Looking for tips and advice for the best ways for a bucket wear protection. I would like to keep this from happening again.
That problem is not much wear and a lot of not enough bucket for the power of the machine. It looks like the operator was cornering with that tooth and just blew through the weld. The other possibility is that the bucket was built light in the first place.
this happened in both corners of the bucket. the steel in these corners were so eroded there just wasn't any meat left to hold the thing together.
I've seen ppl use that special welding rod that is hard as can be and doesn't wear away...you could build that corners up in that and bring it into the bucket a bit for extra protection and then could run beads across the length of the bucket at the front to prevent wear there. I'm sure someone here will know the correct name of the welding rod I'm talking about. Allot of pits use this weld on their loader buckets to prevent wear behind the cutting edge surface
Hard facing, and to some its an art... I see your running side cutters. Is that a medium duty bucket being run as a rock bucket? BTW, I've seen a pc300 tear the floor completely out of a bucket before.
These weld-on side cutters are made by italricambi. They give a good bit of meat for wearing and would reinforce your bucket structurally at that point. Ideal for gp buckets not really suited to rock application because they've to be cut back off for replacement
i maybe shouldn't have posted the bucket picture it seems to have led the discussion in the wrong directions. let me talk about the picture a little bit. the side cutter was a bolt on cutter but the holes in the bucket got washed out and the cutters were taken off. i think this lead to accelerated wear in the corner which lead to this blow out. the bucket was pushed back into place, tack welded, and taken to the shop for repair. the side cutters were welded into the corners and used as part of the structure during the repair. this will be fine for 50,000' or so but so but i will eventually have to figure out the next step when the side cutters are worn down. we are not using this as a rock bucket just regular trenching, but it does get a lot of use and my guess it is a medium or general purpose bucket. what i really want to know is the proper techniques and tools to keep this from happening on other buckets. we have used hard surfacing but it doesn't seem to last like i want it to. we hard surfaced a 36" for and ec330 on monday and by thursday the real important wear areas where wiped clean of the hard surfacing. i was hoping there might be some great tips out there as far as what others are doing. i have heard of ar steel, laminate products, hard surfacing, steel bars and plates in various parts of the bucket and so on.
There was a thread on here about 1.5 to 2 yrs ago that was about hardfacing, and what pattern to use. The general theme was to let dirt build up, and keep dirt wearing against istelf. DOn't know if the thread is still around or not.
Esco makes a ton of different wear solutions for pretty much any application. I would start by calling them.
esco and hensley don't have very good web sites and it seems like they put the product out and leave it up to you to figure out how to use it. that is why i was asking.
the first pic you posted, was not a wear problem, it was an operator abuse problem on edit...where the hell in N.D. are you hitting those soil conditions?
i would post on a welding forum theres lots of good guys on there and know what there talking about might send you the right way
you must be using the wrong kind of hard facing. Check in to stoody rods and wires. I haved used them, and not had a problem if applied right and under the right conditions. stoody 35 rod is what I have used in that situation. Repair the crack. use a build up rod if necessary and hard face one or two passes.
the first time around it was an abuse problem. this time the repair welds eroded and caused the failure. the first failure was north of killdeer. this one was north of minot.
has anyone used AR steel or a "laminate" product from hensley? a salesman also quoted me something called a "chocky" (sp) bar once. anyone heard of that?
Some of the replies, in this thread, seem as though they are puuting you off a bit. I applolgize, in advance, if this one does also. In my opinion, I also saw a bucket that was used to "pry" and this is how the floor was seprated. I am guilty of this and have had this happen to one of my backhoe buckets. It takes a lot of force to make it happen to both sides at the same time. In a later post you explained that this is what happened, and that you had the bucket repaired and that this happened after the weld was basically rubbed off (to the point of not being strong enough anymore). IMO, this looks as though the repair was not done correctly. As I said this has happened to one of my buckets too. My bucket was repaired and still is working fine today. This happened when the bucket was almost new (as was the machine). The backhoe now has over 12,000 hours on it. Granted that bucket was not on there for every hour, but it has been on there for the majority. Bucket cutting edges (as with all abrassive resistant metals) require special welding techniques. It does not look as though the lack of pre-heat/slow cool is the problem. If it was you would see the bucket cracking at or near the weld. The wear metal becomes to brittle if the technique is not correct. IMO it looks as though the weld was made for the full thickness of the side plate. There appears to be plenty of thickness in the side plate itself. If it were welded properly, I don't think this would have peeled apart again. As far as wear goes, it sounds like you are experiencing very accelerated wear. I have hard faced my buckets with success. I dig in the ROCKY Mountains. Shot rock is included in the things my buckets encounter. This is pretty abbrasive. Are you digging in volcanic rock? This is probably the most abrasive substance I'm aware of. You might try talking to some one in the mining industry. Coal is very abrasive also, and there are a lot of things available to extend bucket life for this application. I'm sure that your dealer has had experience with this. I recall seeing some wear rings (offered for sale at my local Cat dealer). They were from a European company (sorry, I can't recall the name), and I know they are expensive. They looked like oval washers (thicker of coarse). The hole in the center was so they could be welded there as well as the outside edges. The applications are as verried as your imagination. Dozer blades, off road truck beds, buckets. Anything that requires wear resistance. Good luck.
my daughter in law's parents farm near kenmare, and have their own oil drilling company there.
I have used a lot of AR Steel - Generally ar 400 in bucket repair As far as Hard Facing goes it has its uses , but I do not use it in bucket rebuilds .
Hi there, I think AR400 is the same as Hardox 400 (or has the same proberties as it) I know Hardox 400 is a good hard wearing metal, the last co. i worked for used it alot and it seemed to work well! Also as some else here said, the trick is leave spaces between wear bars to alow dirt to build up and wear agaist dirt rather than dirt to metal! Also as onewelder said he dont use hard facing on a bucket rebuild, i also have be told not to use hard facing on wear plates/buckets etc as it can cause extra stress in high stress areas! I dont know how true this is as its second hand info, but to me it has a certain amount of sence to it! I have also seen products such as kencast from www.kennametal.com I have No experience of this or any product like this, but it looks like it good be worth a call to your closest supplier to talk about costs and maybe a trail! CPS
I have been reluctant to respond this post because know it is going to result in me doing a lot research to verify information. Here goes I have read in the Cat lit. that they will void their limited warranty if you hard-face their cutting edges , shanks , or teeth - Believe it to be a footnote in the Ground Engaging Tools. - Have also seen it in John Deere and Esco Lit. Their reasoning is as CPS said that it may cause stress points that crack . On a personal note I have seen this happen many times over the years. The opposite to this is Stoody ,MG , and other specialty welding rod suppliers all offer welding rods to do this very thing , usually posed in front of some huge mining machinery. The next thing I will mention is that those of you buying the specialty rod for build up , should compare its chemical composition to that of 7018 , remember there is more than one rod in this classification. Upon comparison you will likely find a 7018 rod that is the same chem. make up at much lower price To the person who suggested building up the corners with hard stuff - All of the Ultra Hard hard Face rods I know of suggest a limit of TWO PASSES In general I find it cheaper and longer wearing to add material rather than hard facing Keep in mind hardface rod deposits at about the same rate as reg. welding rod ( size for size )
very interesting. if you all keep posting your thoughts i will keep reading. thanks!
When you hard-faced the bucket that lost most of it in 3 days, how was it applied? Most types of hardsurfacing are meant to be used only as a cover pass , meaning you need to build up the area to be faced with an appropriate filler metal first. Once it's built up, then you lay down the hardfacing in one or two layers. If you do layer after layer after layer of hardsurfacing, your next layers will never fuse properly b/c you're always trying to weld on a successively harder layer of metal. And like someone said there is some art to it. Depending on the rod, in can be royal PITA to lay down a decent bead, especially if the rod is for flat or horizontal only, and you need to weld up or down a little. Also there are a bunch of different hardface applications, from protection from continuous sliding/friction forces, to severe metal-to-metal or metal-to-stone abrasion. Matching the hardsurface to your typical operating conditons would be the first place I'd start, or like others have said, jump to AR plate. When I worked for a company that built conveyors and mudhoppers for aggregate plants, all the hoppers, be it for concrete, gravel, sand, etc... got AR plate for wear protection. It welds decently with the right filler, but drills like a son of a gun if you gotta put any holes in it.
there was no build up. the bucket was for all purposes brand new. the areas wiped clean were horizontal single passes in the corners of the bucket and on the outsides of the side cutters. the other areas we hard surfaced are holding up pretty well, but not those two places. on either the torn out bucket or the other bucket we did not do any build up with hard surface rod.
I did some searching and here are some threads that are relevant. HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums
hi, I'm no expert but imo that bucket is fixable though it looks like it needs beefing up htru the sidees and some armour (or chockyblocks as you call them) thru the heel of the bucket. looks like operator abuse to me tbh.. too much prying on that side of the bucket.. however like I say I'm no expert and I was once wrong before..
My welder told me one day after a scraper gooseneck broke....If its metal i can fix it. Most put the hardface on many many areas of the bucket that dosent wear, the way i look at it is, if your hardface is gone that is were it is needed the most. Pj
Hardfacing has its uses but sacrifical steel is the way to go. We grow potatoes at home and have tried hardfacing on the ridger and destoner wearparts. It doesnt last more than a day or two on heavy wear areas. Weight gain can be an issue on buckets but my own opinion would be weld it on and wear it off, hardfacing just isnt worth the time involved..
For any1 doing a bit of bucket repair work i found this mouth watering job on weldingweb, have a look and see what you think. Beautifull workmanship http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=39022&highlight=excavator
Hope I'm not stepping on ant toes but using a general purpose bucket in conditions that are scrubbing off hardface is not ideal for the operator or the bucket. You also have to watch what type of metal you are working with as hardfacing is not reccomended for certain materials used in wear plates and teeth. I'd like to see more pictures of the bucket, heel and floor construction. You have an ec330? Maybe it has a Geith bucket? Take a look at some of their construction methods; wearplates the width of the bucket spaced for buildup all seams are more than 2x as thick as the common material buckets built to match the Geith ones we had turned out great and took some serious abuse in shot and hardrock. Search for Geith XF buckets if I had enough posts I'd link a pic, probably overkill but definitely food for thought the shank/surrounding area is massive.
Bucket Wear Protection: That's almost an understatment... couldn't get much better... :thumbsup Of course, our equipment isn't nearly as big, but I love doing that type of work, and we have most of the tools, and skill, to do it. Would make a dandy winter project, if only... I had a decent shop... :Banghead Clever idea of cutting that C-clamp in half, and being able to use it about any place... just weld it right where it's needed... :cool2 A very informative post, Jam... thank you. OCR
yea i thought so too ocr! beats the old wedge style thing the boys i used to work with used!! Already have ben looking around the shop for an old steel one, most of them are crappy cast of some sort! But il be sure to try it out when i get one
i like the sacrificial metal idea best. i am seriously looking at chocky bars or something called laminite. i guess it white steel over mild steel that is easy to weld on.
Well, my $0.02 is that you do not have a wear problem, but a problem of poor quality steel and poor welding techniques in the bucket build. The pictures you showed look like they still have most of the original thickness. There is some wear, but not enough to be the sole cause of the problem, in my opinion. I have found that with a good Cat or ESCO bucket, you can get a long life, and with a lot of others, they are needing rebuilt very soon. Based on the lack of wear on the shank adapters, the bucket is not that old. I have had some aftermarket buckets come apart just like yours, or worse, with no more wear than you show, while a good quality bucket will keep digging when the adapters are worn to a rounded hump, and the edges are scalloped 5 to 6 inches deep between the teeth. Chinese buckets are the worst, and Italian made are not much better, in my experience. I would invest in some Brinell 500 for the leading edge, and make sure you get a full 100% weld when you put it in. If you are in a lot of rock, use pin on leading edge protection that does not stick out the sides. The boly on wings are good in spft material, but add a lot of leverage in rock. The angled leverage helps cause what you have now. For wear protection, instead of buying high dollar stuff, I use old cutting edges from dozers and scrapers. The steel in them is hard, and the price is right. As already stated, leave gaps where the dirt can build up, and when they wear through the weld holding them on, add new ones.
Well said Jerry, old cutting edges are excellent material for wear strips. You've already got the $$$ out of them on the dozer and they make an excellent second life as wear strips on various types of buckets. D8R edges on the bottom of the 953 bucket to the D5G edges underneath my skid bucket.
We dig in nothing but rock and hardpan. Our Cat bucket wore a hole right through on the bottom. We welded 3/4" AR400 strips on the bottom and on the sides. Also, the bucket cracked along the weld where the ears attach and on the top of the bucket. We welded gussets from the ears to the bucket and plug welded plates on top of the bucket. Every winter, the buckets get hardfaced.
CHOCKY BAR, normally reaches HB700 at least, it's wildly used in GET area and mining industry for increasing the performance , prolonging the equipment life and reducing the downtime. Check my pictrue, it's just one of them. Hope it's useful~ By the way, I'm new here and would like to learn and share more information~
Instead of buying chocky bars we ended up cutting grader blade and welding it on. We build in lots of little spots for dirt to get stuck. It seems to work great. We are also very religious about keeping side cutters and strike offs on the buckets. On our bucket that tore apart the side cutter actually got welded on and became part of the structure in that corner that cracked out.
I never saw this thread before but here's my thoughts: - 1. The bucket sidebar will always need protection. Leaving off a sidecutter for whatever reason is tantamount to saying "This bucket is scrap" because you're exposing the structure of the bucket to wear. 2. Using a tooth that is too long coupled with using the teeth as a prybar can produce excessive stresses in the welds between the sidebar and the lip casting that will rip open welds like the photos that started this thread off in the first place. 3. Bolt-on sidecutters are there to protect the lower end of the sidebar but they are not necessarily the best way of doing it if conditions are very abrasive because sidecutters only seem to protect the outside corner of the bucket sidebar and not the inside one, this is especially true when the sidecutter has worn a bit. Also it's very common for wear to take place in the sidebar above the area that's protected by the sidecutter. A solution is wrap-around sidebar protectors, if you have the wear issue higher up then go for double. A lot of buckets have the holes for mounting them already drilled in the sidebar. I've attached a couple of illustrationsw below for comparison. 4. Some wear protection in the form of transverse plates welded across the back of the bucket is always a good idea. On both drawings below you can see this.