Hi everyone, i am building a new shop and I was wondering if you guys had any thing to put in my shop that you guys wish you have done . I do repairs on ag and heavy equipment . The shop is going to be 48' x40' x19' high, 16' high x18' wide main door. we are going to install infloor heat with a outdoor deul fuel furance. if anyone has any info please feel free . Thanks
Heavy anchors in the floor with flush lids over them, for chaining things down to straighten them, or to pull things apart. An overhead beam for a chain fall. If you anticipate wanting to close the door with a lowboy or other semi trailer inside, you need to make it a little deeper than 48'. If you are going to work on a lot of tracked equipment, you might want rails in the floor. If you want build a prototype to make sure you get it right, you can come to my place and build one, and we'll try it out, then you can go home and build you one.
You get any Morooka dumpers/carriers in I'll be happy to help you with parts and diagnosis, best I can offer. :drinkup
I put an outside underground tank in and piped it to the inside for waste oil.. I smile everytime I use it.
Height is the place to start, you can always stretch the sides later, worst thing is driving something in, unhooking everything in the cab then the crane hits the ceiling before you can swing it free,
I would install a pit that could be straddled. How many times have we all laid on our backs trying to work under a machine.
All great ideas:thumbsup . I might add small office room with living quarters & bathroom . Would suggest a separate lean too / or enclosed insulated room out side the main shop for the air compressor . Is it just me or are these compressors noisier than they used to be ? I don't mind operating a truck or piece of equipment with a barking Detroit Diesel engine all day . Cant stand a noisy air compressor in the shop for some reason:beatsme
I think the newer compressors turn faster so the noise they make is more annoying, but maybe that's just me. Metal buildings the sound reverberates terribly too, even with the insulation bats they use. Adding a storage/compressor room on one side is pretty cheap since you're using one shop wall, makes great sense to keep stuff out of the way and your compressor away from the dusty shop environment.
How about an exhaust fan?
Ya'll have hit the spec's I would want - pit, exhaust fan - at least two, compressor in an outbuilding, rails in the floor, at least an 18' eave height Also I would pipe air throughout with a few hose reels. A waste oil pump that pumps it to an outside tank. An office with bathroom and wash sink in the work area. If the building had at least an 18' eave height, you could stack the small living quarters above the office and save space. You could also build double deck storage in one area of the shop.
Gramps how do you get oil to outside tank and when you want to pump out of outside tank how do you get it out? My father was going to put a little like maybe 5 gallon air tank in his shop for waste oil and then be able to just hook up air and blow it outside to bigger tank had thought I might do the same! Jerry
Set trusses for a customer few weeks ago on new shop pretty close to the same size as driveshead is building . This shop was 48 x 50 with 3 bays on a block foundation . Building has a partial vaulted ceiling with the use of K - trusses on the front half . The back half of the building has the upstairs room / living quarters engineered in to the trusses . I like it . See allot of newer homes using the same type of trusses to get an added room on top .
Hi Mitch Sorry i didn't get back to you sooner but all hell broke loose this week ,it s been 18 hrs days but mother nature step in and it raining. thanks for your ideas I was think of the same thing. We are going to start footing on next Moday. by the way if you live closer I would like to help you build a rail system. I have look at smaller unit for splitting farm tractors. I will keep you posted on the progress . talk soon
hi Iantraxco If I get some in to repair I will be calling
Great idea but up here the MOE would have a hay day with that, All my waste oil tanks have to been 1000 litre totes and have to a steel cage around them and have to be in a contanment area
Hi Mike yes exhaust fans are going to been in wall system and one is just for exhaust from equipment
all that stuff i want to install, Next year I am going to put on a 40' x16' tool room at the back but only going to 14' ceiling height
nice building , the room up stairs is great idea, My home is 50 ft away from the shop, so living space I don't need, I decide to build here at home because we are open 7 days a week, I know people thing I am crazy but I farm for many years and I know what it feel like to have a crop ready to go in and you break down on Sunday
Just built a new shop about 1 1/2 years ago. 50'x 60' with 16' 8" ceiling. Wood frame metal siding inside and out. If your doing in floor heat, you must insulate under the concrete with a minimum of 2" SM. I'm heating it with a natural gas wall hung condensing boiler 100,000btu and it also provides the domestic hot water (40 gal.) through a "Smart Tank" with built in heat exchanger. I've got the domestic hot water temp turned down so as I can use through the pressure washer without taking out the pump. I put on the side a 12' x 18' office that houses the mechanical room, washroom and desk area it has a 10' ceiling. Things I've done in the shop: - Installed a direct drive exhaust fan on roof with speed control and timer. The only down fall is you need to crack open a door while running the fan but in seconds it does a complete air change. - air line from one side at compressor location to the other side is hard piped with two hose reals soon to be mounted. - trough drain for one bay that can used as a wash bay as walls are all metal and easily cleaned if needed. - three over head doors two on the front 50' wall 16' wide and 14' high, and one on the side wall opposite the office 12' wide x 14' high all with automatic openers with remote. Nice feature when your driving your equipment out in the winter you don't need to get out and close/open the door. - used high output t-4 6 lamp fluorescents (12) total, with the white metal walls and ceilings it's extremely bright. - installed 2 5'x5' windows on each side wall with the bottom of the windows at 6 1/2 off the floor, let's in all kinds of natural light and people can't see in from the outside as easy. The front of the shop with the two over head doors if got 4 windows installed on the fifth panel from the floor on each door. If you need to just run in and grab something you don't need the lights on. - two ceiling fans just because. - one major thing if you have a lot equipment coming in the winter full snow or washing equipment and vehicles in the wash bay, I've installed a HRV and have it connected to a dehumidistat so when the humidity gets to high it exhaust the warm moist air but at the same time pre heats the incoming air. A MUST WITH RADIANT HEAT. - all shop tables on heavy duty casters that can moved as needed. Bench vise mounted to a shop table so it always close by when you need it. Eventually I plan on building an A frame hoist on wheels that can moved arround. Would I do anything different? No, took some friends advice and figured out what size I thought I needed and added 25% extra space. The office on the side is great and recomend that you do the same, always clean and dust/dirt free and quiet area if need for phone calls.
i have built a lot of shops...large and small...key specs they all want #1 lighting....normally accomplished with lights and translucent wall panels at eave #2 floor...thick..sloped to drain at door area...flat other place...thickened anchor areas...floor hardner..cure..and coating.. #3 HVAC....floor heat or Radient heat..exhaust fans with make up air...and engine exhaust drops #4 Overhead crane or Jib crane setup #5 a oil sink that gravity drains to a oil tank #6 vehicle pits ..or lifts...depending on opperation #7 air compressor in seperate area #8 some form of wash down area ...inside or out... Those are the general highlights we see required in a shop.......floor tends to be the most critical and hardest to change later..
Thanks for the info, I am useing 2 " SM and 6 mil poly under the slab, the heating system is a central boiler duel fuel outdoor furance. you are right a office is a must.
BIG BIGGER BIIIIGGGGGGGEEEEEERRRRRR is the best spend the money on stuff you can't easily do later
Hold your heat tubes as high in the slab as you can. Testing has shown that to be the most efficient. Also I would recommend thicker insulation. We go with 2 layers of 2" with staggered joints. If going less I would still recommend thinner sheets with staggered joints. Saves a lot of joint heat loss with better seal.
Deffenitly agree about the insulation, minimum requirement is 2" SM. Also be carefull when choosing as some have different compression ratings and the live load on your shop floor is quite different than a home. As for the tubes towards the top of the slab? I don't think it really matters as the slab with proper insulation below becomes a heat sink and the insulation below stops the heat loss in the ground and therefore it must rise. The most problems that we see with large shops and radiant heat is to long of loop length and improper spacing of tubes. I also agree with hardner, it's well worth the extra money.
Inside my building I took a 265 gallon tank,,, cut it so a back and a bottom were left,,, the bottom is about 6 inchs high to hold a lot of oil... then a screen and then to a two inch pipe to the 300 gallon underground tank with a three inch stand pipe. On the back of the cut 265gal tank I welded a screen rack to place oil filters to drain... now all I have to do is train the help to throw the drained filters out... seems to end up being in my job description all the time.
I was told to tape all joints, I ask my designer about 2 layers and he said he wouldn't do that because if your useing a vapor barrier that will stop moisture from getting in.
The tape will stop the moisture. It will not stop the cold from penetrating the joint. Not sure how your building code reads but in Minnesota our new code reads that if you go 4" thick and go out 4 ft extra around the building you can once again build a building with connecting utilities on a floating slab. The cost saved in eliminated frost walls more than pay for the insulation along with better efficiency.
Thanks Gramps so then the inside tank gravity drains to outside tank? Jerry
New Ag Talk web fourm has mind blowing shops. Remember that a shop is part of of your businesses infrastructure. Its size can be a limiting factor. You need to measure some combines and lay out how much space it would take to pull a rotor. (I think you are too small.) Plan on security. Cable/conduits for cameras. Fire. Too many great shops could have been saved with a little sprinkler system, a dry chemical self-contained unit near the air compressor and oil dump. Use 48" man doors (or bigger). Carrying a ladder, dolly or wheelbarrow and drive your ATV or pressure washer. Plan on getting a forklift or using your skidstear if you don't build in some sort out lifting equipment. We only get older and equipment heavier. For a few bucks order the Prairie farm report shop video series. Some lame ideas, many very good ones. I am about to order from the Midwest Plan Service their shop planning/ construction book $5 (I have made worse investments.) FarmJournal has a great book with plans/layouts and features of built and working farm shops. "Top Shops"? And the original printing of Herbert Nichols Jr's book "Heavy Equipment Repair" has an excellent section on shops, the second edition is not as good.
So, on to my next venture. We are thinking about building a new shop. Pole vs. steel frame. Price difference going with the pole frame will pay for the floor. It's going to have 22' side walls so stud wall construction is off the table. Does anybody have any reasons why a pole building would be the wrong way to go?
The post frame industry revolves around getting thejob done for the least cost. Change becomes very expensive and "good enough" owns "better". But I have seen so many over priced under delivering metal frame (leaks, cold shorts, impossible to add to , wet, bad floors because the foundation was not sufficient on one spot., ) The latest BTO trend is build a poured wall (in your case 10'?) and put stick built on top (the remaining 12'?) .
So what would some of you say if the cement guy says "I won't put foam under the floor. Doesn't help and if oil or the like seeps through it's going to dissolve the foam." I am certain I will be putting the foam down. Just curious what you're responses would be.
We are building a new shop just got the concrete work done and the concrete guys are the ones that did floor heat they put 1" foam down and then used a plastic staple and stapled the lines right to the foam! For a building the size you want to go with imho I wouldn't go with wood it would be steel for several reasons one would be that a wood building if it is spanning distance with the rafter you don't have as much ceiling height in the center as you would with steel yes I know with 22' sidewalls that will be tall and yes it is more space to heat but for me if I bring excavator in or use crane on service truck that height will be very nice! Farm Wrench sounds to me like that builder needs to step up to the task and do a better job! Hope we don't have leaks in our building! My 2 bits. Jerry
I would say thank you for your advice ....but i will find another concrete guy that understands the process's and proceedures for putting foam insulation under concrete correctly... its OBVIOUS to me the guy is unwilling or un-familure with the correct processes etc so find someone who knows what they are doing concrete floor in a shop is extremely important and need to be done correctly from start to finish you need someone ...engineer and concrete placer/heat tube placer to "get it right"......thickness...concrete strength...concrete reinforcing...control joints...surface hardeners...surface finishes cure/seal......concrete curing.....dealing with the insulation and heating processes....etc... if after its all said and done you have problems with the floor or the floor heat who are you going to call to fix it.......the concrete guy or the heat guy.......trust me they will neither one take responisbility.....so as STILL LEARN'N eluded to you need one source reposibilty find a guy that does the concrete and heat tubing and has insurance... FWIW...floor heat is definitely the "Cadillac" of shop heat systems...the next system down in my opinion is Radient Tube heaters.....below that is Radient Spot heaters....and lastly convection heat systems...
Shimmy RE your post #30 I have owned and built many many of both kinds......over time you will get what you pay for.....and there are tons of pros and cons..... the main two differences that are important to me are..... #1 i MUCH prefer the 26/24ga higher rib roof systems on metal buildings...(you can use them on your wood building at a additional cost i am sure) #2 i MUCH prefer the concrete pier and footing for load predictability, design and life of a metal building system over the Wood ground contact of a pole structure (some pole building systems use a concrete ground contact system that helps a lot in this regard IE morton buildings)
I would put a membrane on top of the insulation and then put in control joints in to control the shrink cracks. Any good floor heating pipe should have no problem with normal shrink cracking. Use a good square mesh reinforcing as a minimum and add #4 rebar dowels across the control joints, every two foot on spacing and about two ft long should be fine. Any oil penetration should be minimal. Don't let the concrete contractor place the mix to wet. Keep the slump reasonable for less shrinkage. If you get a bigger crack over time caulk it with one of the caulks suitable for sidewalk construction joints. Edit, I would be interested in where the concrete comtractor got his information came from in which he "learned" that insulation does not help. There are many scientifically documented tests with the various applications and every one shows the pipes in the top third of the slab with insulation under to be the most efficient in poured concrete. The only one better is insulated flooring with the 1-1/4 inch thick flooring grooved for the heat tubes and then aluminum stamped into the grooves. Great for a home but not practical for a shop.
This is one of those threads I love to read as it explains construction specs and details I am unfamiliar with living in the South. I enjoy learning how different areas and climates construct projects. Here in the South we don't have to worry about insulation or in-floor heat - it's the heat we battle.
He gets very defensive about the foam under the floor when confronted. However, he also has put up over 900 buildings. I believe the oil factor is a reasonable concern, but I believe the advantages far outweigh the potential risk. He has given us a few testimonials about identical buildings side by side and says no foam costs about $15 per month extra. I also think his concrete crews are all about volume/productivity and he just doesn't want to deal with the foam. Bottom line, I am just looking at what other guys think/have done so I can have piece of mind that we have facts to justify what we will build. We are going with a post frame simply because the price difference over steel will buy the floor, boilers, AND the lean where we will have our bench, bath, tool room, office, and loft for parts storage. In case anyone is wondering, posts will be 4' center, rafters 2', the roof and sides will be sheeted with ½" plywood, 1" HD foam first, closed cell spray foam, then cover tin. Outside, we will be going down 2', out 4' with 2" HD foam. If any of this sounds like it could be improved, I'm more than willing to discuss it.
$15 a month huh? can't argue with that Obviously you're dead on that he's all about volume. Not a bad thing but not the most important thing for you either, you have to live with this longer than he does. If you do the heat loss calculation, you'll find that the heat flow through the ground is the LEAST well understood and the hardest to predict . In general, the bigger the footprint the less the the floor heat loss matters. Also, the temperature of the slab, the average ground temperature, and the water table are factors. That being said, you'd be crazy to build a shop that you plan to heat above 60 with in floor heat and gas/oil heat and not put foam under it. Other heat sources or a 50 degree shop could be different. Edge of slab insulation is critical. Why not down 4' with 4" and out 4' with 2"? Everybody uses spray foam to tighten up old buildings for good reason, but if you have interior sheeting you get a lot more r value for your money with cellulose or fiberglass.
This is why I like this forum. Do you believe there is considerable benefit to going 4' down? We are talking about that. Also, you would recommend fiberglass over the spray foam? Guys I have been talking to claim the sprayfoam is better? The way they want to do it is 1" cellulose first, then spray foam over that, then cover tin.
so if you go pole building do you do footers or just piers? on our new shop we poured a little stem wall it sticks out like 3" in back and 7" in front! the floor is sloped slightly but if it was flat and vehicle got pulled in with snow on it the water wouldn't run out around the wall!
The plan is drill holes 6', pour 1' in the hole, let cure, then poles get packed with ¾" crushed rock. After building is up, floor gets poured inside. I have done several building sites for guys that have done it like this and all are completely satisfied. Only regret I have heard from anyone is one guy says he wishes he would of wrapped the building with Tyvex™.
I will give my vote to the spray foam.. if you have any doubts get you a infrared imagery camera & go to a building with it in the walls, look thru it at the walls the cold spots will be the studs in the wall!!! I have saw this firsthand there is no denying that spray foam is the best way to go, esp since you are that far north & it gets COLD there lol also put the foam in the floor if you are going to do the radiant heat, your concrete guy is LAZY is what it amounts to. if in doubt there are several websites that have a lot of info on installation of radiant floor heat, make your own call, you will also have some prof that the concrete guy is trying to mislead you on this!!!
Start with a larger building, both width, length, and ceiling heights, then sit it where you add onto three sides with leans if needed later on. I love my service pit dearly, wish I had two in fact, mine is 50 feet long and its still not enough at times, we put several things over it at once end to end and have need for more at times. If your going with ag repairs as well, you need a wider door or you can't get much in ag related, combines with heads won't even begin to fit through a door that size, not to mention have a place to park or unfold anything once inside, but I have no idea what kind of ag equipment your working on either. My shop ceiling is 20 feet tall, people thought I was nuts for going so tall and now it has dings in it from hitting it with the crane, you need to figure out height and then the height to clear what your taking off the machine as well as the crane your using to do it with, I'd never go less than 22 feet again, maybe even higher if I were to use a steel truss open rafter design the next time around if I were to do it again, I'd never build with a wood rafter for a shop just for that reason. I'd do a lean for everything short needed, instead of a loft in one corner or end, I hate to climb stairs and for the cost, its cheaper to add a lean rather than put a loft in a tall building. I used blown in fiberglass in my wall cavities, and spray foam over cement block walls then fiberglass bats over that with tin on the inside. In my opinion you can't have too much insulation or r value for that matter. I don't like cement block at all, cement is porous and air blows into it and through it, not a lot but if I were do it again, I'd never use cement blocks at all anywhere, it would save a lot of grief insulating it later on. I put infloor heat, I love it, but in frigid temps long term this past winter mine and nobody I know, the infloor kept up for extended cold periods, plan on two heat sources right from the start. I also did my in floor heat differently than most do, I made mine zone orientated not brining every line back to one location, that way if one line leaks, I can jack hammer out that zone and redo it, we just used several manifolds to do it with instead of one central manifold, something I really like. A cement guy told me to do it this way, he's seen problems over time with one zone leaking and instead of replacing the cement in the whole building, you just end up shutting down one zone. By separating them, I can just replace one whole section of concrete and piping. I'd go no less than 7 inches thick on concrete with rebar. I put pvc lines under the insulation and below the tile layer under the floor to pipe water lines, air lines, electrical and even pipe out waste oil without any of that stuff on the walls, I'd do again in a heartbeat, I love that idea. We also did that to put vents out of the service pit, which work great to suck stale air out of blow in during the summer to cool the pit area. I put a drain in the bottom of my service pit with a sump pump in it, it works great, kicks in every 15 minutes to pump out ground water 24/7 and we put a lot of drain tile under the pit, around it and under all the concrete flooring, piping it all into the service pit, there are some in my area that didn't do this, now they can't use the pit, it constantly has water in it and its moldy down in the pit area. I wired my pit, have air in it, lights built in and forced ventilation, all are a must, along with ladders throughout. Bathroom, wash area, office/break room is a must, we love ours. Even if you don't go with in floor heat, still put down the foam board, it helps to eliminate the condensation in the summer, which is a must as far as I'm concerned. I don't like overhead rolling doors, roll up doors, but I do like my one piece hydraulic doors, would never go with anything else for a shop door. Just a few ideas I like or would do again, not sure any of them help or not.
I wanted a pit, due to having to work on the highway trucks. Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY though it to be a terrible idea. Safety, groundwater, loss of space, just to name three. I got to kiss the pit goodbye. I'm not the only one in the game so that was the end of that. Sure would have been nice though.
I am totally comfortable with going down only two ft with the insulation and then out horizontal the 4 ft. The current state specs we are working with in MN require only 12" of ground cover on the horizontal pieces. They do require 4' horizontal beyond the building on any floating slab that has a utility penetrating it. The posts being shallower than what could be frost level in a bad winter should be fine with the insulation extending out the 4 ft. You will get very little frost depth at the building. We have installed 4" of insulation on 2" dia, 18" deep temporary water line under a truck access on a project and had zero frost under the insulation when we dug it up. The effect of natural ground heat will more than pay for that insulation in short order. As stated before the larger the footprint the less heat per foot required.
There's not as much benefit of going 4' down as there is to going 4" thick on the vertical. That's protecting your slab, which is your heat source, so you want the insulation as good or better than the rest of the walls or ceiling.
I to like the spray foam over insulation. Five to six years ago I completed a 575,000 sq. ft hospital in Northern WI that the exterior in the non glass areas consisted of 8" thick precast stone with 3" of spray foam on the inside inside with a fireproofing intumescent spray on that. I called the chief engineer a hour ago and he told me that the last five year average on BTU use is 12% under the building design calculations. They are very happy with the foam.
I won't argue with the effectiveness of spray foam. It is very effective at stopping air flow, and a consistent R 15 isn't bad. But if you can seal the interior surface (taped drywall, sealed plywood, or caulked joints in tin) then 6-8" of cellulose will give you more R value for less money than foam. You're probably talking about Celotex brand fiberboard insulation with spray foam.
I install concrete and steel buildings in the south. I have often thought of ways to better do build it. I see water blow in under doors or through open doors. I see concrete bust were the buildings are bolted down. I have seen snow covered vehicle dumps gallons of water on the the building floor, It might be best to deal with this by installing a drain around the pull in area. I see slabs crack and break on fill dirt. We have done slabs sloped and some not. In one instance a slab was not perfectly flat and the concrete was smooth but just went in to a slighty low area or dip. This was the best thing I have seen for cleaning up oil spills and changing oil. Catch what you can with your bucket, the rest falls on the concrete and flows to the low area, use a squeegee to push the fluids into a shovel and it was cleaned up quick. I have loaders and I often think about how I would build my next building. It is easy enough to throw some wood boards down and drive the steel tracked vehicle in on them. I agree with at least 6" concrete with #3 rebar, 18" o.c. 3000 psi with fiber. I would place #4 rebar in the footings. I might consider placing footings at my floor joints. I hate having joints around my work area. I do not like using a creeper on the joint areas. I would plan that out so it did not happen. An overhead lift built with big steel I-Beams would be in my shop. It would span at least 30 feet and move on the span. Mounting that would require fore thought. I do not know about floor heat but I would get it and figure out how to use a wood / oil heater setup. I would break it up with the manifolds like was suggested here. I love burning wood. It brings back something tribal. I would only insulate the floor if I planed on heating it 24 / 7. But I believe that I would only use heat in the main part of the building when I was in there working. I would have a separate smaller insulated area if I needed a full time heated area. I would not build the building out of wood. I would use steel. It does not burn. Lots of structures are lost to fires and vandalism. I would worry the most about the footings and snow loads of my roof. I have torn buildings down due to flatted roofs from freak ICE storms. I would also focus on keeping mice out of the building. Make sure the doors shut up tight. The dang mice and wharf rats can be a real problem here.
We would prefer steel but the cost makes it prohibitive. The quotes we are getting show steel building to be an extra 125-150k. Not to mention all the contractors say how much easier it is finishing a wood building. We are going to do all the electrical ourselves, this will be the third building I've done, and steel framed buildings suck to run conduit with all the beams.
Main thing I see with the wood frame is to protect it from welding/ cutting sparks. If you drywall it on the inside and use a non flammable accoustical sealant under the bottom of the bottom sheet so sparks do not roll into the crack, you are pretty safe. I used white siding metal mounted horizontal on my 36' sq. attached garage with 9 ft ceilings. It works great and really adds to the lighting. I would like to use the same in my 54' X 80' by 16' high building but it is also currently cost prohibitive. Thinking about building a smaller "work" shop and just keeping this one for toy parking only.
I had forgotten about this thread. Well, update time. After three post frame estimates, we discovered when the pen meets the paper, the post frame building really isn't enough cheaper to feel good about it. Our shop will be a Premier Steel Building, 85'x160', 22' side walls, 15'x53' lean. We built the site this fall, will be hauling gravel in about a month from now. Just going to stockpile the gravel, with the frost permits and frozen roads, the gravel hauling will go faster and be easier. I'll be sure to post pics as construction progresses this spring and summer.
I spoke to an architect I was doing some work for about Steel Bldg vs Pole Barn. He said that as a practical matter a pole barn is more economical to build up to about 60 feet wide. After that it becomes more economical to build Steel. On the heated floor and insulation thing, you might think about a thermal mass. That can be any sort of thing, even sand. You put down a couple of feet of sand beneath the floor and the constant heat (even if you only heat the floor to say, 50 degrees) warms the sand and it takes a lot to lose all that energy. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is a power port on the outside of the building to bring power from a portable generator into your electrical panel. A good size is a 60 amp inlet, which is useful for generators having 30, 50 or 60 amp power outlets. Also, and this may not apply to everyone, but when I eventually get to build what I want to I plan to have doors on both ends of the building so that I can pull a truck/trailer combo inside, park it and drive it straight out the next morning. No backing. Obviously, that calls for a bit of planning in terms of where the building is sited since you need adequate approach and departure room on both sides of the building, but it's worth keeping in mind I think. Finally, I wonder if you have thought about an "outside" room for your physical plant? It's easy enough to build out of cinder blocks and you place it outside your building and use it to house your air compressor. Piping in the air is simple and it also makes it more practical to run a gas or diesel powered air compressor.
I look at building a steel building but a stick frame was the better way to go. I have used 2" insluation under the concrete and also 6 mil poly for a moisture barrier. I went with a 32" ICF wall also. i install a 11" pipe coming into the building for the main water line from the outdoor boiler. The main part of the shop is 48'x 40' and with a 20'x 40 for a tool room and engine rebuilt . the main shop has a 18'x 16 high shop door and the tool room has a 12x 14 door. I hope to get back builting in the next couple of weeks . this winter is cold as cold can be, last wed the wind chill was -35 c and removing the main hydr line on a Cat 385 was fun at all but I guess thats why we doing it . getting back to pole barns I look at doing one but by the time you stud the wall for insulation and sheeting it was easyer to stick frame.
I put up my current shop 10 yrs ago and I have some thoughts to share about it's construction. I'm not in the excavating or construction business, I'm a metal fab/welding operation that also does repair work and some machining. I'ts VERY important that you analyze your needs before you even start planning and as a bunch of the guys have said, don't make it too small or too low. Here's my building. Steel building 50' x 160' with 32' to the peak. The structure was beefed up for two 5 ton bridge cranes for only an extra $6,000 not including the railways. I had the cranes and railways first then had the building made to fit them. I went with a standing seam roof of extra thickness because the building actually moves with the cranes and screws would work out over time. I have an 8" thick floor with radiant heat. 600 amp 3 phase power. Insulated and with steel inside finish walls. I have a 20' x 50' mezzanine at one end and have the office and machine shop underneath. Out back I have a 25' x 70' lean to which I'm enclosing this year. Here's what I would do differently if I were to do it again (I'm not!) I would educate myself better on the latest available construction materials and methods. Install bigger doors, I have two 12' x 16' doors and they are too small. Use spray foam to insulate and seal the building. Fiberglass bats were installed and I get drafts. Make sure your sub's know their business. I had to rebuild the boiler system that never worked right with the radiant heat. He did a good job running the pex tubing and building the manifolds, but he didn't understand the tempering system and controls for radiant. Take a look at a similar sized job he's done. I'm glad I did it then as I probably couldn't afford it today
Do you have radiant floor heat? And do you mean a moisture barrier under the concrete? The reason I ask is with radiant floor heat the sand under it dries out and heat doesn't transfer as well in dry sand. I would think you wouldn't want a moisture barrier in that application ? I had thought, when I did mine, of figuring out a way to incorporate some sort of soaker hose under the floor to keep some moisture in the sand. I eventually decided in the time I had to figure it out there was no simple way to meter it and passed but I still think it'd be a decent idea
Here's how I would like to build my next shop. 60x100 prefab building 4' poured perimeter wall and set the columns on the wall, with beefed up column piers of course The 4' concrete perimeter wall is to take the abuse from all the things that go on in a shop 6" concrete floor with steel insets for driving tracked machines in and out outside mechanical room for air comp. Air plumbed throughout pit for servicing underneath equipment in one area small office with full bath, a shower would be handy at least two HD utility sinks for washing up parts washer mezzanine level above the office and bath for light storage big, huge exhaust fans to battle the summer heat bulk engine and hyd. oil with air pumps waste oil evac with tank a small waste oil heater for heat in the winter LED light fixtures floor drains to wash down inside That's my initial wish list.
No, please NO. There are plenty of ways to experiment if you want to do that. The tubing shouldn't go in the sand unless you're storing heat (solar, wood, maybe off peak electric but sand is usually longer than 12 hour storage). The farther down the heat/tubes goes in the higher the temp has to be to push the heat all the way to the top, and the higher the heat the more goes into the ground.
Delmar is absolutely right. Every test I have seen has the best results with the tubes in the top 1/3 of the concrete. Putting it in the sand is 20+ year old technology. It is a very inefficient heat sink. You get a low return on the BTU's you put in to it to heat it.
I'm just circulating water thru 1000' of pipe. I want the mass of 50* ground under the floor. The guys I've talked to up here tell me the larger mass is more efficient, evens out highs and lows. And as I said before wet sand would do a much better job of transferring heat. If a guy could figure out a way to keep a consistent moisture content under a slab, you'd be on to somethin I would never put pipe in the concrete. Concrete moves, ive been in plenty of shops that the joints have opened up. A meat head sawing joints or a joint opening up a lil to far rupture a line and then u have a real problem on your hands. I know there's lots of studies out there but I'll take common sense over studies any day.
Well, do it your way, but common sense says you put the heat where you want it, not in sand a foot away from the space you're trying to heat, UNLESS you don't want the heat there right away, like I said for solar or other unique heat storage. I disagree that it's obsolete, but it's not what you typically want to do if you're heating with conventional fuels, or wood fire that's maintained constant. "larger mass is more efficient" is like saying larger engines are more efficient, basically irrelevant.
With all the talk of getting heat into a shop, how about A/C that doesn't cost an arm and a leg for us who battle the heat?
Geothermal heat pump. Ground loop, pond loop or well water. Thermal mass is NOT your friend.
Yeah, unless you have access to a year around running spring for cool water, vertical drilled ground loop would probably be the best, a large installation.
Thermal mass is a great tool if you are accessing a natural sourse of it. It is a costly endeavor if you are paying real energy dollars to heat (or cool) it. With a proper under slab bed along with properly placed and cured concrete, heat tube breaking should not be a problem. Todays heating tubes are very forgiving to concrete cracking. Heated slabs should not frost heave if kept heated. Cutting them if cutting the floor is a completely different issue. No different than cutting in floor electrical conduit. If plans include future floor cutting it probably is best to stay away from in floor heat.
I won't argue best, but a well with a relatively shallow water table is a whole different league of cost. If you have the room (and know a guy) a conventional horizontal ground loop will be much cheaper than drilling (and more efficient as the bores are usually undersized due to the cost vs excavation).
Please do your self a favour and read up little on radiant floor heating and cooling. you do not want bury the tube below the slab. you want to insulate the below the concrete with a "minimum" of R12 high density Styrofoam insulation. depending on the thickness of the slab your tubes should be at least 2" to 3" below the top. heat travel to cool, hot air rises, with out insulation you are loosing heat below your slab that when the heating season is done will continue to radiate up for weeks and sometimes months causing you to have the hottest shop in the summer.
Joeyslushr…….ditto on the pex in the concrete - I'm in the process of putting radiant heat in a shop I'm building for myself with 10" floors and 35 ton overhead crane - I'm pouring the floor in smallish, well reinforced sections and leaving a full construction joint between sections with an independent radiant loop in each section - if any movement occurs the tubing will not be effected as it would be at a control joint cracking, which seems to be your concern - requires sealant at the joints for a watertight floor……no big deal - anyway, good luck with it
I used 1/2 inch pex in the concrete, to do it over again, I'd go with larger pex and shorter runs, mine are 300-330 foot runs, I'd go with at least 5/8ths pex in the concrete and keep my runs shorter, in bone cold weather that lasts weeks on end, like last winter, we were having issues keeping the floor temps up. I'd never consider putting pex under the concrete ever, anyone that does must not have rats, moles, mice or any other burrowing critters anywhere near you, a nice warm insulation pad under the concrete makes for a very appealing place for critters to burrow into under the concrete and live, and eat whatever is down there to chew on, mainly a pex waterline. I love my zones when I put mine in, there are no lines that cross cracks in the concrete, each zone has its own manifold and we pipe the hot water to each manifold via under concrete pvc pipes. I'd also go with larger feed lines to the manifolds than I did, mine are only inch pex, we may very well end up putting two inch pex to feed the shop with hot water. As for wet sand to use as a base material, I'd never consider that unless you had Styrofoam over it and a vapor barrier on top of that, I also put drainage lines under the base material to wick off excess moisture, not allow it to stay there, all the studies I've ever read, say moisture on any insulation lowers its R value not increases it. I also left a gap between the wall and the floor, as a buffer space, so if I were to ever have problems or needed to put in a waterline from outside, I'd never have to touch my floor portion with the infloor heat in it, its also a temper zone space to keep the hot water from the cold walls, there are two spacer boards, expansion joints, one between the outside wall and spacer floor and the next between the spacer floor and the shop floor, that space is about a foot wide and I'd do it again the next time.
I also left a gap between the wall and the floor, as a buffer space, so if I were to ever have problems or needed to put in a waterline from outside, I'd never have to touch my floor portion with the infloor heat in it, its also a temper zone space to keep the hot water from the cold walls, there are two spacer boards, expansion joints, one between the outside wall and spacer floor and the next between the spacer floor and the shop floor, that space is about a foot wide and I'd do it again the next time.[/QUOTE] Would u have a picture of how u did that. Really good idea. Gonna have ta do something like that.
Daro, I'm not sure if I have pictures of doing that while we were remodeling or not, I'll have to go back and look. Mine was completely different than most, we did a remodel of an existing building, not something I'd do again or recommend unless you really love what you have on hand, it just adds so many challenges and costs I'm not sure its worth it, one being concrete removal of the old and to reinstall new. In order to achieve that, we needed to be able to use a striker board to level the concrete as we poured, there are a couple ways to do it, one being set up the forms a foot from the old wall, and do the pour, pull the forms and then go back and fill in the gap, which is what we did. The other issue we had was an existing concrete block wall to deal with, both as a construction standpoint and the strengthen it, and then insulate it, so we ended up with foot thick walls to do both at once, the foot gap is under the now enclosed walls. But we ran two years before we got it all done, and those two years we decided to do it again or over the next time, we'd still leave the gap next to all outside walls, but we didn't in front of any of the doors. We hashed over the water issue more than anything else. I wanted to be able to put antifreeze in the floor piping and shut down the shop for a winter at a time if need be in the future, and in order to do that we'd need frost free hydrants, which could easily be able to be hooked up, there is a buried water line now just outside the north wall, water came into this building in the past anyhow, pipe it under the wall and hook up frost free hydrants in the wall cavity and cut an opening to get at them, pretty cheap and simple. In the end we ran water into the office, hooked a manifold there to pipe water into the shop, all lines are set on a slope with a drain on one end and shut off in the office, all I'd have to do is heat the office and shut down the shop for a winter.
My concrete guys have poured a lot of shops, but never one as big as ours. They plan on doing at least three pours, and using a belt truck. My question is, the heat guys want to run all the heat tubes at one time. How do you form a separate area with the heat piping in place? We are going to have propane boiler, and shop will have three zones. I know you can run pipes to each zone. I suppose you bring them up so they can connect to the manifold?
Yup. You turn the ends of the lines up to go to a manifold. I might be tempted to run some PVC sleeve or conduit so the lines to the two remote zones were serviceable, maybe with a box in the floor at the end of the conduit so if you ever needed to you could cut the line and replace the feeders at least? Maybe overthinking it.
Around here they call them sweeps or electrical conduit that curves into a 90 degree bend, we run the waterlines in them while in the concrete layer and they stick up above the floor, this somewhat protects the water lines from accidental shearing off or mice chewing on them at the floor level. A telebelt is a great machine to use to move concrete, we used one to pour my service pit walls since a pumper truck couldn't get inside the building. If you bring the zones up into a common manifold and a line springs a leak, there is no way to jack hammer out one loop without damaging the rest of them. I ran two loops per manifold and used five manifolds in all for my shop, that way if a loop leaks, I only have to jack hammer out two loops worth of concrete, not a third or half the building or live without that portion of the shop floor being heated. I also know of a couple guys who laid pvc pipes under the base material beforehand and as a backup heat source, the use forced air heat piped into the pvc and it comes up at floor level and works great, wish I'd have done this for a backup heat option as well, but saw it after my shop was done.
well Guys I am getting some time to send some pics of the new shop , we frame it last fall and now if I can get the time to finsh it but work keeps getting in the way. It turn out reall nice and it only took three day to frame it , but when you call in some framer freinds that do this ever day it don't take long. wiring is all past now so the inslulation can begin. Took me and my wife three days to install the door ,its 18' wide and 16' high. I have 19' 2" to the ceiling.
here is pics of the construction of it the JCB was A life saver
I told a friend to put the insulation below the floor but I was over ruled by the guy doing the cement floor says the weight of the truck would crack the floor using it under. I would like to know the order in which you prepped the floor for the cement .
Structural foam. About twice the cost of normal insulation. Now required by code on floating slab buildings in Minnesota heated or not. We have even put it under a loading dock unheated slabs and have had no issue with frost heave or cracking at all. If going with floor radient heat current recommendations are to keep the heating tubes in the top 1/3 of the slab.
hey Cat 320 The way I did my floor was I took out about 24" of soil and work up to 12" with starting with 6" 3/4 crush limestone and then 6" 5/8 stone and compacted it for about a day. My outside of my floating slab is 18" deep, 24 " at the base and then comes up on a 30degree . I installed 6 mil poly and then 2" PINK stryfoam over the whole area right to the outside footing boards. I installed 3/4 rebar every 18" ,making a L style at the footing , this L also come up into the foxblock for the concrete wall. I lay 4" square mesh down tie it to the rebar and the meah is what my heating pipe where fasten to. I round my heat pipes every 6" from the inside wall out 2ft and the 12" from then on . I did the the pad and the walls in the fall of 2014 and it got so wet up here that we had to stop for the winter. I was worry about the pad being out there all winter and we had a very cold winter that yr. But come spring there was not a crack in that pad. So we did the building in the fall of 2015 and we are working on it as we get time and cash. If there is any thing else you what to know shot me a line. Dave