction industry spam on a regular basis and this got through the filters into my box. https://www.equipmentworld.com/equi...on-early-this-year?oly_enc_id=9541F2856812F0D The magazine is nothing but propaganda for the manufacturers but does provide some food for thought. The video is like all the rest spouting all the prospective positives about a new technology and none of the negative issues that always show up after someone purchases the product. What I'm looking for is some thoughts and opinions of the future of this product and others in the industry. Is battery power going to be the future?
The fact that a major part of "Diesel Progress" magazine this last year has been all about electric and hydrogen tech (with some diesel emissions info thrown in) says quite a bit on where the industry is going.
I think the Gov (State and Feds) are going to push this tech moving forward. I see them mandating a certain number or percentage of electric powered equipment on projects. They could also give companies that utilize electric equipment a bid advantage for using it. As they continue to mandate electric passenger vehicles, they will do the same with heavy equipment in whatever way they can influence the market. I have seen DOE do this with hand held equipment (plate compactors and jumping jacks) already. It is coming like it or not.
I've owned a Tesla electric car for 2.5 years so far. There are a lot of things about it that are wonderful. It takes being a little open minded to see them. However, my equipment work is mostly land clearing. No real good opportunities to charge anything for me. Charging a pack like on that backhoe would need about 12 hours at 40 amps/240 volts, so it could happen overnight on a circuit for powering a moderate sized welder. I don't know how many jobsites have access to the power needed to charge a couple of these machines. For my own use an electric machine could be great, but the charging end of things would stop my purchase.
The case guys were sure proud of that thing I asked about how we would charge it on jobs and was told that's not an issue I dont have that kinda power at my yard to charge that machine let alone 4 of them a night Deere also has jumped in this game and has built or is building an electric backhoe on paper as far as moving parts we should be excited about electric in my opinion no emission system and all but if it was more efficient than traditional power than the industry would convert itself because of cost but I think we are a long ways from that Infrastructure is what will be the problem power grids already have enough problems with demand here especially during summer I dont see pluging in industrial machines every night being an easy demand but more importantly access to power on a job in the dirt stages are none existent And if you need 12 hours charge for 8 hrs work it's not practical we have many days that we run 10 plus and hard iw would be willing to bet 8 hrs is not at 100 percent power
It would be easier for bigger companies as they could justify mobile recharge units or battery swaps. But any smaller guys would be paying someone to come out at night to charge a battery on site doesn't sound practical. Don't think there's too many yards that have enough power to charge anything like that either. Or the incredible hassle if a job is taking a bit longer then expected and the battery dies? No thanks. Even if it lasted 8 hours at 100%, what is that when it's 0F out, 6 hours? Be useless in colder temps.
This could be a positive for my operation - wait stay with me. Future scenario - we've been slammed with rain for 3 weeks straight and behind on the current job all the while the GC for the next job could care less and demands we be on their job TODAY - ya'll know how that goes. Now all it will take is a simple drive by the site and call the GC saying you haven't hooked up the 240V temporary power for our equipment so call me back when have. Seriously if this electric equipment nonsense is coming too fruition who is going to be responsible for the job site temp power and the bill? Charging these new fangled electric diggers is going to cost some serous $$. How does that play out in the design, bid, build world? Whose general conditions does this cost get added to? However in the end we all know that we will pay for it.
I was also looking at all the greenhouse area in the cab as well. How many BTUs of AC are you going to need to keep that tolerable for an operator and how much time will that suck out of the batteries. The motor mouth was also talking reduced maintenance. Just because there isn't a diesel engine in there doesn't mean there is no maintenance. You still have to keep things like battery connections cleaned, motor cooling passages filtered and clean, hydraulic oil cool. Does this thing have a transmission? Plenty of oils to change. I noticed in the video that the machine doesn't move the implements like I've seen the standard machines do. Was the the guy in the cab doing that? The next issue is who can work on them? Does one have to be an electrician and carry a license when a problem comes up? How long do you think the battery packs will last? Vibration and bouncing are the worst thing in the world on batteries. How much would they cost and will new batteries be available? I was talking to a Deere sales rep last week who said they have an electric or hybrid electric loader they have been demoing out. People loved the thing but they don't have a production time yet. Again, another sales pitch.
It would work for companies who have enough pieces of equipment to justify adding power to charge machines, but not too many that it's impossible to have that much power, but not so few they can't justify chargers. Also consider probably every brand will use a different plug so it's not too easy. Also has to be someone who doesn't work equipment long days, is in a place where it doesn't get cold in the winter, and equipment back at the yard every night. So probably 1% of companies. Aside from the weather here I think the gas company as well as the power/water company here could probably reasonably use something like that. Equipment is always back at the yard, and no one works very long in a day, and they have the ability to raise taxes/rates on everyone to pay for whatever they want. The commercial jobsite i'm on I couldn't even get the block heater plugged in for my mini hoe FFS...... There is not a single general here who would ever consider letting you plug in equipment like that. Are you crazy? If it costs more then a dollar it's too much money.
There was an earlier thread on this machine after last years Conexpo. Along with what others are saying, how big of a portable generator do you need and how long does it take to charge? The generator might use just as much fuel and create just as much emissions as the machine would. If there's residences near by, people would complain about the noise all night from the generator. Changing batteries would be a little more complicated than a cordless driver. Vandalism is already a big problem, now you've got to deal with meth heads stealing your power cords and copper out of the machine. For certain applications like working inside a building could be a great idea. They make electric greens mowers for golf courses so there's no noise at 6am but most courses will have at least 2 machines so they would only need to run for about 2 hours and the batteries are much smaller. Battery only units run for about 3 3/4 hours and take up to 5 hours to charge. They also have hybrid models with an engine to keep the batteries up. I think the battery only models have the charger mounted on the machine. Also saw where they mention the batteries can be over discharged.
The horse and steam contractors must be smiling sadly in their graves, seeing where we've all got to with this. Continuing to burn carbon rich fuels into any kind of future appears to be out of the question at this point, if you follow any of the news from world science groups and agencies such as NASA, seems they're all on same hymn sheet now. So battery power is where the hopes are pinned, until a better plan comes along. But as said, there's going to be even more singing hot wires running all over the world to take up the batten carried by diesel. Hard to imagine the quantities of batteries and "clean" electricity required. The world's navies must have valid experience of this with the quiet submarines. Perhaps it's not impossible.
As it stands, I'm not a fan of the current battery tech. Given the kind of operations heavy equipment is used in, I think hydrogen fuel cell technology would be better. It requires the hydrogen fuelling stations, but fill up time is minutes, not hours. Exhaust is water. That said, if battery technology can make some serious leaps and bounds and get 90% charge to 15-30mins, I can see that working too. The grid will have to be seriously built up to allow for it all though. It'd be a bit ironic to have all this electric equipment charged by a massive diesel genset...
Silent subs run on electricity generated by nuclear power. Maybe that is the answer for the future?
Electric forklifts have been around for a very long time, and they work well........in a warehouse. Along with charging issue (truck mounted generators?), I think the HVAC system would be a challenge as mentioned.
The generators will not be the answer in the long run it will fall into commercial work having to provide power and residential work being a royal pain But look at power infrastructure alone just for a rental company that this demand would require that's huge money just to set up one yard
If this is accurate, it would be unbelievable. 12 hours charging 40 amps @ 240 volts would be roughly 115 kWh of power. At $.08 per kW, it would cost about $10 per day to charge. Now, I don't own a diesel hoe that would be comparable, but I'm guessing 1.5-2 gal per hour might be average fuel consumption, so 1.5 x 12 is 18 gallons of fuel, 18 x $2 would be $36 per day for fuel. There is no way I could believe a electric hoe could be ran for a third the cost. Someone correct me if my math is wrong?
That to me is what is interesting. Renewable power as we know it isn't even close to meeting the needs today at the current rate of power usage. Add more electric cars and heavy equipment it wont get easier. These solar power stations cant stay solvent now. So at least until we find a better way or embrace Nuclear power again, we will burn fossil fuels to create electricity so that citizens can buy electric cars so they feel better about themselves in relation to the environment. I guess that works if you don't think to deeply about it. The US Army had GM build a prototype of their Colorado ZR2 to be run of H. According to what I read, pretty amazing vehicle, but the Army backed away from H. The ZR2ish transport vehicle they are building is running off of diesel and they just started building them for the Army. I never read on why the Army didn't pursue the Hydrogen option. Interested enough to pay for a prototype apparently, but changed their mind. Jobsites will have to change as we know them as electrically powered machines become more normal (or required may be a better word). Temp power brought in metered for construction as one of the first things to get done. I am sure California will show us how it can/will be done (I say that mockingly).
Deere put out the 944K years ago. It's diesel-electric, but I don't think it has any high voltage batteries. I don't know how many they've built, but there are 6 used for sale on machinery trader right now.
Think about dead batteries over 2 miles into a swamp while you have been stuck in the mud. That is NOT going to fly. Anywhere away from the grid, not a wise choice. You need portable fuel cells that make rotary power and today we have that in abundance - diesel engines. There is no way batteries could be a viable option in my line of work. I'm usually the first on a site and clearing the way for electric to be brought in, eventually. This battery talk is nothing more than cozy, feel good talk for the greenies. My business runs on Liberal Tree Hugger tears and I love it! Few things better than the sound of screaming trees as they are pulled apart, fiber by fiber. I just love the questions and comments by the green crowd. "That's a shame. That should be made into lumber or paper. What a waste." Ask them to pick up a chain saw and start the hand work, what a face they make. They want the power, the roads and all of the nice things that come from it but they don't want to make changes to allow it. Commercial sites like mining or even light construction in the city, I can see battery power working in the future with some good success stories. For those of us working away from the grid, unless a magic solar charger comes about with 1 hour charge times that last over 10 work hours, not gonna happen. How heavy is 300+ hp of battery power for 12 hours anyways?
For those of us working away from the grid, unless a magic solar charger comes about with 1 hour charge times that last over 10 work hours, not gonna happen. How heavy is 300+ hp of battery power for 12 hours anyways? Exactly!
I will speak to deeres plan that I know of for the most part was made in response to case plans from what I know it's a power company that is doing the testing up in the northeast I would think this is a 20 plus year industry change cause the tech in batterys needs to increase so the verdict will still be out on weather the industry will adapt
The thing about electric machines, is that it opens the door to efficiency. If you can shrink the systems and only run what is needed, when needed, total energy consumption will be reduced. I bet if you actually measured energy requirements of an average shovel or equipment, the energy usage isn't as technically efficient as it could be. Electric opens up the door to running multiple parallel systems. So that if all you're doing is swinging, only that circuit is active.Engines are sized to run multiple functions at once, hence technically oversized if only a single function is being used. An excavator, and a lot of heavy equipment, is a perfect example where mass isn't a bad thing, it's beneficial. So a massive battery pack could offset counterweight requirements, and could also allow for lowering of C of G. A lot of careful work will need to be done to isolate the battery packs. A massive complicated battery pack will isn't going to last in a high vibration environment. All that said, still have the charging issue...Portable nuke power would be kickass, but somehow I don't think that'll ever happen.
I don't think size or weight would be a problem on a track hoe that isn't zero swing. Take away the engine and counterweight and you got a ton of space and need a lot of weight to replace them.
That's why I brought the question up. Just the temp power setup would be $$$ let alone the power used to charge 4-5 pieces of yellow iron every day on a small commercial job. This setup would big a huge increase in the cost of general conditions of any project, the larger the project the more $$ it'll cost. I drove through a residential project close to my house today and they had 4 - 740B Cat 6x6's, brand new Kommie 350i decked out, Kommie 400, D6N, Kommie D65, Hamm padfoot and 4 hard rock drills on excavators where they were blasting. Now how in the hell are they going to charge that much iron on a daily basis in a master planned development where the UG power lines were spec'd for residential development?
Realize there is a strong likelyhood lots of this equipment will run smaller charging gensets to maintain the battery system while operating. This way they can avoid some of the emissions standards with a 49hp engine and keep the system maintained and reduce overnight charges. All I know is as a generator guy, it's all job security to me.
Locomotives are electric powered. Don't be fooled, that diesel engine you hear and see belching out black smoke is just its charging system, nothing more. Of course, when you're a locomotive, weight is your friend.
I don't believe it actually charges anything. It is a chemical conversion through mechanical means into motive force. It doesn't actually charge anything unless a person decides through ignorance, stupidity or misfortune to get between any of the power forms of chemical to motive force. You can get drowned, burned, shocked or run over and there still wouldn't be any batteries to be charged.
Welp only thing I know is that besides charging time can’t be faster than discharging times so... t = {C x (V0 - V1)} / I t = 0.5 x C x (V02 - V12) / P t Discharge time (sec.) C Capacitance (F) V0 Charge voltage (V) V1 Discharge voltage (V) Vb Nominal battery voltage (V) I Discharge current (A) R Discharge resistance (Ω) P power (W) which means capacity of what goes out can only go back in and that doesn’t mean it won’t hurt the batteries doing so.
A diesel electric system like a locomotive just uses electrics for the drive instead of mechanical means. No different than electric drive haul trucks. A smaller engine may drive a generator to charge a battery electric system but to provide enough power to run the system would require pretty much the same size engine as the mechanical version so there would be no need for batteries.
Sounds to me like a good reason to avoid commercial work I have no patience for how stupid and cheap all the big GC's are here. I know I wouldn't be sad to never set foot on another one. Current site, you are supposed to be wearing a mask inside the cab while operating equipment, even if only one operator, and if caught you're gone no warnings. Not sure why i'm still there, I don't even wear a mask outside, the stupidity of requiring people to wear a mask outside when no one else is within 100' of you boggles the mind.....
Slightly different situation. Locos cross the line where it becomes more efficient to run a generator to power electric drive motors, than it would be to have a mechanical powertrain. If it was more efficient for smaller vehicles/plant, manufacturers would already be doing it.
This kind of thing works for indoor operations and light utility use in cities and maybe suburbia. You look at man lifts. You always find them dead when you need them. At least those you can snake a drop cord to them and get them charged. Imagine the lazy “operator” forgetting to charge the backhoe constantly and you need it first thing in the morning. Diesel you can fuel up and be gone in less than 10 minutes. Doesn’t work the same way for the ‘lectric, not at all, unless you have swappable battery packs ready to go and the crane to install them. now diesel-electric machines like the D6 XE? Infinitely more viable because you aren’t depending on a big juice charger. But it still has to be the he right machine for it. Smaller equipment it doesn’t make any sense either.
What I have seen is that electrical systems on equipment seem to be way over engineered. When I started as a mechanic there was one wire from the ignition switch down to the starter relay. I was on a machine the other day that required 8 relays to function before it would start. I have a customer with a Deere 644K Hybrid, sweet running and smooth operating machine. Diesel engine running a generator which runs an electric motor to an all mechanical powertrain. Seems a bit complicated but it does operate smoother and get better fuel usage. In the past I've worked on log processors ect. with cords running from the cab to the head and we all know how well electrical cords ect. hold up in the logging industry. I now work on a number of aerial lifts and 80-90 percent of the problems are electrical on machines with just a few thousand hours on them. Electric drive sounds good in theory but I always say that theory and murphy are brothers.
I think the eventual answer is going to be hydrogen fuel cells...for both vehicles & heavy equipment. Batteries are just a stepping stone...
What's the real science behind hydrogen and why it's not being used
As I understand it it has issues with return of energy.
Shimmy your math is right. My Tesla has a 100kW battery pack. I charge it on 208v, it draws 32 amps, and charge time from 5% to 100% charge is around 14 hours. Our power is about 10.6 cents/kWh, so worst case it could cost me $10.60 to travel 300 miles. Fortunately we have solar panels and we can often charge the car for only what our power company calls the "avoided cost", which is what they pay me for power I make and sell back to them. That's .045 cents/kWh. I can drive 300 miles for about $4.50. This electric backhoe may not be for everyone, but it ain't all bad either. If it's built well, it will be cheap to operate and reliable.
Liebherr has a new all electric crawler just out, has electric cords plugging into the under carriage. Better pay attention when you go to crawl ahead. That said, I'd love a AT that had a diesel for down the road, and a battery/ electric drive when at the jobsite. Fire up the big lower if you need to charge the battery. Electric is getting popular with the contractors working in london, they have emissions restrictions. I've read articles on telehandlers, manlifts, etc. that are all electric. Even saw a carrydeck that would be great for in plant work. Electric would eliminate a lot of our idling time in the crane application. And the full torque at 1 rpm that electric provides is hard to beat. I'm hoping I can skip from my tier 1 old school equipment straight to no emission equipment, and miss the in between bad parts. I'd prefer someone else with deeper pockets to do the testing and working out the bugs.
And when the power goes out on your house you can back feed the Tesla into your home to power it up and same as such for electric equipment instead of a generator that might not work due to stuck float or clogged jet. Bet you didn't know you can't charge your Tesla in temperatures below 32 degrees Fahrenheit without the coolant heater on board that flows warming coolant around the batteries. Charging lithium in below freezing temperatures will damage them.
Just ran into this problem a day ago. After using a battery tool outside, swapped the battery into the charger. Charger said "NO go" with a red light. Warm the discharged battery, and the charger did its job with a happy green light.
Bet you didn't know I've already charged the car successfully at temps colder than 32. Something in there works fine.
Yes that would be the automatic on board battery heater. It takes a substantial amount of your charge to keep the battery warm. I’ve heard as much as 1800 watts. If you leave the car outside in the winter it’s burning up your charge all day long to keep the battery warm. If you have an electric car you really need a heated garage to keep it in. I wonder what the cost of keeping the battery warm would be on a fleet of construction equipment at -40 while the job is shutdown for holidays. Also if you have an electric hoe that’s parked outside for long periods in the winter who is going to keep it plugged in sucking power to stay warm. Not sure if you can just let them sit dead and frozen . Maybe it’s not a problem for battery life.
I bet you I did know that I have lived in Georgia, went to Basic/AIT there and R.A.S.P. along few other schools Uncle Sam has there so I know the temperatures well there.
You can about imagine how often this cord is going to get run over or damaged. I could see it being nice on a job that the crane didn't move for 3 months. But it would be a pain in the rear to set tilt ups or steel on a big building when you're moving all around. Who has a 500' long extension cord to charge with? Think the general contractor is going to put outlets around the jobsite to charge it?
Sure it's more popular when the government is mandating it...
Just to be devils advocate, could you image how big of a diesel engine you'd need to run a walking dragline. The largest, Big Muskie, had the equivalent of 62,900 H.P. It used the same power as a town of 27,500 people. Not only were the drag cables 5" diameter, the power cord was too! In some cases electric power is better.
In my state any electric on road vehicle gets billed each year for mileage on a per mile basis because they are not paying fuel tax to maintain the roads, so instead they are billed for the road usage, most forget to mention that part of the costs. So we switch to electric machines, if the charging rate is accurate and I'm running a dozen machines on any given jobsite, times 40 amps per machine, I don't think even the local power companies are prepared to attempt to give anywhere near that kind of power to any rural area, let alone any single rural customer to even come close to meeting the charging demand, let alone all their rural customers. Many of the larger hog and dairy setups are forced to go with standby generators now due limited electric power that power companies can provide, basically, each sites power demands far exceed even the power companies capabilities to supply it on a daily basis. One of the local electric companies now has one large single user, he's a farmer with livestock setups everywhere throughout the electric companies territory, he's been told if he builds anymore setups, he has to provide all his own power for each new setup and go off grid, its impossible for the power company to even come close to meeting his demand for power, and they also serve some very large towns and cities as well, many are being told no when it comes to adding more power, more and larger amp service entrances, its just not possible at this time to provide the power, the near future isn't looking good either. So in my area, the demand for power far exceeds the supply, all new transmission lines would have to built, new plants would have to go online after being built, new substations installed and the costs skyrocket from there.................and now everyone thinks we should go all electric, just whom is going to provide all this power and how is the question I have. I've been told they decommissioned the local nuke plant, its pretty much coal fired now, so when people talk about electric cars being green, then they plug them into the grid, which is coal fired, where does the green portion enter into it?
Not only road tax but the cost of fuel is more in taxes than the fuel portion of the price. How are they going to compensate for that? In Canada we have Federal and Provincial tax on fuel and most provinces also have a carbon tax. Thankfully Alberta repealed the federal carbon tax. Even if they have rebates for carbon taxes, the administration cost's negate the gains from the increased taxes. That is/was the case with the GST. Some people were suggesting a flat 2 or 3% GST for everyone and no rebates. Anything with large numbers of users, the Gov't. wants their share of the action. They don't want people to stop smoking or drinking. They would lose too much on taxes. They probably hate that they can't tax all the bottled water sold or charge a tax for cleaner air. Maybe with more electric vehicles they will introduce a cleaner air tax???
Remember the ones that advocate for it the loudest think that waving a magic wand makes it so. They don’t care about nor understand infrastructure or real life. Just like you can tell them that solar and wind can’t provide reliable, steady grid power due to the varied output till you are blue in the face and they will look at you, nod, and then say “we need more wind and solar power”
I was just in my local Stihl shop and flicked through a pamphlet while waiting for the guy to get my parts. Advertised was an electric ride-on mower, $8000NZD and the battery lasts 1 hour, with a 4 hour charge time. I think the technology has a long way to go until it becomes practicable for the average person
Elon Musk admitted that the "grid" can't handle the increasing number of electric cars. Kiwi-truckwit is correct. The technology has a long was to go.
Coal mining for steam is getting closer to dead all the time. I attended a conference this morning where an economist stated that the people under thirty have stars in their eyes talking about electric generation and infrastructure. I talked to one of my sales rep friends who was of the sentiment that if it only takes five minutes or so to fill up a gas tank on a car but it takes around four hours to recharge an electric car, people won't be inclined to purchase one. The economist stated that electricity in an urban setting might make sense as travel is somewhat within the range of an electric. Both guys said the current power grid is not built for that kind of use. California already has the problem of line droop in hot weather causing wild fires. Put a million electric cars on top of that charging batteries every night, add in all the construction machinery charging batteries and what you have is problems just keeping the lights on at night and the computer running.
Try explaining that to the whiz kids who think electric cars, solar, and wind cure all ills. They have no concept of the problems and needs of society, especially the needs of the quietly productive parts that keep the rest running. If these idiots knew farm tractors existed they’d mandate them to be all electric and then complain when we all starve because there isn’t enough food.
The current generation of people just don't understand the scale of modern life. I have encountered several instances of people advocating using car batteries for household power. They don't realize the engine actually charges the battery. Nor does the general public have any idea of how much power modern life requires. Witness the number of people asking about running the microwave & A/C in their RV on a battery (on camping forums) As for solar and wind power, if it weren't for the tax subsidies and gov't mandates, they would be scrapped years ago. Remember the poster that was asking about cutting up wind turbine blades ?? People just don't understand fatigue life and cutting 4 inches of fiberglass for landfill disposal. Our education system is doing a poor job of education while doing well at political indoctrination.
What we are witnessing folks is an industry that is concerned with change and manufacturers that dont want to be left behind no one has an answer for any of the draw backs on electric cars let alone electric equipment and what's more adverse to the standard market is the market is not looking to adapt from it's current basis so just like the development of conventional machinery the next gen equipment is going to have major growing pains and be more dependent on conditions or outside of market influences to bring about any need for change because it is a pipe dream from cost effective at the moment
I think electric everything is good for california. Overload their grid so badly there is non stop black outs, and stop shipping in dirty fuel. Let all them tree huggers live in the dark with no a/c and no where to charge their fancy EV.
Down side of that is there will be a huge exodus of refugees to the other states. Bringing their voting pattern and attitudes. Keep them in California.
If an average backhoe is 100 hp and it takes 40 amps on 240 power overnight to charge, I think that was the figure given out before, just to charge SOME of my machines, by no means all, but some would require 800 amps of 240 power overnight to charge, if just those machines were on one jobsite sitting, first off in order to get them near the main service entrance pole in a rural yard would take pickup loads of power cords to reach them all, second, nobody's yard could possible fit them all in, third, the average service entrance size in my area is 200 amps, some of the larger farmers have up to 1000 amps of service, some at 1200 amps or more, but they need that for themselves, that's the reason why they have it that large now, there is nothing left over for me to use. Toss in many have three phase power, which in turn would need to be converted back to single phase to charge machines, then toss on 220, 230, 240 power depending on where your at and what's popular, some have 440 power and a few are now at 880 power all who would need to have converters or I'd have to have converters to do the changeover to charge my stuff. The alternative is to provide my own power, with a self contained power unit, now if I split up the machine on multiple jobsites, that means I'll need several generators, of multiple sizes to get the job done, I think if I figured correctly it would take 12 generators of varying sizes for me alone to charge my machines, all would have to towable behind a pickup, the larger ones would be semi pulled and then on top of that I'd need backup units in case [or when] they were in need of repair. On top of this I'd have hire a dedicated electrician to keep them going and operating, especially with the newer electronics on them and with built in shut downs for everything, someone would have to monitor them all night long via internet, except for about half the sites and places I work, that don't get a signal, those sites someone would have to drive to several times per night to check to make sure the generators were working properly. Couple this to the fact I do work in about a 100 mile radius of my shop, so the person doing the checking could possibly travel 4-500 miles per night easily checking on the charging setups so we could run and operate the next morning. All this to save what exactly?? time, fuel, cheaper to operate, be more efficient, labor savings, better for the environment?? what?? Now just like electric cars, I would then be more green, so instead of burning gas or diesel which is bad [fossil fuels] I'd be using diesel generators instead?, or if I could plug them into the grid somewhere, which right now is highly unlikely, I'd be using electricity generated off the grid, which is coal fired, also fossil fuel. Someone explain to me exactly who thinks this makes any sense?? I know the discussion is about a backhoe, but one piece leads to the next and so on and so fourth, but the problem is still the same, with one piece, ten or 50, the only thing different is the size of the problems involved.
This is the crux of the problem. Most of the US population lives in a city. City dwellers have lost perspective on food production, energy use, transportation, distribution, and self reliance. Everything comes to them. Water out of a tap, lights at a switch, meat in plastic, drinks in a bottle, restaurant via Grub-hub, transport via taxi or mass transit, call someone for help in almost all cases. AND they vote...
I just don't see how say a logging operation working somewhere remote would be able to operate electric machines? Diesel generators I guess???? I was reading an article yesterday from Europe that said if one were to factor in the entire environmental impact of an electric car vs a diesel car, it would take on average of 270,000 kilometers before the electric car showed a better environmental impact. It then went on to state the average car in Europe lasts about 180,000 kilometers. I'm all for cleaner technology and preserving the planet but people really need to look at things realistically. Its going to take a lot of upgrades to the electrical grid and power generation in order to support a mass adoption of electric vehicles. Then you need to look at the tax aspect. Like Welder Dave mentioned, fuel here is taxed to nuts. I can't see electricity be given a free pass from taxes. I could see the government requiring odometer reporting and charging taxes based on mileage driven.
Charging equipment with generators makes it absolutely pointless. So we are going to kill any efficiency gains plus add more material and cost not to mention complexity just to “feel good” Insanity.
Exactly. Reality is lost they only see what is in front of them and then they don’t think logically they are all about emotions. No concept of how the world actually works just “Well I feel...” and then get mad at you when you tell them “Well you feel wrong because that’s not how it works”
I will try and keep this nonpolitical but.... Biden killed the Keystone pipeline which I am sure everyone here knows, but they are also about to stop all further oil and gas leases on Gov. land and already increasing the CAFE requirements on passenger cars. The Paris Climate Accord is back in our lives. It relates to the topic of this thread like this, the cost of fuel is going up, likely way up. Electric cars and likely heavy equipment along with it is coming and it is going to come faster than perhaps any of us realize. Electric vehicles will quickly be forced upon us (either by forcing extremely high fuel prices or regulation) and they don't give two shitts about how it effects us or the economy. The comments about vast numbers of Americans having no idea who things gets done outside in the real world are spot on. However that isn't going to change what is coming for all of us, both privately and in the running of our businesses. Taxes, fuel costs, regulations and bureaucracy have always been a part of working in the dirt business, I think we can anticipate these issues on a level that we have yet to see. The ambitiousness of this movement is incredible. We shall see how this plays, but I think we can anticipate the phasing out of fossil fuels immediately whether we as a country are ready for that or not.
So airline travel will likely have huge increases and what about trains delivering goods? Curious what BS they will use to justify a new tax to make up for the loss of fuel tax, a low pollution tax?
You guys are absolutely right, those with little to no clue about anything vote through bills that affect us all everywhere, how it gets implemented is not really there problem, that's our problem. My grandpa used to say there are two kinds of people in this world, those with the smart mouths and brains and those that roll up their sleeves, do the work, implement those ideas and pay for it all. I think that saying still applies today. Whats coming, the way I see it, is far more in the "idea" category than in the "reality" category. Not to say its all going to be bad, everything starts with an idea, the issue I see coming is in today's age, everyone wants everything to be "instant" not in a few years or a few decades kind of thing. Will battery technology get there, in the future I'm sure it will, but no matter how or what happens, the efficiency will have to be far greater than is even in existence today or in the near future for that matter. The whole diesel electric idea, when they were first talking about putting them in semi trucks, they bragged they could run the generators for an over the road truck with a small 80 hp four cylinder diesel engine, eliminate the transmission, drive line and differentials lowering the total overall weight of the truck and increasing its efficiency, what was that 25 years ago now? Did anyone actually build this semi and is it being run with a small four cylinder diesel engine pulling 80,000 plus lbs around? I've never heard about it if it has happened, anyone want to shed some light on it if it has, sure would be nice if it were a reality today. I see the battery technology going to same route, take a battery out of the hand held power tool and most expect to be able to stick that same battery into the port on the dash of their car and run the car for 500 miles and use the alternator [that's not there] to keep that battery charged the whole time, seriously I've been told this by college graduates and its what they believe, or have been brain washed to believe is the technology available today, its just government oppression that keeps that technology from us in order to feed the large oil companies and fat cats making millions off the people?? They also think you can hook your battery that's already in the backhoe, [used to start it] and instead of starting the backhoe, they feel that battery will run the backhoe for an entire day by itself [electric backhoe], this is the level of brainwashing these kids today have been taught and what they truly believe is out there for technology. Now can it be, maybe someday, but before that can happen, I'm thinking someone smarter than Einstein will have to come up with some far greater calculations for energy conversion, but most don't or won't understand that. Political or not, this is the generation and thinking that is going to implement a lot of stuff to "attempt" to make it happen. Like I told the kids who were telling me all this idiotic stuff, I said great, but your forgetting a few things, first you can vote it through, next you can then realize its not an instant reality and last, in your lifetime you get to pay for it all, weather you have it or not, only then will you realize what you did to yourself and all others and when it doesn't happen, you can then blame everyone who's long dead. I'm not sure how many trillions more we should spend on education if the past how many trillions have kicked out high school and college graduates who are this smart now.
I had one science and physics teacher in high school tell us that a 100mpg carb existed but the greedy oil companies suppressed it and then a physics professor in college tell me that DeLoreans were invisible to police radar which made them popular so the production had to be outlawed. These whack jobs who should know better are putting all kinds of physically impossible ideas into kids heads. The rise in gas prices from what happened this past week will be blamed exclusively on the “fat cat greedy oil companies” by the economically illiterate crowd. Ignoring the fact that if oil companies were so greedy prices would never have dropped in the first place. The idiots also don’t understand that a company exists to make money, not make them feel good emotionally. It is literally the only reason for a company to exist. Providing wages in exchange for labor is how a company benefits a worker. Nothing more, nothing less. They have no concept of how economics work at all and are stuck at the kindergarten level of how things work. As someone who actually does understand stuff it’s frustrating to watch. They get their education from people who have lived their entire adult life in a sheltered academia life.
As I've said before, I believe batteries are only a stop-gap measure before we get to hydrogen fuel cells... And I agree that the electric grid is no where near robust enough now to handle millions of rechargers. Off setting this is the fact that most recharging will probably happen at night, when there is usually excess generating power available & the grid is under utilized. Also, there is already a quiet push to build more pump-storage facilities to bolster peak power demand.
The Keystone pipeline was proposed only to ship oil to refineries in the US and then to export that Canadian oil out. The pipeline provides little economic benefit to anyone in the US outside of the few refinery and port district jobs it might have provided. As far as a pipeline through the US for Canadian benefit goes, Canada should be building their own refineries and pipelines through their own country to their own port facilities. The US is a net exporter of oil already. The price of oil will go up as demand rises no matter what. It's the states that add taxes onto the price in an effort to maintain highways. As far as cars and trucks go, I look for more hybrid systems to come on line with battery assist until something like hydrogen can start being viable. The problem with hydrogen is the cost of extracting it out of water and then a viable infrastructure that can dispense it. A total electric transportation system though is always ten years down the road. It will be that way tomorrow, next week, next month, next year and ten years from now. So how could the electric backhoe be made to work? Can you make it hybrid with a diesel for traveling and electric for using the implements or maybe the other way around? Would that be an energy savings? What about more use of accumulators along with the electrics. I know that as a country we are moving forward and that there will be issues to work through. Using energy efficiently will be the main driver or the key asset to keep us all in motion. It is pretty clear that the status quo is changing and many are going resist that change. My idea with the thread was to identify the issues with current proposed power systems. True American ideals would be thinking of ways to overcome those issues. Instead we are ending up with a bitch session of why nothing will work.
My father has a little diesel gmc canyon and really likes it. A few weeks ago it was at the dealer to get some work done and they gave him a chevy Bolt. He drove that around for a week and loved it. The regenerative braking worked amazing and the best part was when you got in at -15 it blows hot air right away. We pay 6 cents a kilowatt hour so when he did the math it worked out to basicly nothing to charge. He has decided when my mothers escape gets rough the next one will be a fully electric. Thats from a man who always had nova's with a built 396 and and honda 750ss bikes.
The beauty of the marketplace is that it will be sorted out as soon as it is necessary. The frustration is that it will not happen before it is necessary. The old dinosaurs will feel some pain by not keeping their ear to the ground and getting with the program as things change. Right now I do not see things changing drastically any time soon. If it was going to happen, then there would not be any necessity for all these Rube Goldberg Tier 4 contraptions. No one would buy them if there was something better available. But there isn't. I work in the off grid power industry. Huge batteries that power a house for days or more. They are huge and very expensive. And even with the best solar, the customer still needs a generator for the cloudy times in winter. Diesel or propane.
https://www.thestreet.com/investing/polaris-bullish-ratings-morgan-stanley-bmo
At 30, I'm old dinosaur. I'll probably be "that guy" paying $6/litre for gas just because V8
Reading the specs. on the Polaris electric UTV it uses 8 batteries they say can last up to 4 years. They will last about 2 hours/50 miles (in max. range) between charges and takes 8 hours to charge but a quick charger will reduce that about 40%. Don't think the technology for electrics is there yet. I can see the headlines, search for snowmobilers on as it's expected their batteries went dead.
I had read that we are no longer a net exporter of oil. I don't know if that is true or not, however without approving drill permits on Fed ground or fracking we certainly will be back to importing oil.
which in turns opens the door for another “blood for oil” happy fun time in the Middle East plus puts us at the mercy of the OPEC cartel.
If only there was another place more ethical to get oil from, possibly through a line of some kind.....
And less expensive too.
But think of the poor starving Military Industrial complex when there is no Endless War! Those kids aren’t going to drone strike themselves.
Fixed it for ya.
We could even refine it here. Just ship it to Burnaby, then tanker it through the Panama canal to the east coast. We don't need no stinkin' pipeline
There is a friend of mine that worked building oil refiners and such. Said there was a museum of that kind of stuff. Exon in Pa maybe. I would have to ask him. I had a 58 Plymouth that got 17 MPG at 70 MPH. That weighs about the same as my 2019 F150 which gets about 18.5 MPG. Some things have not progressed much.
Search petroleum pipe lines in the US. They are already everywhere. The one I worked on from Savannah to Elberton was not even on the map.
Its kind of an inside joke. We've tried getting a pipeline from Alberta to the refineries on the east coast but there's too much opposition to it. Instead last year they loaded a tanker on the BC coast and shipped it to eastern Canada via the Panama Canal. Just poking fun at how inefficient it was.
Pipelines are the cheapest way to move any liquid, yes there are a lot of pipelines in the US now, but they are all maxed out for capacity, from natural gas to the liquids pipelines, our need for energy is much greater than it was 50 years ago when most of the pipelines were built, shortages are all the time. Most home owners or city people don't know or realize anything is shorted, that's because they take priority over anything else. The fall of 19 was a good example, all farmers were shut off and shut down due the shortage of LP gas, anyone on natural gas was shut off as well, to keep the cities fed and everyone's home warm. This isn't new by any means and its not an isolated incidence either, it happens all the time. Most pipelines were built over 50 years ago, and yet people seem to think for some reason our energy consumption has stayed the same or gone down, it hasn't its gone up, way up, farmers yields have increased three fold or more in the last half century, that many more bushels to dry, more homes have gone up, more to heat, cities have expanded, also more to heat and the list just continues, yet pipelines don't or can't expand, so its trucked instead or worse yet, by rail. As a contractor, the whole concept of pipelines is a mixed one, first I hate them and having to deal with and dig around them all the time is beyond a pain, yet I need to fuel they bring near me so I can run my machines, heat my house and dry my crops. There are two sides to the keystone pipeline, some hate it, some love it depending on which side your on, most states were up for the revenue they'd get off it via the taxes it provided and nothing for expenses verses trucking it all over the roads, next is, before it gets to the gulf, it first has to go through the US, meaning before anything can be exported, its on US soil first and controlled by the US, so if we need the oil 50 years from now, it won't be exported at all or ever. Some feel its like putting a pipeline through your property up to your house and it ends there and can then be pumped out...........or your getting it first before any is pumped out kind of thinking, if its abandoned and not pumping Canadian oil, in the future it can move other liquids, which are badly needed across the US even though most don't know it or realize it. Jobs when building and once done will still be created and every hour it will generate revenue no matter what. So John is partly right, basically it shouldn't go across the US to export someone else's oil, but on the other hand, who in their right mind would ever pump their product via another country for export that the other country controls the spigot end so to speak? How about it, every drop of oil exported from the middle east would first go through the United States before its put onto any ship or vessel, I think it would sure be good for the US and I don't think we'd be having so many issues dealing with everyone over there either, but that's just my opinion, sure others have far different one's.
I have no issues with pipelines built in the US for carrying US products for US consumption and that carry US responsibilities for safety. At least someone in the US will be responsible for any problems they cause. Pipelines built for and owned by other nations is a different story. Is Canada going to be responsible for any and all the issues that may surround this pipeline. They obviously showed that they didn't care about putting it under a drinking water source of the indian tribe in the Dakotas. How do you ensure responsibility from another nation. What court will you take your case to if a pipe bursts where it crosses your land? Who would pay for the cleanup? Here is another thought. Why can't Canada build its own pipeline to the west coast? Their own people don't want it so it is easier to shove down our throats?
Well I think you can look at the Deep Water Horizon incident and I think that answers most of your questions. BP paid 15 Billion in fines and costs related to their incident. There clearly is accountability. The comment about not caring about putting a line under a lake. Lines are put under bodies of water all the time, if that wasn't an option ,the lines wouldn't go far. The indians are getting paid for for crossing reservation land. A break would affect far more than just the indian tribe, no one in the area took that decision lightly. Are there risks, certainly there are however crude needs to be moved, either by ship, train or lines. Is a line in the ground better than having a Valdez incident? Yea I think so and apparently many others do as well. Having access to that oil that comes out of Canada is strategically important. Since our oil production is going to take a down turn, OPEC is unstable, I would say having access to the third largest oil reserve in the world is pretty vital. If the price of that is having a line running underground and under bodies of water from Canada to Nebraska, that is a risk worth taking. Especially when considering the blood and money spent in keeping oil flowing from the Middle East.
I've been to quite a few pipeline safety meetings over the years. It seems like there are pipeline accidents every year because someone did not do a utility locate and that is why they push the safety meetings. Other than bad digs causing breakage/leakage, pipelines ARE the most efficient and safest mode of liquid transportation available. No other method of liquid transport comes close to the safety factor of a pipeline or the low cost to move the product long distances. Back to the battery ideas, this came across my feed the past couple of days - a new, high efficiency rotary engine design. Follow this link for more on that system. At 25% of the weight per power of a conventional engine (and size), compact power sources such as this could be combined with regenerative electric components than might provide a viable option and keep the vehicles/equipment from being dependent on the electrical grid. If this engine design could be powered by a hydrogen cell, you might see a clean burning alternative to fossil fuels within the next couple of decades. I'll be keeping an eye on this new design to see how it progresses.
the real story about the Indian tribe in that case was the pipeline wasn’t actually going on their land and they were pissed about not getting the money for it. They found sympathetic ears for their version of the story (after all any other version is automatically labeled “durr hurr big oil evil”) and ran with it. There is always more to the story. Always. In today’s world of endless environmental permits and government oversight that story about the “poor widdle Indian tribe getting their land stolen” hit my BS detector immediately and then I got the rest of it when I ran into some guys from that area.
Exactly, it benefits both countries. The companies who are building it are the same regardless if it's in Canada or the US. If anything Canada has more regulations in terms of building the pipeline safely then the US does, for example fracking was banned here while the US still happily does it and will continue having earthquakes because of it. Look up the amount of spills and track records of Canada vs USA in terms of oil spills, etc. Canada is way safer. When it comes to building stuff in the states, it's not about jobs, safety, or the environment it's about who is willing to spend more paying off the politicians to get it passed. Money is the only reason KXL was scrapped. The way some people are against it comes off as they don't like it because it also benefits Canada. Like they would rather ship oil in by sea from saudi arabia? What a joke. There should not be a single drop of oil getting shipped into north america, there is no reason for it. If KXL doesn't get changed again and Canada finally gets it's act together the US could easily be in trouble in terms of finding oil, and quite frankly I would love to see that. Get the pipelines to the east and west built and ship oil elsewhere, and stop shipping all that oil south by train so buffett stops racking in billions.
Pipelines are so terrible, they should take out all the natural gas pipe lines and require everyone to have a propane tank sit in their yard and have a truck come and fill it. There are 433,000kms. of pipelines in Alberta. 57% are for natural gas. Pipelines are heavily regulated and proven to be the safest and most efficient method to transfer the products in them. Pipeline incidents in Alberta declined by 32 per cent between 2009 and 2018, while the length of pipelines increased by about 15 per cent. Western Canadian Select is also less expensive than conventional oil which offers even more cost savings.
Well I for one have several Canadian friends from all over Canada that I've met over the years that I care for and wouldn't wish any "trouble" as you say over a political football such as the Keystone Pipeline. We can discuss the merits of electric machines, pipelines, oil, coal, what backhoe to buy for your 2 acre mini-farm, how many hours does this undercarriage have on it, compaction techniques, your dogs favorite bed, what your cooking for dinner - all sorts of topics. However we here at HEF try to keep the political back and forth to a minimum. There are plenty of internet outlets to discuss politics, world views and the like on the WWW - just not here on HEF.
There is fracking in Alberta. In fact only 4 provinces have a provincial ban on fracking. Most natural gas comes from fracking. I know a place that supplies tons and tons of fracking sand. I wasn't trying to be part of a political debate. Just saying pipelines offer a lot benefits and cost savings over other methods. I think it's the politician's that make it more about politics than it needs to be. Maybe electric energy or hydrogen cell technology is the wave of the future but there is still a huge demand for oil and will be for some time. I think everybody involved needs to look at the big picture and have qualified people offering guidance and expertise. Money and lobby groups shouldn't be the deciding factors. Tree huggers don't want the tree's cut down but most live in wooden houses. Celebrities flying over the oilsands complaining seem to forget the plane they're flying in needs that oil to run.
The world's moving to electric. Not sure if I'll jump on the first electric airplane but I do enjoy the technology of it all. I agree construction equipment will be the last to change but also in some industries it will be sooner then everyone may think. I've worked on alot of fully electric construction equipment for indoor use. I'm working on increasing my knowledge on alternative energy because I'll be working on it sooner or later. I cant wait to see one of these come into the show room. Case made the first backhoe kind of cool there one of the first on an ev version https://www.casece.com/northamerica/en-us/products/backhoe-loaders/580ev-project-zeus
Did you read the 1st post in this thread?
industrial spam got through my email sorry didn't click on the link my bad. I love pipelines
Deere says they are entering the battery powered loader backhoe business now. https://www.equipmentworld.com/equi...35a7e056326d5b1b7f&oly_enc_id=9541F2856812F0D Komatsu says they are going to use batteries for counterweights. https://www.equipmentworld.com/alte...35a7e056326d5b1b7f&oly_enc_id=9541F2856812F0D
FYI...just came across this article on hydrogen fuel cells...they have a ways to go. https://inhabitat.com/hydrogen-fuel...=25068571&utm_medium=email&utm_source=rasa_io