Hey everyone I wanted to start off by saying I am an excavation newbie. I am not a contractor just a private land owner looking to build on and maintain my land. I own a 2005 bobcat s185 that I have been very happy with. I have some land in rocky mountains and I am trying to build a small 800sq ft cabin. I have time as I am not in a huge hurry but I am on a budget. I am currently needing to finish grading the foundation area and dig out some rocks ranging from small to boulder size. I also need to dig a couple of 8 foot pits for geo engineers. I will need to dig septic test pits and other things such as plumbing trenches etc to finish build obviously. I am debating on buying the bobcat 709 backhoe attachment locally used for $4k or renting backhoe or small excavator as needed. I figure I could sell the attachment when I'm finished and recoup much of my expenses. If I rent I will obviously need to rent equipment several times throughout the process which could add up quick. I am about 45 minutes from closest equipment supplier as well which adds to rental costs. I know the attachment option will be much slower but will it get the job done and save money in the end? I would appreciate any input and suggestions on this situation. Thanks in advance.
Here is a photo of building site for an idea of what we are working with.
Bobcat hoes are typically for landscaping trenches and such. Not good at all for rock and hard stuff. That being said..... having a bobcat. You can also get/rent a breaker, and handle the rocks and such that way. You will likely have to use a breaker on a backhoe as well. As long as you aren't worried about over excavating, and possibly being very slow, possibly very labor intensive and very frustrating, you can get it done. You will have to use a breaker to break up big stuff, and that could be a royal pain, and could also be not that bad. Skid steers can do an impressive amount of work with some skills and finess. This is a nutshell explanation. I would say you can do it. Dont expect the hoe to dig deaper than 4 feet or so without benching. If you are ok with that, you can come back here or we can share info and I can give you tips and tricks for your specific plans and depths, and give you ideas on how to accomplish things, and what options would be cheaper. You have to remember that if you have to over excavate, it costs more in materials, whether it be form work or filling with concrete.
Just looked at the picture. Keep in mind also, 90% of the time, if there are rocks poking out, you can consider that the tip of the iceberg, but possibly only 1% or less of it. Not always, but that could be too much, or at the very least torturously slow, for a skid.
In my experience with that much rock around you will find that there are boulders twice the weight of any mini or skid steer As for breaking rock with a hammer most of the time hammers on a mini or skid steers wont make a dent in that much rock you need a 1000 lbs hammer or better and that requires a machine that's at least 16000 lbs For the record boulders are typically harder than solid rock in a vein In that scenario you need at least a 8000lbs mini and it might be able to do some work a full size backhoe would probably stand a good chance but no guarantee
Thanks for the input so far everyone! We actually did rent a 500lb force hammer to accomplish what we have done so far. There are some rocks in the middle of photo still sticking out that are very large below the surface as you mentioned as well. I was hoping I may be able to dig out the remaining rock with the hoe. I can always rent the hammer again as well. These rocks are the main reason I need to dig the test pits outside building area for geo engineers. Are engineered cabin plans call for icf stem wall to sit on undisturbed soil which is impossible with all this rock. So we are likely going to need to dig it down and put engineered fill in?? At least that is our assumption at this point. Geo engineers wont tell me anything until we have 2 pits 8-10ft deep for them to inspect and run lab tests on materials. I was hoping to dig these pits and possibly finish digging out some rock with the hoe. But what I am hearing here is I may need a full size excavator.
I was told the 709 hoe attachment can dig up to 9ft. Do you think that is not realistic? I have not seen one in person yet or used one so I have no idea.
I was managing a trenching job. Contractor had a Bobcat skidsteer & backhoe attachment. Just pulling up the cut pavement was too much for the combo. It was too light and slow. They brought in a Ford 555 for the job.
That looks like an explosives job! LOL
Lol that sounds expensive and dangerous under my control.
Ya, if it has continuous footings, you might have to take the rocks out and bring in fill dirt. With the amount of rock, you will likely not do much. You can attempt to dig around them, but there is no guarantee. Pretty much every 1 foot rock buried in hard dirt will be too much for it. It can probably reach 8 or 9 feet, with a 6 inch bucket, with no rocks in the way and a lot of time. That dirt itself looks like easy digging stuff, but it's still top soil. This is all just guessing until you start digging. I would say work on the test pits and see what you find. The geo guys are talking sense. Maybe rent a backhoe with a bucket and breaker for a day or 2 and see what you find. From there you can decide if the skid will be enough.
Yes the dirt that is there is very light and easy to dig even with bobcat. Problem is there is as much rock as dirt lol. We actually removed a large amount of rocks some had to be around 2k pounds because the loader was tipping and we bent the bucket. There is a large rock still in the center of the site that will be quite difficult to remove I think. Problem is the area outside this site is even more rocky so test pits are going to be a chore. I am going to get some pricing on renting a hoe or small excavator along with breaker on Monday and go from there. I am not afraid of it taking a lot of time and effort with bobcat and attachments but I dont want to get into a situation where I have spent a ton of money and time and still haven't made much progress.
Your progress with a skid steer backhoe attachment will be painfully slow to the point it wont be measurable progress from day to day and by the time you finish that job if it survives it will be toast they are not made to even touch that kind of material
Here are some pics of progress we made in one day with just a 66" bucket and 500lb breaker attachment. I feel like we did pretty good considering the terrain and limited equipment lol. Many of the rocks left in photo are broken and loose and just need to be moved. There is some good size rock just below the soil though so there is a lot of work left to do. I am thinking a day with an excavator and loader may get us ready for engineered fill??
I hope this isn't the case for me. I have a Case backhoe attachment for my CAT287B. I have not used it yet. It is all sand here in FL at least...
In my neck of the woods the ancestors took advantage of the rock & used it to start the foundation on a cabin or barn . The water source determined where the building site would be . All done on stone pier foundation . Some out of sand stone & some lime stone . Little or no excavation on the site of that time . If on a hill side upper side of the structure was close to ground level & lower side might be 4 foot off the ground . At least it drained well under the cabin . LOL ! Still have a standing cabin from the 1850's on the farm . She aint moved or fell over yet .
Well I'll tell a little story about a short round fellow that was one of the best friends a guy could come across - RIP. Back in the early eighties there weren't many contractors running skid steers and a mini-ex was a unicorn. Bill had a couple of rolling setups that included a heavy single axle or tandem dump with 843 Bobcat, backhoe attachment, smooth bucket, tooth bucket, forks and a breaker. This was pulled behind the dump on a 3 axle 9T trailer. The man basically pioneered the skid/CTL/mini service market in my area. Up until then the smaller grading jobs were done with a backhoe, tractor with box blade and/or manual labor. He used the **** out of his backhoe attachments hung on the fronts of those 843's, from digging footings to all sorts of tight spots that the only option was shovels and wheelbarrows. For over a year he kept two of these setups on a VA hospital job basically on call to the GC. So to wrap it up a Bobcat skid steer backhoe attachment is a worthy attachment and much cheaper than renting a mini ex over time for your type of project. Just my $.02 worth every penny you paid for it.
An HEF deep thought ….. Can you imagine what would have happened on Bonanza if Little Joe & Hoss had access to yellow iron ? There would not be a tree or rock left standing on the Ponderosa Ranch ! Ben would need to have another talk with the boys .
That is awesome! You dont know how bad I would love to build like that! I have dreamed of building a cabin in the mountains like that since i was a kid. All these damn regulations and inspectors etc drive me nuts! I still debate just building it the way i want every day. As they say it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.
This is good to know. All the doubt I have received from people I have discussed the project with just drives me even more. I always liked a good challange! I am very stubborn as well which is a double edged sword. Sometimes it allows me to accomplish great things and sometimes it costs me a lot of money lol.
Bill was a stubborn man as well and didn't give a damn what folks thought of him either, he just did what he did.
Why not ? Don't look like your in a gated community with a home owners association . Go after it !
Yep there is no HOA and it is off grid so it is definitely tempting. There is a home or large structure of some kind a few miles away that is made out of reclaimed pallets so I dont think anybody would complain about my part time use cabin lol. Heck even the retired county septic engineer told me to just build it and take lots of pictures along the way. Part of my hesitation is I have approved plans stamped by county so they are aware of my project. Not sure if they would check up on it or not?? I would hate to put a lot of blood sweat and tears into this cabin just to have the county rain on my parade once its completed.
I have a 709 backhoe....while it's a very capable attachment, what you are doing there is beyond it's limits. Ed
You might be better off just hiring someone to come in with a full size excavator and be done with it. If you want to break the rocks then just rent the breaker or maybe the contractor has a large breaker as well. Backhoe's on skid steers do have a purpose but with the rocks you have I think you'd be seriously abusing your equipment and it would be painfully slow as well.
I am considering renting an excavator and doing it myself. It shouldn't be that hard with the proper machine. Hiring someone out here is not really an option. Most contractors I have contacted are several years out on work. The only two that can do it will charge me more than it costs to build the cabin just to come excavate.
I like your enthusiasm I really do but you made the famous last words there It's not easy dealing with rock especially if you don't have any experience with it even with a bigger machine than what you would need with boulders and solid rock you can damage any equipment in no time at all There is a reason those guys want what they want to do that job take that with a grain of salt and understand you don't know about that project what you don't know. I am not saying your not capable but look at this with your eyes wide open you need no less than a 20 ton machine when and if that machine is damaged it's expensive you can spend 3 times the weekly rental in less than 2 minutes when you mess with boulders The other thing you have to do is have somewhere to but all the rock weather it's on site or off site then you need dirt to put back in that is at least 8 inch minus so you can get the compaction and you will need something with enough weight to compact 8 inch minus If you use a skid steer to grade and compact fill 4 inch minus is your friend you can get away with 6 but you wont get 95 percent or better with 8 Just my 2 cents but a lot of home owners have gone broke with the idea moving dirt is easy and there is nothing hard about it
I understand what you are saying trust me. I own a business myself and run into the same issues with my customers trying to "do things themselves". I clean up a lot of messes. I spent 2 days breaking this rock and moving it with the loader and that was enough to assure me it is no easy task. That being said I have called over 30 contractors and have gotten 2 responses and neither seemed very interested in "wasting their time" on my little 800sq ft cabin job so I am left with little choice but to try and tackle this job myself. I have owned the land for 4 years and have only managed to get a driveway done by local contractors and that is not due to a lack of trying on my part. I also spent $7k on that driveway which I could have easily cut in with this skid steer and breaker attachment so I learned a lesson there. Main reason I went ahead with it was because I figured this contractor would help all the way through process but he went mia after driveway. I am also more capable than the average guy as I come from a family of business owners and entrepreneurs. I have 3 brothers, uncles, and both parents that own or have owned businesses ranging from painting to welding to lawn and landscaping. Many of my family members have built their own homes starting with my grandparents. So while I am a little green when it comes to heavy equipment and excavation in mountain terrain I am very confident that I can figure it out. That is with the help of great folks like the members here and after I surely make some mistakes and learn from them. In the end if I can get it done without spending 100k more than planned and without any major disasters I will consider that a victory. The feeling of accomplishment when i get this project done will be very satisfying as well.
If I understand correct the plan is concrete footing & ICF block poured wall on top for the cabin . ? https://buildblock.com/how-to-build-an-icf-home/foundations/ No basement just crawl space ?
Your biggest headache to pad building on a hill is getting fill material that will compact that could very well be you single biggest expense if you have to haul it in from some where else. In my experience 100k is not that expensive when your working hill side or hill top so even if you self perform be prepared When the geo gives you the plan that will dictate what you need to do and the equipment required there is a good chance you will have to over excavate and fill back in the neighborhood of 1 to 2 feet The work is actually very simple and straightforward if you can read plans and move your materials right the first time so you don't move it twice Good luck to you
Yes in fact the engineered cabin plans called for a 12inch icf stem wall to bear on undisturbed soil. 48 inch stem wall with crawlspace. No footing needed for this size cabin. It is an A-frame cabin as well I forgot to mention that. Now that we have to remove all this rock and we are not working with undisturbed soil that may change. We will be bringing in engineered fill most likely. The engineers may recommend a footing once soil work and testing is done??
That makes sense. I will know more once the geo engineers do their work. We are running out of time this season on the high country so I may not get answers until spring. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and money over the course of this project that is for sure. I am not in a hurry so I will just take my time and learn as much as I can each step of the way. I do feel that the excavation and foundation will be my biggest headache and expense. It should be downhill from there. I have a lot more experience and resources when it comes to actually building the structure. I have experience with off grid power as well since we set my mother up with an off grid solar home in Arizona. Thanks for the advice and input it really is appreciated.
Not telling ya what to do …. Just gonna tell ya what I would do … Go back to the drawing board and have a serious " Walk & Talk " with everyone involved in the project . County Engineer Cabin builder / Engineer In my opinion this is overkill on an 800 square foot cabin project . I would set it on a pier system & forget about it . You could easily do a pier system with the bobcat & backhoe attachment . Keep it simple and the cash in pocket . I lived in Nebraska from 1971 to 73 . Have some cold winters & lots of snow . My God ! I aint had a Valentino's Pizza in 45 years . It was sure good ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentino's https://valentinos.com/ With all the insulating products available today should be no problem keeping it warm inside during a blizzard even built up on piers . You might have two months left before the snow starts to fly . Gonna heat with propane & possibly wood stove for back up ? I really like the location & view !
I completely agree! The pier system is exactly what I planned to do when I first set my eyes on this site! I would love to do that. Problem is I can't get an engineer to sign off on that. I tried a couple different architectural engineers and no luck. County requires engineered plans. If I run into to many problems I may just scrap the whole plan and go back to that idea. Like I said earlier I have been working with the county this far and I'm afraid if I go of course they will shut me down. I wish I would have just built it that way and dealt with the possible consequences. I dont think anyone would have even paid attention to what I was doing up on my mountain lol. Yes Nebraska winters are awful! Summers are miserably humid and hot as well. Weather is much milder on our land in Colorado. That is a big reason why I want to end up there when I retire. I have a valentinos right down the road from me! Lol I plan on using wood stove for main heating source as I have 5 acres full of firewood. We dont plan on being there much in the winter until we retire. I will likely have propane as a back up. Then solar power with generator backup. At first we will have cistern water setup and a vaulted privy for septic. Eventually we will dig a well and full septic system. The neighbors well is only 160 ft and has very good flow so well wont be overly expensive. Here is a better picture of the view! Some trees have been cleared and we have 180 views of snow capped mountains and no signs of civilization in site. It is impossible to really capture in photos.
Save me a slice of that Pizza ! We were in Lincoln Nebraska at the time . Lived a few steps from the original store on 33 street . Pretty cool pizza joint in the early 1970's . Ya walked in an the place was loud with music and the lights were dark . Yell out your order and wait about 15 minutes and some hot chick would bring out a warm pizza pie …… Good times
Something else to consider if going with the ICF blocks & poured concrete . Looks like with the grade in the pictures you already have a site for a cabin with a "walk out " basement . If I was gonna spend a lot of cash on the project it would have a basement under it . You just doubled the square footage . Now you have something to show for the extra cost & engineering . Random thoughts .
That's not a bad idea. I wonder what the cost difference would be? I will definitely keep that in mind.
Your almost halfway to a basement with materials & labor going with a foundation with crawlspace on a slope . 30' X 30' cabin on a 4' poured wall 8 " thick . Around 18 yards of concrete . Same cabin on an 8' tall 8" thick basement wall with 4" floor . Around 40 yards of concrete . Both jobs setting on 8" thick footing 24" wide . Once the equipment & crew is mobilized on site it don't take much longer to do the walk out style basement if the slope fits it . I aint saying you won't have to run back to town a few more trips for beer & pizza on the basement job . Take a little longer but not much . And grab a can of SKOAL while your in town . Or go back to the simple stone pier system like Little Joe & Hoss would have built it .
what are the rules for a agriculture building like a barn and skip the engineered stuff
I believe you have to own 40 acres + to qualify as agricultural in this area. I have 5 acres.
Which county are you in?
Park county
It will not dig 9’ deep. Just sold one had it for years. If you can buy one for under 4 grand go for it They will do a lot of work
I found one for $3k delivered to my door in good working order so I grabbed it. It may not dig these test pits but it will be handy to have throughout the project. I look at this attachment and the bobcat like a swiss army knife. It will do a lot of jobs. It is not the best tool for any one of them but it will do them all. I am not doing paid jobs or on a time crunch so it should work for me. I will definitely keep everyone posted on my progress and give my thoughts on the backhoe attachment.
Post a video of you wrestling a big boulder with it. Should be fun!
Haha I will try and do that.
Did you get/have the correct mounts for the 709? Be forewarned, when you use the hoe, throttle WAY down, not much over idle. Otherwise you won't be able to control it, it'll move to fast. Ed
Yes it came with the mounting brackets. Thanks for the heads up on the throttling.
A 709 backhoe digs 10 ft deep here’s my set up
What is the best equipment trailer to buy also I’m still using my 709 breaker and buckets to this day I don’t see anybody else probably because they don’t have the finesse anyways it’s better than paying 20k for an excavator I paid 3k