I have an 86 JD 410B. Any guidance on what temperatures I should expect to have to plug in the warmer? I find I am still having to plug it in before use even though its been in the 50s, sometimes 60s here in NH. Is that normal? I just did all my filter/fluid changes for the season with 10w 40 oil. At first I thought maybe I didn't prime the fuel lines correctly after the fuel filter change, but I plugged it in and got it going Friday and ran it all day. Then late afternoon yesterday it didn't want to start (I hadn't plugged in the warmer at all yesterday). I think it got up to the low 60s yesterday but I wasn't really measuring. What are you guys seeing with these old tractors?
My 310 and 410 are both a few years older than your’s, my machines get pluged in if it’s low 40’s or colder.. If it’s cranking slow and has’nt been pluged in I’ll sometimes spray a good shot of ether close to the air intake, so it just gets a little whiff... VROOM...
50s and 60s you really shouldn't need it. Id check the battery first to see if its still good, make sure you check your connections too. Some corrosion will really knock down the amperage available for cranking. You may also consider switching to a synthetic oil to help with cold weather cranking.
No starting aids? Glow plug, flame start, nothing like that? Personally, I'm not an advocate of ether. If used prudently, it has its place (below 40*) . As mentioned by redneckracin, check your batteries and cranking rpm. If she ain't spinning fast enough, she ain't generating heat to support combustion. A long life of excessive ether may have compromised compression and she might just be addicted
I haven't used ether in the year and a half I owned it, cant say anything about the previous owner(s). It started right up all last summer. Seems like looking at the battery and connections is a good place to start, or maybe it just isn't warming up from the cooler overnight temperatures.
That's not right, by the afternoon the engine was plenty warm at that temp. I have a similar about 89 JD and it will start down to 10 with one good battery, would probably start colder if I brought the battery inside, but I'll plug it in at 40 just to be easier on the engine, now that I have a block heater on it. If this was from the 1960's and didn't like to start below 50, I'd just live with that. The battery, cables, starter are all good places to look. Do a voltage drop test while it's cranking to see where to look closer. How much use does this get? do you have stale fuel in it? or do you use a tank a month or more? It's either cranking slow, or low on compression, or not getting good fuel. How does it run when cold? Posting a video might get you better answers, we're kinda guessing with very little info otherwise.
I have a 310A that has less than 500 hours on an overhaul. I don't plug it in or use ether down to 30 degrees. Below that, a quick snort of ether if I'm in a hurry, or plug it in for an hour before starting and she fires off quick. My only starting issues were related to a bad starter and then later on, a worn set of batteries. So, if you're having cranking woes, I'd start where the other guys said and check batteries, cables, and then starter. Does yours have the two 6 volt batteries, or a 12 volt battery? Mine has 2 6-volt batteries in series and it cranks way better than when we had a single 12v battery in it.
Doe's it have much crankcase blow-by ? Remove the oil fill cap with motor running and see if it doe's.
Have a Deere 310C … It was addicted to ether for starting 50 degrees or less. Got a block heater, that helped. BUT, New starter and new batteries, haven't used ether or heater in years. Mostly … the new starter turned it faster. Old starter bearings were worn allowing the rotor to drag on stator laminations.
The 4219/4276 engine has a little history with hard starting. First the use of ether has a bad habit of breaking all the top rings. I have seen these engines with all the top rings broken and still have good compression (and hard start). Leak down testing is the only way to find the problem without removing the head (sometimes). Does it smoke white when cranking without using any start aid? One indicator of compression issues. Another possibility is the engine has "B" pistons (base, which is standard build) and you would have to switch to "H" pistons (high) for improved starting. You can only use "H" pistons if the piston protrusion falls under a certain spec. Before I would dive into any engine issues you should have your injectors and injection pump tested first. Also rule out all the other basics....fuel pressure and supply, air cleaner..etc.
Took me a while to get home with some daylight and work this. I took the batteries out, charged them, and cleaned the connections and it fired right up. Probably not a good sign for the batteries right? I did not remove them and put them on tenders for the winter. They read 55% according to my charger, but had over 12V. After charged I let them sit over night disconnected and they held to 95%. What does the voltage drop test look like? Just hold a volt meter across positive and negative and monitor while cranking? It gets weekend warrior use, spent last year stumping and this year I am spreading fill. I am still on the diesel I put away in the winter with additive in it, slowly mixing in new diesel 5 gal at a time. I probably use 5 gal a weekend, two adds so far. After it starts, it runs great. I guess I will try to start Saturday and see how the batteries do then. One concern, should I be reading a high voltage while its running and charging the batteries? I know on cars, you should read ~14V and that tells you the alternator is charging. I am reading about 12.7V while its running. If the alternator was busted I wouldn't be able to run it all day though off the battery I would think.
You're seeing 12.7 @ the battery while running? That's no good. Possible alternator failure. 14.4 to 14.7 desired. Voltage drop. Positive lead on battery hot. Negative lead , start at battery, move to chassis ground, move to block, move to alternator case. At no point should your voltage change by more than one tenth of a volt. For example, you have 12.6v @ battery with engine off. And when you move to the frame, you have 12.3v you lost .3v in connection to ground from battery. This is just an example. That's how you narrow your search criteria. After you've checked and restored the ground side, change it up and chase power. Follow the path. Battery, starter, alternator/ ignition switch and so on. Same rule, no more than .1v loss. Good hunting
Thanks, that voltage drop test makes sense. If the alternator was dead, how long would I be able to run off battery? It has two 12V in parallel. I have never charged them until now. I put at least 10, probably 15hrs on the clock this year, since its been acting funny. Could never get that far on a car.
If you aren't using the lights, there is very little draw on the batteries once the engine is running with these older, non-electronic Deere's. My alternator died a few years back and I didn't have time to wait for it to get repaired. I could jump start off my truck in the morning and run all day with no issues. Note: I was not using my lights during this period.
Ok, sounds like I have the next thing to look at. Found the section in the manual for test. Thanks!
A note on voltage drop testing. It needs to be done with the wires loaded. Disable the injection pump so you can crank the engine without starting. Acceptable voltage drop on battery cables while cranking is 0.1 V drop per foot of cable. So a 5 ft cable would have up to 0.5 V of drop and be OK. Alternator wire testing you need the engine running with as many accessories on as possible (AC, lights, etc). The battery wire for the alt should not have more than 0.2 V drop and the ground side should be below 0.1 V.
It doesn't look like the stock alternator in there. Looks like it might be a 1 wire delco that ive been reading about. Anyway, it doesnt seem to be working. Any ideas how to get the right alternator for it? There are three options at the parts store 37amp, 51 amp, 65 amp (from memory)
Supply a serial number and I might be able to figure out what amperage yours is supposed to have. If you look at the John Deere parts catalog it shows them all subbing to a 65 A reman (SE501368).
I've had one wire delco alternators seem to drain the batteries. You said it started right up after you charged the batteries, the next step would be to charge them, leave the ground disconnected for a few days or weeks, then see if it starts right up. Then charge them (or fix the alternator) and see if they will hold a charge hooked up. Then you know if the batteries hold a charge on their own, and then if they hold a charge or are drained when installed. One wire alternators usually need a higher rpm to turn on, then they'll charge and keep charging at normal rpm. Once your engine has warmed up, rev it to full rpm and see what voltage you get. Any small alternator will work if you're not running lights, heater and wipers.
Good point, I was measuring in slow speed and usually use it in slow or bump it up a touch when using the hoe. I never use it in fast. The only thing I use are some fans that are installed when its hot. I will retest when I get a chance.
If it is a one wire Delco alternator set-up, a self exciting regulator can very easily be put in the alternator and it will charge when the engine is idling.
Here is a screen shot of the parts from Deere. They all sub up to 65 A.
Well, the alternator is definately a Delco and either I fixed it or it was working all along. Any idea what the wiring on the connector to the right does? The ground wire fell apart on me so I rewired and then I tested after I raised the engine speed and its working as you said it should, giving me about 14V. If that wiring signals it to turn on or something, then its possible that wasnt working due to a bad connection, but I didnt think to test just raising the idle speed before fixing that wiring.
Made a mistake in post removed till I can make corrections.
This is the configuration that I use. Looks like we were typing at the same time Ken.
Tinkerer is spot on. Here is the Delco 10SI Regulator schematic from Deere.
And here is an eBay link to the self exiting regulator that will make the alternator begin to/ and staying charging at engine idle speed. I use the $7.85 one. I think NAPA sells them also. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Desc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=delco+si+self+exciting The two prong plug with pigtails that goes on terminal 1 & 2 is available at most auto parts stores in my area.
If it needs the two small wires to work, then it's not a one wire alternator, and it should charge at idle right from the start. 14V is fine, that's not your problem if it stays 14v.
The Delco alternator I installed on my old Farmall something like 30 years ago looked just like that one. At the time I asked the guy at D&W Diesel, a local electric and injection shop how to wire it. I was told to connect the two wires in that plug together and run them to an oil pressure switch and on the other side of the switch connect a wire to the + side of the battery. Reason for the pressure switch is the tractor has a magneto and no real "on-off switch". Last I checked it's still charging just fine!
Pin #2 to "bat" terminal on what?
"bat" is the power out from the alternator to the battery. Although the configuration in the picture I posted really does require 3 wires it is commonly referred to as a one wire alternator set-up. I have installed those delco alternators without the self exciting regulator and they will not charge until the motor is turning about 1000 rpms. Once they start charging after increasing the speed they will cease to charge when they engine speed drops below about 1000 rpms. Perhaps if a regulator is in the circuit it will charge no matter what the speed is. I always remove the regulator when I do the one wire conversion. It is not needed. Maybe other people have had different results than me, that is what I experienced more than once.
I'm a bit confused. if you remove the regulator there wouldn't be any terminals to hook the wire to as the terminals are part of the regulator. Or are you talking about something other than a Delco 10SI alternator? A Delco 10DN alternator has the external regulator and the parallel slid terminals. The 10SI has internal regulator and slid terminals as part of the regulator and the terminals are in line.
You are very observant,Ken. I should have been more specific in regards to the fact I have only used the 10si model. That is why I keep referring to the self- exciting regulator as part of the one wire conversions I have done.
When I think of a "one wire alternator", there is ONE wire going to the big threaded terminal, it goes straight to the battery cable, and there is nothing on the two small spades. And it works once it gets revved up and usually charges at idle after that also. Some were stock, and you can replace the regulator in certain Delco alternators with a cheap "self exciting one wire" regulator, even pick your own charging voltage (13.x for something that runs a lot, 14.5 or higher if you only run it for a short period of time in the cold). The self exciting one wire regulators still have those terminals, but they don't need to be hooked up to work. #2 terminal is the voltage sense wire, it works fine hooked right to the bat terminal on a tractor, only problem would be if there's high amp draw and voltage drop then the battery won't get enough voltage and drain. If the sense wire was run to the main harness, then it would see the same voltage as the battery and "push" the alternator to keep up.