What is it? I've heard the phrase a couple times but never knew what it meant.
In a general sense it means to drive a truck empty but it started out to mean driving a tractor trailer without the trailer.Kinda like the rigs that move prefab homes returning for another load.Ron G
I was thinking it meant pulling 2 or more trailers. Thanks for clearing that up.:thumbsup
when one owns a tractor trailer system, when the tractor is by itself, this is bobtailing. We had to have bobtail insurance and this goes back to the old days where tractors, (without trailers hooked up) would skid around when applying brakes as in "bobtailing".. Tractors need the weight on the fifth wheel to stop safely, even if the trailer is empty
You mean as in: But... I always assumed that the meaning stemmed from the definition of "bob" : ....because the tractor/trailer has had it's tail (the trailer) "bobbed". Please, join us tomorrow at the HEF Literary Society, for the next in our series of roundtable discussions: "Talkin' Trucks--What is the origin of the term "Johnson Bar"?"
So does that still happen today and is insurance still required to bobtail? What's a Johnson bar? I don't speak trucker lingo very fluently.
Yup, sure is. It only covers you when bobtailing or not under dispatch. Otherwise whoever's authority you run under has to have the pubilc liabilty insurance any time you're hauling freight. It's a lever usually on the steering column or dash that applies only the trailer brakes.(It's the dash lever just to right of steering wheel, left of switchs)(I accidentally got this shot while taking my christmas grader pic):bouncegri
I ain't never driven an 18 wheeler. I thought the only thing you had to worry about was the 20 something gears. Alright, I think I'm ready to hit the road. Just kidding.....not my "cup of tea".:spaz Funny how the accidental pic turned out better than the intentional one. :laugh
I've had the camera 6 months maybe and I'm still not sure how to operate it correctly.:beatsme I couldn't figure out how to turn off the flash. Still way easier than the old days of sending them in to Kodak, and then waiting just to find out you've got a picture of your thumb. It's a whole lotta listening to the radio and slowly going out of your mind in boredom.:bouncegri
My old Mack has a Johnson Bar. Never new what it was called until now. Just called it the trailer brake.
We all know what the Johnson bar is now, but Digger is supose to tell us why it's called that.
I may have mentioned this before, but I'm allowed to repeat myself. We had a driver on the job back in 79, that was, I think, 67 years old then, He started driving when he was 14. (Do the math--that makes the year 1926.) He said his driver training consisted of the boss handing him the keys, pointing to a truck, and saying, "Find a gear you can get it out of the yard in..." No, it's a discussion forum. You tell us why it's called that, and we'll tell you why you're wrong. I ain't going first.... :spaz
The fact that I have already lost my mind means that all I'd be doing is listening to the radio and pushing all them buttons on the dash to see what they do. So...where did the term "Johnson bar" come from? Trailer brake works for me Jmac. :yup Thats how I learned to drive a 5 speed, Digger
a guy named johnson invented it of course:yup Or a guy lost his Johnson from flying thru the front window and getting hung up on the Johnson brake.
I learned to drive a stick by taking 3 laps around the high school parking lot in a VW Beetle that belonged to a gilr I knew. Then, I went and bought one, and actually learned to drive it on the way home. Adding a fifth gear was no big deal. Thre first job I had driving a 5 + 2 was for a concrete contractor. He explained that the low range was for when you had a load on, and high range was for when you were empty. I flipped down the sunvisor, and read the instructions, ignored him, and did it the right way.
I've a Nextel 2-way, along with other trucker friends and we talk on that just like we used to on the CB. I'll have 3000-4000 minutes/month on just the 2way. It's nice cuz they can be anywhere in the country, instead of just within 5 miles. It really helps break up the day, and is alot easier to use than the cell phone. (it doesn't need to be held up to your head) That very well could be. I know that's how the Jake brake got it's name. Jacobs engine brake was called that after the inventers name.:yup
This is from Wikipedia and all though it doesn't state the origin, it does say they are in steam locomotives so it must be an old term. Now would a retarder be considered a Johnson bar?
I've never heard that lever called the Johnson bar before, I've only known the treddle valve.
Johnson Bar
Johnson Bar Scroll down a ways and you'll see a close up of the Johnson Bar in a locomotive. Still no reason on why it's called that.
I've also heard people refer to using the lever as using "The Companies brakes". Many owner-operators like myself pull a trailer owned by another company. An unscupulous driver can use the trailer brakes (johnson bar) all the time to slow down instead of the the foot pedal that also applies the tractors brakes, thus saving the wear on brakes he has to pay for himself. I don't do that though.:nono
Its a good thing Jeff posted a pic, all this time and ive been pulling the wrong "johnson" bar! No wonder i couldnt get the trailer to stop. As for the boredom thing and nextel, its amazing how slow it goes when all your doing is just rolling along, have someone call on the phone or nextel and have what you think is a 10 minute conversation and next thing you know you've covered 2 states (which from what i hear in jeffs case is usually one state to many and then he has to find some construction site to turn around in and ends up running over all the grade stakes).
:bouncegri I just was just given a 2007 swimsuit calader from the Sta-Mart in Fargo by a friend, and I'm gonna have to take it back out of the truck. I had it on the dash, but couldn't stop looking at it, so I put it in the sleeper, but then I'm just turning around to look at it. I go 405 miles/day and never even leave the state.:crying Yeah those Nextels are pretty nice. Thank goodness they're unlimited minutes.
On our locomotives we have at the quarry you also have the option of being able to apply brakes to the locomotives and brakes to the cars seperately via 2 seperate handles. Since we own the locomotives and the railroad owns the cars I will use only car brakes to stop everything. This is actually the correct way to do it although the hidden benefit is that the locomotive brakes last longer because you very seldom use them. The railroad buys the brakes on the cars. Now these being electric and not steam, they do not have a johnson handle but from the findings in this thread it would appear that you could call just about anything a Johnson handle and still be correct. :bouncegri
Do trains still drop sand down on the tracks to get traction, or is that all in the distant past now too?
The Railroad still drops sand under extreme loads occasionally. Our locomotives have the sanding units and lines but since we mainly just switch the cars on flat ground, we don't use it. Its mainly for long pulls up steep hills with heavy loads.
That gotta be a fun job you have, trains AND heavy equipment.:thumbsup If you don't mind me asking, what is it you're loading on the trains? Coal maybe? On edit: Er, probobly not coal from a quarry, huh?! Granite blocks maybe?
I don't mind a bit. We load crushed stone on the cars. Everything from screenings to rip rap. We load them with conveyors and with equipment. Most everything goes through the bins except GABC (crush -n-run) and rip rap. So yes I get the best of both worlds. We are on the finishing end of the quarry. Any washed rock comes from me. I make the same stuff that yall get from the materials yards and quarrys for your jobs; screenings, 57s, ditch lining, 89s, etc. I have alot of fun.
Whats a treddle valve Steve?
I have posted this all before on another board maybe but I have always called the lever that Jeff showed us the trolley brake handle and the foot brake pedal was a brake treadel,treddle?? or however it's spelled.I have read about the johnson bar thing but never heard anyone use it in reference to a brake lever. I do hear that the name came from the throttle/reverser on a steam locomotive and the forward/reverse lever on the old Caterpillar bulldozers were called a johnson bar.Just about everybody called it the same no matter what brand of dozer it was on and most of them had one. I will say that very few others have heard the "trolley brake lever" designation either so maybe noone is old enough to have been driving back in the '50's like I was.LOL Ron G
It's "treadle". (My thanks to Dictionary.com, for confirming that.) I assume the origin of the word is that you, of course, tread on it wiith your foot. I've heard the phrase "trolley braking" too. I'm not quite old enough to have been driving in the 50s, but I'm old enough to have been listening that long ago.
At the job I was on for 20 years, the drivers called the lever that actuated the trailer brakes both the treadle valve and trolley brake. It sounds like they weren't quite correct.
Why not just call it the "Jeff Brake" from now on.....
Or we could call it a "Stake Brake". When you pull the "Stake Brake" all the way down, it locks up the trailer brakes causing the trailer to come around and knock down all the grade stakes. :bouncegri
:nono Oh no!! I want whatever I'm going to have my name go on to do something more spectacular than just apply trailer brakes. We may never know why it's called what it is, but we can start on another truck word that seem odd. How about the "5th wheel plate".:beatsme
Now your just getting carried away there jeff, we would have to put to much thought into something like that.
I also call it the trolley brakes. Never heard of Johnson bar.
:waving OOOH OOOH, Me Me Me........I know that one. Its the plate that the trailer sits on that you put all the grease on......right?
Wait a minute... If that's a "Johnson Bar" then what's this in my "Glad Hand"???
:bouncegri :bouncegri How long did it take you to think up that one?!:thumbsup
:lmao Good one Orchard. It would appear 39 posts, Jeff.
Yup, but why is it called 5th wheel plate? It's not a wheel, although something turns on it.:beatsme
When Orchards wife says "Who you gonna please with that little thing?!" Orchard reply's "Me!" in a squeeky voice
I think I got it now... If you put the Johnson bar in the Glad hand then you have bobtailing. Is the wheel its referring to, the pin that fits in the plate?:beatsme
LOL Now be fair - I don't use a squeaky voice...:bouncegri
Or maybe it's tail bobbing?
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001295.php
http://www.easternrigging.com/ejbar.htm
BobTail: http://www.armadalereptilecentre.com.au/site/reptiles/bobtail/
That must be one of them Outback animals. Do have to have bobtail insurance for that too?
Johnson Bar? I've only got a little less than 30 years in, under and around big trucks of all applications, so I'll lend my 2 cents... The term Johnson Bar, I honestly have NEVER heard of being used to describe the trailer brake lever, most commonly called the "trolley brake". The only Johnson Bar I do know of is a tool that resembles a one-handled, single-wheel hand truck with a strong, thick wooden handle. It's used by rigging companies to move heavy objects on level ground mostly,having to slip the "lip" of it under an edge, and lift and grunt... I'd heard an old timer call it a "One Armed Bandit", because if you were to use this device while going down the road to try and stop, especially if it's slippery, it will indeed ROB you of something very near and dear to your heart at that moment...namely your CONTROL. :nono There was a myth over the years that when it's icy out, or slippery at all, to use the "trolley" to slow you down. :beatsme That's the biggest batch of BS known to man. I've played around many times when bored,(don't try this at home, kids,) and went down the road while it was just me and was empty, and pulled the trolley down for fun. The first time I did that, it was a bit tense. I was immediately shaped like an "L", only 65 feet wide. and to make matters worse, by the time the brakes release again, you're suddenly very, very busy (and alert ) trying to gather your original shape... Don't use me as an example to be a tractor trailer driver though, please. I'm the guy who gets bored and does doughnuts with his 280" wheelbase tractor in a big empty parking lot when it's snowcovered.The trolley brake caper was pulled off with an empty gasoline tanker, which is basically an empty 9400 gallon atomic bomb with all the vapors...But again, it's only when I get bored. I can just see all those DOT inspectors reading this post right now, plotting a SWAT attack on me tomorrow...:spaz I can do tricks with an excavator, too...I'll reveal those in another post, another time.:thumbsup
LOL, so now I gotta hear what you know about the 5th wheel plate AND the story that goes with it.:bouncegri
What's a 5th wheel plate?????????????????
It's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-trailer#Fifth_wheel_coupling I don't know if you saw this posted by Countryboy earlier.:wink2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_bar
The special of the day at the greasy spoon truck stop?
So, why don't they make automatic trailer legs that raise on their own? What happened to them? You would think that something that made it easier on the driver would still be around. Or were they not reliable?
I have seen some offered with an electric motor that would raise the landing gear, similiar to the kind on some 5th wheel camping trailers, but much more stout. I'm not sure why they're not used often, but I guess it may be because they want to make the trailers simple, cheaper, durable, and light as possible. Any components that can legally be left off usually are, if it can be done a simpler way. Just my guess. Regarding automatic couplers I'm not sure.:beatsme I've never actually seen one in person. Probobly before my time.:yup
Most truck drivers don't get enough exercise as it is so adding things that make things easier means some truck drivers will just get fatter. I don't know where the term "Johnson Bar" come from its commonly used on the west or the other term "not my brakes" Seen many trucks with smoking hot trailer brakes but the tractor brakes are barely warm. It is mostly owner operators that pull other peoples trailers that they only pull once. Most owner ops work for a company so they don't do stuff like that because the company knows who pulled that trailer.
Regarding johnson bars, I found this: at this truck museum website: http://www.vannattabros.com/truck.html They have alot of old cool trucks that can be viewed.:yup Also has dozers and various other heavy equipment on the bottom of the left column.
Those guys are what we call gypo loggers they are definatly not high production operations. It is fun to look through the website so look at what they use and used the way logging is done on the West Coast of B.C. its not worth using old and odd ball equipment. Faster you get the wood from stump to dump quicker you get paid. Just one of the local companies in my area cuts enough wood in a year to build probably thousand or more houses.
What does "gypo" mean?
Its the polite term for haywire or mickey mouse. Gypo loggers usually run well worn out pieced together equipment. Production loggers on the West Coast can't run equipment like Vanatta uses because you will go broke. Just the one logging company which is a small familly run company prolly has a billion dollars worth of equipment. Some of the machines they have are 600,000 cnd the grapple yarder new was close to 1 million. Lots of money invested their payroll alone for the guys per month is more than my annual salary
I don't think we have any companies that big down here. Thats alot of money.
Forestry is big business in B.C. so logging companies used to be big some companies used to employ upto 400 guys. Those companies have disapeard and now its smaller operations with 30 men. You figure each man makes 30 dollars per hour for round figures working 10 hours a day payroll is close to 200 grand a month. The road building crew running the excavators each machine makes 2000 a day usually there are 2 excavators a rock truck and rock drill. The larger companies with the 400 men have a payroll I really wouldn't want a estimated per day in payroll 120,000 dollars :bouncegri
So do they have 1000 pieces of equipment worth a million dollars each or do they have 2000 pieces worth a half million each?:wink2
The company has lots of equipment and trucks and P/U trucks there are machines that they own I never seen.
From the "Beating a Dead Horse" Dept. "Johnson Bars" are not only found in trucks and equipment. Many light airplanes use a "johnson bar" to control different functions. My Piper had a "johnson bar" in the floor to control the flaps. Older Mooney airplanes had a "johnson bar" to raise and lower the landing gear. Nobody around the airport knew why it was called that either. :beatsme
If you've never seen them - how do you know they own them? Maybe they aren't there at all..... :bouncegri
Orchard, is that like "if the tree falls in the woods any no is there to hear it does it make a sound" thing?
I know the company owner fairly well they have been operating for 30 plus years he started out as a gypo logger in the 70s when he was 18-19 years old.
You have got to ask yourselves the bigger questions like; if nothing sticks to Teflon how do they get it to stick to the frying pan...and who was the idiot who called it a funny bone...and what happens when you fart in space????
Teflon tape :yup Its funny to everybody else not the one who owns the funny bone. It stinks. Now the real question is why its called a Johnson Bar which we still don't have an answer to? (I'm reclaiming my thread Squizzy )
I hate to double post but I found a partial answer. :yup Johnson Bar origin
I hate to be the one to point this out to you, CB, but your thread was about "bobtailing". My hijack is about Johnson bars. :cool2
Oh Meester Digger, you think you so slick.
I found this on a CDL practice test: So what is the correct answer? Practice Test
I know, I know... Joe...waving his hand furiously from the back of the room...
Well, I know it can't be "d. All of the above." because "c" says, "To test the trailer brakes.", and everybody knows the way you do that is to approach a line of stopped traffic at about 60 mph and stomp on the brake pedal.... :yup
Yeah, it's hard too say just what the a c tual c orre c t answer should be.:beatsme So I'm not even going to c ontemplate a guess.
Inexperienced drivers can also use it to hold a hill in order to get moving again.
But that's a secret only experienced drivers know... :yup
Something is wrong with your post Jeff. All the "C"s are underlined. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that "C" is the right answer.:yup I glad to hear you learned something Digger. :bouncegri
:drinkup The two main uses I have for the trailer brake lever are: 1) checking the brake lights while doing my walk around(I'll pull it down so they're on) 2) for sliding the tandems or plate when changing axle spacing. I'll pull the pins, and start moving very slow then apply the trailer brakes. That little extra momentum from already being in motion is much easier on the truck than trying to free them from a complete standstill.
Just because I seemed to process it and understand it, at the time, does not mean that I learned it. What were we talking about again?
New topic....lets try to keep up.:wink2 So how often do you have to slide/move the axles? I know this tightens the turning radius of the trailer but what instances would cause you to move to the shorter wheel base and not just ride like that all the time?
It depends on how the trailer is loaded. The spacing must be so that you end up with 12k(steers) 34k(drives) 34k(trailer) or less on each. A 53' trailer should be loaded like a 48' when heavy(40k+ lbs of freight in the box), but sometimes they'll load it all the way to the back doors, and then you need to stretch it out, while still staying within the bridge law. The longhaul truck's we get into our DC with the inbound often stretch the trailers for a better ride, but I need the trailer I haul short to get into my dock, so I'll shorten it up as short as possible.(I use the trailers from the pool of trailers that are dropped at the DC by "long haul" drivers) I adjust tandem spacing almost everyday, but the plate almost never. I keep that as short as posible without tearing off the landing gear with the rear drives while turning.
By "plate" you mean the 5th wheel plate? That's adjustable too?
Yup!! It slides atop the frame in a track, although some trucks have stationary/non adjustable plates. You use that to adjust the weight between the steers and the drives.:yup
I knew the tandems on the trailer adjusted but I didn't know you could adjust the 5th wheel plate too. Working at a quarry I see alot of rock haulers (talking tractor/trailer not tandem) that have very long wheel bases. Some I've seen have maybe 10'-12' between the steers and the front tandem, with no sleeper, just the basic cab. Does this allow them to carry more weight or is there some other reason for this? The turning radius has really got to suck on them things :spaz .
It would depend. They may have a truck that started out with a sleeper(most likely reason) or may have spec'd it that way so it wouldn't be as touchy when being loaded. Having a truck that is near gross weight on the steer axle,whether loaded or uloaded, and not influenced by the weight changes at the rear of the truck, is desirable. My Freightliner was touchy. I was 10.5k on the steers mt, but could easily get it overweight when loaded. My Mack is 11.3 k on the steers mt, but at 80k gross(no matter how it's loaded) I'm just at/below 12k. It's much easier to get legal when heavy than my Freightliner was. That's due to the wheelbase and setforward/back steer axle differences. Those rockhaulers you mentioned may have spec'd their trucks the way they are for a reason like that. My first guess is still they were OTR rigs at some point, though.
Makes sense. :yup Some just look funny because the tractor frame is so long then they have a trailer with regular length frame rails and a box that is about 8' shorter than the rails. If it gets the job done...
I think that the LWB tractors that you see hauling rock products are generally O/O without a gig at the moment and truck payments to meet.They install a wetline and have work for the truck until they can pick up another longhaul job.Ron G
Some guys do it for nothing more than the "cool" factor. You gotta have just enough "rail" if you want a cool ride... No different than cars, motorcycles, or pickups. Lots of people want their ride to be different that everybody else's. Joe
In this state they have a bridge formula they go by. The longer the wheel base the more weight you can carry. A lot of lowboy tractors have a long wheel base for this reason. If you add a drop axle it needs to have a longer wheel base so it doesn't take the weight off the front axle. I've seen short wheelbase trucks slide the front end trying to cornor with the drop down axle down. Talk about a moment of panic trying to get it in the air! Something I always thought looked really funny though is in Anchorage everyone with an over the road truck has a really short box they install in the winter with high sideboards to keep busy hauling snow. You see all these really fancy long nose tractors with huge sleepers and 8 to 10 foot boxes running all around.
If you want to see wheelbase, take a look at this
Well thats a good way to screw up your aerodynamics
Boy, ain't that the truth. It does look nice though, like that. I had the figures for the % change with different alterations on a truck, like air dam to meet trailer height, skirts over the tanks, rounded bumpers, etc. THE biggest % increase(reduction in drag) was from closing the gap between the truck and the trailer to a minimum. Whether doing it by adding those batwings on the edge of the sleeper, and/or a wing/dam atop the sleeper, moving the 5th wheel forward, etc. At 100K+ miles a year, and fuel prices high, that'll add up too enough $$$ save to warrant some consideration, atleast in on-highway application. For rock haulers maybe not so much.:beatsme
Not disagreeing, but these trucks I'm speaking of are not for looks. There are a few with all the "bling bling" but the others are just basic cabs on super long rails. The majority of these guys haul rock 6 days a week as a full time job.
Do you got one of them wind breakers on the roof Jeff?
My sleeper is as high as the trailer. They match up real well.:yup
We are only allowed max 244 inch wheelbase so we don't see any of those truck tractors that are aslong as a Grayhound bus. When you have tight corners narrow highways its not good to have a lwb truck. With B.C max gross weight of 63,500kgs (140,000lbs) there are lots of super B trains running around B.C. . Pulling triaxle 53s is tough you definatly use up the whole lane making the curves in our highway. Usually in 53 tridem vans we load 30 tons its not legal the maximum gross weight with a tandem axle tractor and tridem van is 46,500kgs (102,513lbs). Our overall max length is 82 feet and max weight we can have on tandem axle drives is 37,478lbs and steer axle upto 20,000lbs but most truck tractors only have 12,000lb front axles. Now tridrive tractors are being used your allowed 52,910lbs on them. Most trucks that pull lowbeds or pulling end dumps are pretty heavy spec'ed trucks usually have 450-550hp 18spd and 46,000lb rear axles.
When I was around 8 years old (those were the days ) I went to a family reunion in Nova Scotia. The thing I most remember about that trip, other than the 7 different planes to get there and back, was a Shell Oil fuel tanker I saw. This thing had wheels from the end of the trailer all the to the drives on the tractor. Do they still run trucks with trailers like this?
I used to have an end dump, and when selecting it, got educated a little in this matter. The major reason for the long wheelbase is because most end dump trailers are relatively short at 28' to 32' being the norm. Bridge law says you have to have a minimum distance from front axle to last axle (I do not remember what it is without looking it up), or else they are limited to less than 80,000# GVW. I remember for a short 210" wb truck with a 28' trailer, could only go 68,000#, and this is regardless of axle weights. Longer tractor WB gets the allowable weight up to 80,000 in 2,000 increments. As I recall, with 32' trailer, I needed 240" WB to gross 80,000#. Shorter trailer, longer truck to make up for it.