Scrapers seem to be stuck in the stone age. There doesn't seem to be much difference between a 1960 model and a 1990s model compared to the changes in tractors, cars, combines and highway tractors. What gives ? Why aren't scrapers more refined ?
Why don't scrapers have air ride cabs like highway tractors ? Does the cushion hitch on a 627 make a difference ? Thanks
Someguy, you need to take a look at some really old scrapers and rethink that statement! In the 1920's scrapers started out as a simple scoop that dragged on the ground, pulled by horses.Then tractors. RG LeTourneau put the first "modern" scrapers on steel wheels, then rubber tires. Then upgraded them from mechanical means to electrically operated winches. First though, he had to develop the wire rope that made that possible. He then was largely responsible for developing the modern rubber tire strong enough to handle the weight of earthmoving equipment. He developed the molds to make the tires, and swung a deal with Firestone where he sold the molds to them, after agreeing to buy the first million dollars worth they made! Then he thought, why not make the scraper move itself? So one guy could operate it. Early rubber tired scrapers steered with steering clutches! Then RG decided to equip his with electric motors for almost all functions, including steering. Everybody else tried hydraulics, or had to stick with a 2 axle tractor. He got competition with Euclid, who made the first twin engine scraper in the late 40's, and later Cat in the late 40's after WW2. Early hydraulics were slow compared to the cable units of the time, which is why they took awhile to come into further use, probably after hose technology allowed the use of the higher pressures to make the hydraulic sytems faster and more powerful. Look under the back of an old DW21 sometime, look at how complicated the cable sytem is, and those huge return springs behind the ejector! And 4 rams to steer it with. So as the late 50's early 60's come along, the 2 axle tractor fades from the scene except in the largest scrapers. Cat came out with the cushion hitch in about 1965, and started to take over the scraper market because of it. Ask anybody who ever ran a stiff neck how much better the ride is with the cushion hitch! I'll bet Cat guards those patents like a hawk. The early 60's also brought the 2nd major innovation, the automatic transmission, into widespread use, which no modern scraper is without. Cat is largely responsible for the push-pull concept, which allowed scrapers to get away from using pushcats. Case in point, a 627A had app. 400 Horsepower and a G has about 550, That's what a 651 had in 1965! We have electronic engine management, shift synchronisation, AC, sealed cabs with filtered air, boosted steering and very low effort controls, computers that can weigh each load onboard, etc etc..... About the only thing that has stayed the same is the basic layout of the machine itself, and the same can be said of dozers, loaders, blades, etc. They still do the same basic job they did in the 1930's or earlier, so they still bear a resemblance to those early machines. Until somebody makes a scraper ride on a cushion of air, or levitate on magnets, the basic layout won't change. Maybe, can't change. After all, a model T and a modern car still basically do the same thing, don't they? They are still a box on 4 wheels to carry people around... Sorry about the long winded post....I'm done preachin' now! Chime in, somebody... alan
Refinements ? That's kinda like asking a cowboy, how come ?, no cab on the horse . The KISS principal, ( Keep It Simple Stupid , Principal )still applies today. Have basic tools, such as a hand shovel have a computer on it ? No ! If you have a floating air ride cab, then you would feel no bumps and would not slow down ! If you feel the pain, and slow down , then the machine is saved from abuse , and lasts a lot longer , just like your body !
I think the bigger issue is that at least I have not seen a new scrapper, always see some POS Terex scrapper.
I guess I have spent time in modern combines, tractors and trucks and I see huge differences between them and scrapers.
If it aint broke, don't fix it:cool2 Seriously though, even though I've not set foot in a self propelled scraper, I can tell you just by looking at brochure, etc... that the cabs are a lot more user friendly... I wouldn't be surprised if the new ones do have air ride seats, they went from three controls to a joystick, heat, A/C, CD player AM/FM radio.... Newer engine, hydraulic, transmission technology. Alan is right though, the basic layout hasn't changed, cause really, does it need to?:beatsme
Scrapers are simple, Stuff as much dirt in between two engines and move it as fast as you can. Im not sure what you can really change from that. The new G series Cats have sloped sheet metal, a lot better than the Es and Fs. As for the single joystick control like Jimi mentioned. They can take that pile of crap and get rid of it. Gimme back 3 sticks with an apron trigger on the bowl lever, it worked just fine.
There has been a huge change in scrapers. At the last RB auction I got to see a 627G sitting beside a TS14B. The basic layout is the same but the design has proved itself. Most other equipment hasn't changed much in the last 30-40yrs. Look at excavators, other than pilot controls what's changed in the last 25 years? Still 2 sticks, engine behind you and bucket off to the side a bit. Performance is what's changed. That being said... Sureway has had the new 627H for the last year or so I believe. I have talked to the operator who was running it and he was able to give me some information on it. SUSPENSION has finally made its way into a scraper. I heard the rumor the 657H was running around on a site somewhere but haven't heard much more from the Sureway guys.
Man, suspension? More parts to break. Cushion hitches dont last very long. Although cushion hitches were not made to improve the ride, they were made to keep the gooseneck in one piece
Articulated trucks run suspension. The bushings wear out from time to time, but other than that they work great.
Have you guys forgotten our friend hdtruck has a revolutionary new design in the works?:naughty
There's only so much you can redesign on a wheel borrow, I have a recently aquired 2000 623F aside from the air seat, pilot controls dash, and cab insulation the major changes are a redesigned scraper ( same as the current G's) the upper elevator frame support was moved to the outside of the bowl and we can finally change rear tires without removing the wheel ( don't know why that took so long on the 623's) Chain adjustment is by grease gun instead if raising the idlers manually.
Here's the difference
Interesting, DPete. Much easier to service. If you guys want to see innovation, look at farm equipment. Since the 1960s, tractors went from 2WD to 4WD, average power has gone from 100HP to 450HP. The old cabs didn't even have air conditioning. Now they have air CD players, GPS, powershift transmissions, electronic hydraulics and way, way more comfort. Combines have changed too. In the late 60s, combines had gas engines, 100HP, 100 bushel hoppers, etc. Now they have 300 bushel hoppers, 300 HP, 30+ foot headers, auto speed control, etc.
Pete Is there a provision to shim the axle to adjust for differing tire height like on the older models? I have been wondering, but never have had a chance to look at the newer ones.
Good question, I don't see any way to adjust for different size tires but I'll find out. There's a ring of bolts where the axle bolts to the frame, it may be an eccentric type adjustment. I'll let you know what I find out. Just got off the phone with Quinn's shop super, according to him there is no adjustment. Try to match tires the best you can plus a little air pressure adjustment.
How the new scraper working out for you? Have you gotten much work for it or is things still slow. Do you miss the 8's and scraper? What are you using for dozers not.Just wondering.:usa
Sounds like no more buying new drivers then putting the 50% used drives on the back. The drive tires never wear quite even. Now you need a matched set. The tire pressure thing only works some, lets you lean more and more as the can fills up. I agree its nice to change the tire, but the adjustment made life better in a lot of ways. Many of the younger generation do not want to work that hard to get things right, so the adjustment is probably lost on many of them.
Haven't had it on a job yet, not much doing here. I'm supposed to be helping with both 623's on a water treatment job but they keep pushing the date back because of permit issues. Now they say Feb. Have not needed a dozer either, the 8K's are still in my yard I could rent one back if needed. I saw an 07' D6R EROPS, 6s, ripper , sweeps & screens W/ 960 hours go for $170K at Ritchie Bros. Not going to take that step until work opens up. Gettin good at sittin on butt
I was just wondering how things have been.You need to at least try your new machine out ,if nothing else practice a little on the back forty . I have been busy all years and have work to do,but here the weather has been terrible since this time last year. Foot of frost here and more on the way,so i'm setting also.I do farm work and can't fight the frost ,plus never made any money doing it ,always costed me in the long run. Have had a pretty good year,but if not for the bad weather it could have been a awesome year. Don't know about the new year,but have backlog of work because of the weather.Just hope they don't change there mind come spring. When you get things rolling post a few pic of your new scraper moving dirt.:usa
where i work they have put a little satelite antena on the cabs of our scrapers, its tied into the onboard computer, lets some one know of idle times over raps i think pretty much everything its doin or not doin, the g even reports load count. i heard a boss hassling an operator about a transmission red flag on his computer, it was from going from n to 8 without having the brake depressed, so in some cases a good evolution in other cases a not so good evolution
Cat recently put out a booklet titled "Debunking scraper myths" and this gives a very good insight where Cat is heading with there line. They actually see them as a growth product for the future and are aligning them technology wise with other Cat lines and bring out new H series models across the board in the next few years. With the urbanisation of other parts of the world plus the lack of supply of trucks for mining the scraper is finding a bit of reception and a re-emergence in some countries. The big issues are ride and operator training and a fantastic simulator is very close to release to address this issue along with some new ideas for ride and comfort.
i think it was burnout who said he has seen an h model 27, i looked on cat.com didnt find anything. ide like to see some pics. they cant make running one any easier, with the joystick, and trany p for park and d for drive, running one just gets easier and easier, but no matter what technology does to the scraper operating one will still take some experience. sometimes i get to run a 37d model against a 37g and 37e2s its fun for a day or two, they might be more comfy and have better stereos, but the d has paid for itsself 100 times over and at $800,000 the g cant haul anymore dirt. i know the g is burning less fuel and is more reliable i just chuckle to myself knowing that the 35 years that separates the two machines they are still so much alike, for the h i would put the g model cab and controls on an e2 scraper, and position the cab back to the e2 position, when they moved the cab 2 feet over for the g i think they messed up the balance.:my2c
Evovlement????????????????? Hi, Someguy. Have you ever operated a cable-controlled LeTourneau LP scoop behind a Cat D8 1H, 8R or 2U crawler with slidebar transmission? Funny thing but I notice that most of the 'evolovement' that you have mentioned as taking place with combines and farm tractors has also taken place with scrapers - more horsepower, bigger bowls, better cabs, a/c, stereo radios, stereo CD players, pressurised cabs, computerisation(??????????), improved(?) controls, GPS, laser monitoring and control, etc., etc.. And what about the cushion hitch that has been mentioned above? Doesn't THAT count as evolvement? If it doesn't in your book, I betchya there are a few scraper operators here who would disagree with you. What more do you want? Maybe an exercise machine so that the poor down-trodden, ill treated, under-worked, over-paid operator doesn't get fat and lazy while spending 10 - 12 hours a day flat on his fat butt in the air-ride, suspended-cab seat, listening to his favourite heavy metal rapper band? The basic shape hasn't changed much because it hasn't NEEDED to change to do its job very efficiently and effectively and if it ain't broke, why fix it? There have been some variations from the original/conventional scraper. That's why we now have elevating scrapers and scrapers fitted with augers for elevating and twin-power scrapers and push-pull scrapers. You might like to try a Google search for 'hoeing apron scraper'. Have you ever heard of that jigger? (Since you seem to need some 'eye-opening' exercise, I'll leave you to do the legwork on that one.) Scrapers have also been hooked up in tandem and even as triples with ONE operator. Ever try doing THAT with 2 or 3 combines? And just for chuckles, in my days on wheat farms, we had 1,000 bushel trailing bins alongside the harvester/combine with the harvester/combine emptying into the trailer via an auger as you worked so that you could harvest for longer and stop less. And THAT was in the EARLY 1960's, in a little, backwoods, under-privileged, un-developed country called Australia, way down there almost on the butt end of the earth. LOL. Without wishing to put you down, may I suggest that you do a little more research before posting questions like this in the future. The information is all out there if you will but look.
Someguy, might I suggest you go to the library and check out "Mover Of Men And Mountains" by R.G. LeTourneau. A good look into the mind of a very smart man who started out as a farmer and dirt stiff. He spent a lot of time in the seat but instead of daydreaming he was thinking all the time. Also a man who in his minds eye could see what had to be done and then went ahead and did it. It is really unbelievable what that man accomplished in a lifetime. He did more with an eight grade education than all the smart ones with their Harvard MBAs trying to run this country will ever accomplish.
Yeah......and you prayed that you didn't have to go all the way over yonder to low reverse first thing on a cold morning.
Heh heh, you forgot to mention when one strand of cable wears through and bunches up inside a sheave block and all you have is a hammer, bar and cable cutter to get her goin. I'm young enough that I missed the 2U's but spent many an hour on a 14A cable scraper, dozer. I don't forget changing draw back springs either on Cat scrapers, what a job. Come to think of it I'm lazy as hell now from all the progress.
Im only 26, but ive done my fair share of apron cables on a TS14B. Its not a bad little project. Most of the time you can do it yourself, but occasionally you cant get the cable wedge out. Our 14s usually had an extra apron cable or two with them. Favorite storage location was on the front in front of the grill, zip tied to the machine.
The cushion hitch on the 627 has been there since the early days. There hasn't been much improvement in ride quality since. Rock trucks have suspension. TS24Bs have nitrogen shocks. Has Cat put any suspension under its scrapers ? Nope. I've heard that ejector cylinders can be damaged if one happens to load with them extended. Is there a warning system to alert an absent minded operator ? The 627 cab is the same size it has always been. Does it have a trainer seat ? Nope. The noise level is rated at 80.5 dB. The sight lines on scrapers aren't great. Can you see into the bowl when loading ? I love how the tach in the new 627s will show the RPM of one engine, either the front or the rear. How about putting 2 needles on the tach and let the operator see the speed of both engines ? If the new scrapers are so much better than the old ones, why is everyone keeping their old iron ? Before you say the cost of buying new is too great, farmer generally run newish combines and tractors and you put way less hours on them in a year than you do a scraper.
Someguy, how much seat time do you have in a scraper?
I grew up with scrapers. My family ran a large road construction company. I left that scene and now I am being asked to come back.
Don't beat around the bush, answer my question. How many hours have you spent in the seat of a scraper?
Seat Time in a Scraper My guess is about 2 minutes sitting in a new one at the Dealer.
Im going to figure less than 100. Hes probably the guy you have to go rescue after sliding off the side of a stockpile. Dont get me wrong, ive been there myself, but that was many moons ago, and I have since learned a few trucks from the old indians
Nice attitude, guys. It wouldn't matter how many hours I told you guys I had because you'd come on and criticize it. Fine. So be it.
If you don’t like what other people’s posts have to say, than don’t read them. That's the beauty of an internet forum. You need a little thicker skin if you’re going to participate in online debates on a forum, let alone survive on a big dirt project. You stated in another post, “There is a lot of experience on this board. I'm trying to learn as much as I can…” There is no better way to learn than through a debate, but you won’t get anywhere if you cut and run when things get a little hot. I’ve been watching your posts this week and refrained from posting because of the obviousness of your lack of experience. The ambiguity of your screen-name coupled with a barrage of vague questions from someone we’ve never seen post before doesn’t do much but put off a lot of people in this community. But I figure since I’ve got some free time, I might be willing to get into this debate with you, but first I want to know how much time you’ve actually spent pulling a can lever? So answer the question, and we’ll go from there.
Someguy, I came very close to asking a similar question of you last week when you started the "What is your edge in business?" thread. Veterans who have been in the business for a while are pretty good at sniffing out B/S. I've never been involved with scrapers and am curious about your experience in the field. Mass-X has offered an opportunity for you to explain this, it might help members form answers for you. If you choose to alienate yourself I'm pretty sure a number of very experienced members will choose to ignore you.
give some ideas on how to inprove the best dirt moving machine on 4 tire's
As far as loading with the cushion hitch up if you forgot, it didn't take long to notice.You had a hard time getting the scraper to go into the ground until you released the hitch and it came down.Just like a dozer on float. As far as training seat.I was the trainer and the new guys was the trainees.The training seat was a scraper seat mounted on the fender of the scraper behing the trainee.You made sure the seatbelt was good and tight. I was training guys that had never run push and pull 637's.It wasn't bad when you was operating the machine(you had control) ,but riding behing with some of those guys was darn scary,i tell you. I finally told the super that if he wanted me to keep working there to do his own training( even tho i needed the job,had a family to feed),that i didn't hire out or get paid enough to train those guys. Now days OSHA would have shut you down. AS far as now days a seat behind, is being taking place by the simulators,at least i would hope so. The company was new and started out with four push and pulls.Then added two more and started up night shift.It was a night mare when you showed up to work the next day(dayshift).Bails broke off hanging.Radiators bent or smashed to crap and leaking. Blowed rear motor motors from over rapping.Bent front bumpers,fenders and the list goes on.I don't know how many times you had to run your twin barrel as a single until they got another engine or trans.They finally got smart enough to keep spare complete units to change over too,when the other went down. You didn't have to worry about being the front man ,because you was always the last guy back to the cut.Plus couldn't pull with a full loaded scraper and single engine anyway. The soils type was sandy loam(sugar clay,blow sand) just a few names it was called.Back slopes was cut 1/4 to 1 with benches every 10 to 15 ft. in the cuts.Grader has to rub the slopes down with the blade run out to the sides almost straight up and down. You always had to be crowding the slopes to keep them as straight up and down as you could,but not to far where the draft tubes was scraping into the slopes. Those was the days when the inspectors was tuff to satify The job was at Mound City ,MO. on I-29 in 1971.:usa
mass-x if you will go to best bang for buck scraper and read post #19 you will find out just how much some guy knows about scrapers
ahhh Busted!!!!!!!
Busted... by a bunch of know it all scraper operators. :rollseyes: How will I ever live ? I didn't realize you had to be a scraper God to ask questions on these forums. For some silly reason I thought it was a place to learn and exchange ideas.
Your Wayyyy to Smart for the Construction Business. Someguy, you are way to smart to be on the Construction Side of this Business. With the Depth of Knowledge you have in the Field of Construction, you would be a "Natural" as an INSPECTOR.
Good one roddyo.----Aaaaaaaa-Men
Like a troll?
OK.. I admit that it's not right for me to call anybody a troll. And I'm sorry. :notworthy So ask away Someguy. You've got allot to learn.
O man ROP!!! i just peed my pants on that one But honestly, mabey we should lay off someguy, he just wants to learn somthing like the rest of us!
I suggested he go to the library and find the book by R.G. Letourneau. If he does he will find what scrapers have evolved from and how. He can skip the preaching part and just read how this all happened. Used to get Mr. Letourneau,s monthly newsletter a long time ago in the Seabee,s. He wanted everybody to learn how to move dirt. Object being to get it from point A to point B with the least amount of fuss and expense.
Here's something different Here's how some scrapers have evolved in Europe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq-x-FYj87Y&NR=1 Certainly different! May even be a great scraper in some situations. Has anyone here used one? Have fun, AusDave
This coming from Mr. Backhoe man that says "Down here $50,000.00 a year is a pretty good living."
The Wind Jammer Returns I would say that when the "Median Household Income" in Arkansas is $38,134 that a guy who averages working 4 days a week making $50,000.00 a year is a pretty big deal to him. If you would like to look it up heres a link for you. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/elections/keyraces/census/ar/ The thing about most of these guy's running backhoes is they MIGHT make $20,000.00 a year working 5 to 6 days a week for someone else. I got a backhoe but I'm not in the Backhoe Business. As a matter of fact I don't even know where it is right now. I haven't known where it's been for over 3 weeks. I friend of mine needed me to do some work at his hunting cabin and I told him to come get it and bring it back when he's done. That's how important the "Backhoe Business" and the $50,000.00 a year that goes with it is to me.
I hate to make threats, and hate even more to make good on them, but I'm gonna make one anyway. It literally takes two clicks of the mouse to lock a thread. Let's try to cease and desist with the off topic bickering, please.
Seeing that you know about the tach feature in the new 627G's I would have to take it you have run one for a day. Please run a 68M serial number prefix 627 for a day and see if you notice the difference between the two machines. Well the cost of buying is not too great, however a new 627G with a push pull arrangement is roughly 850K. Not to many contractors spending that type of cash during these times.
because theres not much else you can improve on them
Tach? What's that? I've only run one scraper that it worked on. I use the audio tach, a guy with experience knows what they sound like in their safe operating range, and when they are about to blow up! LOL! Maybe if you get lucky enough to run a newer one with a quiet cab, you'd need it... alan627b