I often have wondered how it is in other parts of the world, do you cuss when you run on to US built machines and have to break out those crazy inch wrenches and sockets? As an old man I have grudgingly bought my metric wrenches and sockets and taps and dies, and I can measure in metric, I just am curious how others feel about our system of measurement. Is it a hassle to buy inch size bolts and nuts? How do you Brits do, do you also carry Whitworth tools, or is that really a non issue? Carrying three sets of tools would be expensive! Lets hear what you have to say from around the globe!
I absolutely despise metric! They have too many different threads.
It doesn't bother me that much. In school they swore we'd be on the metric system in the US by the time I graduated HS (1996). Well we aren't lol. I've always been good at math and numbers so converting is easy. Knowing what metric wrench will work on US and vice versa is easy out of knowledge and habit. I've just recently gotten better at identifying metric hardware like I can US. We can all pick up a 3/8" coarse bolt and know it by sight. 9/16" wrench etc. Metric pitch being different in how it's measured makes it a little challenging to measure if you don't have a thread pitch gauge but once you understand how it's not bad. I've even played with Whitworth stuff on Jags and some other British iron.
I actually still use mostly standard, most of my equipment is older and is SAE. The motor stuff is mostly metric on the newer stuff I have, but I use probably 80% standard, 20% metric. I only have big wrenches in standard, not metric, and just pick the size closest, or break out the big crescent wrench.
The US was supposed to be metric back in 1867 but it still hasn’t happened yet, I wonder if we ever really will.
The auto and truck world will eventually be metric. The hold back is the old block castings that were SAE. As for industrial equipment. I was in a brick plant a few years ago. Their machinery was built in the 1930's and still in use. The unused line shafts were still in the ceiling.
Well I've got a set of Whitworth sockets that I've never used, and neither did the man who gave them to me. I'm in my mid-50's and when I started out, Ford tractors were all **, International were a mixture of ** and metric, apart from the crawlers which were all **, Perkins were a mixture until very recently, so having grown up with both systems it's never been an issue. I have a couple of BSP spammers for some oddball hydraulic fittings I run across on occasion, but from 1" upwards I just carry metric, we can get them in 1mm increments and on mostbigger sizes they fit ** as well as the proper ** sizes. Failing that there's my big pipe wrench. Someone hit it on the head about how many metric threads there are, but when you look at BSPP, BSPT, NPFT, etc, it was never simple even before metric came along.
Well when I was a Senior in High School in 1968 all the science formulas we worked with only used metrics. We were told that was what we would be using soon. And Ben Franklin had suggested using a measurement system based on the decimal system like he had set up or money. While not exactly metric but still using the same idea of each unit of measurement being a factor of ten when related to the next one. And here in New York State they at one point started marking some of the distance and speed limit signs on Interstate Highways in Metric for a couple years. I'm just waiting for the Religious Right to start demanding we go back to measure things in Cubits! If it was good enough for Noah it should be good enough for us! That might be fun as there are at least half a dozen different versions of a cubit. Best source I could find shows these as the various conversions to inches: Hebrew (short) 17.5 inches Hebrew (long) 20.4 inches Egyptian 17.6 inches Egyptian (long) 20.6 inches Common (short) 18 inches Babylonian (long) 19.8 inches Just be sure to check which version you are using if building a bridge!
Back when I was in college, back in the mid 80's, every AG course had that silly damn requirement to convert ml's to ounces, or vice versa. after the 3rd class of the week, of doing the same math, for all 3 classes, a 4th TA asked me to convert a pint to ml's. Right offa the bat, I I said 473 mls, not doing any math, at all. TA asked me to get up in fronta the lab, and explain how I came to this figure. I walked up to the front of the room, pulled an empty Bud tall boy outta my backpack, and said" It says so, right here!" They stopped askin me questions, after that...
We have a mixture of gear from all over the globe and find that carrying extra tools isn’t much of an issue. Our biggest problem is the range of threads, both metric and imperial. As we are 70 miles from the nearest town, we try to keep a bit of a stock of bolts and things, but Murphy’s law clearly states that the more desperate you are for a particular bolt, the less likely you are to have it. Consequently, we order a lot of stuff over the phone so a thread pitch gauge is essential.
i would rather say 1 foot than 304 mm f the metric system
The tool side wasn't too bad once we got up to speed on the Japanese equipment. What got pretty rough was all the different hydraulic hose connections and new sealing types. JIC to ORFC to JIS to BSPP to NSP to BSP to type 61 flange to type 62 flange single wire, two wire standard, super two wire, four wire, six wire, plastic pilot tubing and on and on and on. Finally just said to heck with trying to carry stock. If you break down I'll just have to go get the right item and you will have to wait until I get back. I do carry a metric tape measure but have only used it for measuring undercarriage.
I dont think its as big of a deal in other countrys as it is hear because they dont inport so much stuff like we have.I bought a set of mm wrenches and 3/8 drive sockets when i started out in the 80s and thought that will be all that stuff i will ever need.
Canada has been metric since the 70's I work in both metric and SAE Somethings are funny how we do it. Temperature, for the outside temp, metric. Zero is cold, 20 is nice, 30 is hot, 40 is F'ing hot! Engine thermostats are in F, fluid temp gauges can be both but F seems to be the most popular. I still work in 0.001" for close measurement and fine tolerances, I don't even have any fine measuring tools in metric other than a Vernier or 2. Measuring out a piece of steel or wood will be in Feet and inches Road distances are Metric Kilometers, but I still find that I will do the conversion in my head to miles Weight, work in both, but once it gets too heavy I tend to want pounds and not Kg because I have to convert it in my head once it is over a few thousand kg. At the store, I convert the weight from Metric to standard, real rough measurement. A 1/2 Kg of ground beef is roughly a pound. The deli at the store is the killer, prices are in $/100 gm. So you look at the price and say I'll take 100 gm and you get 3 pieces. Fluid is mostly metric since most of the container sizes we buy are all metric. As a bonus, only paying $1.25 for a liter of gas sounds way better then $5 a gallon At work I have a complete set of SAE and a set or Metric wrenches and sockets, also own a complete 3/4" drive in metric and I have a few special sockets in 1" drive impact. Have taps and dies in both. Several sets of thread pitch gauges and such for trying to figure out what is what The metric 3/4 drive hardly ever gets used. Big wrenches are all SAE, plus some big adjustable's and pipe wrenches. But I will tell you what I really hate. Manufacture's that use both. The engine is Metric, the frame is SAE, the inside of the cab is what ever was cheapest so could be just about anything. That is one thing that I like about Japanese or European machinery, every thing is the same, all metric. I'm 60, grew up in standard and had to learn metric as it came into play. Hence wanting to still convert.
Work in metric every day, have for years, no big deal. Working on my equipment, mix & match, tyipcal pita. Until it gets to my New Holland 2120 tractor, built in Japan. EVERYTHING is metric, even the hose clamps. It's so nice to grab 1 set of wrenches and work........ Ed
Try owning Volkswagens. The use Phillips, triple square, hex and you name it. Nothing is consistent. Terrible vehicles to work on and I own two. Also do all my own work. German engineering, yea right!
I grew up with tractors built by shipping engines and transmissions to Germany and shipping complete tractors back. I got used to having a metric wrench in one hand and SAE in the other a long time ago.
Triple squares will getcha every time.. Cant work on a Deutz w/o a set..
I had to google triple square. is it different than a 12pt? looks similar. Don't forget about measuring in chains and rods. few old timers around here still talk using those.
Like other have said alot of small stuff and stuff in cabs can be anything so do the spline drive 1/4 drive sockets work good ? Orielys had them on sell and i just about got a set because some stuff smaller than 3/8 or 10mm notheing fitts real good.
Using a 12 point is a guaranteed disaster or make a 5 minute job into a 3 hour job. The triple square is exactly that. 3 squares together. Makes it look like a spline drive. Same issue as using a hex on a Torx fastener. VW uses triple square socket head bolts for high strength stuff like the CV joints. Stripe out the splines and it's a mess to get out.
Hex,Triple square, Torx/star, Torx plus. security versions of all these is what drives me nuts.
Not always the case. My Passats fuel filter retainer was triple square and a pain in the butt. I changed it out for a regular bolt I could use a gearwrench on.
A little reading fun on fasteners, mainly about Torx and variation of those but does have a chart off to the right showing many other fasteners. I too had never heard of the "triple square" before this thread.
I had heard of triple square, but have never come across one. I'm thinking cat 3208 had a 5 sided fitting on the injectors/ nozzles right inside the valve cover? I never have seen a wrench that fit them.
I just want to slap somebody that tries to describe to me something out in a field and they say "ah, it's about 30 rods down the field". ***. I mean, when did they quit talking "rods"? 1925? I need feet or yards.
Sounds like a penta bolt ... like you find on locking utility vault lids, I have a few different size penta sockets for those and certain brake parts on british/euro autos
That five sides bolt head was used on small Japanese fuel pumps. Cat had a big bunch of them leaking early on in the mini excavators. The socket cost an arm and three toes with a letter from the president of Caterpillar to get. I hate the Torx and clutch head screws. As far as I'm concerned they should only be used on bathroom stall dividers.
Lmao.....that what I thought as the retired farmer neighboor was telling me where a woodchuck was at....... "about 15 rods down there, in the fencerow". ***? Ed
Years ago there was a DJ in a country music station in the lower mainland that always gave the weather report, " Tomorrows high will be 22 degress Celsius, thats 72 degrees in the understandable scale."
I'll use metric for distance (kilometers), volumes and temperature. I still prefer using feet and inches when measuring objects or dimensions. For some reason I have a hard time estimating lengths in meters/cm/mm.
For all you wrenches out there; just how many proprietary metric fittings are there on the market? I was in a store recently getting a hose made for me when a fellow came in with a metric fitting, in the ensuing conversation while we waited for our respective parts, he was explaining to me that each brand of excavator has it’s own proprietary metric hose fittings that are only available from the respective parts houses. I believed him, but how can this be? Marketing a piece of equipment would be a nightmare if you were limited in where you can find parts I would think. Around here, loading shovels, faller bunchers are all two of three hours out in the weeds and a half days round trip to get parts under good conditions. Metric sounds less and less appealing as time goes on.
He's full of crap...... Many different types of standard fittings out there, one problem being the designers have no clue of what is commonly available in the real world, be it on their continent or ours and whatever company schmoozed the buyer the best is what your stuck with. Thats why one has to go to the dealer to get hoses, they like it that way. Ed
JohnC answered that in post #12 better than I can. There are enough different thread/sealing standards, that's for sure. Not one for each manufacturer but there might as well be sometimes. The biggest problem is they don't CARE what's available in the real world, much less three hours into the bush. They care what they're workers can assemble the most reliably, they're suppliers can supply the cheapest, and will mostly last the warranty period. Any of the hose companies will have the majority of the styles. Even something like discounthydraulichose has a id guide that will help figure it out, and all their stuff is made in china so they have metric.
I ran into problems on the JCB skid steer we had at work. Biggest problem was the poor dealer/manufacture support in our area. The only thing that would save the day for us was we have an excellent hose company near by. One time there was a hose to the drive motor on the JCB, knew it was close to failing but did not want to disable the machine to remove and take to hose shop to see if they could match it up. Ordered hose from dealer, it took several weeks to come in and when it did it was made wrong! This hose had angle fittings on both ends and they were out of phase with each other! Explained this problem to parts guy who said they would get one in next day air for us. Well about a week goes by and no hose and they were unable to track where it went! Gave them back the wrong hose for credit and stopped at the hose shop. Hose shop is actually all of a mile from JCB dealer! Hose guy says he doesn't have the same angle fitting for one end but could I use a straight fitting with a 90º adapter? Hell yes I said and in less than ten minutes time I had a hose that actually fit better than the original factory hose! I believe that machine had lots of British straight pipe thread hoses on it, might be a common style in some countries but not around here! A few weeks later the other factory hose did finally show up and was sent right back where it came from!
Poclain, with GAZ fittings, or Kobelco hard tubing is the only ones you'll have much of a problem getting. Komatsu does have their own BSP with a fine metric thread. Some hose ends like on track skid loader drive motors are standard, but the tube bends and lengths are not. He probably didn't want to stock another $5000 of DIN metric fittings just to sell them $100 at at time on top of the Whitworth BSP, JIC, ORF, 61/62 flange, NPT, ORB, etc
We've got machines with DIN, British pipe etc. Fully stocked fittings and hoses for JIC, FFO. I've been after them to get us some fittings, mainly the DIN for the soilmec. After some research I determined there weren't many in captivity so I bought several sets of what we needed for it so worst case we can take them to a shop and have the hose made. Before the Soilmec I didn't even know what a DIN fitting was!
I read a book about Packard airplane engines. Around wwI some country badly needed plane engines and Packard was building good ones so this country wanted some but they wanted the bolts and hoses in their sizes so it went from less than 6 thread pitch to over 60 diffrent ones. So they needed to win the war but they would rather lose than go the easy way.
Sixty years ago, most US mechanics didn't even have any metric tools. Back then nations were nations, borders were borders and countries made their own stuff or did without. Too bad it didn't stay that way. Today we have "Globalisation".....an incremental path toward one world, one religion, one centralized government, one mass media, one race, one market, one system of measurement and one religion. I never asked for international trade. Whether or not we wanted the metric system was never on a ballot for us to vote on, but globalization and the metric system were sold to us in our schools at our expense. I would be happy to do without it.
Measurement systems are dictated by engineers and business people and not governments through most of history. The big exception was the end of WWII. The US determined the Japanese would toss all their engineering measurement systems out and use either what was used in Europe or the United States. Apparently they found a way to get even with the US, better engineering and sales of all new tools.
It must be getting like this everywhere. I went to tighten a greasy little sawdusty grease nipple/zerk at the bottom bearing of a conveyor belt (the kind of tight spot where you can only get in from one angle, it's dark, and belt is greased running, so loose is bad.) took a couple metrics, couple of **, and picked up an old Whitworth that hangs out with the ** as a last thought. It's a German made conveyor made 2006, turned out was Whitworth. Hydraulics and battery terminals are definitely all over the place still.
In my 54 year life I'v worked as a mechanic, toolmaker and engineer and had to wear a number of other hats. From day one, I'v had to have both English and Metric tools. I do agree with many that it would be MUCH more convenient to only have to deal with one or the other but the world is what it is and both are used. I can remember the big push back in school early 70's that "USA will be all Metric in a few years", didn't happen did it... Lets not forget the country's that "Claim to be Metric" aren't totally metric either. I have done a lot of business over the years with customers in Canada and I laugh every time I get a print that is all English dimensions. Bottom line is, we all just have to deal with both.
I do some PennDOT engineering work and they tried the metric system a few years ago but it was soundly rejected. We do everything in English units now Period.
My 1990Bronco has quad shocks in front. On each side one shock mount is SAE, other is Metric/
I have always needed both metric and imperial tools and sometimes it can be helpful to beat a 1/2 inch socket onto a rusty 13mm headed bolt . I measure with which ever suits best ,usually meters,inches or mm as size decreases . I use mostly metric bolts but have a soft spot for UNF . Johndeere tractors use metric and imperial all over the shop but what really gets on my goat is putting 1 metric and 1 imperial bearing in the same wheel hub or a given metric bolt having 4 different head sizes . Hydraulic hose fitting types keep increasing ,but atleast they all seem to take metric spanners regardless of thread . Why do JIC have half a dozen thread sizes for each hose size ? I like BSP , it rarely cross threads in a dark corner almost too small for your hand , no O ring to fall out , 1/2 in fitting for a 1/2 in hose and connects straight to BSPT . By any chance could we lobby manufacturers to cop the fcuk on ?