I'm replacing my old 671 in my oil field pulling unit and found a N14 awhile back. Truck is an automatic, auto is currently toast too, and I'm going back with an auto. Transmission was a clbt 4460 and I'm going back with that or a ht 750. So in preparation of this job I found a flex plate out of a small cam Cummins that mounts to a mt 653, and "looks" correct. I ran into something I never came across and that is the wet bell housing. The 4460 is a wet bell housing and some other options are wet as well. It appears that I can change the crank shaft seal on the N14 for a wet clutch seal and plug the bell housing drain. Does anyone have any information or help? Thanks!
Welcome to the Forums CFH! Unfortunately I have nothing to offer but we have many knowledgeable members here that probably have the answer.
Were you planning on using the bell that's on the N14?
Yes, it's a sae no 1
You might want to check the area if the N14 bell next to pan, that area is normally open.
There is a scavenge pump on the trans but that is concerning, I'll look. Can a m11 bell fit on a N14? Thanks!
It's looking like I need a wet type flywheel housing. Still hard to find info on this. Anyone know more and where to get one? Thanks!
Pulled the transmission off the 671. The flex plate for the 671 is bigger than the one I have for the N14. I'm pretty sure the N14 is a no1 sae. This project with the N14 might be dead and I'll probably sell the N14 so I can buy a m11 unless you guys have any suggestions.
The N14 was not used much in those types of application. Normal engine spec'ed was the L10-M11.
Yeah it's a bummer, N14 one of my favorite engines too. I think I could mount a mt 653 to it lol, 250 hp limit
Look for a older garbage truck where you could get the auto and engine and all the controls already mated up. Otherwise it tends to be a endless run around trying to find 20 year old part numbers or VIN's for the parts counter guys that don't exist. A lot of the old garbage trucks are Mack/ allison, but the pete/ CCC ones are probably L10/ M11 if you're a cummins guy.
Yeah I just passed on a Pete 320, I bid it up to 2250 and that's where it sold at. Problem is I need a 750 for the dual mode to lock it in gear so not just any trans will work and I didn't know what trans the Pete had as I came off it on the last day. There's a Ford l9000 coming up with no title and a l10 with an auto I might go look at and see what trans it has, I'm a bit worried that it's a 653. I like engines 2007 and older. I might be able to tune shift points of a Allison 4th gen + to lock it in gear, if so that opens up 3000/4000's. Current new trans for this application is the 4500 ofs with dual mode programed in. Right now my backup is tossing a manual on the N14 and using that to build up more money to get a m11 and a proper trans.
Is this driving pumps, or just to transport/ drive around? I'm guessing pumps too if you need a lock up? How heavy is it driving around?
Mobile equipment that drives to wells, then rig up and over the hole you don't want it to shift but need to change gears occasionally. Automatics rock because of the stall and torque converter, and are extra smooth. I've ran ones with manuals before.
70k lbs approximately, twin steer and tandem rear
A Friend offered a crusty rt 1110 for free, you guys think that's enough trans for 330 hp? The N14 came with a clutch, but I will have to find a different shifter for crane carrier applications, I'm not sure what it's even called.
You probably need one of the offset shift tower's, that's what most of my crane carriers have. They are pretty common coming out of old cabover trucks. If you're going to all the work to repower, put in it what you want. Its too much work to want to do it over. And I guess I'm not fully clear on your pulling rig. Is this just a single engine pulling rig, and this engine both propels it down the road, and runs the draw works? or does this engine just drive it down the road? And then there's a separate engine running the upper works?
And I'm not sure I'd want some free transmission either- I want to know what I was getting and be sure its good before installing it.
Same engine with a transfer case to split power from the rear axle or to the draworks for over the hole. Would love to put it what I wanted but I'm very limited on money, I used my savings to buy this thing and started in March and have to keep going. Most people have a huge loan or something. Autos are 10-15k, the dual mode is 3-5k. I'm planning on making the engine/trans combo easy swappable, the engine will sit on top of the crane carrier frame, so hopefully not hard to swap. My choices if the l10 truck doesn't turn out would be to buy a used 4460 and put the 671 back in, or put a manual on the N14 and I rather ditch the 671. I'd have to put money into the 671 to fix small things. It's a runner though. I think that's the shifter. Knowing my friend the trans is probably bad too. Thanks for your help.
I forgot about a series 60 my friend has for cheap. I'm going to try to get it running today, it has sat for at least 8 years. It is already set up for a wet bell housing automatic. There is no ecm serial l, so what's the best way to get a wiring diagram for the ECU so I can get it running?
Look at some old front discharge mixers with a broken frame. Depending on the vintage it could have a Cat 3306, or a C10, C11, C12, or C13. Cummins fare is usually a L-10, M-11, or ISM, but the occasional 855/N14 pops up. Transmissions are generally HT-740, or 4560 Allison. Buy the whole mess, cut out what you want, and scrap the rest.
Contact a engine dyno shop, they will know what you need to hook up to get it to run on a stand. I think it needs a variable rehostat to do throttle and then a couple power wires.
I know it won't help you but many years back, 1970's the quarry I worked for had several Hough Loaders with small cam 855's with wet flywheels. The rear crank seal carrier had a large oring around it and all hole that the bolts that attached the housing to the block had orings around them. Also had a few off-highway Macks with direct mount Allison CLBT5860 transmissions that were set up the same way. The Houghs had a flywheel bolted to the crank where the off-highway Macks had a flex-plate bolted to the crank and the flywheel/ring gear were part of the transmission torque converter.
Well the 60 was sold, figures my luck lol. 5680 is the bigger brother to my 4460, and they are still in use, just too much $$$ Found a wrecked truck with a m11 and a auto.......shift.....yeah great luck lol. I am high bidder on it for $100 Found some leads to check on to see if there's different flywheel housings for the N14 that will accommodate a bigger flex plate, starter has to be moved out though
I think there is different size flywheel housings but I never got an answer, the guy I called has a ht 750 dr that came off a 855, so I'm headed there tomorrow, I'll update then. Thanks!
Try looking for a cheap M939 series military truck with a NHC-250 Cummins in it, they bolt up to Allison transmissions all the time.
Didn't get very far today, picked up the ht 750 Dr, came with flex plate, pto, and hyd pump. I also grabbed a new trans cooler from 1981. I pulled the flywheel off and put on the flex plate, and went to test install the trans and my rear strap broke. I need to pull the hoses and filters off anyway so I'll do that tomorrow and test install it. After that I'm going to pull it back out and install my air shifter and leave room for the dual mode to mount later.
Got the trans it, mounted just fine. Haven't started it yet and will do hopefully on Monday. Going to be a sweet setup. I need to run coolant lines for the transmission cooler, what's the best place to tap into to get a bunch of coolant flow, I just see small heater hose spots. I think the thermostat is stuck open. I ran the engine on a flywheel for 20 mins and everything was around 140 degrees. Are they 180°, I also might have to run external clutch fan control, should I get a switch at 190 or 200? My air shifter won't work, so I'm going with a engine controller, that wont run the engine due too non j1939, that will run lights, gauges, and the electronic shifter.
Stat is 185* to 195*---- 200* for the switch-Index brand makes several temps. Only large ports are on side of block , most 3/8 or a 1/2.
I don't know what kind of cooling capacity you need, but all the Allison transmissions I have seen have some big hoses carrying the oil to a heat exchanger in the lower tank of the radiator, or, more commonly, a big tube hxr in the lower rad hose between the rad and engine inlet. So it gets the coolest water available, and a lot of it.
Normally in the lower hose.
Yeah one coolant hose will go to the lower rad hose. I have a big blue shell exchanger you can see in the trans picture. I believe the coolant lines need to come in the block (like the heater) so the engine can warm up the trans in the winter. I don't know how much cooling I need either, the more the better. Last engine has a tiny cooler and wasn't enough. There's a couple of places to get the pressure side from, up top on the head is one. I was wonder about those coolant plates by the drain, I could pull one off and get a big connection welded in place, good idea?
I have never seen one fed from a small hose of any type. They always were plumbed into the entire lower hose like this. For scale this will be like 3" hose on the ends and the transmission oil circuit in and out the top/sides is about 1" or 1.25". IOW -16 or -20 transmission oil hose and full flow lower radiator for the water hose. Not connected to the engine at all. If it is too cold, they make oil thermostats for that, that could bypass the cooler if necessary. But I find it hard to believe it would get too cool. https://www.dartcotransmission.com/parts-accessories/allison-transmission-oil-coolers/
The trans side is 1" hydraulic hose, that's easy. There's some rigs I can look at, they are s50/60 but I'll take a closer look. I do know they are huge lines for coolant around 2". Its not getting too cold, it's to warm the trans up in the winter mornings.
One place to check is Big Tractor Parts. The old Stieger PTA or Tiger tractors used Allison HT 740 transmissions and had an external cooler mounted below the radiator. I don’t remember how they were plumbed into the radiator—its been 30years since i worked on them.
Ok, after checking CIH online parts illustrations, the cooler for the Stieger Tiger tractors was plumbed in series with the lower rad hose and mounted crossways at the rear side of the bottom radiator tank. Some old fire trucks with the Allison 640 would have used a similar system if i remember correctly
Never thought of doing it in series with a lower rad hose that's probably a good idea
A rig with a s50 uses the transfer line from the oil filter(oil cooler probably) to the water pump. The N14 is hard ported I think. I looked at a old S60 with a factory trans cooler and it was in series off the lower rad hose. My cooler has 1.5" ports or so which I'll size up to 2". I'll lose some warm up capability but have plenty of coolant. Unless anyone else has a better idea I'll do it that way. Next thing I'm looking at is finding a wire diagram for a 1992 international 9400 so I can wire the throttle pedal.
About 50-60 ft from where I'm working on my rig sits an old Pete, with a wet flywheel housing m11, that they want to get rid of, and my other friend owns. Would have been great to know this a couple weeks ago lol. Well I offered 1k and he took it, so after this project is done I'll be working on that engine to be my backup power train. No title so a lot of the parts and drive lines I will steal from it. Trans is a 653 or something so no use to me. Still working on the oil cooler pluming.
Trans cooler, done.... probably Coolant tank, done, well I'll put a link in after everything is done to stiffen it up. Power steering, done....hope the smaller pump runs the tandem front Engine frame mounts bolted in and ready to be welded. Rear trans mount built and ready to be welded. Air dryer installed, did not have one before Tomorrow I'm reinstalling the front tank, it's in the way of the transfer case, then probably starting the engine and laying over the Derrick so we can push the truck into the fab shop so the transfer case can be installed and the right angle drive can be remounted. Still have lots of work to do with the cab and the front fender, engine controller, trans shifter.
Did the first start yesterday. Hooked up the pedal today and it doesn't rev as good as the turn pot was having it rev. I'll have to put a good meter on it and see what's going on. Started on the air system so I can turn on the converter driven pto and see how that compares to a engine driven pto. Transfer case should be done tomorrow, drivelines after.
I know this was just a test run, but I have worked on some equipment with wiring that looks like that and it was NOT just for a test run!
That's scary! I'll use probably 3 more wires for the off/on idle switch and splice them with solder and heat shrink, but the rest blunt ends with probably get tape. I might try the data link wires to a j1939 converter later, has anyone done that before? (N14 celect) And probably the warning lights too
Well the SS296 air compressor isn't building any air. I'm guessing the unloaded is stuck open but with the intake in the way I can't see anything. Should I pull the intake off to get the unloader head off or is there any good ideas first? Thanks!
I ended up buying a new compressor since these rigs use a lot of air and didn't want a breakdown later.
That compressor is the later version of the SS296, that one is a SS338E. Same basic unit and uses the same unloader kit. The problem with the Holsets over other compressor brands was carbon build up really played hell with the unloader because of it's design.
Add in some water and sitting 10+ years too. It would just suck and blow out the output. I should have known better, ohh well I'm already down anyway.
I'm gone for the week so no work to be done. Machine shop is going to wait on the right angle drive till I get it driving. My list of to dos: Replace air compressor Fix air lines Hook up air line on pto (old line got removed) Finish hooking up fuel lines to tank Mount air filter Strip, paint, mount cab Lay over Derrick and drive truck into shop Finish mounting right angle drive Install engine controller, wire it, wire lights Install trans shifter All next week, sounds easy!
What's a good inexpensive coolant to use. I'm looking for something easily obtained and can use in all three of my trucks: N14 ec-1 +rated 2006 f250 6.0 cat elc rated 03 f350 gas don't care lol My local supply store has a ec-1 rated one but no elc ratings on it. Thanks!
ELC.
What brand you use?
What ever is available as long as it's red elc.
Is this what I'm looking for? My preferred store has the same but different brand. Can't find concentrate local. The companies I worked for just bought the global stuff and I need to stick elc in my 6.0 and want better for my N14 too https://www.orschelnfarmhome.com/fi...luted-coolant-antifreeze-1-gal-107377750.html
If you go to Peak's page it looks like the right stuff: https://www.sinclairoil.com/sites/default/files/PEAK FINAL CHARGE 50-50.pdf They refer to it as extended life and in the spec's page list the color as RED.
That Peak product KSH linked above is the same as Cat ELC. If you buy ELC from a Cat dealer it's the exact same fluid just in a different container.
Replaced the compressor, took me awhile to make a wrench lol. Had only 1 cab air supply one more line on the back tank to plug to get it aired up. I pulled out a ton of air lines and burned some with a torch. Used 12 gal 50/50 of a different brand (hd or something) but was ec-1 rated and red. Hooked up the park brake valve, fixed a burnt brake air line, hooked up the air throttle, installed drive lines, stabbed the steering wheel, layed over the Derrick, sat on a 5 gal bucket and drove the rig about 200' into the shop. Power steering pump is about half the size of the old one and steers the tandem front better than the old pump, must had been worn out. Hyd pump that came with the trans is waaay too fast, I'll have to swap it out for my previous one, hopefully it's the same drive. Talking with a friend on how converter driven ptos work looks like it will work out fine. Still going to change to front crank pto later. Started on the exhaust Still have Air filter Cab and front fender Trans shifter and all wiring. Machine shop is working on the right angle drive
Went down a rabbit hole with the hyd pump and burned up some time. The pump that came with the trans is the same size of what a local builder puts on rigs, so we are good there. The Peterbilt with the m11 provided parts again with the intake elbow and a few exhaust bits. Still have to mount the pieces. The chrome exhaust tip will but cut in half and remounted. I think the exhaust will be too solid and I think I'll have to take part of the old miscolored pipe out and put in part of a flex pipe. Any thoughts? There was a old pos big air tank in the back that was in the way so the Peterbilt will provide with 2 smaller tanks.
Added this photo as you can't see the exhaust tip.
Exhaust and air filter are done. Right angle drive mounted, just have to make the drive shaft and install. Headed to get trans shifter tomorrow and hopefully will install that, then mount cab and fender.
Couple quick pics
Ended up doing a full exterior strip of the cab and will also replace the windows which were just polycarbonate screwed in. Truck is basically done, pretty much wiring and trans shifter is left and a few minor repairs not related to this job. The cabs paint was badly cracked and the roof it was already mostly stripped and rusted. Used 10 quick strip discs on the grinder to get down to shiny metal. Brought it back around with a rattle can. Cab mounted up just fine moved 4" to the outside. The radiator hose is really close, but I have a new aluminum downflow radiator that I will install along with a different trans oil cooler at some point, probably years from now. I thought I would have to move the cac but it fit fine, just really close, like a screwdriver blade away. I had to switch the brake pedal and the steering wheel hole so the wheel would be mostly straight. So instead of gas brake steering wheel, it's gas steering and then brake, might drive a little funky but I'm ok with it. The is also pushed back up to 1". The seat is in the same spot so you are centered on the steering wheel. Mounted all the cab air supply's (forgot horn lol) except the diff lock. I forgot to take a pic of inside of the cab guess that's tomorrow. Mounted the pass fender, it will wobble down the road which will wobble the mirror, that will be fixed later. This rig is literally the only one that didn't wobble the mirror down the road. Started on the wiring and probably will try to mount the shifter in the morning. Have the shifter, all wiring (except engine), a leaky hydraulic return hose, and the rod transfer pedal (job related part) fell off and will need to be mounted again. I made my own shift modulator plug but it needs to be welded. Still will do some testing and probably drive around 15-20 miles, and I also need to change the oil, still has the old in it. Hope to be rolling by Monday morning, need getting a lot of calls for jobs, I e been down around 6 weeks.
Shift modulator plug?
The old Allison automatics have a shift modulator port for a cable to be run to the throttle so the trans knows when your at full throttle. Mine broke in transport. A friend said he just always plugged them at full throttle as the cable would get wore out then the trans wouldn't shift and would build up heat. So I took my broken piece that goes into the trans and stuck a aluminum dowl in it and set at full throttle. The dowl has been holding fluid this whole time, I'm going to get it welded and trimmed down, the trans shifter lives right there too.
Pedals, transfer case switch and unmounted air throttle, plug before welding
If i remember, if the modulator is misadjusted or set too high, it will cause a harsh closed throttle upshift which is hard on the trans. I was always picky about setting them correctly
Could be, most driving will be a full throttle lol, the most I've driven one of these is 10,000 miles in a year and this one might get 2-3k miles in a year, and over the hole it will be locked in a year so it won't shift (don't have those parts yet though) Plug got destroyed when welding, so I'll have to buy one.
Had him turn the plug down in the lathe so it could be used, joked might get in in a few years lol. PDM, engine controller, cab key pad, on/off key small fuse block, and a trailer junction box, only thing missing that will be on the dash is the park brake, air guage, and diff lock. Going to love this simple setup, was rather easy to wire Engine controller is going to do nearly everything but control the engine, have it programmed for the blinkers, lights, heater (there's not one installed), wiper, etc. I will be missing trans temp and rpm as those pins go into the controller and not the PWM, so I'll put a temporary trans temp guage in not worry about rpms. I have a spot in the PWM for air pressure and to control a aux fan, and a light bar but will wire those some other day. The engine fan switch is not working I might try to see what's wrong this weekend or might run it on all the time till I get more time. Most Cummins I have ran hardly ever kick in the clutch fan so I thought an aux electric fan would be nice for the cac. I've had this rig since October and only drove it at night once, so light bar can wait. Still planning on rolling Monday morning.
Pretty close, any day now I'll be rolling
Rig is 'done', going to do some servicing and rest tomorrow. Still a small list of small items to do.
How do these fan clutch controllers work? Put 12v to them and it kicks out the fan? Fan is on all the time, I have good air to the controller. Thanks!
NC or NO fan solenoid and switch, take your pick.
Made some money today. Truck only drove 45 mph, I'm not sure I am getting the shifter in 5th, would be nice to go about 45 with a lower rpm. I'll look up the gear ratio of the last setup. There is a leak on the front engine somewhere that is blowing oil everywhere, it is a minor leak and very annoying, I put some pictures of the front cover maybe you guys know of common leak spots? I will also need to fix the fan so it only comes on when it needs to, this setup should hardly come on, maybe a few times a day. On the job it revs up and down a lot so it's not at full rpm live driving and doesn't leak as much. The 671 would have large puddles under it so the pic of the ground is stationary power for 8 hours, very happy!
The top fitting on that fan solenoid is used when your doing normally open electrical like you are https://www.hortonww.com/news-and-events/news/all-there-is-to-know-about-fan-drive-controls.html
I was thinking that it puts a ground when the fan needs to be off, I'll do some testing next week and might have to put on a fan switch if the ECU isn't working, I also wonder if the clutch is stuck on, engine sat a very long time.
Accessory drive seal.
Blew my first ever steer tire yesterday, really glad I have a tandem front. Both tires on the pass side are made in 3rd week of 2006 so I got the goodie out of the blown one, it was in really bad shape with tread block lifting off. The pass front that is pictured will have to ride it out till winter probably and it's in good shape. The two tires on the driver side are from 2011 and one was about to show steel. $1750 later I have two new tires on the back front axle. While I was waiting on tires I picked up a fan switch, 215° NC. The fan solenoid was good but the clutch was stuck shut. I successfully wired it up and got the fan to run properly. My temporary plexiglass pass window broke from the pressure of the fan yesterday so my pass window is deleted, gladly driving with the fan not on wasn't bad at all. I was able to figure out the leaking problem when the window broke yesterday. The radiator hose was leaking and getting sucked up in the fan and blowing over the engine. The power steering reservoir is too small and/or overfull, and the suction hose leaks a little. During a turn the fluid comes over the top and then gets blown by the fan. I am going to mount it close to the original location by the radiator, which will be right in front of the cab below the windshield. I have my old reservoir which is twice as big and might get used. Friday when I drove it the engine got to around 160 (remember the thermostat is stuck open), trans got to 160. Today the fan did not turn on the highway and when I was on a county road going uphill it finally turned on once and the trans got to around 180 at that time. When I got to the location the trans got to 190. Kind of makes me want to go to a oil/air cooler for the trans since I won't get the engine warming up the trans feature in the winter when I have a properly functioning thermostat. Glad to be back making money but the list of to do remains long!
I'd like to hear some about what you actually do with this rig once you get there.
The rig has many names, pulling unit, service rig, work over rig. I work on oil wells to repair them or try to get more oil out of them. Today we plugged a well and tomorrow we are going to work on a disposal. I'll need a bigger power steering reservoir, the level of overflow to too low is too close, I'll see if the old one can work.
Heavy siattica nerve pain hit me Thursday last week so I've just been running the rig and making money and not taking care of any of the issues, luckily it's been going great except having to fix some equipment used during well service, parts are expensive.
Hope that siattica gets better pain of any kind can make doing anything a chore!
I've been mostly shut down since siattica pain put me on the floor. I needed to finish the job I was on so my friend ran my rig for me on Saturday since I'm out of commission. Love this new engine and transmission setup but still needs to be finished.
Doesn't sound like that string is heavy enough to work that N14. Nice work. How deep are the wells in your area? I never did any drilling work in Kansas. I did work on a Nabors rig in North Dakota that had a whole crew of Kansas boys though.
They are typically 3600' in my area but this well has been drilled down to 3900' at the granite wash. Engine is only 330 HP, which was by choice as I wanted more down low power and a small turbo to spool fast. Unfortunately I have not worked out the engine much but I think it has more usable power then bigger hp engines. Does pull pipe pretty fast so far.
Small overview of the rig
I did look up the compression ratio of the N14 engines and the low HP ones are 18.6 irc and this is for the m11 as well. The big HP engines get down to 17:1. I do believe this engine has tons more usable power in the pulling unit application. If anyone has some Dyno charts of the N14 engines I'd love to see them. At least while I'm hurt updates will come in video form on my small hobby you tube channel. Some tweekers stole off my rig in particular my 3 1 year old group 31 batteries.
Any of the higher hp N14's will out perform the 330, Torque to RPM. https://www.barringtondieselclub.co.za/cummins/general/cummins-torqueandhpchart.pdf
That's only showing max power, I'm looking for power at idle, 1000 rpm, 1200 rpm as pulling a well is like coming of the line standing then stopping, times 120. I've seen plenty of big HP engines just barley get into their power range then have to shut down the throttle as what your pulling you have to stop. Thanks for the link though, very useful info Also seem a l10 Cummins pull better then newer bigger motors
I don't know where you get that info from-if that were the case there would be no need for high hp engines. And they don't figure torque at idle. You have some strange ideas. None of that makes any sense. I've been at it for 49 years. Idle is idle nothing more than enough fuel and flywheel to keep it running.
I looked for a you tube video to show a rig pulling tubing heavy and couldn't find what I was looking for and I'm out of work so I can't record that at the moment. If you watch the video of my rig running tubing (top of page 4 of this thread) then imagine the exact opposite, except it's heavy, this well was pulling around 30-40k lbs. Pulling units run one gear and they don't shift, so you go to the cab and grab your gear and pull tubing till it gets lighter, then you grab another, pull some more. You will hold a gear for around 20-30 joints of tubing. Each joint it 30' long. When your pulling you can have a slow gear and the engine raps up right away to governed speed and you wait. You if grab a big gear it won't have the power to pull it and will take longer or will kill the engine. If you grab a gear in the middle as soon as the engine gets up to speed you have to stop as you pulled the joint and you have to unscrew it. I want to be able to pull in the big gears faster. So if your still following me I'm looking for low end power, from idle to 1200. All engines nowadays have plenty of power after 1200. So my theory is a low power engine that could have big HP, N14 s60 3406 etc, will perform better because of a higher compression ratio and a small turbo that spoils quickly. The N14 having 14l of displacement helps over the m11 or some of the s60s. I've only seen Dyno charts of big HP engines, and never low HP like my 330e. I only have pulled tubing once since I put the engine in unfortunately, and it did have tons of power, but need to pull more wells to really know.
Moving the power steering tank and came across this, I plan on doing a job in a few days. Thanks