Ok, here's the scenario - I have a load pit where I'm digging fairly soft material. I'll need to move thousands of yards of material and I'm using a 939 track loader which is working fine. We're cutting into a hill and the elevation is now around 12-14 feet above the ground. Here's the question: With the material 12-14 feet high, am I better off to just keep digging from ground level and load the trucks or would I be better off to climb on top of the pile and cut into the bank to loosen the material and then load it.
Pushing DOWN with a loader? No, keep going like you are, you are basically running a face shovel, especially in soft ground. Stay on the ground. You push down with a loader, you'll be chasing it all over heck. Who told you to go up on a deck....an excavator operator?
I would venture up to the top and push some dirt down. I had somewhat the same situation last year except I was using a 953. I was climbing up pushing dirt down for a few hours and then go back to the loading area. The looser the dirt is the easier it is to move. How many bucketfuls does it normally take to load a truck?, and how long per average load?
Couple of things to consider with the strong points already made: 1. How close are you to the road or access point for your trucks... One of the things about face loading is that you continually make the trucks get farther and farther off the road... if the ground is soft or you get an inexperienced driver you can spend as much time pulling trucks around as loading them. 2. Another this is the type of material... in PA if you have topsoil we do what Burnout suggests... load most of the day and spend the last 1 or 2 hours of the day (most truck drivers are done around 3:30 or 4 here) pushing material and mixing it around so it drys that night and is good loadable dirt in the morning. Just some thoughts!
In this case - I'm both the truck driver and loader operator - the haul is all on site and the load and dump distance is around 1/8 -1/4 mile. It takes around 6 buckets to load the truck and the machine has to work pretty hard to get a full bucket. On the other hand, when I go top side and push the material over the hill, I can load the truck really quick. It's hard to figure - sure I can load it really quick when I push it off the top, but then again I have to figure the time it takes to do this as well. Just wondering which method is best, I have a lot of material to move!
Since the job is large, why nor TIME it both ways. See how long it takes staying at bottom versus driving all over town with soft soil....think I know how this will pan out. Measure both methods against full trucks at the end of both days.
That's just the problem - if I spend 2-3 hours on top of the hill to make the digging easier, I lose 2-3 hours of hauling time. That's why I was wondering if anyone did some research to see if pushing dirt down would be an advantage.
Only way to answer your question in this exact context, hoss, is with the stopwatch. It might be close, but a big job will justify the stopwatch, after a time...
Well the way I see it is you have alot of material to move, your track loader will dig it out of the face , but works the machine pretty hard , if you push it donw the hill it breaks it up and makes it easier to load out , question is do you have a deadline to move the material ? and is the material needed at the other location on the site going to be used right away or stock piled? , if not spend a half or all day pushing down the material , get a good stock pile going , then the next half of the day or next day load it out non stop , either way the material has to be moved ,right,? Thats only what I think though
I ran into this situation with my 955K working on the farm building a pad to build a shed on, if it ever dries out. The point I want to make is how do you have to leave the pit when you are finished? Can you leave like it is or do you have to work the grade down? I got into the situation and stopped and starting grading down the slope to help keep everything looking like it would be when I leave it. Now looking back I think next time I will grade down and pile my dirt up. I know it probably isn't cost effective to touch dirt twice but being a novice at operating a trackloader I think it works better for me. Now if I got to bring the excavator home again I would not worry with it because I can go to the "wall" and grade it down into a slope.
2-3 Hours? I doubt I spent that much time pushing down material the entire 2 months I was on that job. I was normally spending 5 minutes pushing enough material down. What I did was make myself a loading ramp about 4ft tall and it was about 40ft wide for loading the trailers. I never travelled more than 25ft from the ramp for dirt to load. A lot of the time I would be wiggling my way around in there. I worked myself into a little cubby hole for truck loading. I have a video here somewhere, I will post it up to you tube. On average I was taking care of 15-20 trucks with a 50 minute round trip.
hold on a second, you said that you were loading 20 trucks in 50 minutes? that is a truck every 2.5 mins. and you said they were trailers? well if you had lets say 40 yd trailers and you were loading with what a 953 with a 2.5 yd bucket that means that you at least 16 buckets per trailer...that means you put a buckt in the truck every 10 seconds. not saying you didn't but please define what you were loading and sith what please
i have run a ton of 53's, and i load a trailer in 6 or 7 buckets. and i always tried to push down a working pile. it loosens up the dirt to make it easier to load and spread. and truck placement is more important than anything. back 'em in all the way down to grade as you go or when you clean up what tight to the pile so you only have to turn 45 to 90degrees. also, don't cut exactly to grade. if you do, when you clean up the mess your tracks make, you will be low. and, if it rains, you can cut your slop off and get to work without worrying about cutting a hole.
Ok out of the max of 20 trucks 3 were trailers. It took me around 4-5 minutes to load a trailer. The trucks we're loaded in 2 minutes max. I was getting big full heaped buckets. The trucks we're getting 4 buckets each, the trailers 8 or 9 buckets. I will switch over to the other computer and get the video up. It was the first of the cinematic features I seem to end up taking. It is around 7 minutes and I load a few trucks. The way we were loading was off a 150ftx600ft pile that was around 50ft tall when we started. I was hauled in when the pile was only 15-20ft tall and I took out most of the bottom side of that pile. When a truck would pull in they could turn around at the back of the pile and pull up to my ramp. When the trucks were pulling in I was waiting with a bucket. I was also loading topsoil and it was the middle of winter. Everynight I would leave the area nice and flat so that it could freeze overnight and give me a nice area to sit drive on. Made turning faster, the ramp nice and hard and everything was easy as pie.
Let me ask you guys another question - since after I load the truck I have to go dump it, I generally let the 939 idle for a minute or so to cool down the turbo before I shut it down otherwise it will have to remain idling for 15 minutes or so. How log do you guys idle the machine before shutting it down? Thanks
Drive around to the top and push the top end of the embankment down. Loading will be a breaze after that.
Even if you spend 3-4 hours pushing the the top down, you will end up saveing time in the long run and less wear and tear on the 939 because you will be able to move the dirt and load it alot faster. Personaly i would probable go to the top and push for about half a day and the go down and load the other half. By the way i usualy let my equipment set idleing for about 5-10 mintues before i shut it down. Good luck
A very intresting question and some very good responses. I am not a track shovel operator though can put one to work some would argue that point but we will let it pass. :tong Personally I think I would push the muck down to speed up the bucket fill equation and ease up machine loading time but it is hard to tell until actually on site. A lot will depend on ease of access to the rear/top of the heap, how much you can loosen in a very short time, can I come down with the last bucket full etc,etc. As for idle time, do you have to shut the machine down ( safety ) ? for 10 - 15 mins if safe to do so I would let it idle rather than shut down and restart. I agree with the comment about leaving your work area high :yup learned that lesson the hard way :Banghead
Does anyone know the true idle time to cool the turbo down. 5-10 minutes seems a bit long, I'd be better off letting the machine idle since a run is only around 15 min or so. I used to run a excavator that had a computer in it so when you turned off the key it would auto-idle it for a few minutes to cool it off.
I have seen on machines it says to let the idle for 2 min. and 5 min. we let ours idle for only 2 min. before shut down , never had any problems and no weird sounds after they are off
The reason for this has always been oil coking in the plain bearing. Manufacturers are starting to loosen the reigns on this demand, however, because synthetics are less prone to coking. If you run synthetic in your machine, you can just shut her down. If, on the other hand, you run dino oil in your turbo machine, it will be best to let it idle 2 minutes, or so before shut down, ESPECIALLY if it is oil only (no coolant jacket turbocharger).
So here is a question about bucket capacities and how you fill the bucket. Will you get more pounds of dirt in the bucket using it as a face shovel in the pile, or will you get more in it scooping up loose dirt that you pushed off the pile? I know you well heap a bucket more loading loose material, but does bucketing up tight dirt account for that?
I would really like to see the documentation to back this statement up.
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if i were doing this myself i think i would faceload and keep hauling . the machine is made to load the bucket even in ruff conditions :Banghead if u had a truckdriver and had sit time between loads i would definately crawl up and push down. since a driver isnt available and ur having to do 2 jobs u will get more done just letting the machine strain a little and keep loading and hauling. :drinkup:notworthy:cool2
Thank you.
The greatest operating expense on a track loader is the undercarriage. If it was my project, I would push some of the high wall down - this should not take several hours or 1/2 days to do to be productive. I have loaded many CY's of earth with a track loader into dump trucks out of stockpiles and hard banks. If the stockpile is loose enough to get a full bucket without much strain and track slippage, then pushing off the cut is not warranted. If the loader is straining loading a bucket out of the stockpile and you have a 12'-14' wall you are digging out of, then pushing off the top will pick up production and more importantly decrease wear and tear on the machine. Pushing down hill, especially with a tall wall, will be more productive in the long run if the material is difficult to dig at the face. Every situation and project has different conditions, I would suggest sacrificing a little time to see what works best for your particular situation. Pulling double duty loading the truck and then driving the truck makes for a long day........
If your cutting into a hill 12 to14 feet deep ,do it in 3 bench cuts with a 939 loader.That way you keep stability.
I would try benching and building a ramp to bring the truck up on the bench with you. Load out the higher lift(s) with the bench height where you feel the machine is working efficiently.
Cutting in benches provides problems in itself... What happens when you start driving a truck around on a pile of dirt? You pack the dirt even more, or the truck gets stuck. The whole point of pushing down on the pile is to give you nice loose dirt. Like CM said, most of your wear on a track loader is the UC. And with the 939 being a front engine machine instead of rear engine like the 3 Series machines your really working to get that bucket into the pile. Say you could increase each of your cycles by 10 seconds by not having to wrench your bucket into the ground..... thats what 30-40 seconds per truck? How many trucks per day? And how many over the life of the job. Getting yourself a ramp does work though. I don't know how the 939's react but I found when I boom up and drive or steer with my 953/973 the track speed slows down considerably because Cat gives their loaders bucket priority over drivetrain. If you can get a ramp so your not lifting up as high you will be game. And it allows you to see into the truck a lot better.
First of all I won't address your instantly resorting to name calling. It seems to be your standard operating procedure. Second I'd like to compliment you on your lightning fast internet. I'd love to have internet that fast. I live on an Island in the Gulf of Alaska and the internet access is only so so. I wasn't going to address this subject again because of your attitude, however, Idle up asked an important question and in my humble opinion got an extremely irresponsible answer by you. I missed the post where he had installed a Dodge Cummins Diesel in his track loader. Curious how it compares to the engine that came with the machine? All joking aside it seems funny the first four paragraphs distinctly point out the Dodge Cummins Diesel. This may be just the motor they did the test on. I don't know why they are so adamant about pointing this out. I also am having trouble finding where they state if you run synthetic oil you "Can just shut her down" Only that it helps prevent coking. Also having trouble finding where manufacturers are "loosening the reins". I've always been taught that one of the major reasons to let an engine idle is also to bring the turbo rpm down. According to this article: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm Turbos can spin in excess of 150,000 RPM, They spin 10 to 15 thousand RPM at idle. When you shut one down after high idle it can take a several minutes to stop spinning. That's without oil getting pumped to it. I don't see how this can be good for it, not to mention the heat factor. Amsoil definitely has a good product. They also have a lot of good articles on the net. I'm not sure about THOUSANDS in 2 seconds, but a bunch. There seems to be a question though on how fast turbos actually spin. This article, also supplied by Amsoil states 60 to 100,000. Its also a good read. http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/syntheticoilandturbochargers.htm I especially like this paragraph, In addition, when the engine and turbocharger are operating at maximum engine RPM and temperature a premium quality synthetic oil will provide for significantly improved cooling and heat transfer of the turbocharger unit and bearings as well as superior resistance to heat degradation of the oil. This will help to prolong the life of the turbocharger unit. It is also important not to shut a turbocharged engine off immediately after operation because the turbocharger needs to have oil flowing through it in order to cool it. Idle the engine for approximately 3-4 minutes for normal use up to 8-10 minutes after severe use. In my turbocharged diesel vehicles I use thermocouples in the turbo exhaust outlets in order to monitor exhaust gas temperatures and I also have an automatic idling and shut down system installed so I don’t have to sit there and wait in the vehicle. IdleUP, I think I would use this information in your decision as to how long to let your machine cool down. Or go by the manufacturers recommendation. Don't believe everything you read. There's so much blatant misinformation on the net, and no shortage of people that just pass it along. If it was me and it only took 15 minutes between loads I'd just let it Idle. Your starter will appreciate it.
I am no expert on mechanics, turbos......... or anything come to that but I have to say this was always my understanding from a laymans point of view I have to agree 100% as I've already mentioned, if it is safe I would let it idle whilst tipping the truck. :drinkup
Here is a rugh sketch of the bench cut methed Idleup.It may, or may not work for your job.It works with dozers,highlifts,scrapers,excavaters,trucks.The ground needs to be solid for trucks & scapers.start at the top and work your way down.If you are working with a loose spoil pile I would crawl on top and knock it down a bit.I let my dozer cool off about 10 minutes on a hot day before shutting it down.
Normally it once I go up against the material pile it takes about 4-6 seconds to get a bucket. During that time the machine is working pretty hard. When I push material off the top of the pile and take a 1 ft bite, it works the machine pretty hard as well. Seems like however you do it you still have to work the machine to end up with the material. I also found out that I can get some easy material loose by hitting the pile around 3-4 feet from the top of the pile which easily breaks the material out of the wall. By the way thanks for the drawing of the bench cut!
I know what you mean.It's an uphill battle.It sounds like the best piece of equipment for your job is an excavater.Crawl on top & load the trucks.The highlift dozer will do the job fine,but it's nut as efficient as the excavater.Send us pics & hope all goe's well.
Ok guys- I have a few other questions: 1) When I hit the pile and I'm rolling the bucket back to load it, I try to keep the tracks from spinning too much - any pros or cons here? 2) On my 939 loader I generally run the throttle around 40- 50% open, seems any faster does not really help the machine dig any faster since once I hit the pile, it's a factor of the tracks traction and not really power. In other words - I can spin the tracks up against the pile just above idle so I don't see any advantage of the engine much above half throttle. Where do you guys run the throttle? Thanks
I come into the bottom of the pile easy,while raising the loader allow the tractor to push forward ,then roll the bucket back without spinning the tracks.I have a decelerater peddel on my dozer ,so I just give it what it needs at the time.
When you go into the bank, use the bucket curl and the lift arm cylinders to get full potential out of your machine. In other words when the bucket starts to cut into the pile, start curling the bucket and raising the lift arms - feathering the forward movement to help prevent track slippage, which is just wasting steel, time and diesel fuel. In other words doing 3 things at one time. I would attribute that to either the bank has a soft spot in the 3-4 feet from the top or you are already on track with using both the bucket and lift arm cylinders to achieve a full bucket easier. Burnout has the right plan, I try to do the same. I can't speak for the 939, as I have never ran one, but I run my 953 at full throttle. It's the only way to get any production out of it.
Here's a few images of my equipment and job. Up by the road we have a 35 foot deep hole to fill, we're hauling from a pit on the same property.
That is an interesting A/C unit on the back top of the cab. I have am '04 D5G which has been a very good tractor, but the A/C condensor(?) does not look like that. I see a Yancey sticker on it so it probably was originally sold in GA, just curious. On edit, what are you filling the hole for?
I take it your 939C is Hydrostat? If so they must have a completely different setup than the 3 Series loaders. Like CM said with the 53/63/73 you get nothing without being at wide open throttle. The 939 I tried out was a powershift unit and it was pretty old. I would guess they use the same Hystat setup as the small G and C series dozers? Its a good lookin loader though.
First job on a 963 I ever had was loading out asphalt millings onto triaxles from a stockpile that had sat for 3 years at least. Anyone who knows mills, knows if you let them sit they will set up nice and hard. If I didn't go up top and push material down it was hard as hell if not impossible to get a full bucket from anywhere but the sides. There was some down time between trucks (I had 4-6 of them) and so I would always have time to run up top and give myself something easier to load once the trucks came back. And finally, keep this in mind, you can always PUSH more material than you can CARRY. So 5-10 minutes of pushing off material to load could give you a few truck loads worth. Just my thoughts though, its you're game, play it how you like it:drinkup
Idleup, where are you working at, are you out near Smith Mountain Lake?, I noticed the Dairy Queen billboard. Good looking equipment you have by the way.
I hope I'm not stating the obvious but you do understand that you need to run/lift the bucket up the face to fill it in hardish digging. Diving in at the base and crowding the bucket back will make hard work of it and not fill it. As you start to penetrate at the base crowd the bucket back and lift the arms to run the teeth up the face, it takes practice to not spin the tracks, put yourself down the bonnet ( seat belt not on ) or stall the machine. I hated a face shovel after excavators as I was always shoving the machine away from the face, rather than trimming the face :Banghead smart ass didnt know it all after all
Atlas - I'm pretty much doing what you said. I pull up on the bucket to load the tracks to help prevent spinning, the rest is the function of the curl. By the way, the job is at SML Va! Thanks
I have been reading this post and thinking lots. do 939/933 track loaders load in this type of job load out tracks better than say a cat 311/312 ? I have diggers and a dozer, D3cxl hysat ,and have been thinking of getting a trackloader as well. any thoughts may help me as trackloaders stoped being used here a few years ago (955,951,941 type) .
In my opinion a excavator would do better for this type of job. Like I said this just my opinion, I sold my track loader 4 years ago, I wouldn't go back to a loader in the type of work we do.
As far as I'm concerned - at least for my type of work, the 939C is the best bet for a number of reasons; first it's only light, only around 20K, so it's no big deal to move it from place to place. If you get one, get the 4in1 bucket, you can use it for grading out sites, pushing material, loading material and best of all, if you clear property like I do, you can pick trees, brush or what ever and carry it to a pile. My machine is Hysat its an 06 model with a joystick, the further you push it the faster you go, plus you have two speeds on a button so you can easily move around in high then when you hit the pile drop down to low.
yes we do alot of new house sites and sum farm work. my d3 is the same drive as a 939 and is very ezy to move around. In stockpile type work would it out load a digger(311size) loading trucks ,6m3 loads?
Maybe,....... if you had some youngster who wanted to prove it with a stop watch :notworthy but now factor in the track wear and what it will cost you to have the pins turned or even new chains after a few thousand hours compared to a couple of sets of bucket tooth caps and I dont think there is a race
do you think that the digger has outdone the track loader in moden times or stil have ther place beside a digger? the Hystat ones must run rings around the old 931/935 type ? (clutch/brake). any help is usfull, thanks.
A track shovel with a 4in1 bucket and a man in the seat that can operate it is an amazing piece of equipment, but like every piece of equipment it has its limitations, along with a lack of experienced operators to make them shine. I spent last weekend working alongside an owner operated 953B ( I'm going to get hammered now for not even thinking to take a few pictures :Banghead ) We were lifting the hard area that had been the skip and storage area for the motorway contract that is about wound up now. The 953 skimmed 1/2" off the area to clear the surplus nuts, bolts, concrete snots etc then started to push the material into a windrow for me to load away. Depth varied from 6" to 12" and being crusher fines with a large tarmac content had gone down like concrete after 2 yrs of trucks hammering it. A dozer would have needed rippers or a tilt blade to make any impression on it whereas the bucket teeth gave him the penetration he needed. I ripped and threw some to assist with my 4' digging bucket between loads. There is now way that an excavator could have stripped the area as fast or as clean as that shovel, in twice the time that it took him. The 953 was then used to grade the topsoil, again far faster than any excavator could have done ( save maybe a 45tonner with a backfill blade ) So yes there is definetly still a place for a track shovel, depending on the work you do. As a machine to purely load trucks I would have to say no, but if its a day or 2 loading trucks followed by a few days placing and grading stone then it probably becomes a machine worth having. I spotted a comment that the new MTL and exc was the way to go in some peoples eyes, and although they are not a very common piece on UK sites ( like thumbs ) I can see the reasoning. A darn sight easier to learn to operate, easier to move, lighter, more attachments make them more versatile etc, etc. I would have to say anybody running an exc up to 20t size that was thinking of getting a trackshovel should have a very serious look at what a MTL can do. IMHO :drinkup
With out a doubt the 939C with the 4 in 1 bucket is a super machine, here's a few shots of the stock pile on my job. Of course all the trees on top have to come out of there. This one machine takes the trees down, carries them to the burn pile, pushes the material, and loads the trucks.
It would have helped if you posted a picture of the stock pile at the begining.An excavater is better for this job.You will get along fine with the highlift.The 939 with 4 in one bucket is a versitile unit.It will handel many tasks.Good luck with the job.
Sorry, I tend to disagree - Pound for pound a track loader with a 4 in 1 bucket would be tough to beat for this project. It's also very difficult for an excavator to hold a reasonable grade. This stock pile is over 2 acres in size.
i have said it before and said it agian but it amazes me that every one here will talk on and on about how a mtl/ctl is the best thing to come to the buesness in years, but a front end loader no way. it is what has made our company hundereds and hundreds of thousand dollars. we are small so hauling 3-4 differant machines to a site is to time consuming and haveing to deal with extra employs h*ll with that. every one says to take an excavator and load a truck drive it cross site and dump then push over with loader. but in my mind if the site small to mid sized 2 acares and down, if you had three men on the payroll you could move it faster with three track loaders, on small scale stuff one machine one to two men a loader is a great tool. all of this about track wear well we get around 4-5000 hours out of a set of rails(turning the pins) and on the 953b i think they were 3500, so i am sure it you move all the dirt that it did with a dump truck you would probably have to replace a set of tires in that amount of time, so 10 tires at 400 a piece and you are already not saving much. i know you will have an idler or 2 but still the savings is not that much. a good operator will not be that hard on the tracks if he watches what he is doing. i think that alot of the reason that people are going to excavators is that you can put alot more inexperanced operator on and they can preform.
Track loaders are a great piece of equipment.If If I only had one piece of heavy equipment ,It would be a high lift.It helps if we have all the facts & pictures at the begining of the thread.Then we can give better answers & advice.The stock pile is two acres in size,and 12 to 14 feet deep.That puts the job at 36,000 to 42,000 yards of dirt give or take.The cat 939 will do the job ,but it wont be as efficient loading trucks as an excavater.The excavater will load faster and burn less fuel.Im not telling any one how to do there job.Just giving past experience and opnion.Each piece of equipment has it's place.
As is often the case we make do with what we have and if we do and can make money, then BINGO I would agree that given the choice I would use an excavator, I would also have two trucks with drivers BUT its not my job or machines. Happy digging, and very nice looking equipment :drinkup