Hello, I recently aquired a 2003 bobcat t190 with the V2003-TE engine. Has 3700 Hrs. I have been using it but, its been giving me some issues, major issue is Hard starting, and excessive black smoke and engine lugging. When starting it puffs a bunch of white smoke while cranking, then when it fires its all black. constant haze when just running, and heavier black when under load. I took it into the local Bobcat Dealer, To have them check out the fuel system. (which they never did) After they "looked" it over and charged me 6 hours of labor at $90 and hr, they decided it needed a new engine, and it would cost $9000 to have them put a new reman engine in. I said no way and brought it home. I can not get them to give me much of what they did to it. The said it needs a new engine because it is low compression. And that is why it doesnt start wel, and why it smokes. After talking to the mechanic who was doing the work, all he said he did was test the glow plugs, then checked compression, and thats it. somehow that took 6 hrs. whatever. Compression is as follows 380-390-390-380. New spec is 412-420, according to info I found from Kubota, minimum allowable spec is 355 with no more than 10% difference in cylinders. So that seems to me like the compression is still within specs, and for 3700 hr bobcat probably ok? Its been a while since i had my diesel ASE certs, but hard start and black smoke, I would look at fuel first? I already checked air filters and turbo condition, all are ok. My questions are do you think I need a whole new engine based off those compression numbers? How should I go about testing fuel injection system? Can i pull the pump and have a local injector place bench test the injection pump? would they be able to find out what they need to from a bench test. Anything else I can do to get this machine up and running properly again? Thanks.
In most cases, with a poor starting and poor running engine, one of the first things I do is pull the injectors and have them tested at an injection shop. It's easy for them to do, and if they're bad it's usually rather obvious to them, and having them tested even to find they're ok doesn't cost you much coin. Likewise, if they find they're bad, you know to repair/replace them. Many times just going through the injectors helps a sick engine. If the injectors were in poor shape, and it's still not running right, injection pump could be in poor shape as well. It's not unusual for those two failures to go hand in hand, this low sulphur fuel we use nowdays is tough on injection systems. It's not a hard job to remove the injection pump on a Kubota engine.
Which is what I told them to check first, but for some reason they went another route and charged a fortune for a fricken compression test which still pisses me off. I'll pull the injectors and the pump and take them in to get tested. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy thinking that 380-390 was still fine compression and not causing the smoke issues.
380 should be plenty to start a diesel. The test for compression can change a lot due to cranking speed also. I would be looking at fuel delivery and timing.
The injection pump may be easy (in willie's opinion) but it's still a lot more to mess up than just the injectors.
Well, I didn't really say it was easy, just said it wasn't that hard of a job because, unlike most injection pumps, on a Kubota like that one you don't have to mess with timing, you simply pull the pump rack out of the governor housing, no gears to pull or timing marks to line up.
I'm not arguing, just repeating to check the injectors first. That's what I'd do anyway, the injectors have a harder life than the pump, IMHO.
Copy dat! :drinkup
Thanks all for confirming what I thought.. I dropped the 4 injectors and the injection pump off at the testing place today. Will update with what they find.
Injectors tested good. injection pump needs seals rebuilt. we will see if it helps with the hard start or excessive black smoke. will keep things updated. would like to hopefully prove the dealer wrong that it doesnt need a new engine. we shall see
Can you check the timing?
Not sure how, I'm gonna have to look that up once I get everything back and reinstalled.
It's a flow timing process on a Kubota. It requires a high pressure lift pump, something 20 to 40 psi, or take apart the #1 injection delivery valve and remove the check valve plate, then re-install the delivery valve and use the primer bulb as a lift pump. Disconnect the injection line from #1 delivery valve. Set fuel shut off to run position on engines that have external linkage fuel shutoff. On engines that have internal linkage shutoff, remove the shut down solenoid. Activate your lift pump (or primer bulb), bar engine over CW while watching for timing mark on flywheel view through inspection hole above flywheel sensor. When fuel begins to flow from #1 injection delivery valve you should be on your timing mark. It depends on the year model engine as to what the mark is. Your injection shop should be able to give you more info on the process considering you just spent some money with them to check and work on your components.
Thanks, I'll see if I can figure that out meanwhile, everything is back together. Might have started a little better but still has black haze, and still has the power issues at times. Injectors were ok, pump was rebuilt. Is timing next to check? Could compression be causing black smoke? 390 instead of new 412?
Could be an issue with the turbo or air filter, especially if it is losing power. Injection timing can't just change for no reason. If no one monkeyed with it, chances are that is not the issue. If you have verified compression and fuel injection, to me that means it could be a lack of air. Might also be worth taking the valve cover off and checking/setting the valves. I don't know how Bobcat gets away with the awful service at their dealerships. The one here in Peoria is terrible. All they can do is hook up a computer or swap out an engine.
With diesel engines, typically, low compression causes white smoke, not dark/black smoke. The diesel principle works by compressing air rapidly. When you compress air rapidly it heats the air. The idea is to heat the air (via compression) to a temperature that will ignite fuel oil, in this case diesel fuel. Low compression typically causes a poor burn of fuel, air wasn't heated enough to efficiently ignite the fuel oil resulting in white smoke. Really really poor compression, as in a worn slap out engine, will make it really really hard to start the engine, even using starting fluid. Black smoke is typically air/fuel ration mixture not optimum. Could be too much fuel, but going through the injection system should resolve that, other would be not enough air in the combustion chamber. Like Wes J stated, check your air intake system thoroughly, but the turbo would have limited effect on start up since an engine has to be revving at least 1,600 to 1,800 rpm for a turbo to spin fast enough to effect engine performance, they really don't do much to an engine at start up. And I don't think a 2003 has it, but I figure I'd ask, does this Kubota have an EGR system?
Yes I figured slightly low compression would not be causing these issues. Black smoke is almost always a fuel or air related issues based on other engines I've worked on. Ok so turbo still checks out good. Blades spin no play in the shaft, running the turbo produces good flow rev the engine up and get a lot more. While messing around today I didn't have the clamp on the boost hose going from turbo to intake, after lugging down the engine, getting the overly black smoke. The turbo hose popped off. So there seems to be plenty of boost, this was all done with intake system before the turbo disconnected as to make sure there was no issues there. Still got the heavy black smoke when load is applied. And haze when just running no load. No egr on this engine. I did remove the valve cover and measured the loose rockers. They were around .025 clearance. Online spec states should be .007-.008, I will adjust those. The head on this Machine was changed at some point. It is a different color than the rest of the engine. I feel the engine starts slightly better than before. But still not how it should, or how my other bobcats have started.
Well, to repeat what mobiltech said in post #4, you need to verify you have good fuel supply, and since you really don't know the history of the machine it wouldn't be a bad idea to verify ignition timing is correct, that would eliminate two more possibilities. Take care of the 3 simple things first with a diesel, that is, it takes 3 simple things to make a diesel run; fuel, oxygen, and compression, a lack of any of these three things will cause problems.
Ok. Moving forward, Valves were a bit out of adjustment, adjusted to spec, disconnected the exhaust in case muffler was plugged. Tried to start. Puffed white and hard start. Decided to check injection timing. Injection timing testing. From what I found in online manuals, I disconnected #1 injector line coming off the pump. Turned fuel to full throttle, made the stop lever to run position. I hand turned the engine counter clockwise viewed from flywheel side. Clockwise on crank pulley side. until I saw fuel in the injector cup flow up and over the top. I matched this with the tdc mark on the flywheel. Mine only has one mark not multiple like the manual stated. Timing is supposed to be 17-19* BTDC. So if I understand that right, the fuel cup should flow over before I spin the engine around to the tdc mark on the flywheel. My engine, the tdc mark passes rotation. Then the fuel cup fills. Possibly 20* ATDC? Turns a bit after before the cup fills. I've gone back and forth a few times to test. Did I do the test right? If so seems timing is way off. The pump had been out before. How to you set timing with shims? And which ones would I need?
One more thought. Are the valves on number 1 cylinder both loose when fuel starts to flow out number 1 or are the valves on rock over. I have seen pumps put on 180 degrees out and still run. Very poorly
I will recheck but pretty sure they were. Because I was doing valve adjustment at the same time. Would like to make sure it's not off.
Yes valves were in the right spot when the injection pump pumps. Attached is a video showing how I was doing the test? Let me know if it's actually way outta time or I'm screwing up the test!! https://vimeo.com/153158476
I'm not a Kubota expert, but on most engines, the injection pump timing is set by lining up timing marks on the gears inside the front cover. Fine tuning of the timing is done by slightly rotating the injection pump on its mounting studs until the factory marks are aligned. If the are not marks, some engines require a special alignment tool and/or removal of an inspection cover on the pump to see the internal marks. I don't know what your test shows. If the injection pump was removed without removing the drive gear, you should be fine, but many engines require you to remove the front cover and drive gear to remove the pump. The the gear has to be timed using the factory marks when reassembled.
This pump slides down into the housing, no rotating or anything to adjust timing other than shims. Looks like a small cam shaft that runs the injection pump timing.
OK, then the internal timing should be fine. I think you did the check right. Interested to see how this plays out.
The injection pump on this Kubota has its own cam inside the governor housing, that cam operates the 4 injection delivery valves. If the governor housing cam is timed properly upon engine assembly via the gears in the timing gear housing then there's no issue removing the injection pump housing with the delivery valves for service because that has no effect on the timing of the cam. Likewise, if the cam is timed properly, the shims either slightly raise or slightly lower (change distance) of just when the cam in the governor housing contacts the rollers on the bottom of the delivery valves thereby changing the time of injection. Less shims, deliver valve distance in relation to cam is shorter, timing will be advanced. Add shims, distance is longer, take a few more degrees of cam turning to operate delivery valve, timing retarded. And this is only to change injection timing a few degrees, it's not meant for giant leaps, the cam has to be timed with the crankshaft correctly. What serial number is your machine?
Yes to me seemed off more than shims will fix, thats why i posted the video asking if i was testing correctly. Serial number of my machine is 51911049
40 degrees could be 2 teeth off, anybody know how many teeth are on that cam gear? 18 or so? Wait, 1/2 of engine rpm means 1 tooth off? In any case, if the head was off, then somebody could have done more fixin on the engine and anything is possible?
Exactly, not knowing the history of the machine. :drinkup
Are you sure about that s/n Black71, should be 9 numbers.
Oops yes number is 519311049 I'll start digging into the front cover to make sure the gear teeth are lined up correctly.
So working on the Machine today, all the bolts to the front cover look painted still, Does not look like anybody was in there. Without removing the front cover is there a way to adjust the timing cam? Does it look like I did the timing test correctly? If so timing would need to be very advanced correct? If it's firing after tdc, and I need it to fire before tdc? There is a cover on the front and rear of the timing cam and it looks like it was removed possibly before, paint is off the bolt heads. There are two c clips on each end holding the cam in place. If I have to pull the whole front cover off I will but only if we are pretty sure it's out of adjustment. Just wanting to make sure I did that test correctly
Send your email addy in a Private Message, I may have a manual that will work with your machine and you might be able to glean some info from it.
http://www.kubotaman.co.uk/spill-timing-1 Here's an explanation that seems easiest to understand to me. Ignore everything about removing the delivery valve if you're using a pressure pump to overcome the delivery valve. Note that when you back the engine up, go 1/4 turn to get the slack out when you come back, and the timing is when the flow stops. I couldn't tell how it went in the video, and wouldn't have known anyway. Edit: also "full throttle" position for timing
Following those instructions, I didn't use a high pressure pump so I did take the valve out, doing as they explained the flow stopped just after the tdc mark. I can still see it in the view hole just went slightly past it. So is that saying timing is a few degrees after tdc?
I don't know if that mark is TDC or whatever Before TDC the timing is supposed to be? If it went past the mark then that is late.
I sent you an email message. The attachment was a pretty big file, had to load it on Google Drive, let me know if you don't get the file.
Ok after getting the manual and doing the test how they state gave the same results and the drip test earlier linked. The mark on my flywheel is apparently the timing mark, 18*. So it is not tdc mark, but it is still firing a few degrees later than it should. Let's say it's firing 2-3* late, could that be causing the issues? Hard start and excessive smoke under load. So I need to advance the timing correct? Needs to fire sooner cause it's firing too late right now. So that means remove a shim?? The injection pump looked changed before, so it could have been changed and never re timed? I'll get this set and hopefully it starts and runs better, but we shall see if there is other issues
Unless you drive another identical machine, I don't think you'd notice 2-3 degrees late timing, I sure wouldn't. Yes, removing a shim advances the timing. It sounds like you have compression, checked the turbo, air filter, valves, pump, and injectors. The only other things I can think of is a combination of problems, like a crimped exhaust pipe, hydraulic load, weak starter/battery/cables. Have you used this enough to know if you're using any oil? Oil level correct? Does the dipstick look original? Have you checked the hydraulic filter? Just throwin stuff out to see what sticks...
Well of course no changes. Had a .25 and .30mm shim removed the .30 timing is dead on now. No change still takes forever to start, while blowing white smoke. Once starts turns to black and will lug down to the point of stalling when a load is put on. Doesn't seem to be using much oil. I have muffler disconnected to make sure it wasn't plugged. I changed hydraulic filter as well. Hydraulics work strong when you don't let the engine lug. I'm out of ideas. I've tested and checked everything fuel and air related.
Does that engine have the external fuel shutdown solenoid with a short linkage? If yes, are you sure the solenoid is pulling the run/stop lever fully into the Run position? Have you verified the lift pump is delivering good fuel supply to the injection pump?
Have we talked about glow plugs? but that would only matter to the starting cold. Have you checked TDC using the piston? I don't know if it's possible, if the crank holes would allow the flywheel to be installed wrong, that would do it. How does the engine sound running? smoother than you'd expect? more diesel knock than you'd expect? You could turn the crank 18* past the mark and push the valves down by hand to determine if it's at TDC. What kind of electronics are on this engine? I'm only familiar with the old fashioned Kubotas, not turbo's or anything that new.
I had 1 in the shop the other day.. it would start GREAT, then the RPM's would drop, just short of full load.. it ran an, insulation blower.. The rubber fuel lines going to/from the fuel tank were bad.. the lift pump was bad.. and culprit ended-up being... the SHUT-OFF SOLENOID.. It received 12v at start-up.. THEN dropped off to 5v while running.. allowing the solenoid to still stay engaged but let go of the rod just far enough to interfere w/ the rack on the pump, not allowing it to go to full fuel.. AND it was a 2 WIRE SET-UP.!!! not 3... I found it by, probing the wires w/a volt meter while the engine was starting, then while it was running.. I VERIFIED IT by removing the s/o solenoid entirely.. engine ran great.. It ended up being a bad ground and a faulty hot lead... Not saying your s/o solenoid is the problem.. just saying they can reek havoc on diagnosing a problem.. remove it..
hey guys, I am new here... i see that the pump guy is from South Carolina also and was wondering if i could get your email as i am having trouble with a stanadyne injector pump on a case 580c..
THE PUMP GUY IS A MYTH.. he doesn't exist.. ask anyone.. You cant click on his name to get his email address cuz your new.. BUT>> if you type in>> thepumpguyscataol,com you might just find him.. LOL
Just read through the whole thing, very interesting. I'm sure you've done it but it hasn't been said here.....you've changed the fuel filter right?? and verified fuel flow from the tank to the pump, how about the quality of the fuel? If so I'd be pullin' the front cover to verify all the timing marks.
Fuel filter is new, fuel is good straight from my tank, delivered from the supplier, run it in everything no other issues. Glow plugs all test good, they get good power at key on for 20 seconds as the dash auto counts down. fuel pump flows well. I can toss something else on there and double check no change. i have started and ran it a few times with the fuel solenoid disconnected and held at full start. I will try to get a video of it trying to start, its 50* out today so it should start pretty decent, but then I will show how it smokes on bogs down as well. maybe that will help with the issues at hand. I'm about to take the dumb dealers advice and buy a used engine and toss it in there. Dont have a lot of work for it right now in the winter, but spring is gonna come soon with as mild as the winter has been.
I too am having the same issues as you Black71gp. I have a 2001 T190 with the 2003 Kubota in it and has 1400 hours. This fall it overheated, was 100 that day, when doing work for a farmer in one of his fields. I loaded it took it home and was busy and it wasn't snowing so I didn't need to use it. The first snow back in November here in ND I fired it up (started fine and ran fine) and removed the snow about 20 minutes time of running. It was getting hot again as I hadnt checked it out from this fall. I parked it and started to go through started to look over the radiator where I found a mouse had completely plugged the radiator but could not see it from just a glance at it until I dug in deeper. I cleaned the radiator and decided to fire it back up and see how it ran if it would cool or not. I moved about 10 feet got out and could smell that sweet smell. I opened the back to see fluid spraying from the head. I replaced the head it came with new valves installed, changed oil and fuel filter. It fired right up but would lug down and chug black smoke just while trying to move forward or backward at full speed. I moved snow again and let it run to see if it would come out of it, but it never did. I have about a 25 degree hill coming out of my driveway to get to the main road. The bobcat will start and idle to 2850 rpm at full throttle. Once I got to move forward or backward it will lug down and puff black smoke at about 2/3 of the levers in the forward position. Let off and it go immediately back to 2800+. Going up the hill holding back not to stall the machine at it will lug down to about 1600-1800 in about 25 yards distance up the hill almost stalling out. Sitting in place at full throttle moving the bucket up and down will bump idle down to about 2600 which doesnt seem huge but not sure if it was doing that before, never had to pay attention to it as it was running fine. All of this mentioned I put it back in the shop and went through the simple things first. -Checked valve adjustment was good -New drive belt -New fuel filter again -Drained fuel tank and added new fuel -Drained hydraulic system added new fluid -New case drain filters -New hydraulic filters -New oil filter -New air filters -Checked turbo seemed to be fine -Tested and cleaned injectors were good (done this when head was off) -New fuel lines -New primer bulb -New pickup fuel line and screen I need to check compression, timing and injector pump this weekend hopefully. I like you am running out of areas to look. I will keep you posted on anything new I find and will be following this forum.
I'm running out of ideas myself with all the stuff you've checked. I find it hard to believe the engine is worn out with the compression you reported in post #1, especially given the specs for that engine has a minimum allowable compression of 355 psi. Just for the hell of it, have you checked that the air purge valve on the injection pump is in the closed position? Or possible the purge valve is faulty not allowing proper pressure inside the injection pump.
It's not the valve cam timing is it? I don't know about these motors at all, just wondering if that could get off changing the head.
Pull the front cover and see. It's not that bad of a job.
Thanks. Green head. Sounds like the same issues. The hill bogging down for sure. Can push the levers all the way forward without it stalling have to carefully push it to keep engine rpm up. Perhaps something with changing the head. I don't know when my head was changed I just can tell it was due to the paint color. Yes bleed screw is closed. Not sure if faulty or not. Agree that min spec compression is 355 so with 3700 hours 380-390 should be just fine. The head looked like a simple job, no messing with any timing or anything like that. Just a few push rods and head bolts. Something is causing a fuel issue, which seems to be part of the start issue as well. I was really hoping the injection timing was way off but we have corrected and moved on from that.
Does any one know if the intake and exhaust push rods are the same length, maybe some got mixed up in the head swap?
Unless I'm thinking all wrong, it should not matter. As long as the valves are set correctly, the push rods can be as long or short as they want. Unless they actually hit something, it should have no effect. Are you sure it has the right head on it?
Push rods are same length for both intake and exhaust. Compression could maybe be related to head gasket thickness. Not sure what OEM gasket thickness and if an aftermarket gasket if thicker or thinner. I know some do have different thickness from different makers. What the difference in compression would be I am not sure but one would think there maybe a slight difference. Today when I started mine up I noticed that the muffler was leaking around the base. Why did it crack there is a good question, but I ordered a new one so I will know more once that is installed. Will keep posted.
Wait, what, am I reading this right? I thought we have gone through and verified everything about the fuel delivery?
yes sorry verified fuel delivery is all good, just saying still black smoke, which is too much fuel, for some reason or another.
Rather than read 4pgs over again.. I'll ask the question.. Does it rev to full RPMS?? and have good throttle response up and down..?? IF not.. I have the answer..
Seems to have good throttle response. And full rpm seems to be occurring, haven't hooked a tack up. What are you thinking?
I had 1 in the shop the other day and it would start great.. just NO throttle response above idle and lots of smoke.. I found the main governor spring had broken and the only thing controlling the pump rack was the "start spring".. It would start good but the engine flyweights would stretch the start spring.. and there was nothing to fight the flyweight force.. so no RPM's.. I found it by removing the side plate/inspection plate under the injection pump.. and moving/holding the pump rack by hand..
Got muffler in and installed still didn't change a thing. Checked timing and as you Black71gp, the 18* mark comes into the window on the bottom and the fuel does not start to flow until the mark in just about to leave the window. I would say maybe 3 to 6 degrees after the mark on the flywheel passes the mark on the window opening. Not sure if it needs to be advanced or not but I never touched this when the head was off. I checked the fuel shut off solenoid and that tested good. I checked track tension and that was not out of adjustment. I have not been able to find a compression tester, but I don't know if that is the issue. Start up is all good, will take right off and even in cold weather here in ND 5 degrees yesterday without being plugged in took 2 cycles on the glow plugs and started up. I am going to call our diesel shop here and see if they can test the injection pump it could be over fueling. I am about out of ideas and a few more steps away from taking it to bobcat shop.
The more I think about it, it has something to do with the head being installed. Black71gp and Tillys26 (whom is in this thread HeavyEquipmentForums ), like mine have all had the head replaced. I took off the head and installed a new one and it ran fine before the head cracked. Now just changing the head shouldn't have caused a blockage in the fuel line or a clogged intake, however it is possible, but do not think it would be have been created by changing the head. I was going to ask if there is a way to check the turbo besides pulling the intake tube to check the impeller and its play on the shaft within the housing, but why would the turbo all of a sudden fail or start to fail when it worked fine prior to the head removal. 3 machines same issues and relatively the same part was changed out. Unless there was something missed during installation or an aftermarket part was not to spec?
Just a thought....If this has been changed in the past, can the timing get screwed up even though the front timing marks are lined up? In other words, is there a positive way to ensure alignment without removing the front cover? And if this was changed, maybe the governor system wasn't reassembled correctly??? Just shootin' from the hip here....
Still trying to figure out what's up. Have had a few other projects going that are taking first priority. Been just reading an research I'll let ya know what else is found out. I'm about to pull the head to check the cylinder walls out and valves make sure nothing is cracked or messed up
Black71gp do you happen to know where you got the cylinder head that was installed on this machine? Was it an actual Kubota cylinder head or an aftermarket? The one I installed was from Kumar Bros USA wonder if the aftermarket head has something to do with the tolerances not being to spec or some other issue with the machining of the head.
I also have a t190 with kubota v2003-t-e engine with same exact problem.I bought it used knowing it started hard and blew heavy black smoke under load, got it home found a cracked exhaust manifold, totally clogged air filter and a really bad turbo. I replaced all with new kubota parts about $1200. I fired it up,still started hard and smoked black at full throttle while traveling worse in reverse.engine just plain runs out of power.I used it all day around the farm thinking it would clean out it never did. I pulled injectors today and noticed the head has been replaced also. I'm with you about something wrong with cylinder head???
Today I was finally able to get in touch with the trouble shooting guy at Kumar Bros. Kinda what I figured he would say was what he did. He hasn't seen this issue at all so doesn't believe it is a head issue. He figured it was a bad piston or ring. Doesn't make much sense to me but that was his take on it. He said that the head they machine is universal fit for V1903 V2003 and V2203. Does anyone know if this is correct that the heads on this engines are all interchangable? He was saying the only difference was that the Tier I Tier II and Tier III just have different coolant passage paths but the rest of the head is the same. So he is saying that because it is only a difference with the coolant passage ways it would not affect the performance of the machine. I thought the Tier I Tier II and Tier III versions of these engines had to do with the updates in emissons and designs of the engines? Am I wrong or can someone explain what the Tier I II and III stand for or what the differenece is. I called Bobcat today and they want $1,800+ for just the head. SO with that said not excited about changing that head again. Any help on these questions would be helpful.
I dropped my injectors off at the local diesel shop today,the owner with 30+ years said it's simple if you have 350+psi in each cylinder your top and bottom end are good forget about head. It may start hard with worn injectors but kubota injectors won't over fuel (black smoke)You should start with air in or air out. 1.Air filters 2.turbo 3.wrong gaskets 4.clogged exhaust 5.pump timing. Or my fear excessive load on engine / hydraulic pump problem.
I did not do the work, wS done before I got the machine and I know it was changed because it is a light blue paint color rather than the dark grey rest of the engine is. It possibly might be messed up again
I talked with a friend that works at a local Case IH dealership here in ND and he thinks it is an air issue. He does not think that a universal head would work on these Kubota engines. Thinking about it maybe the air intake coming off the turbo and into the intake manifold and then into the head is differenet sizes by a touch from OEM. If the air passages in the head were slightly different from the OEM Kubota head that would make sense as it would be pinching the amount of air getting into the cylinders down. Anyone have any thoughts.
Greenhead21 Just a thought ( sorry if its all ready been discussed) have you got a hydraulic service in operation ie a sticky pedal or lever not a lot but just enough to load the hydraulic system a bit which will make it difficult starting may be worth throwing a gauge on main relief its a cheap test had a few mini diggers with breaker pedals just sticking as the rocker pedal on the floor was rusty and had been pressed which caused difficult starting and lots of smoke on start up dealer said it was a new engine required in this one.
Black71gp has a hard starting issue with his machine I believe. jcb jeff this information maybe helpful for him and would make sense if that was a problem. Blaster64 any other update? I have been busy have not had a chance to dig into my machine lately.
Ok all 4 injectors needed new nozzles, $325.00 with new seals. I installed them last Friday hoping this would solve my problems it didn't. I will say it starts better but still blows heavy black smoke while moving full speed. My next move is to install a boost gauge To make sure turbo is making enough boost. Does anybody know much boost it should make?
I don't know what year model engines we're discussing here, but do they have an EGR system?
No EGR on mine, early 2000's. mine starts a little better after the timing and injection pump build. not like my old 753 used to, but still starts on first crank cycle instead of two or three. Still no idea. Having another guy come next week to look at it. He was thinking possibly it over heated, cracked the head but maybe also has a cracked ring, or secondary ring? not sure why compression would be in the 390 range if that was the case. Going to re-check the dealers numbers and see if they were correct or not. I kept thinking hydraulic issue was well? but the constant haze of smoke while running tosses me off that. I should disconnect the hydraulics belt and see how it starts and revs up. Been looking for another engine, or possible trade it in for something else. if it was an easy fix that would be great, but this is starting to become a real pain.
so mine for sure starts a lot better than it ever did, so maybe that was part of injection pump leaking and or timing. So that issue seems to be better. but the same smoke always, and bad up a hill with levers fully forward like others. sucks this seems to be such an impossible fix. I started looking around for a used engine, might just swap it out and see what happens. wondering if during the overheat process a ring is cracked or broke? and only shows up under major load? just guessing here.
Black71gp Daft thought as not 100 % with the engine in the T190 do they have different thickness head gaskets and the wrong thickness has been put on at sometime. Had this with a 2002 Toyota Hilux pick up always lacking full power and a little Smokey at times just a thought to throw in your mix.
Good point jcb jeff, I myself don't know if different thickness head gaskets are out there, but it would make a difference believe it or not. I once worked on a Detroit 4-53 that had a slight miss on #4 cylinder, rev it up and the miss went away, only happened at idle. Pulled the head and found #4 was coming up short by less than 1/8 of an inch, maybe 3/32", from a bent connecting rod. That slight distance affected compression and gave #4 a miss, a head gasket that's too thick would affect all cylinders.
as long as we're swappin storys.. LOL I HAD 1 THAT HAD A HORENDUS SKIP.. AFTER.. 1 of our techs had pulled the injectors and had them tested..I was about to pull the head when I thought.. I wonder.?? I pulled the suspected cylinder and found he had put 2 gaskets in the hole.. FORGOT TO REMOVE THE OLD 1.. Just sayin'>> a few thousands can make a WORLD of difference.. in timing..
Thinking along the idea about the head gasket thickness also Willie 59 comment would it be possible to pop out the injectors and get a tig welding rod down the injector hole so as you can measure the that all pistons are at the same height i now its a crude way of checking piston deck height or bumping clearance but my have a bent rod just more to throw in the mix and a cheap easy check as long as long as its direct injection.
This is what I finally came up with for my machine. Took it to Bobcat and never took the injection pump off. They checked compression came back at 350 across the board, but starts good. Thinking the thickness of the new gasket could be the explanation behind it being a touch low but not out of spec. They check the aux controls to make sure one wasn't getting stuck on or slightly on drawing power from the engine, that checked fine. They check the brakes to see if they were catching or sticking, that checked fine. They checked the turbo, the checked fine. Checked valve clearance which was off some compared to the procedure they use. They explained that Kubota valve adjustment isn't a standard procedure from normal adjustment. Once valves were adjusted it still didn't run right. They pulled injectors and had them tested again they tested fine. They cracked the flange nut for the injection pump and found that the number 2 and 3 injectors were not getting the right about of fuel. the fuel was dripping out of the number 2 and trickling out of the number 3. 1 and 4 were spraying a good strong stream. Pulled the pump and replaced with one off another machine and it ran like it should. There is also a fuel supply screw that can be adjusted on the side of the injection pump. When you are looking at the injection pump from the back of the machine it would be on the left hand side of the pump. Low idle was low at 940 should be around 1100 to 1200 so they will adjust that up and the high idle was 2800 should be 2850 to 3000 so they will adjust that up. Now waiting on new pump to get here next week and should have it back by end of week about $2000 lighter. I asked about the universal head that I thought was maybe causing the issues. They said that tier 1 heads and pumps are no longer available. The new pump will be a tier 2 pump, but that tier 1,2,3 and heads are universal for certain engines example the v2003 and v2203. The only issue is when one would get into the tier 4 where the head has changed so they were not worried with the head that was installed. The had a concern with the gasket thickness, but noted that the compression would be the only real issue they would be worried about with it. They said sometimes they will see in the injection pump the plunger or the spring break. We do not have a place in ND that can rebuild these pumps so I was stuck with a new one at $923. Either way they seem to have got the machine back to working or at least the issue narrowed down for now. Will keep you posted if anything else comes up that could help.
Let us know how that goes. I already had my injection pump totally rebuilt by a local place. So who knows if something was missed or not. I'm about to sell off my machine. It needs some other work but not putting any money into it unless this can be figured out. It starts better other than today the glow plugs must have died cause the light just flashes and it doesn't try and activate them at all. So need to figure that out as well.
I have the same issue described in this post. I just did a Kumar Brothers USA head and now i am experiencing the haze of black smoke at idle and the heavy black smoke when operating the machine with both sticks forward, with a noticable loss of power. I have already gone through the injection pump. Any updates on what you guys ended up doing to solve the problem?
I also just rebuilt my motor and installed a Kumar head. Now experiencing the exact problems. Hard starting with lots of white smoke and then low power with black smoke while working. Anyone solve there problem? I have checked everything and have had no luck. My compression is all around 425psi
One thing I did find. Is my turbo only puts out 7psi at high idle and max load. I plugged my wastegate and now getting 10-12psi underload. Black smoke is gone and runs like it use to with good power. Does anyone know spec on this motors for boost pressure? I cannot find anything.
Just to update this blog if anyone is reading and has recently bought a aftermarket cylinder head from Kumar bro’s. I have figured out the problem. After installing the head I had hard starting and low power. I removed the head and had a closer look. I found valves are counter sunk roughly .025 into the head in the kumar head. Where the stock head is flat. The counter sunk valves lowers the compression of the engine creating more CC’s in the chamber. The mouth from the prechamber is also cut wrong and does help atomize and burn the fuel completely. This causes the hard starting and low power. DO NOT BUY A KUMAR BROS PRODUCT!
After reading thru this post I agree get a Kubota head valve recess is critical and must be with in specs