Hi All, I am starting to research buying an older 30k lbs.ish excavator to improve a forested lot we have purchased. 1 acre combined of flat areas and 39 acres of steep hillside with 12"-36" trees for camping, shooting, and raising grandkids. It has overgrown logging roads throughout. Me, I'm a total novice with 25 hours of loader backhoe experience and an office job, so I can only have fun on weekends. I look forward to years of occasional Saturdays widening a road or removing a stump. The excavator will sit most all of the time with a service call yearly. I can afford to rent, but would like to save money in the long run, plus have the convenience of having it there ready to go. I would love to have a new Cat 316 with thumb and blade if I was rich. When does the sweet spot change to the money pit zone in older excavators that are rarely used, for age, hours on the machine and cost to buy? Any advice?
There are so many possibilities out there that general advice is a little tough to give. That being said, I would readjust your sights. 1) absolutely plan on getting some professional eyeballs on whichever machine you think you want. You cannot skip this step as an inexperienced person. 2) look at bigger iron. You're only going to move at once, and at some point they provide a better value for the dollar. People can't move them around with their dump truck so they don't want one. This puts a premium on anything in the 30000 lb or less range. You on the other hand are going to hire a delivery one time. I would be looking at 200s to 300s. 3) get a seasoned hand to help you for a day or two when you get it. It will make you safer, faster and less stupid looking when you are on your own.
Thank you skyking1, will look for bigger. Do 25 year old machines have smooth hydraulic control similar to newer machines?
Yes. The newer machines can be quicker, but they don't necessarily feel any smoother. What's your approximate zip code? Do you want a thumb?
93628 for the property east of fresno ca in the sierras. It is 5 miles from the entrance to kings canyon national park where the giant sequoias are but a little lower at 5200 feet. Want a hydraulic thumb and would love to be able to add a blade for leveling roads if that is possible for the larger machines
Hello Dan and welcome to the HEF! Have you read this thread about home owners purchasing 40 year old, 30-40 ton class hoes ? What I learned was the bigger the better for street cred. Make sure it’s bigger than the neighbor’s hoe. Homeowners buying old giant excavators? Wonder what the world will be like when everyone is a construction equipment operator, HVAC repairman, computer repairman, hardwood floor installer, brain surgeon, dentist, landscaper, politician-oops forgot everyone already is that, chef, well driller, college professor, lawyer, pilot... HeavyEquipmentForums
Hey, now I'm not advocating mining machines here!!
I’ll make Dan a great deal on my 320C project. As is, where is. One owner. Maintenance records recorded in black sharpie on the shop wall. Many new parts. Some assembly required. It has a thumb and the boom is already cracked.
I might be wrong but I feel like a 36" tree would be a load for a hydraulic thumb. I have a manual thumb on a pc200 komatsu and a hydraulic thumb on a pc220. I can grab and hold bigger trees with the 200. The thumb on the 220 will go past the relief pretty fast. Don't get me wrong I love the hydraulic thumb most of the time but not for big trees.
Jeremy has a good thread going regarding homeowners lifting those heavy tree logs with giant excavators. Tool to clamp and lift heavy tree logs? I have a 345BL and a bunch of cut-down trees on my property, 24" in diameter and some as long as 20'. I want to preserve the length so I can utilize them in the future. But moving them around has proven difficult with my standard bucket. Is there any innovative way to move these things or some... HeavyEquipmentForums
I have not seen him report any success with that yet, but at least he's doing the bucket assisted turn. The one step at a time.
That reminded me of the recent new homeowner member whom purchased a 235B and promptly emptied the hydraulic reservoir in the backyard soon after walking it off the transport.
Thanks for difference between different thumb types. I will probably push bigger logs down the hill if I can't carry them. What is a cracked boom, if not something I don't want to have to fix? Does north of the 60 mean Yukon, NWT or Nunavut? If purchasing a distant machine, was going to call the local dealer to get a recommendation for the local guys that go out into the field to repair broke down machines to get an inspection. Is there a better way to get a good inspection when I can't do it?
Distant machine = large $$$ to move, keep that in mind. Joe H
take your time and find an independent mechanic/inspector if you can. I know you want it NOW but you can rush into a whole lot of misery. That is part of my suggestion for bigger iron. You can find a well maintained gem for the same money of half the size of clapped out neglected worn out midsize. When you speak of 12~36" trees, bigger machine is always better. The other things about bigger: 1) they flatten out the local terrain and provide a smoother ride in all ways. This is handy when tracking in some rock. 2) they just reach over there, rather than tracka-tracka-tracka back and forth. 3) if it a 90's to 2000's machine with a butt, it is roomier to work on. 4) bigger oil changes and fluid changes. Annual changes are not necessary, just do it per hour schedule and keep track of it. Getting a well maintained machine with a record is worth many extra $$ because you don't have to knee-jerk the oils changes, there is a record of it.
The best way to get an legit inspection in the PNW is from HEF member, John. C. The second best is your’s truly. I’ll be in Cali next week doing an pre-delivery/purchase inspection on a Propane Bobtail at Arrow Manufacturing in Big Raisin. My corporate headquarters is located in Wasilla, AK. But, I whore myself out all over the Last Frontier and the L48. Cracked boom is exactly why you want an inspection done. There are so many traps and pitfalls with old, used excavators. They will crush your hopes & dreams and empty your wallet in a heartbeat.
All good advice being given here. In regards to walking, a larger machine is much less “jarring”. We often have to walk our machines 10km or more. I really dread this in our 5 ton, the 21 ton is much nicer. As stated above trees are easier/safer to manage with the larger machine. We have removed a substantial number of trees with a 12 ton machine, however our current 21 ton with the increased reach/weight is preferred (especially large fir trees) When inspecting a used machine pay close attention to the rotek bearing (useful to have a second person to watch closely for movement between the upper structure and the carbody)
yes, everything about bigger is smoother if it is on tracks. I can do a day on an 8 or 9 dozer going hard on a fill, but about halfway through I am shot on a 450-ish machine. Every rock beats the crap out of you.
@John C has videos explaining much of the inspection processes. I would still farm it out to a pro though. They will see a thing out of the corner of their eye in passing that could save tons of misery.
^^ I agree, it takes significant experience to properly access a machine. Given the cost (especially these days…) of parts/repairs the money to hire an expert is well spent.
Not likely to find a machine with a blade in a larger size. What hasn't been asked is, do you have a max. budget? Generally you get what you pay for so spending a little more up front can save you lots of money and headaches in the long run. There's several brands worth considering in older excavators so that gives you more options than some other types of machines. Looking on the net under used excavators or on Machinery Trader will give you some idea of prices. 200 size machines are probably the most common. Going too big then you're looking at more fuel consumption and more expensive parts. As said the smaller machines are easier to move so typically are higher priced. Excavators are pretty smooth because you're mostly sitting in one spot when operating them.
The blade is what led me to the bigger mini-excavators, and I would like to retrofit a blade to a larger machine if that is possible. It would cost me $7-8k a month to rent a 15 ton machine with thumb for a month where I can only use it on weekends. Considering 5-6 rentals over a few years, gives me a budget of $40-50k to break even in a few years and then have free use after that. That's the logic i was going to try on my wife anyway. What is 200 vs 300 size machines? What older brands should I consider? We have a Cat used equipment yard near Fresno, so was hoping to be able to get old parts rather than new as needed.
The numbers roughly translate into the weight of the machine so a 300 is a fair size bigger than a 200. I think it's by metric tons. A 200 is 20 tonnes, a 300 30 tonnes, etc. $40-50K should get you a pretty decent machine. Hitachi, JD, Komatsu, Cat, Link belt, Case and maybe a few others. Of course there are certain models of the popular brands you're probably best to steer clear of too. Pretty hard to adapt a blade to a larger excavator and excavators aren't designed for pushing like a dozer. Kobelco makes a blade runner but how many Kobelco dealers are there near you. A dealer might be able to give you an inspection report and possibly warranty on certain components. I remember seeing used machines listed from Finning (the Cat dealer here) and there was quite an extensive list of the condition of all the different components (hours since overhaul, etc.) and area's of the machine like the cab interior and operation of all the controls and switches. It also listed damaged and non working items. Sometimes it's worth paying more to buy from a dealer, especially if they sold the machine new and did all the service on it. Other times buying from a well known contractor can get you a well maintained machine that they change out when they can't right it off anymore.
the blade runners are on 135's for the most part. They are not a good thing to try and cobble on so if you have to have one then prepare to pay for it. I'd bu any GOOD used Cat or John Deere or Komatsu or Mitsubishi. Not much personal experience with Kobelco or any others. I set the filter at equipment trader to 1000 miles out, 30 to 70K for price. I did not see much Many more straight digging machines than thumb ones. One I saw in Colorado was a Volvo 88. I have a soft spot for those, I ran it for a season on the Mt. Rainier job. There were a couple but they looked suspect to me. Here is an example of suspect. This 325 looks beat. It has a simple thumb which suck if you are doing much work. The door over the pump is gone and you'd want to cover that isht up or risk a very expensive mistake if an unfortunate branch speared something. Sprockets look good. Seat looks like a pack of cats has been living in it. https://www.equipmenttrader.com/listing/1995-CATERPILLAR-325L-5025974629 This hitachi could be better, but the leaks and that bonus hose hanging down is a head scratcher. At least it has a progressive thumb. Unfortunately it is in the less desirable range for emissions problems. https://www.equipmenttrader.com/listing/2008-HITACHI-ZX270+LC-5025273831
I bought a CAT 320CL last year...it is approx. 50K machine. Before that I had a new Takeuchi TB370, about 15K lb. The Takeuchi is good for lots but proved too small for a big pond dredging we are doing. The CAT 320 is a 2006 model...paid $63,000 for it. It had about 6800 hours on it, I think..somewhere in the 6000s. So far it is doing a good job. The issues we have had were a thrown track (we knew it was loose but didn't realize HOW close to trouble it was...no adjustment was left and it threw) and fuel leak. Once we got it back to shore (used the Takeuchi to recover the thrown track and my son walked it out "one-legged" to shore where we re-installed the track good enough to track the CAT to the shop, about 300 yards away.) We replaced sprockets and pad bolts, rebuilt adjusters, replaced frozen rollers and carriers. On the fuel leak, it just needed an O-ring. We discovered a leaking head gasket when we bought it and have been watching that but so far it has shown up again...a head scratcher but I am accepting it as good for now. It is going to need a boom cylinder rebuilt at some point...slow leak there. The CAT has the quick change hydraulic coupling system...super useful. I was not looking for that feature but it came with it. Hoorah. Like these guys said...big has lots of advantages...and lower hours could save some headaches. Good luck.
Kobelco had a 160 blade runner. I don't know what Mitsubishi is like for parts. Also not sure of parts for the Mitsubishi built Cat machines but those are older.
so what do you think Gary? is the 320 more than 3 times the takeuchi as far as getting work done?
For sure. The amount of dirt we can move is amazing compared to the Takeuchi. The bucket on the CAT is seriously big. And picking up logs is amazing, too. Moving one mud mat is no problem...about 2300 pounds. Moving two at once can get prickly at extension but slow and easy works thru that. The Takeuchi is more nimble and gets into tight spots...along canals or snaking thru the woods to get to some beaver dams we have to control. And it is lighter and does not wreck lawns/fields like the CAT. But that's not such an issue at the farm. The CAT 320 was a smart buy on our part.
Here is a 200 Komatsu that is more along the lines of reasonable. https://modesto.craigslist.org/hvo/d/modesto-komatsu-pc200-excavator/7627389749.html two buckets is a nice extra. 160 JD with simple thumb. About 35K machine. https://fresno.craigslist.org/hvo/d/madera-john-deere-excavator/7627425574.html
Forgot to mention Cat numbers are different as far as weight goes. I think a 320 is around a 200 size in other brands.
Different charts say my 320 is from 44000 lbs to 50000 lbs.
20 metric tons 44000 pounds. It is a start, then there are things like the thumb weight or long carriage or just plain model bloat.
Cat had similar numbering system to the others with the E series Mitsubishi derived series. I think when they went to Sumitomo designs is when they changed their numbering system. They just had to be different.
Thank you skyking1!! Now I have to get serious with my wife and check them out!!
Has anybody started popcorn yet? Try not to get carried away with the butter . . .
What is this untucked hydraulic line on the other side of the boom for? Other than this line, the biggest difference i can tell between the 2 machines is i like the placement of the lines on the deere at the top of the stick compared to the komatsu.
On of three options, the other hose for the bucket cylinder, the other hose for the thumb cylinder, or it is for a hydraulic quick attach.
The thumb on the 160 is a simple thumb that was cobbled on there, and they did not tie up the lines well. There is a lot of difference between that and a progressive thumb on the Komatsu 200 or that 270. That extra line in the 270 is probably the case drain line from a mower head, and that goes with the full guard on the front of the cab.
I was thinking of that 270, I edited my post above. If you see doing a lot of grubbing with the thumb, then consider getting a progressive thumb vs simple thumb. The progressive thumb has that extra linkage between cylinder and thumb, and has a much wider operating range. Simple thumb is what a mini has on it from the factory, and you have to work it in a more limited range of motion. They work, but are not as slick as a progressive.
Something that has not been talked about. You say you have run a backhoe for 25 hours otherwise you have an office job and your property is located in the Sierras with a lot of steep hill sides. Bigger is often better but the bigger the machine the bigger the trouble you get yourself into. Also, the bigger the machine the bigger the cost to fix when you do break it. I would suggest renting different size machines for awhile not only to get used to running an excavator but also to see what size works best for you. I'm an equipment mechanic and through the years have seen many disasters from inexperienced people buying machines that they have no clue about. Give some people a ball bearing and send them into the woods and they will be back with parts in 15 minutes. I would have rather seen a customer buy a machine because that would give me more work but in many situations, especially like this one, rentals make a lot of sense.
Reasonable advice. Excavators feel really weird on slopes. At least to me. And they will tip at the drop of a hat when when that boom is extended and you are at the break point of the slope.
What is "tI,i,u" in the "Komatsu PC 200 excavator with tI,i,u diesel engine" Isuzu would be great from my reading. I read up on the progressive vs simple and see your point
My plan was to rent something for a month soon and get started on widening the half mile driveway from the bottom up to the first landing area, and see how it goes. The driveway is level and has been there for a hundred years, made when California allowed logging and until it became national forest, so i won't be on a slope. A whole lot of moving dirt from uphill to downhill until I lose my thrill with excavators. Won't use fill for the driveway, just making a wider shelf into the mountain with a drainage ditch and double wide road bed. Then buy something over the winter. But now skyking1 found 2 local machines in my budget and i have to decide if $8k on a month rental is worth it.
Cool on the 2 local machines. I was scouring used eqpt. sites on the web for months, figuring that if a machine was sold by a dealer that at least it had been 'gone through' before I got it. I had a 300 mile radius, figured I would have one trucked in. I happened to notice a Craig's list For Sale ad for a machine by owner, about 15 miles from my farm. I hired a local independent HE mechanic to check it out for us. He had some good inputs but he missed the barely leaking head gasket. My son noticed that and pointed it out to the mechanic...a case where the amateur looked closer than the pro. That helped us with negotiating a price. Anyway, local can be good...just get someone who understands engines, hydraulics, undercarriages and lots of stuff I don't even know to name...awareness will be your friend. And about slopes...I did not think I would be on slopes...then realized I have to go down (and up) a slope when I go in and out of the pond to do dredging. You will probably see something just off the road you want to pickup...and just out of reach. Hmmm.... It's hard to tell, but that is about a 30 degree pond bank slope before I get to the first mud mat.
I wouldn't be afraid to move up or down that slope with the bucket straight ahead, but wouldn't want to stop on the slope and pull a stump out perpendicular to that trail if i understand you right. I've got a great family with 7 children, 8 grandkids so far that I want to help educate, a great business with 52 employees, no desire to ride motorcycles, start flying airplanes or desire to take risk when so many people depend on me. I have had to reacquaint myself with chainsaws because of this property, so I know I'm not perfect.
And that's for sure one machine series I would not advise anyone stepping into none of the old 200 series cats. I spent enough time on them to speak from experience. Everything that came after them in the 90s was better. The last one I ran was for Tucci and they kept dumping money into that thing and even had GPS rigged up on it. One thing about 235, if you have a full shift going on and you go past 8 hours it runs out of fuel. If you're trying to work 10s the fuel truck has to come during the day.
Not saying you can't do it safely, but excavators are so easy to operate that most people think they can do it and end up getting themselves in trouble. Inexperience, hillsides and excavators are a recipe for trouble. Hope it all works out for you.
I agree with you @excavator and really the same goes for all equipment on hills. There is no magic bullet there. They will all ruin your day or your life on a hill. This is why I suggested having an experienced hand out there for a few days to get you started and check in on you. I know that sounds to be a pain in the butt but it would be well worth it. It protects you and your investment. You said you have people depending on you so I think it's money well spent. I had a young operator with some limited experience do some work for me and he got in trouble pretty quickly. And he had been around equipment a whole lot more than you have. Edit: Here are some pictures of what I put that young lad into. You showed up on the job ready to work and you're going to have to show me what you know. I flew the excavator into this spot with the crane. It look like this behind him. I set him down on the flat and gave him very specific instructions. Cut material from the left corner and place it on the right corner. Heel it in for now and I will come back and hoe pack it. I went down below to get a hose for water for compaction and climbed up a ladder and looked over that wall right there, and he was already into the wall with the ROPS. He was in a panic and I told him just don't do anything. Flip that lever up and take a break! I went up there and finished it off myself.
Thank you excavator! I pray it does and appreciate the warning. It's like life, one bad decision ruins a thousand good decisions.
I know you say you're not going to put your road on fill but you're going to put that dirt somewhere and if you don't compact and deal with it very carefully it's going to end up down the canyon in a big mess and maybe get you in trouble. So consider what happens with that dirt. If you just toss it from one side over to the downhill side and leave it, it's not going to stay there in a gully washer. If you want to maintain the downhill corner of the existing road and just dig in, you're going to need a big truck. Feel free to post up pictures of what you're up to from time to time.
Agree with getting help. My son's company builds roads for housing developments, and will get one of his friends there that runs heavy equipment, I believe a grader. But, if you know the central valley, it's just flat land
Thanks skyking1, there is nothing around the driveway for hundreds of yards except hillside forest. I think I can just give it to the downhill side god to take it away. Most of the roadside is very steep and I would be more afraid of needing a retaining wall or the driveway on fill sliding away some day. I am confident in the present driveway since it has been thru a hundred wet seasons. I just want to be able to pull a travel trailer up it without ruining it.
Yeah don't do that. At least walk over there and heel it in with the back of the bucket, and do what you can. You'll be happier with the appearance and the results. If you can shape it up nicely, you'll end up with a shoulder there and although you may not want to use it for heavy traffic, it does provide some safety. Maybe you have some rocks that you can key in to the slope before you add the fill. Keying is where you dig a small pocket to set the rock in and then you can build on that rock with another and end up with a little bit of a bench to put the dirt on. Heel that dirt in good and then track walk the shoulder at an angle, never parallel to the slope for safety. Short little walks and then turn and go straight and then another short little walk. When you're done, it will actually be roadway, but you're welcome to not use it. It's still a great place for walking
Thanks again!
A lot of if not all rental outfits require you to have contractors/liabilty insurance and won't rent larger machines to inexperienced operators. Buying a machine you can't trust most used equipment dealers or even some new equipment dealers. A good dealer will have a condition checklist and go through everything and test things where required. If a machine has hyd. hoses dangling all over the place and not properly secured makes you wonder what else is neglected. There are good well maintained used machines out there. Don't have to jump on the 1st machine you find unless it's really really clean with a full service history and good inspection report. There's a lot of machines out there.
No doubt. Even the smallest of uh-oh's can kill you. #2 guy for a local land clearing and ROW contractor was operating a 220 Kommie on a power line ROW down in South AL. Anyone that knows south AL it's pretty damn flat. 220 slide down a slight embankment on the operators side pinning the door and wracking the front window panel. He kicked the front glass out and climbed out of the machine then died on the spot. What he didn't know was he fractured a vertebra in his neck where a shard of bone severed an artery to his brain. He was my age and went to high school with my wife. Be careful. These big diggy machines are exciting and all but also deadly.
That's kind of wild, must have been some kind of freak hit to twist his neck like that. It is something how much shock can be transmitted into one's body via a machine. I caught a curb with the corner of the snow pusher with a skid loader last winter, just in such a way that the edge didn't trip and the floating edge couldn't move up. I was doing maybe 3-4 mph, but that was possibly the hardest hit I have ever taken, I had to sit there for about 10 minutes to shake it off. I thought for a couple minutes I might have to go to the hospital or something. Never felt that internal feeling before.
Catching a curb in a skid steer going 2 MPH darn near propels you out the front door. That's where you're glad you have a seat bar. I doubt many operators wear the seat belt clearing snow from parking lots and other flat ground.
I was belted. I am basically always belted in, unless just moving stuff around a little. I hate sliding around in the seat, and I am generally fast and aggressive, and often run on various angles on jobs. I need to be planted in the machine.
You're one of the minority but the seat bar is still nice to have when you hit something unexpected. Without a seat bar or seat belt you could really get thrown forward.
Excavators get used hard. By the time you talk about getting into the affordable range the machine might be but the maintenance ain’t. And anything with a thumb already on it is going to be BEAT to death. They are usually used on clearing and some demo jobs. Even newer, low hour machines treated like this quickly become junk.
Once I was hauling ass with a smooth lipped bucket on a Bobcat 863 cleaning up a residential street we were building on that did not have the seal coat on yet so the asphalt was 1.5" below the curb. I caught a SS manhole in the middle of the street at a high rate of speed that was completely covered in dirt. Just had the seat bar down with no belt and when my head hit the roof I blacked out for a second and saw stars like Wile Coyote saw on the Road Runner show. Probably one of the many things wrong with me now.
That hurts just to read . . . The snow plowing situation I mentioned was a similar situation; a restaurant under construction with only the base asphalt. Those curb bases are a bugger.
Imagine if you didn't have the seat bar. I cut my head on an older skid steer when it popped into float position with a bucket of dirt about a foot off the ground. It popped into to float too easily. My current skid steer wastes a little time because you have to have the boom down to kick it into float. You really have to stomp on the foot pedal. I'd like something in between. A solenoid would be really nice.