So what is the least expensive way to move dirt these day ? Say for highway and overpass projects ? I've been looking at ag tractors and pull scrapers, but you guys (and other seasoned veterans) don't seem to give them much credit. We can't afford new Cat scrapers. So what is one to do ? There seems to be a lot of old(er) iron around. Who knows how many hours they have on them. Should a guy buy something like that and fix ? Its like making a deal with the devil. One 621 advertised in the Machinery Trader has had $172,000 in work done in the last 3500 hours. That is $50 an hour for upkeep ! Yikes ! Other than engines and transmissions, what wears out and breaks on a scraper ? What is the best way to handle scraper purchases ? Buy new ? Buy junk and totally rebuild it ? Something in between ? Thanks
The word of wisdom is... whatever vehicle you buy, you are money ahead to buy the best one you can afford. Buying junk only works if you have way more time than money, a huge parts pile at your disposal, a fully stocked machine shop and the skills to use all the tools. Having said that,I wish i could say I follow my own advice! Probably why my car, and both my Cats are a long way from usable. And it is different if you are buying something for hobby use, or actually intend to earn a living with it. The people I work for frequently have bought used and abused scrapers cheap, then dump a ton of money and time into them, to get a machine that still has questionable reliability. Why they don't spend more initially to have a machine they can put to work immediately I have never understood. Whatever you decide, choose wisely, and check everything carefully. Know your limitations. Check Machinerytrader.com and compare the prices for a piece of machinery, you can usually figure out why two of the same model sell for vastly different prices. "Off brand" scrapers may be cheaper, but parts availablility may be difficult. Cat, terex and Deere are probably your best bets. Good luck to you! alan627b
Wear parts on motor scrapers. Tires Cutting edges, slobber bits, rollers and roller channels. Floors and side plating. Control levers and valving. Hitches. Assuming no one has run it so long the bushings are gone and the castings need work, you are still looking at $10,000 plus if the dealer does a bushing and pin replacement. Costs go up if the castings are bad, the goosneck is cracked, etc. If someone has run it a long time with a worn out cutting edge, the frog itself and/or the floor may need work. Trunnion balls which the draft arms bolt to wear out, as do the caps themselves. I think just a pair of balls cost $180 a pair, last time the one I ran needed them. Hoses and electrical harnesses are frequently damaged. It's not hard as you'd think to spring an ejector cylinder rod, or beat the packing out of any cylinder. Get some yahoo who runs around with the lip open and the ejector ahead, takes very little time at all. Or loads with the ejector ahead and a slab falls over the back. Or overloads and tears all the wiring or hoses off the draft arms. Etc, etc..... alan627b
This is a for profit venture. We don't have any spare scraper parts. Has anyone run a TS14G ? Are they pretty reliable ?
This is where I start thinking pan scrapers and a tractor look good. I can buy pretty much new pan scrapers for $25K each. Not quite as heavy as a 14 bowl, but at least they are new. New cylinders, new cutting edges, new hoses, new tires. What is not to like ? All I need is a good 600 HP tractor. But, I can't help but notice that people are discussing operators still running Cat 666s. How old are they ? How many thousands of hours do they have on them ? Obviously there is some merit to running old equipment and keeping it up.
Let's put it this way, the last 3 axle scraper was a 650B, and came out of the factory in 1978. These 666's are considerably older. Anybody running these today has probably got quite a backlot of parts machines, a good mechanical force, and a well equipped shop. I believe the latest 660 pictured are repowered by Detroit Diesel engines. Those quad cam Cat engines are probably getting hard to find parts for, and harder to make pass emissions in California where they are being used. The reason they are still around is they still excel at what they were built for, bulk dirt moving. The closest thing anybody builds to them now is the 657G, and I'd hate to guess what 1 costs right now. You could probably buy a lot of these old units for what 1 new one costs, and they still have a bigger bowl than anything else made today. If you've got the shop force to keep them going. I think the term is Economics of Scale. The more dirt you move per load, the less it costs per yard. I'm probably preaching to the choir here. Sorry! About 8 of these sold last year in Arizona and Las Vegas, 660's or converted 666's to single engines, and the ones I saw were usable but far from mint condition. The most expensive of the 4 I saw sold for $16,000. Talk about depreciation! alan627b
A friend of mine has his own company, and is using either Challengers and cans, or trucks and backhoes depending on the job. He tried out some TS14G's last year, said they were noisy, lacking in power and didn't ride that well. Only input I've got there. Specs http://www.transdiesel.com/Files/TS14G.pdf Cat is smart keeping the patents up on that cushion hitch! I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 627's I run have 100,000 frame hours on them. The best thing about the older models like this is that they are mechanically simple compared to the heavily electronic and computerized E through G models. Probably why they like them. I'd say your choice on what to buy partially depends on the length of your haul, soil type in your area, and the grades you have to climb. And whether or not you can find 2 operators who can work together, because you can move a lot with a good push-pull team. And a good finish scraper hand can eliminate the need for a lot of support equipment. Hope this is of some value to you. alan627b
Have you looked at the economics of hireing one.Saves on capital outlay and when jobs done give it back.A lot of peoples doing here in New Zealand.Just a thought.
The cheapest way to move dirt with a motor scraper is with a TS-14. It may not be the most comfortable, but its the cheapest.
A man who knows how to move dirt. I was headed this way to add my 2 cents. Lets be honest, its not possible for a small contractor to justify spending 1 million dollars on two Cat 627Gs. Not to mention the support equipment needed. Two Terex TS-14Bs will run you roughly 80-150k. They are terribly simple. Parts are cheap, so cheap that most companies keep a set on transmissions a front and rear engine on standby. Not saying you will need them in a two scraper operation. The company I worked for had 20+. They are so simple. We had a rear engine go on us. This was at 8am. Our shop sent a mechanic, he determined that we needed a new engine. He started taking things apart. At 11:30 he was ready to pull the engine out. The shop sent a parts runner with an engine that had a fresh rebuild. By 3pm that TS-14 was up and moving dirt. You will never get that with a Cat scraper. You would be lucky to find an engine in 7 hours, let alone swap em out. A good mechanic that knows his Detroits can make a lot of power out of the engines. Most of the time our crews consisted of two scrapers, a push cat, a finish cat, and an 815 or other compactor. Didnt matter if it was a TS-14 crew, or a 627 crew. There were many jobs where a 14 crew and 627 crew were working at the same time. With two good operators, a little planning, and a hard working crew, we would move the same yardage that the 627 crew was moving. Not to mention, our Detroits burned less fuel than the 27s. Our D7 and D5 burned less than the 8 and 6 that came with the 27s. If we broke one of our scrapers, the repair was usually quick, no waiting on cat for parts. Get a set of Green Weenies, a couple good operators, and you will make good money. Before fuel prices skyrocketed we were moving topsoil for .89 cents a yard. Cut to fill was usually around .93 cents a yard, and that included the 815 on the two ts14s tab.
just a curiousity. assuming average care, operator, and soil.... how many honest hours on the key components of a scraper last? some of the older scrapers have tons of hours on them. is this something to be scared of?
Our mechanics routinely pull a rear pack out of a 627B in under 2 hours. A front engine takes a bit longer. Disconnect the drive coupling, unscrew the wiring harnesses, pull a fuel line, and the engine and trans come out together. It can be done with 2 guys in a lot less than 2 hours. And we usually have several 3306 front engines and rear packs ready to go. It's the only way to do things if you have a fleet of old iron. Of course, they have had to do the swap enough times they have it down to a science! I think a pair of 627B's would come in about the same money as a pair of TS14B's, and parts availablility is no problem either, we usually don't have to wait much more than overnight on Cat parts. Depending on what it is, of course. I'm not sure if we have a Terex dealer in Omaha anymore. The real problem on either brand will be when you get into the newer, more complex later model scrapers. A 627E is quite a bit more complex than a B is, and it gets worse the newer you get. 627A and B models, and TS14 A and B models are both proven performers. It just took Terex a little longer to modernize their designs, doesn't the 14B still have a cable to lift the lip? alan627b
Very interesting comments on the TS14s. Seems a lot of people scoff at them, but yet when the job gets serious they are a good machine. Anyone want to comment on which TS14 models to seek or avoid ? I think the newer models have Int 466s in them. Are they good machines ? What about the real old ones ? Would you buy one of them and drop in new engines and transmissions ? If a pair of TS14s moves as much dirt as a pair of 627s, why do people run 627s ? What about TS24s or TS18s ? Thanks for all the input !
buy a 6 X6 truck it is less headache and is more versitile.
From what I ran, you wanna stay with a ts-14b. Detroit powered. My old employed had 6 g's and they were always working on them. Electronic issues, underpowered a/c's, some drivetrain problems... By contrast, the b's stayed working more often even if they had more hours and green operators.
If it's wet or rocky end dumps are a productive way to go. But a truck can't self load, it needs an excavator to load it at all times. And trucks can't grade they need a dozer all the time on the fill. Different conditions are conducive to different equipment. A lot of big dirt contractors I know of use both end dumps and "pans", depending on what they think will be the most productive. Just my 2 cents. :drinkup
i have thought about this for years, usually when ive had a bad day, gotten my ass chewed by a boss, "ya i could get my own scraper and do this for myself" it never happened. hands down it would be a 627b, they are light and maneauverable quick loading fast moving you can road them with an oversized load sign on them in most states. with some shopping you could pick a good one up for around 50,000. remember, they paint terrexs green so they can hide in the weeds when the cats come by.
But how do you load them ? With a hoe or a loader ? I've never seen road built that way.
Very interesting discussion guys. Keep it coming. I have no experience with this stuff.
Question: what the heck are all the lines on the gooseneck for on a 627 ? http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...6604260&GUID=17a8fbbcaa7b4302a14e1b6227c3ef1f What would it cost to totally rebuild a 627 ? An old one costs $25K. A new one costs $650K. Wouldn't $150K do a lot of work on a 627 ? These ads are hilarious. I like how the ad for the 1967 627 says "USED". That's funny. Even better are the ones that say "recently painted" and you look at the picture and there is rust everywhere. I wonder what it looked like before it was painted ? A 2007 627 with 2000ish hours on it is listed for $650K. A 2006 627 with 4000 hours on it lists for $350K. I have 2 observations from this: 1) If a 2006 scraper has 4000 hours on it, how many hours does a 1973 model have ? 2) The 4,000 hour machine is listed for $300K less. $300K/2000 hours = $150/hour for depreciation ! That seems a little expensive !
Q1) Lines over the hitch include ejector, 2 bowl lift cylinders and apron. Some functions have a send and a return or bypass line. Some are for the cushion hitch cylinder. Air lines for the rear brakes, and rear throttle if equipped with a second engine. Electrical wiring to send the signal from the tractor transmission to the rear shift controller, and send and recieve from signals from various sensors. Remote rear start/shutdown on some scrapers. 6 of them are criss-crossed to allow the pivot movement of the hitch, or they 'd have to have an impossible amount of slack to allow turning. Might have a fuel send and return line, some may not have rear fuel tanks anymore. 2) Costs of used units depends greatly on the number of hours the unit has, the general condition of the unit, how it is equipped, whether or not it has push-pull equipment, as these units have additonal reinforcement in the structure for this application. A unit used in rock or abrasive material will wear out much faster than a Midwest machine primarily used in clay, and will be worth less. Cost also depends on the amount of new components included. For example, a new set of tires for a 627 will run about $20,000 depending on what brand and quality you buy, radial or not, etc. 3) "New Paint" can mean "You should have seen waht an eyesore it was before we steamed all the crud off and took it to Earl Sheibs" and bondoe'd the sides of the bowl...don't laugh, I've seen it....paint and ArmorAll hide a lot. Beware the Dupont overhaul..... 4) A 1974 627B could possibly have 100,000 frame hours on it. Don't believe an hour meter, they get replaced too. 5000 hours might mean "since the last time it was in the shop". Buyer beware.... alan627b
what bout the self loaders Maybe I just got with the wrong 14's but any time we rented one or worked with another contractor with one we could run circles around it with our John Deere 860 self loader. The 14's were nice when you got into rock, lil easier to load without worrying bout the eleavator but in dirt I would load faster and could lay it down all broke up and in smaller lifts, making less work for the dozer operator. With a self loader you do have more moving parts to worry bout and wear out. We always ran teeth on our cutting edge and you had to make sure you looked UNDER them as depending what kinda of material you were in would wear the bottoms right out of them and start into the shanks. Elevator itself took a lot of beating and bouncing. However we could usually go 1000 hours or better before having to tighten it up. Once you worked the idlers to the top, you just took out a half link and started over. Slides on the bottom bowl also wore out fast and if not replaced would allow the bottom to obtain play which could cause it to twist and break the slides and usually twist the yoke in the back of the machine. Our 860 is a 1970 model, so its had some years on it. We have pretty much repalced everything at one time or more. However, Transmission and Tourqe Convertor were both re-built for the first time in 2004(TC has been out TWICE more since, note to self NEVER send things to Palmer Johnson Compaines AGAIN). The "rear end"(which is actually the front) has only been removed ONCE, a few years ago for a broken sun gear(see front diff removal pics). Honestly, even for all the work we have had to do on it in the years, it has been a very good machine for us, we just kept it too much longer than we should have. Got to a point that "well we spent 10K on this, so we kinda have to spend another 8 K here to keep it running". For us(two dozers and the scraper) it was a wonderful way to move dirt for years. Company I work for right now, I use an excavator and haul trucks to strip quarries and most days I know I could do it faster with less man power if I just had a scraper back. Trbo
For a small contractor, you can't go wrong with TS-14's. They'll work in mud, rock and good dirt too. Simple design, easy to work on and cheap to operate. I ran them for 30 years. We able to do things with them you wouldn't believe and wouldn't dare do with any other pan. When I was very young, every big grading company had a couple or more of the TS-14's and maybe a green dozer or two. They'd put inexperienced drivers and cowboys on them, people that hated them and send them out front to do the dirty, rough work in the most extreme conditions to prepare the way for and save their CAT equipment. The drivers didn't want to drive them, the mechanics didn't want to work on them and the service men didn't want to service them. But despite all that they always seemed ready to go again the next day. I told my father, "I'm going to buy me some of those darn green things one of these days." He didn't like green machines either, but I told him, "I've never seen equipment so despised, so hated and so mistreated as this stuff and it just keeps coming back for more day after day."
How much are spare engines and transmissions for TS14s and 627s ? There are a ton of 627s in the $30-$50K range and lots of TS14s even cheaper than that. Would you repower the TS14s with Cummins 5.9s ? Which transmissions give more trouble, the Allisons in the TS14s or the Cats in the 627 ? Which has stronger differentials ? I hate to ask, but which machine will move more dirt in an hour ? The 627 seems to have a capacity advantage ? If you bought one of these machines used, what would you do on it before you started working it ?
I'd like to add something. A couple of times I rented some extra TS-14's. They were always weak compared to my TS-14's. I checked them and some others that other people rented. I found that places that rented them out usually set the no-load RPM's at around 1900. The no-load RPM's were supposed to be set at 2250. I set all my TS-14's at 2450. It really makes a difference in performance with no real added hardship on the engines or transmissions. In good soil, keep the 2 center cutting bits 4" to 6" below the outer 2 bits and they'll load themselves before a pusher can catch up. Run one machine with a straight edge and one with the center dropped to the extreme. Make 2 passes with the drop center and then start making passes with the straight edge. The straight edge machine picks up the ridge left between the 2 deep "ruts" thus keeping the cut area a little smoother and loading itself just as quickly.
How much trouble does this stuff give because of all the twisting and chaffing ? How often does a scraper blow a hydraulic line ? At what point are these machines just scrap iron ? Is it worth it to buy an older machine and do a complete end to end overhaul ? Wouldn't you have a great machine if you did that ? Thanks for your answers, Alan. You've been a big help. I don't know what to say about the self loading JDs.
--------------------------------------- Fix any leaking hyd. cylinders, replace any bad looking hoses, you know, misc. little stuff and then put it to work. "FIX", and I mean "FIX"(rebuild) what tears up when it tears up.....or just before is better if you can catch it. Look for cracks in the neck. If you have to weld up some cracks on the neck, use a LH 110-18 welding rod or similar wire (preheat and slow cool is the proper way....but just V-ing it out and welding it up works too). Stick your head in between the frame and rear tire, (on both sides) look down at the bottom of the frame, a crack in the corner there is usual, fix and take a look every once in a while just to check on it. Check the roller on the dump arm and the 'thing' it rolls on while you have your head in there while on the left side. Check the blocks the dump rest on and the 'stops' in front (inside bowl) of it, buildup or repair as needed. If it's operating when you buy it, run it, these are things you can do on rainy days or between jobs. ....oh, and the steering has a flow reversing valve. It won't work right if the bushings in the steering cylinders are worn out. The machine will point at about 45 degrees and then seem not to want to swing on around are be slow to straighten up after a sharp turn. Rock the steering wheel and watch the cylinder ends to see how much play they have. The bushings are cheap and easy to replace.
OOOPS! Old dog ain't learning new tricks to well......LOL
What do you mean by that ? Why wouldn't you own a TS18 ? Cummins 5.9 engines are bulletproof and cheap. So are the 8.3s. The new TS14Gs are powered by IH466s. They are also a pretty good engine. It seems like engines and transmissions are the main failure components on TS14s. The rest of the stuff is mainly maintenance, except if you blow a hydraulic hose. Transmissions seem to be the weak link in all HD equipment. I wonder if one could run a 10 speed autoshift transmission like they use in highway trucks. No clutch packs !
I answered most of your questions as best I could up in the quote area in my reply. Then the last was in ...black at the bottom. I don't know how to subdivide it like these other fellows...........yet. As for the TS-18 and why I wouldn't own one. You're feeding and maintaining 6 more cylinders in the engines for just 4 more yards of material. The early transmissions gave more trouble and they had small planetaries which I've been told gave some problems. In the beginning.....seems I've heard that somewhere before......I ran a couple of S-12 EUCLID straight drives with the old 2-valve 671's in them. They rode better, used less fuel and would out run a TS-14 on a haul but you had to push load them. ....and it cost just as much or more to rebuild the transmissions. I still had one left up until the mid-90's that I'd drive every now and then. It would get the 14 drivers goat for me to pull out and pass them.....LOL ...and it was one of those that had the seat mounted on a 12" piece of pipe. OOOPS. I forgot about the little S-7's I had. Cute little pans, fun to drive and almost indestructable, just didn't move enough dirt. The old straight drive EUC's had air assist on the clutchs and an air stop brake in the transmission so you could speed shift them....If everything was working right. Otherwise you had to 2-clutch it or use engine rpm's to shift. Where would you find a driver today that could do that.
If you reply to someone's message, you can see how to end a quote. You use [ / quote ] without the spaces. I had to put the spaces in or it thinks I am ending a quote. And then to start a new quote, you use [ quote ] without the spaces. I teach you about computer and internet stuff and you teach me about scrapers, OK ? OK. I can understand that. Did they have the same diffs as the TS14 ? Transmissions and engines... transmissions and engines. Scrapers seem to go through transmissions and engines like crazy. Ouch ! Now that is interesting. Why couldn't a guy use an Eaton Autoshift transmission. They autoshift in a truck, why wouldn't they autoshift in a scraper ? As long as it wasn't while cutting. I'm comparing TS14s to 627s. The 627s are a lot heavier and they have a lot more power. They also have the cushion hitch. Do they self load better ? Do they burn more fuel ? TS14 engines are rated at 175HP each. Would the differentials stand up if you put 250HP on them ? Does anyone know what the differences are between the various 627 versions ? A/B... G ? Thanks
Back in the 70's, the CAT dealer used to push selling 627's, can't blame them for trying to sell something. If they had a customer torn between a new TS-14B and a 627, they'd rent a TS-14 from someone and demo it against a 627. Of course the 14 was outclassed, it was usually detuned as I've said before plus it was already about 100 horses short. If they wanted to make a fair comparicson, they should have used a TS-18. As I told a fellow once that had several 627's with the cushion hitches, "You got some nice race horses there. I just got some old plow mules." Now are you into horse racing or working a farm. That about sums up any comparison between the two. One requires better feed and treatment, the other will get the job done on less with less. We mostly did small yardage jobs, 10 to 30 thousand yards. Streets, roads, farm ponds, poultry barns, farm work, residential, commercial and some industrial grading jobs, only a couple over 100 thousand yards. We worked in soils from dead sugar sand to hard rock. Sugar sand is where a single engine machine couldn't and wouldn't go empty even. We'd have to double up the push tractors sometimes, jam the bowl down deep as it would go and then pump it a couple of times to top it out. Sugar sand is when you pray for rain, all day, everyday, until the jobs complete. I see some people fussing about the cable operated aprons (lip of the bowl) and not being able to dump sticky stuff or just regular dirt for that matter. The aprons would stand straight up out of the way if the cables were cut the right length and installed properly. To long and they don't open all the way, to short and it won't shut all the way unless you pick the bowl up all the way.....which by that time you've lost half your load. I have seen some TS-14's that were modified by (I guess) the owners with a 671 in the front. The old 671's were rated at 238 hp.. These were a little spunkier than the normal 471 powered ones with, I was told, no added problems.
627's vs TS-14's One thing you have to consider here is tires and their cost. Although a 627 has more horsepower than a TS-14, it's also a lot harder on tires. In the hands of an inexperienced operator, a 627 will shred a set of rear tires faster than you can open your wallet to pay for a new pair. Don't buy a TS-18 - they are not one of Terex's better scrapers. The TS-24's were very reliable but you need all sots of permits to shift them from job to job - always on a trailer. Operating costs for a TS-24 are also higher but they will shift a lot of dirt. The 24B's are more complicated than the older models. Terex got it right with the TS-14 (especially the TS-14B) despite what all the Cat lovers may tell you, and they remain the cheapest way to shift a yard or two with a motor scraper. ointhead
I can't believe I am reading that the TS14s are such good machines. I thought everyone here would be pro Cat. What special care do the 627s need that the TS14s don't ? What is the hourly rate for a TS14 or 627 on a contract ? Do they charge out the same rate ?
Would the differentials on a TS14 live if the engines were swapped with 250HP models ? How much power did the 6-71s make that were sometimes swapped into TS14s in place of the 4-71s ? If a 4-71 was 175 HP, the 6 -71 should be 175x1.5 = 262 HP. It looks like $50K buys a mid to late 70s 627, whereas $50K buys a late 1980s TS14B. I'm surprised the Cat people aren't screaming bloody murder...
How can a TS14 with 350HP keep up with a 627 with over 500 HP ? The TS14 weighs a lot less. Does its light weight make up the HP difference ? How could a TS 14 load anywhere near as fast as a 627 with so much less weight and power ? Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to learn.
Rent Rent Rent
i know where 2 s-12's are and still in decent shape 1 powershift and 1 direct drive some of the cat 619's were direct drive we shifted them same as a tractor trailer the only thing was reverse it was on a small lever near the 2 levers that worked the bowl you pulled it back then pushed it to your right but you had to be stoped to get it in gear i ran power glide's long before i got the chance to try that thing out and not to bad after you get used to it
619 dw 21 You bring back old thoughts, on running scrapers, I do not think there is a scraper I have not tried out. The worst one was that electric, I forgot the name ( OLD AGE I AM 70 ) everything was electric steering, sometimes the steering would lock up, so I would throw in the clutch and step on the throttle and hope the steering would kick in. I run the s 7 s12 s18 s24 they were a back breaker as they had like a little spring for a shock absorber. I remember the 619 cat scrapers and when I wanted to shift fast, you woul grab the hoist leaver when you were shifting and when you hit nutral hit the hoist lever and it would go right into gear, it was like speed shifting. The TS 24 and TS 14 to many electic problems, to much down time. What I liked about scrapers was how fast you could move dirt and build road.When you run scraper always travel with a low bowl for SAFTY because if something happens with the scraper, you can drop it for a brake or if you go of the road your bowl will dig in. I remember many years ago on a dam job and it was very Hi ball, a guy pulled over to have a crap and did not drop his bowl to the ground, and climbed back on to his load in the dirt to have a dump, well you know what happened, he just stated to get relaxed and have his crap and the scraper took off, with him trying to get his pants up. The scraper got wrote off and he jumped off or got thrown off. So always get your bowl on to the ground before you get off. Have a great day you guys, I love this form.
Gary was that electric scraper a Wabco?
On the 619 when you grabbed the hoist lever to shift,did you ever break a cable by high boom it doing that????? I also run one of those electric Wabcos,until i burnt out the stator from trying to get out of a mud hole:beatsme. I was also the only person to get the electric over cable lip to get wound up backward trying to get the dirt to fall out.I was sure glad when the stator burnt up that was the end of that old girl.Thank God!:usa
No most of the scraper was built by GE and it had 671 gm motor. I run the old Wabcos a 260 and 360 I think. When I started in Construction I was 16 years old, just got out of reform school. My brother inlaw was crazy enough to get me a job oiling on a 22 b backhoe and I loved it, it was like I was in the reform school but this place paid me to do nothing except a little greasing and oiling. I loved construction so much, it gets in your blood. Thanks for listening Buckethead.
It took me a while to get back to this post. As far as hoses, wires and hard lines over the hitch, how long they last depends on how well they are maintained. Cat took he trouble to put guards on the most easily damaged parts, but they often get removed over the years by lazy mechanics. The hard lines and hoses are held in place by rubber isolation blocks, if these rot out and aren't maintained, they rub holes in the hard lines. Then you have to take them off and braze them. Keep wires taped up and zip tied so they don't hang loose, they last a good long time. If you have operators that insist on trying to get 23 yards in a 20 yard bowl, you could do a lot of damage in a very short time. Falling clods do a great job of removing wiring and hoses. Cushion hitch maintenance means frequent lubrication, keeping the nitrogen accumulator charged, or it will beat the machine up as bad as a stiff neck. When they get worn, you will get fore and aft movement as well as side to side. If you want to tell how worn a hitch is, put the cutting edge in the ground, with the hitch locked down. Put it in 2nd gear, and give it some front throttle, and see how far the nose rises. Twist the steering side to side and see how much movement there is in the steering linkage, and observe how much movement there is in the steering cylinders. New pins and bushings are a lot less expensive than welding hitch castings, but some owners are cheap, and wait until the casting wears through before fixing. False economy. I can't say what a Euclid/Terex TS14 is like, as I've never run one. A guy owned some twin bowl TTS-14's when I lived in Missouri, they moved a lot of dirt for him. As far as 627's go, I've run the A,B, and E models.and the 621 E, F, G. 627B has 225 HP in each end, and can be turned up. E's started out the same, and got a power upgrade in the later years. I think F's were still at 450, the G now has 550. And is now rated at 23 yards heaped opposed to 21 for the older models. The newer ones are nicer for the operator, but much more complex electronically. Bang for buck, a good used 627B is the best choice for a small contractor in the 14-20 yard class. Speaking Cat only, of course. As far as green lizards go, check to see what parts availablility is like in your area. Cat has a hell of a dealer network, but, they are proud of their parts. I got parts for my 1954 Cat D2, and only had to wait overnight...not bad for a 54 year old machine. I doubt you'd have that availability with the green stuff. Just my opinion, though. Still, the 71 series GM engine is as common as dirt, and Allison automatics are common too. And the TS14 does seem to be a simply constructed machine, from the ones I've looked at. I hope this helps, alan627b
i hate scrapers but i have run a bunch. if i had to RUN one, it would be a cat. if i had to own one, it would be a terex. a 14 is way better in marginal ground and a blind monkey could wrench on it.
627 v TS14 Alan 627B has given some good and frank answers. I have 2 627A's and 3 627B's which I have bought to put to work, TS14,s were investigated but the need for a full time fitter to remove and overhaul engines and transmissions finished that idea! Remember if you are a small contractor like myself you will not flog your machines the same as a big outfit and you will not want to spend your time fixing them. I admit I have never run Terex but I do know from listening to the old hands that you need the proper operators on Terex. Somebody earlier mentioned TS14's being reset to run at 2450 revs-it was explained to me that the two stroke diesel needs to be kept spinning flat out to protect the transmission from damage. One contractor I know used to run 24's but now runs 631's and 637's-he told me you could replace leaking seals on a Terex ram and you would hardly have your back turned before the same ram was leaking again. As regards buying secondhand look at Machinery Trader-I wish I lived in the USA-there are some good machines out there for humble money,last year I saw a 627A with Cat fitted safety cab and cushion hitch in real good shape for $30000. Bring a good mechanic with you and be prepared to pay a little more for the machine that has been well looked after! Cheers Neil
Very interesting observations from seasoned veterans. Our company is almost a hundred years old..... and I've had the opportunities to run our two old S-7's, affectionately called "The Billy Goats" the ones that nobody of age would run; and for good reason. You had to graduate and earn your salt before the older operators would allow you to run the two old TS-14's (TS-14A and TS-14B) We had an old Cat 613 elevator scraper, which we still have, but just for picking up windrows behind a patrol. Then, we got the first set of Reynolds pull pans; our old Dirt Sup't deemed them "Bicycles"...... unfit for the industry. Then we bought (4) very used Terex TS-18's from an Oklahoma coal mining outfit, put 'em on freight train, and had 'em delivered to La. Bought 'em for $25,000/each. Sank another $25,000 into each of them. This was back in 1994. Still have the same (4) Terex TS-18's today, and they are in the same shape as when we bought 'em; still running strong. The operators thought that they died and went to heaven. Mucho more power, mucho more speed, larger diameter tires for a better ride, air throttles for the rear engine, beefier gooseneck hitch w/ no cracks, more ground clearance ....... just way more scraper! There is no comparison between a TS-14 and a TS-18 from a production standpoint. Now, a TS-14 does have its place...... mostly in very soft ground conditions.... where if your operator musters the courage to try to traverse an area, then it is a TS-14 that should be "the Guinea Pig"..... because if it sinks, then it's a whole lot easier to recover.... but other than that, I challenge anybody to claim that a TS-14 can deliver a better cost/ cy. A TS-14 is also better at not destroying pavements, if the job you are building requires highway crossing; the TS-18 will mangle a standard highway, rutting it to oblivion.
Interesting Just found and read this thread and wanted to say thanks to the old hands that have shared their input here. I just recently joined the ranks of scraper ownership. bought a 613C cat to use in my small family owned excavating business. I wanted it for doing terrace and waterway work primariliy with a occasional building pad or farm access road job. While i would have liked a bit bigger machine i went with the 613 as it is easy to transport either by roading it or by hauling on my lowboy, i also needed it to be sized to match up with my D5 cat for push loading and ole #12 cat grader. I just finished replacing the defective engine..3208 turbo..and hope to put it in the dirt for the first time next week as the weather is forecast to warm up nicely then for a while. Got 3 acres of nrcs waterway to finish building with it...and 1/2 mile of ditch to dig and build up a field access road with the material. It will be scraper school 101 for me next week.
Good luck with it. Unless you are a lot dryer and warmer than we are here good luck. My machine of choice for NRCS waterways here is my D7 pulling A Cat No. 70 scraper. Works terriffic along with a D3 for cleanup and finish. I can see where the paddle wheel scraper would be great for this.
TS14B. End of conversation.
615C does well For the work that comes our way, the 615C is a very good sized machine and the cost per hour is much less than a 623. Cat chose not to continue making the model since emissions would require a redesign and not enough units were being sold to justify this. I believe the number and type of scrapers will be very limited for the next 5 to 7 years as we wrestle with emissions and the economy.
if its not a cat its a dog, the reason they paint terexs green is so they can hide in the weeds when the cats come by.
Agreed:drinkup Bob aka ZZ
Photo Quilts, Memory Quilts, Picture Quilts the best product Ballet Music
No mention of the 621B scraper. At one time it was the most desirable machine out there. The most efficient scraper ever made was the Cat DW21, although direct drive and a cable machine, nothing could move dirt cheaper. Phil
:beatsme Just wonderin whats this gotta do with pans/scrapers?? :drinkup Bob aka ZZ
i was wondering that too
Pretty sure there are no scraperhands that listen to ballet music @ work! Or at home for that matter.
Did work with a panhandler/scraperhand one time who listened to classical (betovehen/motzart etc.) with a big ole stogie hangin out his mouth. Never saw him with one outta the cab. One of the best I ever ran with. Alot of stories from that job. Just can't remember em all(1994) lotta bumps since then(an a few brown bottles):drinkup Bob aka ZZ
TS14Bs Greetings ,I owned an interesting TS14b here in Australia as it was one of the Brazillian models fitted with twin v653 GMs.The 53s could handle 2800 rpms all day and to keep the speed down they were fitted with 456 ratio diffs.My rear diff failed and there was none to be had in OZ so we reratioed them to the more common 411 ratio that was matched to the 471GMs.Didn,t make much difference down low but made it very fast in top gear.Terex scoop being lighter than the 627 would move more dirt for less fuel burned.The 14s are so tough and easily repaired but not as nice to drive as the Cats.I know of a Contractor out west who had some Cat scrapers and one old ts14 and when his operators asked him why he didn,t get rid of the aged Terex said"son that machine made me my first million dollars and I wouldn,t be where i was today without it"
Agreed!!..... the venerable old TS-14 is a great machine.... just a little underpowered, less capacity, and much slower than its older brothers; the TS-18 and TS-24. I own both the TS-14's and TS-18's and there is so much difference in vehicular speed, that when I am forced (due to eqt breakdown) to insert a TS-14 in the mix of larger haul units; it irritates the whole crew, nobody excluded............
the company I work for has a fleet of ts-14's. I love to run them. never ran anything else to compare them to.