Hello all, I have a question. I want to build a 12' berm along a noisy road, the total length would be about 250 yards. Its flat ground, basically top soil (6") then sandy clay. Very easy digging with zero rock. I don't have any dirt stockpiles so I think this will be a dig a trench and pile a berm situation. With my goal of 250 yards, 12' high berm with a time frame of a rental (so 3 days to a week). What size machine should I consider do be effective? I was thinking a 15-20 ton due to needing a reasonably high dump height to create the 12' berm? Is my timeframe reasonable or am I being overly optimistic? My experience unfortunately is limited to the 2 ton mini I own..... I have trenched well over 3500' in 120 hours with it for a water line in much harder digging ground... so not a complete newb but close! lol Is a excavator the best machine? I've seen dozers push up tall berms but I really don't want to tear up more ground then possible? Thanks all and much appreciated!
IMO, that is a crazy amount of dirt you are looking to move.... unless I'm missing something. You would need to dig a lake or you're going to have a moat going all the way along your berm. Not enough time time or machinery in my opinion.
I was worried about the scope of it. A new 24" water line was installed a mile away at 10' depth and they made such quick time of it its throwing me off, and basically did what I wanted.... however they were professionals in a 40 ton so... The moat along the berm is just fine, I would consider the lake but that would involve moving the dirt.
Also, the more i think about it, I could go 8' for the majority and 12' for about 100'. That would really slim down the project I think. Berm width would be as minimal as possible but I understand this will still be ~15' thick at the base.
By my maths if you go for a 1:1 slope on a 12’ high berm that is 12” (1ft) wide at the crest then the width at the base would be 25’ (12+12+1). If the berm was sloped at 1:2 then the width of the base would be 49’. Unless my calcs are way off it’s going to take a lot more dirt than you think to build it.
Yes, I'm starting to understand. 8' is becoming more of a goal it seems.
At 8’ high and 1’ wide at the crest it’s going to be 17’ wide at the base, give or take. At that size each linear yard of berm is going to require about 8 cubic yards of material. A 250-yard long berm would therefore need something of the order of 2000 cubic yards of dirt. Still a substantial amount. If you wanted it 12’ high then you are looking at 4000+ cubic yards of material.
I reckon you need to do some calculations rather than having a guess. Work the volume of dirt required then figure out where it comes from. A ditch type excavation which would only need moving dirt once but a heck of a hole or a wider shallow excavation which may require dirt being moved multiple times with a digger or once with a dozer. You have some pondering to do.
With sandy clay you'll probably need to assume a 1.5/1 slope minimum, or a 2/1 slope if you don't want it to erode badly. And at that it will require a good stand of grass to hold it. You really need to calculate the yardage you'll be moving. As others have pointed out up thread it will be more then you think. As an example, if my math is correct, the 2k yds @Nige noted above will create a trench 750' long, 18' wide, and 4' deep. IMO an excavator is not the best tool to actually build the berm due to difficulty in getting compaction. Without compaction you can figure on the berm losing 1-4 feet in height in a year or two depending on the soil condition. If the dirt is close rent a dozer, preferably a D6T or similar size machine or larger. If the dirt is more than 300ish feet away rent a scraper or a 30+ ton excavator and artic haul truck. Both of these methods will give you adequate compaction for your needs assuming the operator or truck driver is intentional about it. If you really want the berm, and you have a nice location, you may want to consider digging a pond somewhere on the property and using the spoils to build the berm.
Its all a mater of perspective, even if you are talking 5000-6000 cu yds that's a decent bit, but we've built pond dams that are more than double that. Your 3-5 day timeline is completely unreasonable especially if you are only running one machine and working by yourself. Unless you just plan to dig a ditch and throw up a messy windrow of dirt you are also going to need more than one piece of equipment. To do a decent job your are going to need a dozer, to strip top soil, push dirt up, shape the berm and spread material. You can also compact the berm with the dozer, it won't give much compaction but if you lay it in 6-8" lifts it'll be fine for what you're doing. Next, unless you are just digging an adjacent ditch, you are going to need some way to haul dirt. Depending on your terrain and soil conditions a scraper would be your best bet, but good luck finding one for rent anywhere. Next best would be an excavator and dump truck. As far as rentals go, most places around here at least are going to be limited to a D5K sized dozer, 160-210 size hoe and a tandem dump truck. What rental outfits do you have locally?
I figured 20' base, 750 L, 12' and without a compaction factor built in I get 6,666 cy. Figuring sloping it would be perhaps a bit less but by the time you compact it, depending on the soil, maybe not. That is quite a project for a homeowner. That will make quite a hole in the ground to pull that much material. You might try social media or reach out to local contractors and see if anyone is interested in dumping excess soil on your project. If you can find the right contractor, at the right time....
What will it do to the water shed where you steal the dirt and where the berm is? Are you planning mowing any of it? Lots of variables to think about.
Actually think the OP is just planning a running ditch with the spoils creating the berm. Not a terrible idea, plan on building it 12 to 14’ high and having it settle to 8 to 10’ over a few years. Have done the same with building berms for pistol and rifle ranges, just not that length. Might consider a month rental of a 30k machine and take your time.
Great info guys. HarleyHappy you have it right. The berm is to be exactly that ditch/berm. I don't need to look at it, and its meant to be a block.... I understand the wider the base the less erosion will be a concern which will be my biggest battle. As to rental availability, my good friend runs a medium size rental company locally and I will be able to work with him on my needs. I have already chatted with him about a cat 320 for a week and see where I am at but I believe it won't be as far as I had hoped. We did have a scraper onsite to work this area a few years ago and a good relationship with that company, so its worth a call about contracting it out (maybe the first 4-6'?). I also own ~60 acres connected to this 10 acre parcel I could take material from.... but... that I feel is getting much more complicated then my needs. The water table will not be effected, there is currently ditching and drainage where it would be almost impossible to imagine building a pond and having ay water to put in it.... dust and wind erosion would be more my issues. The help is much appreciated. I'm definitely understanding this is going to be more then me sitting in a 20 ton hoe for a week!.... lol. I am not on a timeline as the other answer has been earplugs at night.... haha not ideal for a nice acreage community hence my desire to berm.
What about a months rental on the 320; if its easy digging could you dig & dump with a cleanup bucket to speed production? We have completed a lot of work in day with a 2 yard cleanup bucket on our 210, stripping/piling a windrow on a 300' long cut.... A 30 ton machine would likely be even better for reach and dump height.... I am not any kind of expert like the others here so take this with a grain of salt! Good luck!
Digging a ditch next to the berm large enough to pull that kind of material would make the place look like a tank trap. I get you don't have to look at it but still. There are other options that are much better than that one. I think getting a scraper to pull the material off equally as much as practical would look a lot better. A building a pond would work well too, but it doesn't sound like that is an option. But if you pull the material and grade it out it becomes a low area and not a pond as you would think. Without seeing the property its hard to say what would work best.
I'm looking at the logistics of it. So what happens is as you dig this ditch and throw the berm up, You're going to have to compact and shape the near side because you're never going to get up to it again without jumping down in the hole. So this is a One-Shot deal. Dig it and shape the near side. I would leave enough room to walk on the other side to shape and slope and Hammer the other side. Typical angle of repose is 1.2 to 1. This isn't a freshman class deal. It's going to look like a whole lot of ugly if you don't take some time and plan it out. For a sharp top like that, you can't run across the top of it and reach down and shape it after you've tossed up a big mountain. You really have to do good job from the side. Have some staking. Climb up and set some centerline stakes so the top doesn't wander around like a drunken
A 20 ton excavator should give you reasonable 35 to 40 foot of reach and dump. I've set out like 3 or 4 swing widths and then come back and set on the dirt I've moved taking it and the next cut with it. You can move a lot of dirt this way fairly quickly. I'm just guessing your cut isn't going to be real deep. Yardage should be easy to figure on the cut fill you are doing. I use a clean up smooth bucket a lot on building cuts as was stated above.
You w You won't get near 35-40ft with that size machine, more like 25 all things considered.
Perhaps meant reach 20’, swing 180 then dump?—-for the 35-40’. Wasn’t sure myself. Not efficient at any rate to dig at full reach…I have done this myself though at times (like when bulking out overburden up onto sloping valley wall)—-due to space constraints.
Say reaching to your right 90 degrees to cutting 50 degrees to your left and dumping on your left 30 to 40 feet should be attainable. I've moved a lot of dirt this way when it's all I had on the job. Even moved piles this way getting on top of them. I would prefer a big loader doing what he is going to do as a 973 like I usually use will push up and stack a berm of that size easily, but you have to use what you got. Heck, I use a skid steer a lot of times when I should have hauled a loader in but if you lean forward long enough you can get any job done. All of this is in theory as not knowing the lay of the land and what kind of soil he's running in changes even the best guess.
This made me chuckle... We've all done it I'm sure. Get in a hurry and lean forward to help the machine push that dirt .
Or rock back and forth. First person I saw doing that was dad and without knowing I've picked up that habit, didn't know until just recently.
For someone without a lot of experience this would be a big job! You have to consider compaction. I'd guess you'll need a lot more material than you think. I have experience building tabletop jumps on MX tracks and they take a huge amount of material, much more than you think. You have to pack it or rain will will cause ruts and wash material away. Ideally you want the top at least wide enough for small dozer. If you have a big field that's high ground I'd windrow it and then use a loader to build your berm. That would look a lot better than a big ditch. If the ground is firm enough a 3yd or preferably bigger wheel loader could pile up the long row of dirt and then clean up any material pushed off when packing and shaping the berm. A loader could also shape the sides by back dragging the bucket from top to bottom. This way you could have steeper sides that require less material. A dump truck could be used to stack piles close together too.
Think that some people are over thinking this. Guy probably can’t see it from his house, doesn’t care what it looks like, as long as it only compacts over time 30%, he probably won’t care because by that time, there will be vegetation on it. Cheaper and easier to do Xmas trees but will take 20 years. Bring in a 30 tonner, walk it down the line, reaching as far as it can to the left, grading 3 to 1 slopes and piling it on the right as you go, compacting it as well as possible.
I also think people are over thinking this. I build 1000's of feet of terraces for farmers every year. Even though the terraces we build are only 4-5 ft tall some basins will get up to 10-12 ft with 2:1 slopes on each side. So just pushing up a 12' berm 750' long is a couple day project with a D6 size dozer. I sure wouldn't go out and buy a machine unless you have a bunch of other work that needs done.
Even if the berm isn't high enough when completed a very easy fix is to plant small trees and srubs on it. With sufficient density they will deaden sound, look attractive and the birds and bees will be thankful
An earth berm is much better than tree's and bush for noise reduction. Some claim you need 330' of tree's and bush to get a 1db noise reduction. I think it's better than that but you'd be better off with a higher berm. It might be worth getting a quote from an experienced contractor to build the berm. It could be much more cost effective than renting equipment and doing it yourself if you don't have much experience running equipment.
A mate planted trees and bushes along their roadside, about 20' wide strip and they can hardly hear the traffic now. That's were I got the idea from in my previous post.
I have a county blacktop road about 150 ft from my house. When I moved here about 30 years ago there was a row of mature cedar trees along the road ditch. Over the years between several wind events blowing some over and some simply dying there are only about 4 or 5 trees left along the road. Most of the time this is not a heavily traveled road. I have noticed the traffic noise increase as I have thinned out those trees over the years. I had always blamed it on my windows but the thinning of the trees makes alot of sense.
overthinking it? probably so. I always look at it like somebody is going to pay me to do it and how it looks. After nature gets after it for a few years it won't matter.
There are many different views regarding how much tree's reduce noise. Only way to know is to do sound tests. That said it's generally agreed an earth berm is more effective but tree's on top of a berm do help. They take awhile to grow though.
I do agree the combination of an earthen berm plus trees/shrubs planted on it would be the best. The only consideration here is to make sure you separate the top soil and cover the berm with it. Nothing is going to want to grow on it if it's just a big pile of clay/shale/rock/subsoil.
Wasn’t aware that the OP was wanting to buy, thought he was looking for recommendations on what machines and size to do the job. Trees and vegitation help dramatically for sound and eyesight. We have a State road 200 yards from my house over a state river and notice the noise increase every winter. When I built the house, on the edge of my lawn, I planted 6 Abborvitea trees, expecting them to grow but evidently I got duds. lol
He's not looking to buy.
Softer loose soil also helps reduce and absorb sound. Grass on a berm helps but it's best if it's mowed which requires less of a slope. There are wild flower and other grasses that could be planted that don't require much maintenance. There are a lot of studies on berms and noise reduction online. Not being able to see the source of noise is usually good for a 5db reduction. There are also noise reducing fences. I've been looking into noise reduction a lot since I'm hoping to build a new MX track. Noise is reduced by absorption or reflection or a combination of both.
A wire stretched where you want trees will do it. Birds seem to think I want cedars in all my fences on the farm.
Thats a good new idea. I like it.
Here in ND, I don't have the answer on how to get trees, but I do know how to not have them. Spend thousands and thousands on clearing all the dead ones, then spend some more planting new ones, and the new ones will be dead in a few years.
In Calgary, you generally need a lot grading permit or approved plan for a berm if it alters drainage, affects neighboring properties, or involves significant earthworks. Minor, non-structural landscaping that does not change water runoff patterns may not require a permit, but you must ensure compliance with The City of Calgary Lot Grading . For most significant modifications, you should check for a grading permit to ensure you do not cause issues with overland water flow. Talk to a contractor guy with a small Dozer, or find a dozer operator and see what he says. Make the berm just 4-5 high and plant trees.
Wow guys, great info and it definitely has me thinking! As to the permits, I'm outside the city limits and already talked with the county. As long as I am set back from the property line by 2m (it will be more like 15m) I can go 8'. I can't change surface water flow of course, but there is zero run off here so that is easy. I do know a guy who runs a D6 full time and I'm amazed what he can do, I may have him over and see about the complexity of peeling the soil back 100' one way, then scraping back to berm with the clay, then spread the soil back? At least get his idea on it and what he would charge if I had the D6 here. I got a quote for a 8' sound fence, 55K so not terrible but I doubt it would work as well as dirt. Its basically sheet metal around 2" foam. I'm not sure what I think of this yet.... I already planted 180 saplings (alternating pine/russian olive) along the road 3 years ago, they are starting to grow but it will be 10+ years before they help with sound at all... and then it will be minor. I really appreciate all the comments and feedback. Its definitely a bigger project then I had thought but not undoable. I am in no rush but just the notes here are very helpful! Now I keep watching richi brothers for way bigger machines then I will ever need. haha
I'll stir the pot a bit....how about this EX700? It will definitely build your berm. My buddy (who built my wash plant in 2012) bought this large old beast for use in his dimension stone quarry near Cranbrook; used it for a bit and then sold it. I noticed it is up for sale for $30k in Cranbrook Facebook. The thumb has to be worth more than that! (never even seen a thumb on that sized machine myself) He said it ran well, didn't seem to have any glaring issues. The pictures I am showing are from the dismantle and Lowbed out of Prince George. Cranbrook isn't that far from Calgary (lol!) Anyhow good luck with your project. I was born in Calgary, took my education at U of C (1990). Was around 500,000 population when I lived there!
That would build a mountain!
He was moving these around....
I'd ask your dozer operator to come down and take a look, then rent him a machine and pay him to do the job. I wouldn't worry too much on planting anything fancy right away. Don't make it look like a berm on your side, just a "hill rise"
100' strip is about half of what you're going to need for area to do this job comfortably. You don't have to push half the topsoil towards the line, just enough to use to get a start on the toe and a little ways up on that side after the berm is built.
I had actually clicked and looked at his and thought *hmmmmmm* hahaha. It does seem like a good deal, but way way way out of my league.
here's an 800 w/ thumb loading those mondo 6120# blocks on the tilt. Bringing two. He did set them one at a time on the trailer.
If you do decide to do this with a hoe, then the bigger the better in my opinion. What will seem like an enormous job in a 15-20 ton machine, doesn't seem nearly as daunting in a 30 plus ton one. I did a similar job for a customer, long ago, with my old Hitachi 350. It wasn't bad at all, just glad I wasn't in something smaller. My new 300, will out dig my old 350, so if you are renting something really old, remember they aren't going to perform like a modern one does.