Butler Brothers Logging of Sooke/Victoria B.C. built some unique trucks in the 60's and 70's. Claude and Wally Butler wanted to maximize load capacity and went with a cab-under-load design. The evolution of the design began in 1960 and culminated with the Mark 5 in 1974. I've been researching these trucks and its been both interesting and puzzling at times since little remains of either the trucks or their history. What I have gathered together are a few photos, some fading memories and some attempts to decipher where and when and how many of these rigs actually existed. My original intent was to gather information for building a model of the Mark 5. That model has yet to happen but in the process of finding details and plans of that truck I found that precious little was preserved of the others. Now it has become a bit of a personal quest to put the history of the Butler Brothers logging trucks down in some form of permanent record, a cradle to grave story of each of them. So, I will relay what I have learned to date and share some of the photos I have discovered. I am still researching and will be trying to get some first hand memories from those who worked around them but for now most of what I present is an outline of the history. If you have further information please add it. If you find errors in my accounts, please correct them. I am not a trucker or an equipment operator so some of my information or references to parts etc. will not be entirely accurate. OK, here's the starting point: 1960. Claude Butler wanted something radically different from the logging trucks of the day. He and good friend Basil (Barney) Oldfield designed and built the first of four unique trucks. As best i can tell from photos, this truck (the first of 3 #70 trucks) used Mack axles and rear ends, and ran on dual 1200 tires on all wheels. It had a rigid log bunk frame with an articulated tandem axle power bogie under each end. This was effectively an articulated 8x8. The cab sat beside the engine, both of which hung out over the front power bogie. The engine was a Jimmy - not sure what size - and it drove a shaft back to a central gearbox midships under the rigid log bunk frame. This then distributed power to the front and rear power bogies. This was a small truck compared to the Mark 5 but was the beginning. Roll-out appears to have been in 1960-61 but little has come to light about this truck and what happened to it. My best guess at this point was that it ran until the #36 and second #70 came on line, both of which were substantially larger and approached the load capacity of 100 tons that Claude and Wally were shooting for. I'll post some shots of the first truck as soon as i figure out how to do it. More to follow, Cheers.
Here's a decent color shot of the Mark 5 I've had for awhile. Not sure of year or location......? I have alot of old black & white pics of this rig but will require much scanning
Here are some shots of the first truck in 1961. These came from Barney Oldfield's files and they are the earliest ones I've found. The fellow on the cab step in the B&W roll-out shot is Barney. The shop behind him is still there and in good shape. Someone with a good eye may be able to tell me the model of Jimmy (I'm assuming its a Jimmy from the colour) in the right hand view. Not really sure but perhaps its a 6-71? This first truck really had not taken on the low profile cab-under-load configuration of the later trucks but did allow for some load above the cab. Next up, the #36 truck of 1964. Cheers.
The twin stacks are a clue but it appears to be a V12-71 Detroit.I don't see it as an inline engine from what I can see,good pics all.Ron G
Thanks Ron G. I should have picked up on the twin stacks, I just didn't look close enough. The 12V-71 makes sense as that model was reportedly also used in a susequent truck. In hindsight, the load would warrant the engine size.
Truckmodeler, This is great--heard you made contact with Larry Great Maybe we can all pool our pics of some of this off the wall stuff and show everybody what we once had here!!!! Lots of one of stuff
Ron has it pegged. 12V-71 non turbo. I think the Mark 5 has a turboed version, but I'm not sure. It's enough bigger to need it. Great thread. I am looking forward to learning more about these unique rigs.
Actually the Mark 5 was designed from the outset to use a 16V-71T1 initially rated at 800 bhp. I've chatted to the designer of that truck several times and he said they had planned to get it up to 1000 bhp. Whether it ever was done I don't know. After the first truck, Claude Butler and Wally Butler wanted to go bigger and were aiming for a 100 ton payload. They stuck with the articulated design but this time built a much larger truck - the #36. This appears to be the second most photographed truck of the 4, next to the Mark 5. The #36 was built in about 1963-64. I have found an old Butler Tire ad from November 1964 showing the #36 in operation. It was built in an old hangar at the Victoria airport. While I don't know who actually designed it, there is reason to speculate that Claude Butler and Barney Oldfield combined talents again. Both were avid pilots and connected to the airport. One of the photos below shows the #36 on roll-out with Basil Oldfield's famous 'Spirit of Tomorrow' aerodynamic car in front of it. The hangar in the background is still standing and I have a confirmation by a fellow who used to know Oldfield that he was somehow involved. The #36 utilized the same rigid frame with articulated power bogies under each end. Tires were now 1600's and they ran on planetary axles. The cab, and the whole truck, sat a little lower. I've heard from one of the Butler family that the engine was a 12V-71, just like the first truck. The whole truck was wider and longer and was the first to be dubbed 'the roller skate'. I don't know for sure but I think the bunks were 15 or 16 feet across. I'm hoping to chat with some guys who loaded and dumped these trucks this fall so I'll find out more then. In talking with Andy Byrne, it sounds like this is the truck he ended up with prior to getting the Mark 5. Not sure how long he used it but in the end he used the axles for re-building a couple of Kenworth 849's. I'm still hoping to get some further info on this truck but I'm thinking that it went to Bryne in the early 70's. Next up, the second #70.
The third truck has been a definite challenge in researching. One of my early discoveries was an article from 1974 in a local community newspaper written at the time of the roll-out of the Mark 5. In that article, which involved an interview with Claude Butler, a reference was made to "two trucks built in a Hangar at the Victoria airport". These were both prior to the Mark 5 but there were no other references to a second 'sister' truck to the #36. My interviews with the designer of the Mark 5 yielded another clue - they had cut up one of the earlier trucks in the Butler yard during the Mark 5 years. It wasn't the first one and the #36 had gone to Andy Byrne. In the end, I discovered a third truck had in fact been built, more powerful than the #36 and while little information has come to light on this I did find some photos. Then, in a recent interview with a member of the Butler family, he instantly referred to the third truck as "the second #70" and offered this information: - it was built in the airport hangar - it used standard axles and 1600 tires - it had a 16V-71 (not sure if it had turbo) - it was slightly bigger than the 36 - it was designed to carry the original goal of 100 tons - it was designed to haul a pup with 100 tons on that - it was built not too long after the #36 (he could not specify a date) When the Mark 5 designer told me they cut one up, it was because the frame was twisted and cracked beyond any repairs. One look at the photo below with the pup and its no wonder. What has also confused the history here is that, to the casual observer, the second #70 looks very similar to the #36. However, there are distinct differences - the cab protector, the bunk stakes, the frame mounted tanks, the wheels. The faded colour shots of this truck are from the Oldfield collection and from this and the similarity with #36 I am surmising that Barney Oldfield was still somehow connected to the design or build of this truck. As to the final end of this truck, I am assuming that the designer of the Mark 5 was referring to it when he said they cut one up, its the only one it could be. Another Butler employee of that time refers to the cutting up of the Mark 5 in the yard but that has to be a case of mistaken identity since the Mark 5 is resting in Andy Bryne's yard at this time. However, that former employee adds a small bit of information that is relevant -the truck that was cut up had "two 8-71's bolted together" which may very well be referring to the 16V71 that I referred to earlier. That would have most likely been in the late 70's or early 80's, while both men were working for Butlers on their concrete truck fleet. OK, there is only one to go - the Mark 5. They pulled out all the stops on that one. Paraphrasing the designer - 'I told Claude if he wanted a big log truck we should build the biggest we can with the biggest drive train components we can get our hands on'. Something like that. More soon.
What a great thread, and full of history. Thank you for doing all this research! Sorry if I screwed up your rhythm and/or sequence here by posting that color shot too early, I didnt realize you were going from start to finish. Wish I'd have held it to until the end. Anyway, thanks again- much here I didn't know!
Just a quick note: TRUCKING magazine's Summer 2010 issue has an excellent article on the Butler Brother logging trucks. Back issues are still available from: http://www.myfavouritemagazines.co.uk/cars-motors/trucking-magazine-back-issues/ and for an extremely reasonable price. It's probably easier to Google: Butler Brothers Mark 5 than to type in the above. Hope this helps.
CL, all photos of these trucks are totally welcome. I'm hoping this thread will lead to some discoveries of information and photos that are hiding in memories and old boxes. I must say that my hat is off to you for all the great photos you have posted, I've spent many hours going over them time and time again. Fortunately for all of us interested in this stuff there are people, like yourself, who take the time to photograph stuff that many would just pass by. Its so true that the 'commonplace stuff' of the present will often become the 'fascinating and rare, old stuff' in future years. It would appear that one of the best mottos might well be 'never leave home without a camera'. Many Thanks for carrying that camera and documenting stuff that otherwise would have been or soon will be lost to history. Regards.
Very interesting truck. The first model they built is kinda Payhauler like.
Truckmodeler; Thanks for sharing your great information and pictures. I'm hoping this thread will see some new photos and information that may complete the history of The Butler trucks. Sorry I don't have any pics. Keep up your great work. FYI Truckmodeler; this site got a model thread as well.
great machine.
The last Butler truck was the Mark 5, built in 1973-74. Since the building of the third truck, several things had happened that contributed to the design of the Mark 5. First, a new regulation put forward in the late 1960's meant that auxilary power or manual means of steering had to be available for trucks if the main engine failed. Since the articulated design of the first 3 trucks required massive power for steering, the steering was powered from the main engine. Manual or auxilary power steering was simply not feasible with the articulated design of the earlier trucks and so something had to change. Second, the drive line components had steadily increased in size and load capacity making the 100 ton load goal far more realistic. Third, a new designer came aboard at Butlers. Cliff Burrows had spent some time working at Canadian Kenworth and knew truck design. Fourth, Claude was now looking beyond the 'building our own trucks' idea and was now thinking more of building a truck which had applications in other industries - mining work for instance. As well, he was looking more at building a prototype for a truck that could be manufactured and sold to the west coast logging industry rather than being just a Butler struck. Fifth, in the early 1970's the federal Government was putting up funds for industrial technology development in the effort to spur on the manufacturing sector. They would grant upwards of 50% of the required funding for approved projects. Since the steering problem was critical, the new design used a twin-steer unpowered front end and a massive twin Clark 121,000 planetary axles rear bogie. The new components were now heavy enough to take the 100 ton load and not require power bogies front and rear. The rear axles were driven from a Detroit 16v71-T1 through an Allison transmission. Rear ends and transmission were, at the time, the largest models made by the respective firms. The front axles were Darts from haul trucks and mine loaders. Each front axle reportedly weighed 5200 lbs and had a load rating of 25 tons. All in, the load capacity of the 4 axles was in excess of 100 tons. As Cliff Burrows told me, it was the first truck of the four that was specifically rated at more than the 100 ton goal. With the twin steer system, a much smaller auxilary steering system was required in event of a main engine failure. This aux system was simply engaged by a switch in the cab, as far as I've found out. The new drive line also meant that there was no longer a need for dual tires all around. Thus the rear drive axles sported 1600x25 tires but to carry the load the four front single tires were now 1800x33, over 6 feet in diameter. According to my research so far, Cliff's experience and Claude's willingness to accept design input from drivers etc. led to a much different truck than the earlier ones. The engine was now much more accessible by means of the cab protector hinging back exposing the entire engine and systems. The cab was air-mounted for comfort. The cab was much more comfortably designed and built when compared to the earlier trucks. The water tank was originally on the side of the main frame but was moved to underneath the rear of the frame fairly early on, a point that I understand came from the drivers in the field. Some other spec's are: bunks - 15 or 16 feet (various accounts on this) stakes - 8 feet high main frame - 9 inch channel with huge gusset plates holding the engine and cab assembly overall length - 42 feet, 80 feet with pup trailer pup trailer - Manufactured to Butler design by Columbia Trailers, 1600x25 tires The Mark 5 rolled out of the Butler shops in 1974 and even getting it to the logging grounds was a chore. It had to be barged to Cowichan Bay then put on railroad flatcars to get it to Lake Cowichan. From there it drove the logging roads to Sooke. All this because it was just to big and heavy for the public roads. Its working life for Butlers was relatively short. An early post in this thread shows the truck up for sale with only 2 years of work under its belt. I'm not sure just how long it did work for Butlers but they actually painted it in M&B colours for a test period with M&B. The story I heard was that M&B was fairly interested at one point but declined to purchase after their testing period. Most likely because it was effectively an orphaned monster and not easily adapted into an existing fleet. While I don't yet have a timeline, it was eventually sold to Andy Byrne and its still there, minus the rear axles and in need of some very serious restoration work - anyone up for a wee bit of a challenge???? In one of my earlier posts, I said that Butlers liked the number 70. Well, up until a few months back, I had assumed the mark 5 never wore a number. I certainly never saw a photo of her wearing one. Then an old friend of mine sent me a photo he took back in the 1970's and lo and behold - the Mark 5 was the third #70!!! Anyway, I have some other things I'll mention next post and round up some more photos. For now, I've got a few shots of her in her prime. Cheers.
Having been around railroad operations from a young age, to me in the photo looking down from above this thing looks an awful lot like a 'skeleton' log car! Never even made that connection with these trucks until now, but wow, there it is. Kind of a self-propelled overland skeleton log car..... Enough of my blathering. Awesome thread and thanks again for sharing your knowledge with those of us who are ever-curious like I am!
Once again I'm blown away by the knowledge some of you guys have. Awesome!! I remember the "roller skate" from my days in Jordan River and Port Renfrew, 1975-1987. I think we (BCFP) tried it out a bit as I recall it in the line-up for a short period at Renfrew. Pretty skookum truck for sure but that 100 ton mark they aimed at was quite routinely accomplished by P-16's and HDX's at Gold River in the '60's. We weighed every load that came off a truck down at the dump (run by "Liquid" Larry) and while not all were 100 tons I recall many that were. All old growth back then and we ran 14' bunks, so you could carry quite a whack. Geeze I wish I'd thought to take photo's back then, but it was just all part and parcel of what was normal work in the industry. Never seemed like anything special.......just a job. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your pics and knowledge with us. Much appreciated. Take care.
I've wondered about the goal of 100 tons being something that was being accomplished by other trucks - P16 and HDX. Seems it wasn't that lofty a goal by the time the Mark 5 rolled out. One of the other claims made by Claude Butler was that it provided a "stump to dump" load of 200 tons with pup when other rigs were having to gang up at a mid-point to make the same payload at the dump. I have no idea, since I've never been in the industry, whether this really was a major selling point or not. Perhaps others could offer opinions or knowledge on that point. However, one of the things I found rather fascinating about this design after studying photos and plans was the seemingly 'all-terrain' style suspension they built into it. The designer claimed they wanted rough terrain capability, not just off-highway capability. To this end they put the truck through some testing in the Butler Gravel pit in Saanichton before it left the yard. The photos (from the designer's collection) included here show some of the range of motion of the axles they designed. I have no idea how this compares to Hayes and Pacific trucks of the day. Regardless, when one considers that those front tires are over 6 feet in diameter, I find it impressive that this is approaching all-terrain suspension. I cannot see the design of the earlier articulated trucks allowing for that much motion in the suspension. I'm not sure when Butlers began 'touring' the Mark 5 looking for a sale. As far as I know it worked in Sooke, Port Renfrew and Menzies Bay. I'm sure there are other places as well but these are the ones I've come across so far. Anyone who saw this working in another location please add it to the list. In the end, it was sold to Andy Byrne. Cliff Burrows remembers putting it on a barge for the trip north - I'm still looking to find out what year that was. I also believe that before it went to Andy it was repainted in the Butler colours but i don't know for sure. Interestingly enough, while it was painted in M&B colours for awhile, I believe it still wore the Butlers Logo, at least in one of the photos I've seen it did. I guess since it was still 'on loan pending purchase' it was still technically a Butler truck. Early in its life, the mark 5 was the subject of a marketing brochure. In that there is an artists rendering of it in the roll of a mine haul truck with hopper and hopper pup. The story goes that there was a possible deal in the works to sell a few of them to a mine in Chile. The deal was supposedly nearing the approval stage when a military coup in Chile put an end to the entire deal. So, for a brief moment, Claude Butler's dream of manufacturing and selling more of the mark 5 was almost a reality. At this point i have not found any reference to any other interested purchasers, logging or otherwise, except for some quotes in which Claude indicates there was interest from as far away as Australia and the oil fields of the Middle East. So, for now, that's it. I'm looking to chatting with some former Butler people and trying to fill in the blanks on all of the trucks. Much like so many other pieces of equipment -to many people they were just trucks doing their job. Now, little remains of any of them and the history is fading. Hopefully this thread will find some long lost photos and/or experiences that add to the story. Cheers.
WOW!!!!!! I just read this entire thread and all I can say is WOW!!!! What a truck and what a story. Thank you to all who have contributed. This is very interesting and I will continue to watch as this thread grows. Steve
here is a link to the artical online http://www.truckingmag.co.uk/2010/06/25/logger-heads/
Thanks Dirt! Very cool article on an unbelievable truck.
Those are some odd designs but they all look like very stout trucks. I would love to see these trucks in person.
Cool stuff! Now we just need some pics of old Meth Martin driving his Mk.V!
Butler Loggers Really enjoying this thread. Appreciate your efforts truckmodeler!!!
Hey TL, I think Meth Martin got run over by an HDX! Too bad Methy was spinnin' a yarn. Would have been something to see any one of those old 'roller skates' all fixed up and running. Well, at least we know for sure where the real Mk. 5 is.
Good riddance! Too bad we couldn't see the Andy Byrne truck today. Any plans for pics?
Hey TL, at this point i think the only way I'll get photos of the Mk. 5 up at Andy's is to head there myself. Chatted to him a while back and I had hoped to get there in the fall but work and other stuff prevailed. Maybe in the spring. He says he might have some shots of the older one in service as well. I'm assuming it was the old #36 since he salvaged the axles for a couple of KW's. Heck, one set might even be under that big KW of Andy's on the Kenworth thread. Meanwhile, if anyone closer can get some shots form Andy's yard of the Mk. 5that would be awesome.
Hey, Peter, Spring has nearly sprung, I hope you're almost ready to make a trip to Andy's yard!
Trakloader This thread could get real interesting very soon
Oh? Did someone get a picture of Meth Martin in #5?
Amazing stuff. I really enjoy how resourseful guy in the timber biz are.. Seems like A group always willing to put new ideas into iron,quickly!!!!
Butler Bros Truck Today Taken today at Andy's yard
WOW!!!! That things is really A monster!
Wow, that should be in a museum! Is there much of it left - could it be salvaged and brought back to its former glory?
Scott, with lots of money and time anything is possible
I would love to see that thing in a museum some where.
Very good artical to read and what a truck !
old thing is pretty boned out now. see on the door it said Butler Bros. Logging on it still. Also found the cab from the earlier truck that Andy got, not much but memories now.
Huh. You would think Meth Martin would have taken it for parts.
Hello all... I'm new to the forum,but it looks really interesting on here! I build lots of 1/87 scale logging models and I'm interested in the trucks pictured above.I can't really see how the articulation joint worked on these trucks. Does anyone have a drawing,or can they explain how it worked? I really want to build a working model,but it's unclear from the photos how it functioned....Any help would be greatly appreciated...Dennis Raper-Alabama
http://www.spiritoftomorrow.com/
The trucks that Basil built. Hello gentlemen. I am the husband of Basil Oldfield's niece and the keeper of all historical family things. I care for the www.spiritoftomorrow website and it was nice to see it posted on your forum. Some of the pictures that Peter has posted has come from our family archives. I have two requests. 1- Could I get permission from those who have posted pictures here to add them to my website? 2- Where in the heck is #36 located? I would give my left plumb to see this piece of equipment before I pass. Thanks to you all for the great interest that you have.
Its good to see this thread reactivated There is NO REASON why she cant be saved This old girl did what she was built for and that was to HAUL LOGS I have not been over to see her for some years but she still sits waiting. I have see worse trucks brought back (Vic Laughlins Baldwin Hayes) was every bit as tough shape and look what he did to her and another was Omer Pelletiers old JS Brock truck Man Built her Man left her to the elements so why cant MAN RESTORE HER I am not saying she has to run again but why not fix her up as a "GATE GUARD" Give it some thought before its too late!!!
Thanks to 69hayes for the super speedy permission to use the pictures on my web page. I will have them up as soon as I can.
man what a awesome truck, how old is that truck, what was the h/p?
I find this thread very interesting. I'm sure with there goal to haul these kind of loads they must have also been in the logging business if so what's there story.
kw60 Butler Brothers were in the logging industry, as well as the concrete and gravel industry (which they still operate to this day) For a while (in the late 50's and early 60's) they were also into the retail television sales market.
Just to let you good folks here know, because of today's interaction (and I thank you for that) the traffic at www.spiritoftomorrow.com hit an all time high of triple of a normal day's traffic. I have had some fantastic emails today from some of this forum's members. Please let me know if there is any information that I can provide you. My next addition to the website is to display the 1,600 square foot house that "spins on it's axis" that Basil Oldfield built .....and is still in the family's care. Please keep the logging truck info coming.
awesome!!! love the pics
I stopped at Menzies Bay on time to have a look at the monster. That would have been in the late 70's. It was big. If I remember correctly there were a few reasons why it never made it to production. I heard that it was hard on drivers, sitting infront of the steer wheels and so low to the ground your visibility was not that good and when you went around a switchback and were hanging right over the edge of the road it was a bit unnerving, and the second reason was the gross weight of the truck and trailer loaded was causing issues with the roads and bridges. Not sure if this was true, they have hauled double loads before, just not sure if as big as what this monster could carry. Too bad my father passed away, he could have filled in a few blanks here
Its good to see this thread active again. Here is a bit of a summary of the info I've gathered on these trucks. Some of it is unfortunately a bit of guesswork and assumption but i think most of it is fairly correct. There were, to the best of my knowledge, 4 trucks built. They were the following: 1/ the first #70, build date approx. 1960. Mack standard axle running gear, 1400 tires, DD 12v71 engine, all 4 axles powered, articulated in the center with a large transfer box supplying power to the front and rear bogies. This one was built by Basil (Barney) Oldfield in his shop on West Saanich road. The shop is still there, looking much the same as it did over 50 years ago. The final disposition of this truck is currently unknown. It did not, again to my knowledge, tow a pup and was smaller than the other 3 trucks to follow. 2/ the #36, build date approx. 1964. Drivetrain consisted of planetary axles, 1600 tires, probably DD 16v71 (I've heard it may have been a 12v71 as well), all axles powered, articulated in the center much like the first truck. This truck was built, again a bit of guesswork here, by Basil Oldfield and Butler Brothers in a hanger at the Victoria Airport. On Spirit's Website you can see the truck outside a large building with FAIREY AVIATION written on the side. This was most likely the roll-out photo-shoot. This truck was probably the longest surviving one, well into the '70's. It towed a pup trailer later in its life. In the mid-70's it received a front end and cab almost identical to the later Mark 5, which changed the look of it a great deal. It was with that cab that it ended its days. It was sold by Butlers and after working on the island for a short time it ended up on the mainland coast. It is pretty much down to the cab and some of the bunk structure and turntables for the axles being all that is left. Reportedly, the axles went under some re-built Kenworths. 3/ The second #70, build date approx. 1967-8. This truck was similar in appearance to the #36 and was also reportedly built in the hangar at the airport by Oldfield and Butlers. Although similar to the 36 it had straight axles and some different details around the cab protector and cab area. Like its "sister" it towed a pup and was worked hard for about 8 years at the Butler operations in Sooke. It was cut up by Butlers at their machine shop in the mid-70's, reportedly with a cracked and twisted frame that was not repairable. It was used as a bit of a study model for the building of the last truck - the Mark 5. 4/ The Mark 5 (also given the number '70'), build date 1974. This was the final and biggest, very different from the other three. Due to changes in regulations and also technological advances in drive components, Butlers built this one with a rigid frame and twin steer front axles. It was built by a team of Butlers people, it was designed from the outset to max out the design. It was built in the old Butler Brothers machine shop - which unfortunately was recently knocked down to make way for a housing development. Story goes that the build team knew some of the local constabulary and when it came time for a test drive they made a phone call and promptly got an escort. Not like today where you'd have to get permission from 30 levels of mindless bureaucracy before you could apply for a permit to apply for an escort! Specs were: DD16V71TI engine (750 hp), Dart front axles, Allison trans, Clark BD121000 rear axles, 1800 tires on the front, 1600 on the rears (the difference in tire size was due to the load rating required). It was designed from the outset to haul over 100 tons and tow a trailer loaded with 100 tons as well. The custom designed trailer was built by Columbia Trailer and had 1600 size tires. The Mark 5 is the one most often referred to as the largest logging truck ever built. It is also the one that many saw in MacBlo colours for awhile in the late 70's. It was built as a pilot project for a new breed of hauling truck with some consideration given to marketing it to the mining industry. Unfortunately, the plans for producing more of them never panned out. It was eventually sold to the same operator that had purchased the #36. It now sits (as seen in the photos on this site) in a boneyard on the mainland coast. The front axles are still there but the rears, the engine and much of the other drivetrain has been long ago parted out. While all of these trucks share a common shape, they are all quite different from each other. Over the years because of this similar shape, some confusion has developed about what truck went where and which one had this or that. I hope most of the info I've given above is accurate but as I've found in the last couple of years delving into this - there's always another wrinkle to the story. Thanks to Spirit and others for the loan of photos and info to try to get this story down. I'm still trying to get a more accurate picture of the life of each of these trucks and in time i will update this story.
Truckmodeler Even though the rear diffs and housings are gone why could somebody not set an old set of chain drive bogies with 1400 X24 tires under her to sit her level again. These were all over the place after all the old M26 Tank retriever converted Madill towers were cut up! At least its a thought After all it only has to hold up the back end Talk nice to me I have a complete set It was just a thought
Sounds good to me. Just need to get her out of the bush and back home to the island. As you mentioned in an earlier post she is still restorable, excellent restorations have been done with much less to start with. Hopefully she can be acquired and transported. Wonder if any of the guys up your way have gone any further with that. See you at the 90th!
Thank you so much for all the work you've put into the research of these trucks. And even more so, for sharing it with all of us. I can remember seeing a picture in a library book years ago of the Mark 5, and being in awe. Now I finally have a bit of an understanding of what the truck really was.
Hi Alco, glad to share the history. Much like you, I was in awe the first time I saw one of these. I was a kid watching the Victoria Day Parade and this absolute monster truck, something I'd never seen before, came down the street. Its one thing to have seen these in the bush or around other heavy equipment but when its following a marching band of highschoolers down a city street its a whole diferent story. And me being about 11 or 12 at the time made it seem even bigger. Sadly, I didn't have a camera with me nor did my parents but I always remembered that image. Its a very faded image now and I have never been able to figure out which one of the 4 it was (I think it was #36 or the second #70) but its what eventually spurred me to track the history.
My hat is off to you, Truckmodeler! If not for you bringing all the research together the world might never have known the full story. And hey, restoring that one for display is a great idea! And you could park it beside Meth Martin's truck for a photo, too, lol! I sure would love to see the remains of that one preserved.
Thanks for all the photo's and info.Very obscure line of trucks.Full steam ahead on the resto!!
I'm also impressed. Being a mining man and with now knowledge of the logging industry the Bulter Mk5 looks to the the perfect solution to moving large loads of timber when compared to what are basically beefed up on-highway trucks that appear to be "industry-standard" for logging companies. Having read the thread from page 1 I'm amazed that nobody has commented on how the low centre of gravity of the Butler design should, theoretically anyway, produce a truck that is far more stable than a conventional truck on logging roads.
I have really enjoyed following this thread. While browsing the web the other day, I came accross this picture and thought it shared a lot in common with the Butler trucks. Does anyone here know which came first, Butlers trucks, or the Foremost predecessors to what is seen here?
Kind of looks like the middle east...
These pictures were taken June 1962 i'm assuming the place is Port Renfrew . The family moved from Port Renfrew to Caycuse in 1962 , not sure what month the move took place so pictures maybe Caycuse but most likey Renfrew.I love the rig they made up to help push the load off .If anyone recognizes the sort please let me know so i can name my slides right . Enjoy
I have now digitized the origional drawings of # 70. they were done by Barny Oldfield and Initialed by Claude Butler 1960. The 8mm movie film has allso been digitized and is now on a CD. The movies are ** the frame and axles runninig up on blocks with no tires on the axles. The bogies are turning and the drums are turning. Some footage of the truck hauling at Sooke.
#70 drawings 1960 need e-mail address to send them?? Gary need e-mail address to send drawings
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Waiting. Hi Garry. Can't wait to see the movie. Thanks Doug.
My Dad brought this to my attention that these pictures were actually taken at Muir creek just prior to Malloch & Moseley's operation there. If you look closely in the back ground you can see Muir Creek bridge. Also if you compare these two pictures you can see a couple of the same unique tree's in both photo's(Just above the cat in the first picture and above 115's hood in the second). Reg
Your dad has a damn good eye RCP57 picking out the trees . That is great info to know the name of the sort ,I now have a couple more pictures with a name and a face .Thank your Dad for me
Haha, My Dad picked out the bridge and I picked out the trees... He also said that he knew it was Muir Creek because of the white box on the power pole. Appearently thats where the switch to turn the lights on in the dryland was back in the day.
. Shared photo of the mighty Butler truck,with its trailer behind.
Butler came long before the Foremost Magnum 4 pipe transporter. I believe these were designed & built for the trans Alaska pipeline. Ap40
To say you guy have and are doing a great job of keeping a unique and unusual piece of B.C. history alive is an under statement, thank you. If I may I would like to put my two bits in . I remember stopping at Butlers yard at Sooke to look at the first #70 I also recall a tale of how the first time they tried it out they had grief in the corners . When you apprpch a corner with a regular logging truck you back off the throatle , when they backed off the throatle with the #70 it didnt steer not enough hydrualic pressure , the driver had to gear down to keep the RPM up. Butlers also had a camp up Esperanza Inlet on the west coast of Vancouver Island , I heard one of Butlers trucks got wrecked up there. Ben Perice was the last driver of the Roller Skate at Sooke Div. Dave Farris who had a hauling contract with Mallach+Mosley at Nitinat bought one of the Roller Skates (he may have driven one at one time earlier for Butlers) he traded it to someone in Powell River for an 848 Kenworth . The Mark 5 was put to work at BCFP Renfrew Div. in 1979 it was used to haul scaled wood from Renfrew DLS to Caycuse DLS to supplement Caycuses log supply for Youbou . It pulled double loads two trips a day was very successful , When they tried using it in the woods the loaders found dealing with the exstra trailers a nucense so that didnt work at Renfrew . A nother short coming for the Mark 5 on a busy road was if you lined up the front bumper of an HDX Hayes or P16 Pacific they lined right up with the Mark 5s cab a lot of drivers stated they would not drive it for that reason. Don Caider was the last driver to drive the Mark 5 at Renfrew hes the reason it worked there I have pictures Ill post at a later date of the Mark 5 being partly disasemble to move it out of Renfrew .R.I.P. Don Calder and Dave Farris
very cool old trucks!!! seen one of those in some magazine at some point in time. these pictures are great!
Very nice old pictures of logging trucks here! Trucks are really good on lots of jobs especially in this kind of field.
Mark v bones pics from this summer, I thought it had a heavier frame for some reason.
Greatwestcam Thanks for the pic. Kinda sad to see someones dreams rusting away like that, when Butlers had their operation at Sooke they could direct their loaders to make the Roller Skate work . And they had a couple loaders in Ernie and Larry Jay and Timmy Goudie who were out standing at what they did with a log loaders . But when you take something like that truck some place else and hand it over to the crew ,sometimes change is hard to except . The Roller Skate had great posabilities , but is a bit of an odd ball that was never excepted anywheres else. And Butlers never got a chance to try it in a nother application.
Butler truck parked at Renfrew Div. 1980 1981 Truck being disasembered to be moved out of Renfrew Div. 1981 .
Great pictures!
Thanks RCP57 its my first pictures posted I'm haveing some size isuess I'm working on it . thats the last pictures of the Mark 5 in the early 1980s at Port Renfrew , I think it went from there to Powell River.
I've found that 640x426 works good for sizing pictures on this site. Keep posting! Reg
Thanks for the pics Camptramp. I was just telling one of the young lads at work about this truck the other day. I still think it was one of the coolest logging trucks I ever saw. Also love the 79 ford supercab, I had one. It was my favorite truck and the last year ford ever built a real truck LOL (that should get a response from someone )
Could be a '78, ya think? Didn't the '78 XLTs have square headlights while the rest of the '78s still had round?
Well, I was almost right. From Edmonds: "For 1978, the 300-c.i. inline six (114 horsepower) became the standard base engine and square headlights debuted (on all models except Custom). The luxurious Ranger Lariat was introduced that year as well as a new, more massive grille. 1979 brought square headlights for all F-Series trucks." Looks like the truck in the photo is an Explorer edition, or an XLT.
And, the 300-c.i. inline six was the best engine Ford made.
truckmodeller; 20 years ago while looking for a modeling project i saw a picture of a mark 5.0n a quest to aquire more info i visited the oldfield shop and obtained the drawings for the first truck.i then contacted and met with brian butler at his office at keating.he provieded me with a copy 0f their marketing brochure and newspaper clippings.a father in law told me he visited the madill shop to view a butler truck while being built.from their i was able to obtain the drawings.very much like the first truck.aside from pictures i was unable to get much info on the mark 5 so the project went on hold.i did not get much further than aquiring the 6 inch ashtray tires.while rethinking the project last wk i googled butler trucks and it seems my long sot info is here.after reviewing all the threads it does not look like i have anything to contribute but thanks for the info 20 years ago while looking for a project i saw a picture of a mark 5. while on a quest to aquire more info i aquired drawings of the first truck from the oldfield garage,met with brian butler at his office at keating and got a copy of the marketing brochure.i was told by my father in law one of butler trucks was built at madills and i believe i aquired all of the drawings ,about 20 pages very much like the one built at oldfields, i also have numorous newspaper clippings,i recall being disipointed that i could not get the information i felt i needed to comence building the mark 5. i did not get much further than acquiring 12 6 inch ashtray tires
I would agree, until the 4.6 reached its state of refinement from 2004 on. Even so, for a true, working pickup engine, the 4.9 still wins IMO.
Hi,There are a couple of guys around that worked on those trucks, Gary Moonie works at Foreman CNC in Sidney, he has video of a test run ( he was at one time trying to post it here) and the other is Cliff Burrows, he also worked for Kenworth. I think truckmodeler has met him. Thanks Doug 20 years ago while looking for a project i saw a picture of a mark 5. while on a quest to aquire more info i aquired drawings of the first truck from the oldfield garage,met with brian butler at his office at keating and got a copy of the marketing brochure.i was told by my father in law one of butler trucks was built at madills and i believe i aquired all of the drawings ,about 20 pages very much like the one built at oldfields, i also have numorous newspaper clippings,i recall being disipointed that i could not get the information i felt i needed to comence building the mark 5. i did not get much further than acquiring 12 6 inch ashtray tires[/QUOTE]
Mark 5 Mark 5 on the Weldwood mainline, Goat Lake, Powell River when Butlers were trying to sell it. Bob Miller driving it, photo by Rory Maitland. shared pic.
That is a great picture of the truck in its environment.
Don Yates photo's
A incredible pc of equipment..Its nice to know that its not a total memory and the basic truck still survives.....Cory
That must have taking some getting used too, driving down the road with your butt almost touching the ground.
I think the scareous thing about those trucks ,is that the front bumper on a P16 or HDX is about level with the steering wheel of the roller skate if you met in a tight spot.
Even has an air ride cab, does it not?
I drove #36 and repaired # 70. There was a 16V71 engine in both trucks, which is 2 8V71 on a common bedplate. #36 only blowered natural, #70 was inter cooled, after cooled & turboed and had big fuel injectors---Ron
WOW! These pictures sure bring back memories. I used to load this truck with wood bound for Caycuse from the dry land sort in Renfrew. Took forever to put a load on her specially when we were loading gang ( small hemlock or cedar). Don Calder was the driver of this truck when it roamed the logging roads there.
BC -- This is the Butler Brothers Truck at Dougan's Logging , probably Jackson Bay , picture belongs to Bob Cook .
That is a GREAT shot of a Butler Bros early rig! Home run, might just have to get a model going of this one sooner.. Ap40
camptramp It sure looks like the one and only MADILL Truck built. It was also in Jackson Bay That is where she met her end. It is the planetary rear ends that made me wonder.
HDX - good eye. Yes, i believe it is the Madill truck, the planetaries are the big giveaway. Also, a couple of other less obvious signs are the windshield - its rectangular instead of square (the first BB truck had a square one) and the front cab vent is horizontal instead of vertical. But it is a fantastic shot of a what seems to be a rarely photographed truck. Love the engine detail and overhead view. If anyone is interested, there is an excellent little book called "Flower Child logger" about the life of David Dougan of Dougan Brothers. There is a great shot of his brother Mike standing beside the Madill truck. He was the driver of that beast - at age 15. Not sure how you can find the book but I picked it up in Cobble Hill. Its written by his grandaughter Allison Hyatt. Great little read, interesting story.
Oooops, small mistake. Mike Dougan was Dave's son, not his brother.
Toby Hird has loaned me a couple of pictures to share ,so i'll put this picture closer to compare with later versions of Butlers Truck . I'm fairly certain this is the very first "Roller Skate" built.
This is #36 the second "Roller Skate" built it was surplus equipment after Butler Brothers sold their Sooke Logging Division to Pacific Logging . It was sold to Dave Fairris and Toby Hird who moved it to Caycuse where it worked for a short time for BCFP , it then sat at Caycuse for about a year before being sold to Andy Bryne of Powell River. For some reason the Butler Trucks were all #70 ,then this one was given the #36 at the logging divison. An interesting little information on this truck is that the V16 -71 Detroit engine was a one piece casting originally used in a marine application .
This is #70 the third Roller Skate built
This picture is of either the #36 or #70 its hard to tell the difference from a forward view.
Blk prince Butlers truck at shop at Sooke yard "HDX look at Happy Face""
Blk prince
Don Patrick better known around the shop as " Choo Choo" has lent use some of his pictures to share , the first being the Butler Bros. truck being loaded at the Marshalling Point at the old Renfrew camp in Decamber 1979
I saw one of these monsters in the M&B Menzies Bay maintenance yard in 1973. It was in M&B colours, and according to the maintenance supervisor the truck was being evaluated. I have pictures, but I have a lot of unsorted slides to go through. Sorry I can't add any more information. Bob
Butler Brothers " Roller Skate " in an All Sooke Day Parade
Just wanted to comment on this thread. The Butler Brothers were amazing in their innovative approach to logging truck design. I don't know how big their shop was, but the product was what you might expect from a large company. Did either of them have any formal engineering training, or was all of this more or less seat of the pants based on what components were available and experience?
I thought the Mark 5 would have a heavy solid frame not a flex frame, last time I was looking at it was surprised to see a regular looking truck frame. Guess it worked!
Sad state of affairs for such a magnificent beast.
I would give any thing to see a real one complete, is there a chance that there could be a survivor out some where?????
I don't have a clue. I suspect we would have heard about it by now. I'm thinking the Mark 5 carcass is as close as we will get, unfortunately.
That is what I thought after reading all topics for the second time, but I was hopeing that there could of been a chance that someone with deep pockets would want to try and start on this rebuild project. It was a great dream............
Hi, there are a couple guys here in Victoria that work on them, one was a designer, worked for KW and Western Star. The other works at a Sidney machine shop, has video from early test drives. He was going to try and post it here. He was telling about one driver that a piece rope tied to the bullboard by the drivers door, so he could swing away in an emergency. I believe they are members here as well. Butlers also had a aluminum car,can't remember what it was called but there is a site dedicated to it. Thanks Doug.
If your trying to post a video on one of these threads , you might check with timelapse , he may have the equipment and knowledge to do it .
Known as the Spirit of Tomorrow.
I remember hearing a story when I was a wee child about a fellow by the name of Barney Oldfield building an Aerodynamic car , I think the frame and chassis is a mid 1950's Ford . I remember seeing it in the Victoria May Day Parade .
Your mixing Barneys with the Bazels. Have a look at this web site to see how and where the so called Butler trucks evolved. I grew up fairly close to Oldfields shop and they always had something unusual going on. I also remember his revolving house as well as riding in the Spirit of Tomorrow. Hard to believe that was 55 years ago. http://www.spiritoftomorrow.com/
Thanks for the great information The Spirit of Tomorrow is a lot older than I was led to believe .
Unfortunately so am I.
I'm glad you still have your wits and can still point out the facts from long ago . Have a good day and many more .
Gordy I .
I believe Dave Hooper sent me these pictures of the last Butler's Truck rusting away some wheres around Powell River B.C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqVQfcvlTw
As I have said before it is nice to see the truck still more or less intact.The next time I have a spare 16V71 and a Allison lying around looking for a home I know were it will go.....
Pat Mac (Bob MacMillen) BCFP , An early picture of Butler Bros. Roller Skate , at Butler's Dump at Sooke B.C. , Straits of Juan De Fuca in back ground .
The design of the old International 50 ton Payhauler ,sure resembles these Butler trucks.
Bear Creek Reservoir, Sooke In the early '70's they drained the Bear Creek Reservoir near Sooke. We were contract falling the snags to clear the reservoir so water bombers could get access to the water supply. It was lunch time. We were at the bottom of the reservoir when the ground began to shake. Looking up I had never seen anything that big before or carrying that many logs. My boss told me she was a diesel electric with 22 foot bunks. The biggest logging truck in the world. I later pulled rigging for TW McKenzie at Lake Cowichan and the biggest truck on the lake belonged to Tod Palliser. It had 16' bunks and was strictly "off road". Tod was hauling logs from our side so I saw his truck daily. What I saw at Bear Creek Reservoir had 22 foot bunks and carried enough weight that the ground shook when she drove by.
Boulder Bill , This "Skate" Butler Brothers Log Truck was sold to Dave Farris & Toby Hird , who in turn sold it to a Powell River outfit ( Kip Brown comes to mind ) seen here parked in Caycuse in the late 1970's .
Someone who says they were one of the builders of the mark 5 is looking for the trucks whereabouts on the Sunshine Coast Craigslist.
I heard a "Rumor" awhile back that someone from the Butler Family was considering doing a Restoration of one of the "Skate's" Butler Truck . Check back on this Thread there are pictures of the remains of last one built in the Powell River area .
That would certainly be interesting if true..
Here is the cab from the forth truck built, Andy bought that one around 1979 and used the drive train to build two Kenworth 849f that he got from M&B boneyard, the one truck he did had a 16v-71 Detroit in it, drove that one a few times, had a long hood on it, air throttle, and 16:24 tires at first. There was a funny story with that 4th truck when Andy brought it to Powell River, they unloaded it of the barge in town at the Coast Ferries terminal and to get the truck turned south they drove it around the block by the Marine inn which has a steep grade next to it, when it pulled up the grade the trailer on the back rolled off and smash into the city tourist info building, lucky this all happened early in the morning before most people were at work. someone made a painting of the trailer stuck in the building with the driver trying to hide it that Andy has in his office.
I would think that Cab is off the Butler Truck parked at Caycuse in posting #135 .
That's how it looks to me, was off the truck with the articulated frame which looks like that one in #135.
Boulder Bill .
Mike Cross Butler Truck parked at Caycuse Camp .
Hi guys, I'm new on here, and putting together a write-up on the Butler trucks, for an automotive blog I'm on, as well as other BC-built trucks. Could I use some of the pictures and info that have been posted in this thread?
Your welcome to use anything I've posted on this site .
Thanks!
All most nothing left of the Butler truck - sadly it seems to me it is all most not possible to save and restore her
just getting that one out of the brush would be a task
Dave Whiskin Collection Butler Brothers last "Roller Skate" built parked on Gordon River M/L not far from BCFP Renfrew Div. camp
Dave Whiskin Collection Butler Brothers last built "Roller Skate" parked along Gordon River M/L not far from BCFP Renfrew Div. camp 1981 .
damn` go in and get the logs if you can`t get the logs bring the whole mountain
Wow! How wide of road and what kind of radius on the curves do you need to get that thing down a mountain side? That thing must be over 120' long when loaded.
Where is the butler truck now? I had heard when I volunteered at the Port Alberni Industrial heritage society a few years ago that it had been scrapped.
Just saw this on Instagram. Not my photo, don’t know anything about it other than it looks like it belongs here... someone had a bad day could’ve been worse though Trev.
Hi Everyone... I have interesting news. I was contacted two days ago on March 22, 2023 by a relative of the Butler Brothers named Mike Radcliff who advised me that the existing Claude Butler and Barney Oldfield truck design archives for the Butler Brothers Mark V will need to find a new home. Mike's mother is the sister to Brian Butler of the Butler Brothers family. Mike told me that the boxes of archives currently reside in an old building out on Keating Crossroads in Saanich which is slated to be demolished. He advised me that all the archives including the bones of #4 and #5 and the cab of #4 on Andy Bryne's property in Powell River are in play. Although there is virtually nothing left of the "skate frames" in Powell River, the original Mark IV cab may be salvageable. I saw a photo of the cab where it sits in a Powell River blackberry patch from 2019 and it looks pretty sad. I also heard that Andy Bryne's property in Powell River is being cleaned up and the reminnents of the skates frames are close to being sent to the scrappy. That said, Mike says Brian Butler is looking for someone or some historical society to preserve the history of what is left of the these amazing and innovative trucks. I understand that the Port Alberni Industrial Heritage Society was formally approached and has said they're not interested in preserving the archive. So I am reaching out on this forum for ideas and suggestions. This is specifically going out to Truckmodeler who started this forum and who I suspect still lives here on the Vancouver Island and may have some insights. Looking for ideas guys and I'll be watching this thread for replies.
How about the forestry centre in Duncan or the transportation mueseum in Cloverdale?
Both good suggestions. I will reach out to BC Forest Discovery Centre right away. Thx Doug1966.
Maybe the Sooke museum? They were used there.
That's great Doug1966. I have now contacted all three organizations. Good tips. We'll see if they see the value of preserving these truck archives. Thx again.
Hopefully the archive can be preserved. Doug1966 suggested all 3 of the top places. The Forest Museum would be my top pick if any parts of the actual trucks could be retrieved since they have the space. One other consideration for this might be the Saanich Historical Artifacts Society 'Heritage Acres'. Since all the trucks were effectively designed and built in Saanich by a long-time Saanich family the Historical Society might be interested.
Thx Truckmodeler... I will check Saanich Heritage Acres out as well. Makes sense.
Good luck! Hope you at least are able to go through the archive and save the interesting parts, as well as the cab and other salvageable remains!
The good news is that I have touched base with three organizations who wish to preserve the archives. In the meantime, the Butler family will take some time now to choose which organization to select. The difficult part as I see it will be getting the three Butler truck frames from Andy Byrnes property in Powell River back to the Island. I believe they were barged over to Powell River and being a tad over-sized were moved on public roads late at night. Well see how this plays out over the next few months. The photo below was on a social media thread and I though it needed to be on this page. MB Menzies Bay Butler Truck Trial Period
Had another look through this forum and discovered that I had missed that the above MB Menzies Bay photo had already been posted by camptramp on May 20, 2014 in Post #110. So kudos to camptramp for the original post of the photo!
Hi all My first post here but following this discussion regarding the archives for the Butler "skate" trucks. My grandfather, Fred Greenhalgh, was the head of the Butler shop and was personally involved in the construction of these trucks. also a good friend of Barney Oldfield and Claude Butler. I grew up often hearing stories of these massive trucks, so seeing these trucks or the archives disappear is sad news. Any update on the preservation of the archives? Are they still out at Keating?
Came across these two photos while viewing a Hillcrest Lumber Mesachie Lake photo album recently posted online by Nigel Robertson. I've seen many photos of #36 but this one caught my eye because the cab is different... it's got a sliding door on an extra long cab and the truck is labelled with SM-1. Got two photos here with one showing the truck from driver left-side and right-side from behind. I wonder if this truck came into Mesachie Lake by rail and was being off-loaded at Hillcrest Lumber for a demo somewhere in the area like Caycuse or Gordon River? It's a long way from home in Saanich for a proto-type testing. Anyone else seen this version of the "skate"?
I think this might be the truck built by Madill. They also tested it at Kelsey Bay. My Dad has a poor picture of it somewhere. In the background behind the log truck is a pickup with Madill on the door.
Gordon Franklin Collection
Saw some pics last week (on facebook) of the Butler Truck being pulled out of the weeds and loaded on a lowbed. It went back to the Island. It would appear it is sitting in Dane's shop..It will be interesting to see whats going to happen,
Maybe Port Alberni Heritage group got it to add to their collection.
Will be interesting to see what they do with it, happy to see it got saved!
Did some digging and found the face book pics.....
I saw on Facebook the truck is at Jenna Industries and the plan is to restore it.
Sure hope they can get it done, seen it in the trees south of Powell River a few years ago. In A Byrne Trucking Yard 2014. I am guessing the last of the Butler-Brother trucks.
It is now at Jenna Industries shop which is the old CZ shop in Courtenay. The frame has been stripped , sandblasted and is primed. The original engine has been procured but some major pieces are missing. It had 121 Clarkes which are becoming scarce and needs a 1800x33 inch front tire. It appears to have used Kenworth 850 spring saddles and trunnions front and rear which also must be found. The 8,000 Allison is another major component missing. Any leads on required stuff would be appreciated.
Saw this pic on facebook last night. Jenna was back at Powell River and picked up the twin turbo 16V71
Thanks for Posting I was wondering about finding a engine. My guess they are getting harder to find.
Dont know if its true but...I read it's the original engine out of the truck..
From what I understand the truck at Jackson Bay was built by Madill’s. It was , in some ways, similar to the Butler trucks. John Casanave tells me he got the diffs out of the truck and it was scrapped afterward
It is the original engine. We picked it up at a yard in Powell River