Some background. Out of high school I worked at a greenhouse and they sent me through a bobcat school and I ran a loader for them for a year till I moved on. Since that time I have always wanted to own one. Landscaping is a passion of mine and I spend most of spring, summer and fall doing it for myself, friends and family. Unfortunately with the long winters of northern Canada it can't support me year round so I have a normal job. I live in a town of 3000 people and the two landscapers / small excavation guys in town are both doing it as a hobby in there retirement. Having used them on occasion for jobs to big for a shovel and wheel barrel I know they will be calling it quits about the time I plan to retire. This seems like a perfect way for me to spend my retirement. I have been living on google for the last few weeks researching skid steers and I keep getting links to this page so I decided to join as I have learned a lot. I have experience in two loaders. The bobcat I ran many years ago (long since forgot the model number) had the hand and foot controls and A family friend loaned me a New Holland C232 CTL, when I got my new house to do the yard. I much preferred the track machine to the wheel in both stability and ease in digging. I also really liked the joystick in the C232 to the hand and foot controls of the bobcat, so I would be leaning that way for preference. I was able to hop in the New Holland and in 10 mins I felt comfortable and was working with out thinking about the controls. Now to my questions. I have access to every brand of machine available within an hour drive of me (closest city) I am leaning towards Deere as I would need the same hour drive to get service but my brother can get me parts locally through the John deere agriculture dealer. Second would be New Holland as I really enjoyed that one I borrowed and parts would be 20 min away at another agriculture dealer. I know everyone on this site always says that the dealer and service are the most important and that makes sense but I am looking more for the most reliable machine (i know they all brake down) I will be the only one running it so it will be treated well and the maintenance will be followed. I have enough skills to change fluids, hoses, and tighten tracks, but anything thing big like rebuilding motors ect will have to go to the dealer and being a small retirement operation large cost repairs will hurt. I don't mind if a fix takes a few extra days or have to wait for parts as the down time won't mean I can't put food on the table, So getting the most reliable out of the gate is most important. I know the CTL have a higher cost to run but it's not going to be asked to run all day everyday and ran hard if it sees 15hr a week I would be surprised. For what it's worth Bobcat by far is the most popular as far as what I see working around the city and on trailers with Cat probably number 2. there is dealers for Tak ,ghel, mustang, terex, ect, ect, But I have never seen one outside of the dealer but they must sell them or they wouldn't be around. Second question. What size of machine do I need? I will be stripping grass, grading yards, hauling gravel, rock, topsoil. Basic small excavation landscaping. I don't want to go too big as I will be mostly in residential sized lots and don't want to tear up existing landscape (or atleast keep it to a minimum) or have trouble maneuvering. The only accessories I have plans to run is an auger and hydraulic tamper. I know this has been asked a lot but this is the part I need the specs explained to me. I looked up the weight of sod and pallets of rock and they came in at 1800-3000lbs and the average weight of a yard of gravel or crushed rock is also in the 3000lb range. So simple I just need a machine with a ROC of 3000lbs or a little over. But then I watch youtube video's of machines smaller than that spec doing the jobs? So am I not understanding how the ROC correlates to the job it can do or are people pushing there machines past there capabilities? I look forward to any advice and suggestions on machine. Thanks Jason
Also if anybody has any recommendation of what upgrades and options they find useful for this type of task I am all ears.
I demo-ed Case, Cat, Bobcat, and Kubota a couple falls ago. Would have tried a Deere, but our dealers here in ND are crap. I ran a 332 a few years ago and didn't really care for it, so I wasn't that brokenhearted. In my opinion, I rate the ones I've ran like this (best to worst): Bobcat, Cat, Kubota, Case/New Holland, and lastly Deere. Even though I feel the Bobcat joystick controls are by far superior to any other brand, if the Cat had better access getting in and out of the machine Bobcat and it would be pretty equal. The Kubota is a very nice machine to run, but for me the cab is just too crude. Did not care for the hydraulics on the Case although I've been told numerous times (including on here) that the machine's setting could have been to blame. I rate the Deere the lowest because I didn't care at all for the controls, and the visibility is nonexistent. All these are my opinions, yours may be completely different. If I were to suggest a machine, my vote would be for a T770. If that's too big, maybe a 750 or 740. As far as specs go, track loaders are rated different from tire machines. Track machines ROC is 35% of tipping load, rubber-tired loaders are 50% of tipping load. That's why you see machines that are rated for less lifting and carrying more.
I can't stand a swing out cab door and wanted a fully welded on undercarriage, so for me the choice was between Kubota and Takeuchi. I bought an SVL90-2, but would have been plenty happy with a Tak TL10. I made the decision based on my relationship with the Kubota dealer and the distance to the Tak dealer. The one thing that is pretty cool about the Tak models is good power in a narrower package.
If you're planning to buy new, and only average 15hrs per week you may not want to spend the higher cost for cat and bobcat brand. That's one reason I went with Kubota, I don't spend a lot of time in the machine...almost 1200hours, but it's taken me 52 months to get there. Should demo the size you want in a few brands in your budget and start narrowing from there. Sure I'd be more comfortable in maybe a bobcat(cat is too cramped feeling for me) but for the added cost, and I average 5.75hrs in the machine a week, not justifiable. As far as the size of machine, sounds like a 75hp machine would work good for your needs, until it comes to the 3K# roc then I believe you'll need to go up in the size of machine....you'll start getting pretty heavy and doing landscaping and needing to be light on yards, not tearing stuff up is possible but might need to swap out for a different track tread pattern.
If you are doing landscaping and stripping soil for sod/seed definitely look into a Harley Rake or some other brand of power rake. You can turn the old yard right into the soil and leave a very smooth and well packed surface that's ready for sod or seed with a quick hand rake. I picked one up from a rental fleet for $2200 that needed a little TLC and it payed for itself quickly. But yeaike the others said ROC and tipping weight are related. You can pick up more than the ROC but don't stop too fast of go down a decline with it up in the air without having a good feel for it.
Thanks for your feedback. I have read that before about the deere it was just handy to have a parts person local but sounds like a demo before I buy is definitely needed and I have been reading about reliability issues.
I am still learning about all this but I definitely like the idea of a strong purpose built CTL as apposed to bolt on track ones. I don't need to be like everyone on the block and Takeuchi keeps coming up enough that I don't think it would be wise to ignore them just cause I have never seen one. Kubota locally is the most expensive of all the skid steers I priced out. Starts at 87000 and moves up quick with options. However they are usually regarded as one of the most reliable (especially there motors) on the forums, Might be worth the extra coin. Thanks for your post
Thanks for the post. The only reason I am worried about the 3000lbs is being in a small town away from the city sod delivery and rock delivery is a no go so If I am doing work with that I am on the hook for getting it to the job site. Upon further review I am considering looking for a older used all terrain fork lift for the few times I need it and going with a dedicated CTL that is perfect for the landscaping that will be the bulk of my work. I am lucky to have a real good job with a low cost of living so I plan to buy the CTL close to retirement and pay it off and go into this project without any debt. Right now I am looking at closed in trailers and the smaller tools Aerators, Tillers, ect.
I am not understanding how ROC and tipping weight translate to work that can be done with the machine. I appreciate the heads up on the attachment as I am quickly learning you can spend more on the attachments than the machine itself. Man these things are versatile. Thanks for your post.
I believe you can lift a pallet of concrete with a Kubota svl75, think I've seen it on YouTube. Not rated for it but will do it at idle. Wow those Kubota have gotten very pricey, I got mine loaded in 2011 for right about $58k. I'm guessing when you say enclosed trailer you mean a dump trailer? Take a look at LoadTrail trailers, they make a very good product....that'll be my next trailer. Also look at bucket breakout force how well it'll lift out of a pile, and tractive effort/traction force...that'll tell you the pushing power.
*Most* skidsteers are limited by tipping load, which means that a certain amount of weight will make the azz-end come up while trying the lift the load. On my T770, that weight is about 10,000 lbs. So, 35% of 10,000 is 3500 lbs, which is the spec for Rated Operating Capacity, or ROC. Now, just because Bobcat has determined that the T770 will take 10,000 lbs to tip doesn't mean it can lift 9,900 lbs, but it's very possible that you could move around 4500 lb pallets of concrete or sod and be ok.
Just two years ago we could have bought a brand new SVL-90 for $64,000. We ended up with the 770, fully loaded, for $67,500.
That's a good price on that bobcat. I'd like to try out the T870, but local dealer is about 100 miles away. Don't need another machine but heard its a heck of a machine.
If it's basically a 770 on steroids, I'm sure it's an unstoppable beast. I don't get into much hardcore digging like some of these guys do with toothed buckets, but I do a fair bit of tree work and what that 770 can do is amazing. I don't run a mulcher, but it will handle fair-sized trees with little effort. We don't try and slog around through piles of chopped up brush, branches, and stumps, so our tracks get along just fine.
Do not think we can advise on machine size until we understand your capabilities better.. what size truck and trailer do you have? Do you have a CDL? Reliability goes hand in hand with simplicity. Do not get high flow unless you really need it. The new kubotas are very simplicit and would be easy to work on. But why do you need tracks when wheels cost so much less to buy and run, could steel over the tire tracks work? I personally would not buy a new machine unless you will make way more money with it than it would cost. Like triple ... which would mean your hobby is now another real job because you might need to work more than you plan unless you have plenty of money and don't care to make a profit.. Many guys loose lots of money with heavy machinery. The most successful men I have met have other guys running their machines. I have met more guys that spent more than they made...especially when they jump out there and get a truck payment and tractor payment then they still need to cover there house paymnet. I understand that you plan to pay it off up front, my point is go slow till it is making enough money to justify spending your hard earned savings.. One thing I have learned is dirt does not know weather a $10 shovel moved it or a $75000.00 tractor! Which means my 1998 machine can make just as much money and more than a new 2016 comparable machine can. As a matter of fact I will make more money because I get to keep more of it.. Oh and most of the old retired dirt guys are some of the tuffest men I have met. Especially small owner/ operator's they will jump in there a fix a busted hose or remove a motor even though they are 80 years old.. are you this type of fellow? Oh see you might not want to do all the hard work... well. You might should just rent a machine when you need it for a month or so... Here something else to consider .. bigger is not always better.. all the plumbers around here have it figured out... they have the smallest excavators made known to man for digging up septic tank lids .. yet they might get $150.00 an hr to run them plus hauling etc.. best dirt scam going.. Not to sound to harsh but just some things to consider. Do you own a truck and trailer, if not what are you getting?
You certainly will want to stay under the 75 hp limit to save costs. The machines above this rating have DEF and higher hp but are much more expensive. The costs on these things has gone from high to stupid high since Tier 4F. So unless you have money to kill, don't overbuy. These 75 hp machines are very capable. I cleared two acres of cotton woods (pushed them all over) and built a road with a Wacker Neuson CTL that was 75 hp. It wasn't like running my 90 hp CTL power wise but still got the job done. They can be counter weighted to lift in the 3500 pound ROC range. Check this compare website out. http://www.casece.com/en_us/Comparison/Pages/CompareSpecifications_Results.aspx?eqId=2&mn1=TR 310&mn2=T 550&mn3=279 D These can be pretty helpful as long as the OEM publishes their specs. Some are not as free with the info. These can save a lot of time in looking up specs. A demo is the best way to find what you like, just like you did with the NH. Find a couple machines that you like on paper and put them in the dirt for a side by side comparo.
Honestly I have nothing I still have a few years before I retire and I am more in the research and planning stage to see if its even viable. I didn't just decide this on a whim. It has been an idea in my head for a long time. I have built a business plan (this is how I knew I couldn't quit now and do it) I have also talked extensively with the people that do it now to see what its really like. I understand what you are saying about buying new and the cost, I don't have a good reason other than I have always bought (vehicles,atv,s,ect) new as I like to be the only person that has run them and know exactly how they have been treated and maintained. I am also aware that I take the biggest loss buying new when it comes to resale over buying lightly used. I have the advantage of having a defined pension so all I am looking for is a business that can support itself, I just need something to do as sitting at home is not my idea of retirement. Talking with the two fellows now as long as I stay busy I should have no problem as both are booking three months from now and have people on wait lists. As for tracks over wheels. I have very limited experience but in the little I do have I much preferred the tracked machine. Both will get the job done as one guy in town has a wheeled machine and one has a CTL. I haven't ruled out the wheeled machine yet. As for the old guys being tuff, they were cut from a different cloth, I just had breakfast with my Grandpa and at 87 he's still getting a pay check as a consultant managing a construction site. I can only hope that I will have the health and ability at that age. I am still working on what to run. I haven't decided on a one ton dual wheel truck with hydraulic dump trailer (what both guys in town run) or a used F650 sized truck with a dump box. The cost side is with the truck and dump trailer but our town has small narrow back allies and there are lots of times a truck would have been better for getting to where the person wants it dumped. I once had to wheel barrow 3 yards of 1/2" crush just too clear an alley when a truck would have been able to back into the spot I wanted it. wheel barreling that twice was not fun. I have more pro's and con's and people to talk to before I make that decision. I did not find your post harsh I appreciated that you gave me your opinion and having things to think about that I might not have thought about is a good thing when you are talking about a purchase of this size.
Ah, I got you. Well here is my take. Construction vs land scaping is different needs. So if you would be building houses or buildings you most likely will not work when the dirt is wet due to compaction. A wheeled machine will tighten up dirt harder and way faster than a track machine. Running a wheeled machine is also better for moving materials and going to and fro... People might find this strange but I have never once used a dealer for repairs on my machines. So a good dealer does not mean much unless I need to rent attachments or a machine for some reason. (Being able to get parts is way more important!) So for me the choice is solely based on me being able to wrench on it or put one of my guys on it to wrench on it. I have been using machines now just at 10 years with absolutely no experience before that. I also learned almost all that I know from questioning / reading/ watching / just I can do that type attitude. For me I got hit with a 5k machine work bill by a contractor then another 5k redo bill by another contractor working around this one house from hell and I was like man they just took all the profit off of my houses rebuild. And a light went off and I worked into a used low cost case 75xt machine. And off I went.. today I have 10 or 15 pieces of heavy machinery and I don't allow any one to run anything other than my trucks helping me move machines or dumps to and from sites. Pretty much everything was bought used... but still mostly sound mechanically.. with basic repairs needed to every thing. A tracked machine is a landscapers friend in that it will allow you to operate over a greater range of surfaces and it will have more traction to dig with. But to me it is a fantasy to think you will be running around doing much in wet muck. I would lean most likely to around the size of a tl130 or tl10. They will do about anything you want. Unless you are going into the mulching business. Which then you will need a big heavy duty machine with high flow. A mulcher told me once just forget it. Take your machines and push the stuff into piles and burn it if you can. When I can't I just haul it away and dump it where I can or pay to get rid of it. I am glad I listened to him. He saved me about 50k and I still do the work. But I am not maintaining gas/power lines etc.. so my needs are a little different than some here. But I really really want a big tub grinder but that's a whole nother topic.. Truck wise a small single axle dump with a trash body will blow away a dump trailer. And you can put a machine behind it to. It will haul more weight but if your landscaping and plan to stay small a flat bed work truck with a 14k bumper pull tag and a dump trailer will be nice.. but once you get into the fray you will want bigger and stronger trucks and trailers because if your like me you wish you could just drive a 30 ton rock truck down the highway. I have 4 trucks and they all get broke a lot and they all get used a lot. F250 / f550 / f750 / international tandem dump. I couldn't just have one but that is because I do so many different things. You will find that you will always be ready for the next machine.. I am. If I could just have one skid steer it would be a wheeled enclosed cab machine with a set of metal tracks if needed. I have done with just that for almost 8 years and been good. But that is soley because I build building pads and like the compaction. A 75 to 90 hp is where I would go with either wheeled or tracked..