I just won a bid on a split level house pad. My question is this; the plans call for using the cut material for the fill material. The engineer has not calculated the quantity actually needed. So my concern is starting my fill in the right place. If I start the fill too far down, I won't have enough to reach my grade height. I made a jig to check a slopes angle, say2:1. Would it be terribly inaccurate to set the jig at the edge of proposed pad and then run a string down to zero grade? Small job, no grade setters, plus I've got a lot to learn! Love to hear some thoughts.
Why not just use your take-offs from the bid, shoot your elevations and measure and stake it out yourself? :beatsme
Cut/fill Please excuse my ignorance, but could you describe what you mean by using my take offs. I just need to see it done once, then I'll get it. I just haven't had that opportunity.
Ask the builder for the lot PLAT PLAN. PP should show location of the house, set back's, drainage plan. What's the finish floor elevation?
Cut/fill Ok here's the deal. I have a plot plan with elevations, finished floor height and so on. I just don't quite know how to use all of the info on the plans. I know I'm gett'in high maintenance now!
I really appreciate all your advice and insight with this!!
Finish floor elevation is 45.66
ummmm how did you bid the job, the ffe is only relevant if we have the whole plan to look at. I dont want to say you are in over your head because i know nothing about you but i think a little more homework has to be done before you bid a job like this in the future.
Ok, we now know the Finish Floor Elevation is 45.66 what is the highest on the site and the lowest and is the 45.66 a concrete slab ?? if so then your subgrade will be - the concrete thickness and any base material that will be required. what about compaction ?? and how much are u going to loss to compacting the sub-grade ?? there is a lot more info we would need to help u i think ??
ok, house finish pad height is 55.0', lower basement finish pad height is 45.66'. These are only finish pad elevations. Finish floor elev. is 56.5' & 46.5' respectively. I'm anticipating loosing about 25% soil volume to compaction. I need to get 95% compaction. How do I use the lower basement pad elev. to figure out where to start the toe of my fill? I understand if you all want to walk away right now.
what is existing grade!!! how much cut!???? how much fill? what size foundation??? to many variables here its not that we dont want to help you we cant!? there is not enough info!?
Not a lot of info to go on, but it seems if you have the plot plan with the location of the house and size of foundation you could start with staking that out, then doesn't the house plan show where the split is at on the foundation plan? I would start the fill past the step down to get my compaction then cut it out to the right distance from the corner of the house after the pad was built at the last so you have a good straight jump up on the pad. Just a suggestion hard to tell without the prints and a look at the site.
If the engineer is worth a xxxx set your top grade stakes and your bottom grade stakes and grade those elevation and the rest should take care of itself..Compaction should be done as your placing the fill from the borrow and if you come up short, i smell a change order $$.
If you're placing the fill on a slope, you better notch the hillside or after a few heavy rains, the fill might decide to go downhill.
Right. Ok, picture a 35% slope w/ an existing bench cut in @ 55.0' elev. This could be a bench mark. Below the bench will be the lower basement portion of the house which is 70x30, running horizontal to the slope. It's a split level house. The engineer shows the lower basement cut/fill starting elev. being 46.' He shows about a 5.5' fill, & the cut I'm not as sure on the height, since it's on this 35% slope. does this shed any more light??
Take-offs are the measurements and quantities derived from the plans and specifications that you based your bid off of. Your basic L x W x H = volume stuff. How did you calculate your costs for this bid?
Are you licensed? Just curious. You should have an actual benchmark on the site, generally the location is marked on the plans, from this and the staked out house check the existing elevation approximately 3' (check with concrete contractor/general) behind (outside of the house) the wall on all your cut sides find where the slope meets your rough grade do the math, this will get you your fill volume. Frank
Cut/fill joispoi, The work that I've done over the years has been mostly septic installations, underground utility work, not a lot of straight dirt moving. My bidding process has been quite simple, just estimating the job by the time I think it will take to do it + any rental equipment needed or materials. Again, a high volume of smaller jobs has kept me going. I would very much love to come up with a per yd. price or something like that for this kind of thing. Thanks again for your time and expertise.
very interesting thread so far. I would be interested in this info as well. I was just wondering if you have any photos of the site J Olender? Also I was wondering from the guys giving the info how'd you guys learn are there any books worth reading on the subject or was it all hands on training?
Per cubic yard price will vary from job to job. Calculating the volume of your cut and fill is the most accurate means of figuring out how long the job will take. It is also the first step in planning your on-site strategy. The best advice I can offer you is to figure it out on your own. You need to calculate the volume of both your cut and your fill. By the time you figure out the volume, you will know all your elevations and the grade. Good luck with it. Post up some pictures when you're done. :usa
Good advice, joispoi. I do Septic installs new and replacements and i work on minor slopes alot and we have to bring in a lot of septic sand and almost all the time we use the excavated material to berm the septic fields and its NEVER a balanced cut and fill so i guess its something u learn from doing and the "school" of hard knocks.
You now the song "where did all the good people go" from Jack Johnson? Well they're all right here on this forum! Thank you all for the advice and great insights. I'll try to post some pic's in a few weeks. By the way, happy Friday!
OK, i looked at your plan that you sent me. i understand the your confusion. You have a sloped lot and it seems fairly well balanced. Your best bet is to set up your laser or transit and pull the FFE from the existing garage as your benchmark to find out where your 45.66 elevation is that you have to meet. Ignore the topo on the plan for now. layout your house the same way you normally would by pulling tape or whatever other means you have available to you. You at least have the garage that exists you can work with. stake your corners, you can worry about offsets later if need be. Find out where your 45.66 elev is with your level, transit or laser and mark it. from there cut into the bank and just start bailing placing your spoils both in the fill area and a couple of yards in a stockpile for backfilling the foundation later. Do you have to retain the Geo Technical engineer to test the fill under the foundation or is it the GC's responsibility, oh and BTW there is only a 1 to 2' fill under the building pad, you shouldnt have problem achieving compaction as long as you strip the topsoil from under the fill. You can do it the topo makes it look complex but it isnt to bad. I will post the plan you sent me here for others to chime in and offer advice. PM me for my cell phone number later and if need be we can talk about it in further detail.
WoW, Pecord Exc u realie when to bat for him and good advice on how to start the job and very good of him to send u the site plan to work from. Also we call them "walk-out" basement here, don't think i have ever heard them called "daylite" basements !!!!
That helps a ton! That's basically where I was going to start as well. I just wasn't sure if there was a far better way. I think the next challenge will be building an access road down next to the septic tank, in order to bring a pad drum compacter down to the lowest bench to start the fill. I don't know if I can get 95% with a dozer. The G.C. will be responsible for providing a geo-tech. I may give you a call. Thanks again, you've gone far and above the call of duty!
U are right about the dozer not be able to achive the 95% compaction u will need a sheepfoot compactor to get that, is the material mostly clay or a mixture of materials ??
Do you know the wall heights? Do you have frost requirements?
Cut/fill Hey Wacker, no frost requirements. And the engineer is calling for a 3" wall. But I would say it's going to need to be a little higher. He has put some quantities in there as well. Cut area,62 yds. fill area, 77 yds. He has put in a note: Grading contractor to verify all grading quantities prior to construction. How the heck do I come up with any different quantities than he did, using the same plot plan? I think he's saying he's not responsible for the true quantities! But I don't know how I'm going to come up with any different information. You guys are awesome by the way!
Make that a 3' wall!! My bad.
If you want to know where to start your fill, I would lay out the "Toe of Slope" boundary on your fill slope... That should be the very edge of any fill you will be placing, it should also be the lowest elevation you will be working at. In order to do that, just scale it on the plans from the two closest known points. Layout can be tricky at first, but you will get the hang of it. If the plans dont have a scale, just take a known distance on the plans and measure it with a scale and compensate it. Once you get the toe of slope line layed out, you can check the grades and make sure they tie in... if they don't you will have one of those oh so golden opportunities to scream at the engineer... as long as the grades tie in, you can then scale to the top of the slope, and lay that line out aswell. once you have the top of slope layed out you can check the grades there, and mark your fills as needed. If you have more than the grade stakes' height in fill, just mark it from the top, and as you get close to the top with your fill, drive another one right next to it and measure up from the first one until you reach final subgrade. Finish it with a laser though. Remember the proper way to place fill is in level lifts, so cut a bench parallel with the slope, and bring your fill up level, then just finish your slope once you get the pad to grade. Good Luck:drinkup
Cut/fill Hey thinks Acivil! After talking with all of you guys, I have a real clear picture in my head of what I need to do to get started. I think I had a lot of the right ideas, but now there all confirmed. :drinkup
There is a book on grade checking that tells you how to calculate yardage and check grade on slopes that is relatively inexpensive. Knowing how to balance dirt right and check grade since there isn't one there helps with the bidding but I had a boss that could do jobs, BIG jobs, and he couldn't even read the plans. Go figure. The book is at www.gradecheckingpress.com and runs about 13 bucks. Good luck on the job.
Well, I have gotten 95% by tracking with even a small dozer. Just keep your fill lifts less than a half foot and track it really good. It is necessary sometimes when you don't have room for a sheepsfoot and too much fill for a walk-behind vibratory.
Old thread but good info. You can obtain the spec'd compaction % with a variety of methods, a compactor is not the only way. A rubber tire skid steer does a decent job of compacting small lifts, a loaded tandem or tri-axle dump does a great job and is often spec'd by engineers to do proof rolls and a dozer or loader has been used many, many times to compact roads, pads and a multitude of dirt projects around the world. Compaction can be achieved by any means of weight, manipulation and lift thickness. The lighter the weight and manipulation, the thinner the lift.
I'll add a little to CM1995's response for those not totally familiar with how to get proper compaction. First and foremost there has to be a proper amount of moisture for the material being compacted. This varies by soil type, where exact moisture content is more critical in some soils and not so in others. A real crude field test that works pretty well for a lot of soil types is as follows: make a ball out of the material by packing it with your hands (much like making a snowball). Then drop the ball from about waist high on hard ground. If the moisture is proper it will break into a few large pieces. It it doesn't break at all, it is too wet. If it shatters into many small pieces, it is too dry. I know it is a crude test, but it is surprising how well it works on a variety of soils. Of course it is not scientific and doesn't apply equally to all soil types. Secondly, you have to have 2 of the following present to get good compaction: pressure, kneading, impaction, and vibration. Some for instances: Skid steer has kneading from the lugs on the tires and pressure from the weight Dozer has kneading from grousers and vibration from the tracks (although the dozers can be heavy, the pressure per square foot is small with tracked vehicles) Vibrating rollers have vibration and pressure You can get compaction from one of the four above by itself, but it usually is just surface compaction and doesn't penetrate as deeply as it would if another form was also present. For instance, in the dump truck example, you have mostly pressure with a small amount of kneading depending upon the tire type. The amount of lift you can compact depends upon how much of the four factors are present and to what degree. For example, a skid steer and a 5 yard loader are similar in design and both compact using kneading and pressure. The 5 yard loader, because if its size and lbs/sq. foot pressure can compact larger lifts than a skid steer. Both would do a better job of compacting if their buckets were full vs. empty. Like most things in the dirt world, experience is the best teacher. The more soil types you encounter and the more different equipment you use, the better you get at selecting proper equipment, maintaing proper moisture, and determining proper lift height for any soil type to get good compaction.
Mate u are shouldn't price a job if you can't do it. Try working for some for a while& learn. The client would be so happy when his house slipps down the hill.
Explanations just don't get more complete than that, Bob. What's fun sometimes is what people use to get the proper squish to it. Scrapers splitting the wheel tracks of the guy ahead, water trucks wheel rolling hard to get areas when they have a little slack time, compactors building a raised slope shoulder so the scrapers can stay close to the edge. It's stuff you just don't see much of anymore. Not just dig and dump. But I have to say I have seen some pretty good explanations and yours is one of them. Thanks, Bob. Sorry if I get a little off subject on some of these threads.
That's what I was thinking. Make sure you have an extra in there if more material is needed. What type of soil are you working with? 25% compaction may need some tweaking.
just realized this is a very old thread. I wonder what the outcome was.