My T200 with 2096 hrs has a Heavy Smoking Problem under load. I been told it was the turbo. No oil deposit anywhere beneath the engine or around the heads. I started taken this thing apart to inspect the turbo for loose turbo shaft and I not sure if I'm going tearing it down right. I got the air cleaner and the muffler off, and got some the air clearer hose off to the turbo. DO I HAVE TO PULL THE INTAKE TO GET TO THE TURBO. or is their a trick to getting to the turbo withpot busting all of my knuckles. Any help would sho be appreicated. Whatelse do I need to look for if it aint the Turbo. The impeller on the air cleaner side looks good ( its not loose ) but their is oill in the air cleaner line, is that a good sign I got a bad turbo. Help me if you can, Thanks Bubba
Sounds like a turbo to me... does the power drop down to nothing with a load on it? If it doesnt loose too much power than maybe you got a bad head gasket? I dont know about the tricks of removing the turbo if need be, but im sure someone on here will. Good Luck
did you check the obvious things first?air filter or restricted air cleaner intake?fuel pump problem?can be lots of variables
Before I condemned the turbo and removed it, I would like to know a little more about it if it were my machine. If this is something that suddenly started happening, I would take note if it's consuming more oil than usual, then possibly suspect turbo. I think the T200 had the Deutz engine in it, can remember for sure, but it might have the crankcase ventilation connected to the intake side of turbo, could explain some oil residue in the piping. Smoke could be caused by other things as well, such as injection pumps or injectors.
Yes Sir, I let it sit since it put me down on Tuesday and I crank it today and was gonna put it in my shop and it cranked OK I move some stuff with the forks in front of my shop and then I went out swap the forks for a tooth bucket and went in to move some dirt and I didn't get a half bucket of dirt and it started smoking like a steam engine and died. I tried to restart it but it just smoke like it was on fire and I waited about an hour and it restrarted and i didn't even make it to the shop before it quit again. I let it sit for a while and went back it started and and I just did get it in the shop. Thanks for your reply and your help.
Air filters are normal, I blew both out just before it put me down. It don't seem like a fuel problem because I let it sit since Tueday and when I started it today to put it in the my shop it cranked and started with little hesitation. I did hear some tapping noise when it shut down today. Oil is going somewhere and the only place I can see it out the exhaust pipe in the form of smoke. It looks like the whole place is on fire when it shuts down and when I try to restart it. Thanks for the reply and help.
Yes Sir, It my machine and it is using more oil than normal. It got the Duetz BF4m1011F. It noticed a tube coming off the intake I don't know where it goes. I not sure I know how a turbo is built, but I know it got to be lubed somehow and thats probably where all the oil is going. Thanks for the reply and your help.
All turbochargers are lubed by an oil pressure line connected to the top of the center section of the turbo, between the exhaust and intake sections. Then there is an oil drain pipe that connects to the bottom of that center section to drain the lubricating oil back to crankcase sump.
A little bit of oil in the intake piping is normal due to blowby. You could have a blown head gasket, and with that engine being oil cooled, instant smoke machine.
If its an oil cooled motor and you have a blown head gasket, be careful, the motor can run off the motor oil. This is most common in detroits, but other engines have done it. Rpm's will climb and you can't shut it off, finally something lets go...
Hello To All That Responded: Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question on the T200. I had the turbo checked today ( Tuesday ) and it is shot. The mechanic said that it had gotten dirt into which cause the bearing to go out. He also said that i got other problems. He said that due to the impeller on the intake side being badly worn that I had dirt also to get to my rings and pistons. I hope he wasn't trying to sell me a engine overhaul job. This engine ran to good prior to the Turbo problem. Bobcat wants $2482 for a Turbo, Duetz wants $1983 and the Diesel shops wants $875 for a rebuilt Turbo and also needs to go through the Engine. I can buy a new Turbo off ebay for $650.00 and this guy said he has sold 200 this year. I don't know where he gets them but I going with the $650.00. I don't think that my engine is damaged that badly. I gonna put the Turbo on and drain the oil about 3-4 times and put some type of additive in it and hope it cleans it out. WHAT DO YA'LL THINK, DO YOU THINK IT WORTH A TRY OR SHOULD I JUST BITE BULLET AND GO WITH AN OVERHAUL JOB. THANKS FOR ANY GOOD ADVICE ON WHAT i SHOULD DO.
I have been following this thread with interest, since I have a T200, too. Did he tell you how "dirt" got into the turbo? The air filtration is pretty sophisticated, so I wonder about that. From my reading, it seems like most turbos die because they run very hot, and when they are shut down hot, the oil "cokes" up and becomes gritty. This grit ruins the bearings. I give my T200 five minutes of "foreplay" and five minutes of "cuddling" at idle so I am not overtaxing the hydraulics at start-up, and I allow the turbo to equilibrate after hard use. In another thread, they said turbos run so hot on some machines that you can actually see the vanes of the turbo through the outside of the housing- the housing has become translucent. If the oil cokes up and the oil filter doesn't catch it, I suppose this could affect the bearings in the bottom end, but I don't see this as affecting the rings or cylinders. On the issue of the rebuild, why can't he do a compression test? If your rings are shot, or you cylinders scored, it seems to me that he should be able to give you a pretty good idea. When I bought mine, I had a shop in which I have complete confidence go over mine completely, and do a compression test as a quick judge of the engine's health. If he gets low readings, or a lot of variability between the cylinders, that might influence your decision about a rebuild. I wouldn't do a rebuild just because he thinks you might have a problem. On the turbo issue, I've seen the same eBay ads. I don't know anything about them, but the ads have been there for a while. I would certainly be more inclined to give $650 a try before I spent $2500.
I don't claim to be a turbo expert, but that is about as looney as anything I could thing of. The turbo shaft bearings are in the center section of the turbo, they are lubricated by pressurized oil coming into the top of the center section and there is a shaft seal the keeps oil in center section and not enter the impeller section. Even if dirt (from the impeller side) were to foul up and destroy the seal, the dirt wouldn't necessarily kill the bearing, instead, the first thing you would see would be a bunch of smoke because oil would enter the intake manifold via failed seal in impeller section. And that may very well be what's happened to your machine, but in no way does that mean dirt has killed your turbo bearings. That's another looney statement. If your air cleaner/filter were awry and allowed dirt or abrasive material into intake system, that material would, over time, destroy the turbo impeller. But the fact that the impeller would now be worn would have absolutely nothing to do with dirt/grit wearing piston rings. On the contrary, the fact that dirt/grit would be present in the intake system would be what caused wear to rings and piston wall, nothing to do with impeller wear. Having said all this, you may actually have some internal engine problems, but the "reason it's like this" as reported to you from the wrench is from Mars...not Earth. I think I would put a turbo on it, make sure your oil pressure gauge works and cooling system is working proper, and see how it does. If it starts good, runs good, doesn't smoke excessively, has good oil pressure, coolant temp is proper, dig baby dig.
I want to Thank all of You Fellows for your input. I certainly do appreicate it. I also want to Thank Heavy Equipment Forum for allowing a web site that allows Heavy Equipment Owners, Operators and people interested in the business a place that we can share opinions and be of so much help to people like me that loves heavy equipment but hates to see it tore up and will do just about anything to keep running like its intended. LWG I appreciate you taking the interest and time to share your views, everything you said makes a lot sense and I will take the advice you have given. Willie I also appreicate you taking the time to respond to my post and I plan on doing just what you said. One thing LWG said was an important lesson regarding the machine to settle down before shutting it down, I have failed to do that. When I look back from what the turbo tech said about the wear on the fins of the intake side of the impeller I don't think the wear was from dirt or grit, instead I think the wear on fins was due to the loose action of a worn bearing in the turbo and the fin hitting the turbo housing grinding and knocking ( i heard that noise ) which would answer for the wear on the fins. Willie I gone to put the turbo on and do exactly what you said. Then I gonna "dig baby dig" Thanks for the good advice. I will let ya'll know in a few days "hopefully" how it turns out. Thanks Again - Bubba
Make sure ya dump clean oil into the oil inlet lube port before starting engine give the turbo some spins by hand while puttng oil in
Well fellows, I just about got the turbo in and should be through with it tomorrow. I was tough little job. It just is no room to work on the dang thang. I got the turbo from Nothern Tool and Equipment in Idaho. Scott was there for me everytime I called him to assist with any of my problems. I had to make some modifications to install it. The bottom oil line from the turbo to the oil pan would not fit, the tube was different. It had a nipple that screwed directly into the turbo instead of the nipple with two small bolts on the original one. Also the tube was angled toward the engine instead of line up straight down. I had to cut the steel tubing and splice it with a rubber oil line. I had it crimped and also I put a small hose clamp on each end. I had to fit it with a rubber line about 6 inches in order to be able to be flexible enough so that I could bend it. I made sure the line wasn't crimped so that the oil could drain adequately back to the oil pan. I hope this will work. Also these turbo are assembled so that you can loosen 4 bolt so that you are able to turn the intake side so that you can line up the intake hose. I sprayed some lubricant in the top of the turbo and turned it so that I would be pre-lubricated. I used lithum grease. I hope that was ok. I justed wanted it lubricated good before the oil was pumped to it. If anybody ever has to replace one and has never done it before, be prepared and don't get in no hurry. I removed the alternator, Intake and exhaust manifold, air cleaner basket so that I could have as much room as I could to install the turbo. In referrence to my original post concerning what the mechanic told me about dirt being side of the engine. I took a small pencil magnet and put it in the intake and exhaust side of the engine and didn't get any type metal on the magnet in any of intake or exhaust ports. I wasn't satisfied with that so I took some gorilla tape and tape it to the magnet and stuck each port and move it all around to see if I could pick up some trash or debris inside the engine and didn't come up with nothing on the tape. I also drain the oil in a clear clean container and sealed it and couldn't see anything in it. I going to try and get oil sample done soon. I'm confident that it doesn't have dirt in the oil. I will let ya'll know how it runs when I get it completed. Thanks for loaning me your ears and your brain concerning this. Say a prayer for me. Bubba
Great write up. Can't wait to hear that's it's up and running great!
Hello Fellows: I just wanted to give you update on my T200 "Heavy Smoking" problem. I finaly got the replacement Turbo installed after working on it a week and busting some knuckles. Before installing the oil and filter, I decided to try and blow out the radiator to get all the oil I could get out of the machine. I disconnected the main oil line from engine to radiator and slightly blowed it out, some oil did come out. Then I reversed and went to the right side so that it would allow me to pour some seaform in the line and then blowed it out. Some came out but it was much thinner. I re-connected the lines, replaced the air filters and filled it up with oil. I used 15w40 Rotella and it calls for 16 qt. but I think I got about 14 qts in it. I cranked it and it started, it was smoking but I felt like it was burning residue from the muffler. I let it idle for about 15 min then increased the throttle to back out of shop (still smoking) engine was missing but I had to replace a fuel line that I broke and considered air in the line. I just idle around in back just a little bit (still smoking) I increased the RPM t0 1900 and I noticed that black smoke like it was burning diesel came out. I felt like that was OK so I drop the bucket and just skeem the surface ( still smoking ) I noticed that it was somewhat weak. I ran it for about 10 min. and decided to load the bucket. As I put it under load it immediately begin the heavy solid white smoke and the it shut down. I attempted to restart and as I cranked it just pumped white smoke out. After about $1000.00 and a weeks vacation I got the same old problem. I reckon the dang engine is gone. Anybody got a magic wand that they wanted loan me or depart with let know, I may just have to pull the engine and get her rebuilt. Any suggestions would be considered, and I appreicate again ya'll loaning me your shoulder to cry on. Thanks Bubba
You sure have had your share of grief with this problem Bubba. I can't help but go back to this quote from your post #11. Granted, there's no way we can diagnose what the problem is with your engine as none of us are there looking at it, all our suggestions are based on what you have posted. But that quote, if in fact it is true, really sticks out to me. I have never seen an engine completely wear out immediately, it takes time. Likewise, I have worked on engines, two stick out in my mind, a Perkins in a JCB and a 4D95L in a Komatsu PC755UU, both of those machines had engines that were so weak on compression they labored to start on starting fluid, took like a whole can to get them running, but they would start and run. That is a worn out engine, and that kind of wear does not happen overnight or suddenly. I'm still real suspicious of the diagnosis the mechanic offered you. But again, I'm not there looking at it, I did not see the worn out turbo. Ideally, a compression test would offer you the most beneficial information, but not everybody, especially an ordinary machine owner, has the equipment needed to test the compression of the cylinders. Before I soaked it with any more money, I think I would do a little test. Disconnect the electrical connection to the fuel solenoid so the engine is not getting fuel. If the engine has glow plugs, disconnect the electrical connection to the glow plugs. Remove the air filter from the filter housing and leave lid off. Have someone crank the engine and give it just a light shot of starting fluid, see if the engine fires off with gusto when giving it a shot of the spray moonshine. If it does, try it again and see if you can give it some very faint squirts to make the engine run momentarily. If it fires right off with starting fluid, and will even growl and continue to run on starting fluid, I would highly doubt your engine is slap worn out. On the other hand, if it still has difficulty starting and running. Well drat. I'm hoping it's the former and not the latter.
Bubba, have you looked at the blow by tube and see how much is passing the rings? Just a visual on blow by can go a long way on diagnostics (try to warm it up also and check then to).
Thanks Willie, I will do the test when I get back home and let you know. Thanks Bubba
Thanks Iron Dirt. Can you tell me where the Blow By Tube is. I don't remember seeing it when I put it back together from the Turbo Swap. Thanks Bubba
The blowby tube on that engine tee's into the intake piping just ahead of the turbo.
Hello Willie (ATCO) I just got through doing the test with starting fluid that you suggested. I removed the connectors from the 4 glow plugs, removed primary and secondary air filters, and disconnected the plug that goes to the fuel shutoff solenoid. We cranked it with a shot or two starting fluid and it seemed like it wanted to start but stopped cranking because it sounded like it was going to lock up and I was a little afraid I might do more damage. Then I had him turn it over and keep it turning and at the same time spraying starting fluid in it. I acted like it might want to start or fire off but I was never able to get it to continously to run with starting fluid. This machine has the computer stuff on it and I had problems in April with the Tilt Actuator. The Bobcat dealer could never find the problem so he replaced the main wiring harness. When I was changing the turbo I noticed that the main harness was riding on the cooling fan belt idler, when I picked it up to move it and check it, fire shot from the harness. Then I noticed that two wires had been cut into. Before installing all the stuff around the turbo I spliced those wires and taped all the ones that had the rubber insulation rubbed off from the fan belt. Then I tied off with tie straps to prevent it happening again hoping that I had all my problems fixed. Just for infomation the total bill was about $3000.00 but I complained to the sales mgr so bad about buying a machine that they claimed they had went through and I paid to much for, he decided to split the bill, Well I didn't get a bill for 4 months so I thought he would just waive it but anyway he and I are still talking about it. Do you think that the wires that were cut could have affected the diagnostic system of the computer and prevented me from receiving a warning of some kind in the event of "low oil" or "hot engine" or "dirty air filter" to noitify me to shutdown the machine and show active codes before a major problem happen. Just Wondering. Anybody wanted add anything the "floor is open" go for it. Thanks Bubba
Well Bubba, that starting fluid test is not a definitive yes or no about condition of engine, just gives some clues. Remember, only a compression test would yield the most beneficial information. But, the fact that it tried to lock down, about the only way that could happen would be from compression being present. I've worked on worn slap out engines that you couldn't get them to lock down by drowning them with starting fluid and still managed to get them to run. Again, this is not definitive, engines vary greatly in how the react to stages of wear. One thing I'm really beginning to wonder at this point is the possibility that the cam timing belt has jumped. That would make that engine run really goofy and eventually not run altogether, something you might want to look into.
Thanks Willie. I probably owe you a week salary for the time you spent with me on this but you don't know how much I appreicate YOU and everybody else for all their help with this thang. I might break me but it ain't gonna beat us. I gonna take it tomorrow and have a compression test done on it and also have the injectors checked. My last one broke the lugs off the timing belt, I had it next to a pile burning and using the blower to get the fire burning hot. It made a devil of racket and sounded like a bomb went off. I thought it had injested some fire in the engine and just blew up. But I found out it was a timing belt. The call Shiver Diesel in Tifton Ga, the Duetz dealer and replaced it on the trailer one afternoon at there shop. I hope I can find out something definite tomorrow and let YOU and everybody else know whats going on with this thang. Again Thank You for your help. Take Care and BE CAREFUL. If they don't satisfy me, don't be surprised if you don't see me driving in one day with this machine. I reckon its OK to say that on HEF, if not I appologize. somebody let me know if I'm not suppose to say things like that on here. Thanks Bubba
Aww, no worries bubba, it helps me just as much to be here working through problems like this until a resolution is achieved, helps me learn something during the process. I do hope you get some good results for a change.
Bgg It,s not that hard to spot a turbo problem on a duetze,or any turbo. Pull the intake hose. If you feel any ressistance, pushing in or pulling out,wiggling the shaft. The turbo could be the problem. Not alot of tolarance with turbo`s.
Hey Willie I got it checked out today. James listen to it run then he loosen the fuel line on each injector while it was running, He started with the # 4 cylinder (Duetz are backwards - #4 is the one on the far right facing the engine from the rear of the machine which is closest to the timing belt) and while it was running when he loosen the fuel line it missed each time UNTIL he loosen # 1 and was not hitting on nothing. So he removed the injector and went and had it checked and cleaned. He reinstall the injector and the glow plug and we started it again and it still was running with no improvement. Then he did a compression test on the #1 cylinder and it indicated 0 (nothing) he thought that is compression tested was messed up so he went to check it out and it was OK. Then he put his finger over the inector port and there was no pressure on it. He said it should be pushing his finger up, I tried it and you could barely feel in pressure on it. So it appears that we got problems with the # 1 cylinder. He going to pull the head off tomorrow and see what the problem is and I will let everybody hopefully Friday or Saturday what he finds out. What you Think? If the cylinder walls are good and not scarred up from a seized piston and all it needs is one jug repaired should I just go ahead and rebuild the whole engine or just fix what is broke. The machine is a nice machine and I probably going to keep it for a while, but I don't want to spend no more than I have to but I want to know that when we put it back together I can depend on it for many hours. Appreciate any advice You or Anybody can give me on what course of action I need to take and how much. Thanks Again TAKE CARE-BE CAREFUL Bubba
Thanks BGG for your input, I will remember this in the future. I have never had any dealing with a Turbo other than operating machines with Turbo's. But I'm Learning. Bubba
Hey Les-LWG, You still following my thread on the T200. I know you got one and don't want to miss out on all this stuff. I'm thinking somehow my T200 wasn't get oil to the #1 cylinder when the machine was on a slope (or tilted somehow ) while working it. I don't know but I need to know why it didn't get enough oil if case may be why the piston and main bearing, etc was getting lubricated. I also thought that these engine has some kind of safety net when they are short on oil. It seems like there should be a shut down if it is low on oil and wasn't picking up oil from the oil pan. We want know the whole story (or may never know) until the mechanic gets it apart. Thanks Bubba
Bubba keep you fingers crossed it could be something simple like a stuck valve or burnt valve , both are just top end work and fairly simple. Best of luck my friend!
Well Fellows the Fat Little Lady has Sung, and it ain't good. My Duetz Mechanic has pull the head off Sell found that the injector was improperly dispensing fuel to the piston. Instead of spraying fuel it was sqirting fuel on top of the piston on the side in the wrong place and it burnt the side of the side of the piston on #1cylinder scaring the cylinder wall. Engine has to be pulled and rebuilt or replaced. I ask him how long it being doing that and he said for sometime I also ask him if he found any dirt in the engine and said he didn't. I also ask him did a lack oil lubrication have any thing to do with the problem and he said it didn't. I also ask him did I do anything to cause it and he said no that it was a bad I injector that just progressed to the point where it was burning a whole in the piston by the direct flow of fuel. Now I just gotta see what routes i'm gonna take. Thanks everybody i'll keep you posted. Bubba. BE SAFE
Hey, Bubba. Sorry to hear about the problem. There are a number of places that will rebuild that Deutz. Each one is about $4,500, with the core exchanged. I know it isn't cheap, but you will get essentially a "new" engine out of it. If the undercarriage is good, a rebuilt engine will give you a good machine. The parts are available if your mechanic can do a field rebuild. I don't know whether the Deutz cylinder could be re-sleeved, but that might be an option. I know that now you know the situation, and it was not a lack of lubrication, but they will shut off if the oil pressure is too low. I think it's 20 - 25 psi above idle, and a little less than that at idle. The Bobcat manual is said to warn against operation at angles of more than 25* or so, precisely to prevent damage from oil starvation. I don't think anyone pays attention to that, though. I have been told by a number of operators that they routinely exceed the recommended figure. Most of them do not have to worry about the cost to repair the machine they are running, though. At least you know the situation. Depending upon how you look at it, rebuilding the engine doesn't cost more than undercarriage work, like drive motors. I don't know what your mechanic can tell you about the condition of the u/c without the engine running, but if the rest of the machine is good, I'd get it fixed if I possibly could. Hang in there. Les
Also, the rebuilds generally do not include the turbo. Since you have a new one, you will not lose on that.
Thanks Les for the recommendations. This machine is in good conditions, its a full cab with heat/Air, it got the power bobtach option, its got am/fm radio. and all the metal is in great shape. When I traded my previous T200 on this one I just replaced all the idlers. They all went out with about 2000 hrs on it like a set of car tires. The dealer said he was going to replace a sprocket and 1 idler and i ask him if he would just exchange my idlers for his and replace the sprocket. He agreed, so the idlers shouldn't have more than 250 hrs on it. Everything else seems ok. Ever since I had this machine it seemed like it didn't have the power that my other one had. I told the salesman about it but he said that the AC would account for that. I just took his word for it. But by it being little weak on a heavy load would probably account for the bad injector. I think that if the machine starts to progressively get weaker the first I would do was check the injectors. If one starts to go bad it going to do the same thing that this one does and burn the piston. My Mechanic said that the piston has a place on top for the fuel to hit I take that kinda like a cutting tip on a torch when it gets clogged from debris. Anyway I done got a little gun shy on the Duetz engine, but I reckon this could happen to any of them. But the Duetz is so unique by design, it takes $800.00 special tool just to change the timing belt, and one man told me that if I rebuild the engine I need to replace the radiator. Now he may said that because of thinking that their was dirt in the engine. I got something else going on that I may do, so I'll know next week how it works out. I'll keep everybody posted on my final outcome. I appreicate all your concern. But I may just buy one them complete engines and put it in it. I may not have choice, but if I decide to fix it I might as well just go ahead completely rebuild it, instead of just replacing the # 1 cylinder and have it bored out. Take Care My Friend and PLEASE BE SAFE Bubba
My machine has the heat and A/C too, but the A/C is not working. I put a 12v fan in the top of the cab, and that thing is worth its weight in gold. No matter how hot it gets, it's comfortable in the cab, with no door to worry about. The heat is great. My son and I were moving pallets of crushed stone off of our trailer, and down to the an area under our porch that I am going to cover with pavers. I bought some very inexpensive forks that attach to the bucket. I don't even have to remove the tooth bar. They are fine, and are really sturdy. They were about $150 with free shipping off of eBay, and worth every penny. I guess what I'm saying is that my machine is indispensable. I don't make my living off of running equipment, like most of the people here, but it's darned important. I think you have to find a good, honest mechanic. There is no reason why simply equipping a machine with A/C would make it seem less powerful. Of course, if you are running the A/C, you are turning the compressor and that will take some horsepower. But if the A/C is not on, and assuming the clutch is properly disengaging the compressor when you turn the A/C off, the engine is just turning a pulley. Losing an engine is never a happy experience, although I found it's not a big deal with my Case 1816 -- you can take out four bolts and slide the engine out by hand. With these machines, you can spend a lot more on bad hydro motors, valves and solenoids. I wouldn't worry about the Deutz engines. Again, find a decent, honest mechanic. I found a Mennonite shop about 2 hours away. There are closer places, but these guys are fantastic. They completely rebuilt a backhoe attachment, and did a great job. Their shop rate is very reasonable, and they are scrupulously honest. I have complete faith in their work. They did a pre-buy for me on my T200. They replaced the timing belt, and it was not expensive at all. I would get an estimate for a field rebuild. If it was more than 2k, I would go with a remanufactured engine. I don't know about replacing the oil cooler, but that doesn't sound right to me. If it's clean and holds pressure, I wouldn't bother. If you want, I'll check with my shop and see what they recommend. If it's a weak point in the design, they'll know. Les