Today we were pushing on a road just like normal and my Case 1150H just died cold, like you pulled the key out and threw it in the bushes. Then, if you keep the starter running, the engine will run, but when the key springs back to the run position the engine dies. So, to move it out of the road so we could get the truck past, we held the starter running creeped forward, but to do that we had to use a piece of wire to hold the switch on the emergency brake so it would engage the transmission. Then after a couple minutes it started working like normal again, but with about half power. Where should I start looking? It seems like maybe the fuel solenoid or ignition switch is somehow getting disconnected, like a wire fell off or a relay is failing or? Where should I start?
Take the wire off of your shutoff solenoid at the injector pump. Install a replacement wire from the solenoid to the engine starter where your positive battery cable is hooked up on the starter solenoid. This will give you power to your shut off and allow the engine stop solenoid to run outside of its normal circuitry. If the engine runs like normal, then your solenoid is ok and you have a wiring/connection issue. If the engine continues to run rough, it could be your solenoid......or another fuel/electrical problem.
That's a cummins engine that's known for a bad solenoid in the dodge world, I'd do a little searching of the dodge cummins forums for your problem and see if the pictures match up with your injection pump and solenoid. External solenoid? use the wire to hold the solenoid open instead of using the starter.
Vtech> if he does THAT, he's energizing the "pull coil" on the sol.. It'll burn up quick.. {300.-350.00} I suggest just grabbing ahold of it.. pulling it up & wiring it up & out of the way.. no electric involved.. Just my .02..
Thanks for this, I'll run up and try it. I broke the throttle linkage on the injector pump awhile back, I wonder if it somehow bumped the solenoid and it failed later? Does anyone have a picture of what I'm looking for?
What injection pump do you have? easiest is to search for "cummins fuel solenoid problems images" and look for one that looks like yours. You're not alone, others have dealt with this embarrassing problem, and posted their results online for the benefit of all.
Bosch, here's an old picture, I don't know where I'm looking on the pump though. In the picture is the vice grip we had to use to limp it back to the shop when the throttle linkage broke.
What's behind the NAPA filter? does that rod go to a cylinder thingy with some wires? Either that, or it's that round thingy under the vice grips. It should have three wires going to it, and a rod going to one of the shafts on the injection pump. Pull the rod tight and hold it with a wire, if it runs then it won't shut off till you remove the wire.
I'm not up by the dozer now, but will look when I am there. Shouldn't there be a relay that has to energize to make the thing run, like maybe in that bank of 5 relays near the fuse block? In the book it shows a fuel solenoid somewhere up in front of the engine by the radiator, but the picture isn't very clear and I couldn't figure out what was really going on, but that didn't really make sense. The injector area makes more sense.
The injection pump is not that far from the radiator... that pump is mechanical as far as I can tell, there should be two shafts coming out of the injection pump, one is the governor, and the other is the shut off. The governor HAD a linkage that went to the "throttle" control. the shut off solenoid is connected to the injection pump with a much shorter linkage, I can't tell what it is from the angle of that picture. Yes, there is a relay to control the shut off solenoid, that is a logical place to diagnose if that's the way you want to do it. There's probably two windings in the shut off solenoid, one pulls in while the starter is activated, and one holds in while the ignition is on. SOUNDS like you lost the hold in part of the solenoid while the pull in still works. Checking the voltage and continuity of the hold in coil will tell you if you have a burned out coil, or a wiring/relay problem. Coils will sometimes fail hot, then work again for a while when cold. Using a wire to hold open the solenoid is a solution that's better than holding the key on. It also is a good place to start the diagnostics, if it still runs rough with the solenoid wired, then you have other problems.
On the OTHER SIDE of the vise grips/pump and DOWN, is the shut off lever.. Just reach around the back of the pump & its right there.. I can see part of it in the pic.
Your right! I was thinking he had that Rooster Master type.......lol. I need to ask for pics next time so I know what pump people are talking about.
Are you talking about the doohickey behind the governor thingy or the whatchamacallit behind the filter thingy ? Bob
When I look at that picture I just want to move that black plastic line or cable that is rubbing through on the top of the pump.
Here's a different picture I took awhile back: Here's the nameplate for it. Took awhile to find the linkage replacement. Here's the temporary fix, I wonder if it somehow also broke a sensor:
Do you SEE any #$%& sensors? You got your answer in post #11 where the shut off shaft is (hint: he's not THE pumpguy for nothin). I explained how it works as I understand it. What more do you want?
The rain to stop so I can get up the muddy road to look at it again, hopefully tomorrow.
Okay, I got it running, but it was a process. First of all, thanks for this: So I was able to apply the "strategic bailing wire special tool" and hold the thing in and got it running, here's a couple pictures of what you're looking for (if somebody else is trying to do this). There's a yellow bracket underneath the top stuff that's pulled toward the front of the engine by the solenoid (well, if it works) that allows the engine to start. Here's the other end. So how in the world do you get that thing out, remove the pump? Sounds hard. Anyone got a better idea. Is there any particular reason this solenoid is needed at all and you couldn't just apply a more permanent bailing wire option? Also, there's a random extra wire sticking out of the harness where it plugs in, not sure where this wire is supposed to go: The weird thing is that even after wiring the fuel solenoid, you still can't start the dozer with the key. The way we got it running was using a screwdriver and wire to jump the starter relay after holding the position switch under the transmission brake thing that you have to hold up to make the dozer move with another piece of bailing wire. I thought maybe the ignition switch was bad, so I pulled the connector off the ingition switch and jumpered across the battery wire to the one that's supposed to go to start the motor and that didn't work. Here's the wiring diagram page, what am I missing?
It looks like you have two brake relays and a neutral start switch that could keep your starter relay from getting power. Unless you jumped the solenoid on the starter, then there's the starter relay too. At least you have a good wiring diagram.
I wouldn't take that soleniod off until you know it's bad, that is, it's getting the run and pull in voltage and not pulling in and then holding with the run voltage. It should crank fine with that solenoid completely removed, and run if the shut off is held open, so that's a hint that you have other electrical problems than the solenoid. Since you didn't have the hold in part of the solenoid working, I'd go back to the key switch and check if the RUN/IGN terminal is getting power, since that feeds power to the fuel shut off solenoid hold in and those relays. Then follow that wire to the neutral start switch, and so on. If you're not familiar with diagnosing with a multimeter, then look at a power probe on youtube, it makes this kind of diagnosing much more straightforward and intuitive, vs thinking out everything you're trying to test with volts vs ohms.
As noted TWO circuits, Pull in on start and hold for run, you lost the run side if will start and run with key in the START position but dies when release. Not many of these will have company manufactured Murphy Systems, or auto shut downs when lose oil pressure, overheat or can be connected to other systems for overheat or loss of pressure safety functions. Have to find a specific to your machine schematic to rule any to all of those functions out. And could be as simple as a bad connection or a popped fuse.
Another question, why does the throttle bellcrank appear to be burnt?
Throttle lever?? that's where it broke & they welded it..
All I saw was high heat burnt and a crack. Would suggest doing a little heavier weld to make it stay.
He brazed it. High heat and some flux in there too.
thanks
We replaced that later, it was a field fix to get it off the mountain. I can't understand why the ignition switch never has continuity from the power terminal to the one at the bottom of the V in the schematic diagram, trying to figure out what that's supposed to do, and if it's just a bad ignition switch. All of the rest of the terminals on the switch have continuity in some switch position, but the bottom one that goes to the diodes doesn't seem to. Not sure what the diodes do either (on the schematic).
Need to follow the line that feeds the diodes, the terminal on the scheme is marked GRD, Ground.
Those diodes will only have continuity with ground in one direction. They're a one way valve for electricity. They might be associated with alarms or gauges and not matter to the start system. It seems like you have everything you need in that visible part of the diagram, just a matter of finding the component, wire, or connection that's not doing it's job.
When the ignition is on, the red wire on your shutoff solenoid should have system power (12V). Its my understanding that the engine starts with the key in the start position and dies when you let the key back to run. If this is the case, then your start/pull coil is working and you either have no power from the keyswitch to the ignition side for your coil hold signal (battery post on keyswitch to ignition post with key on), power at the ignition of the key that is not reaching the red wire on the coil(wiring problem), or the coil has failed. It looks like in your schematic that the ignition wire from the key switch runs directly to the shutoff solenoid hold wire (red on the solenoid pigtail.) SO.............is there another issue also?.........or should I go wash my eyes out and have another cup of coffee?
I would plug the loose wire back into the connector and try it before doing anything. Have to have them all for both coils to work.If solenoid has to come off .unho un linkage to lever,remove oil line to the injection pump, fitting for the oil line from block, remove the two large bolt in solenoid bracket,they take a 15/16 wrench, solenoid comes out the bottom.Not as bad as it looks .
I think I'll start by jumpering 12V to the fuel shutoff solenoid and see if it actuates, since I know that pulling it manually is a piece in the puzzle. At least if that works I'll know it's elsewhere. I have to figure out where the signal disappears after it leaves the ignition switch, it seems like some other switch isn't engaged which is needed to complete the circuit and apply power to both the fuel shutoff and the starter relays, at least that's my hunch. I'll try to get up there tomorrow when there's a break in the weather again and troubleshoot. Thanks for all the input, I'll report back in a bit.
The diodes are flyback protection for the solenoid. The solenoid is basically an inductor and stores current. The diode basically bleeds off the current when power is switched off. They are important to the long term health of the solenoid, but not actually required to make it work.
Wes, do you have the rest of the diagram, or know the Case way of doing things? I wouldn't have guessed the diodes had to do with voltage suppression the way they're wired to the ground of the key switch and three separate lines that don't go to the start circuit.
Okay, but should these have connection to some other terminal on the ignition switch? I couldn't seem to see them having continuity with any other terminal on the switch in any switch position.
It looks like they go to "GND"-ground. probably switched to ground. so they won't have continuity with any other terminal. They will have continuity with ground of the switch body in some key position. And the three Y wires on the other side of the diodes will have continuity with ground of the switch body with the switch in some position, in ONE POLARITY only (reverse your test leads and check again). Deere does a thing where the start switch grounds the warning module to turn it on to display the lights on start up. No idea if that's what this is.
I can't explain why there are 3 diodes, but it is marked "GRD" at the switch, so I believe I am correct that this is flyback protection for the starter solenoid. Basically, when you turn the switch to "start": current flows out the ignition switch, through the brake relay, to the main starter solenoid. The diodes are like a check valve that keep this current from flowing to ground. When you release the key back to "run": current stops flowing to the solenoid. However, current is stored in the solenoid because it is basically an inductor. If you turned the key back to "start", that stored current would try to flow back through the circuit and cause a big current spike that can damage things. Instead, the current flows through the diodes and basically shorts the solenoid to itself allowing it to dissipate the stored current. Flyback diodes are found anywhere that you are switching a large device that stores current, such as a solenoid or coasting electric motor. On motors they are sometimes called "freewheeling" diodes. Anyway, long story short, the start circuit should function without the diodes, but long term it will cause damage. *** It's possible I'm all wet and the other half of the schematic shows the diodes doing something totally different.
Here's the other half of the diagram, it looks like it goes over to the gauges for some reason: I'm going to try to figure out whether the fuel solenoid is getting voltage or whether one of the brake switches is keeping the starter from engaging.
It was the ingition switch. We traced the whole circuit back through each relay and solenoid, checking power and electrically activating each component to see if they engaged. I arced the two terminals on the fuel shutoff solenoid relay and it actuated every time, so we eliminated that. The hard part was both that it was intermittent, and also that the voltage coming out of the ignition switch showed 12VDC, but only until you apply a load to it. Very tricky. I called the dealer and they had SEVEN of them sitting on the shelf in stock (amazing, because they mostly don't stock anything), so that was an indication of how many fail. I also picked up a couple spare relays in case they fail. Total cost = $55. Total hours spent troubleshooting = $too_many. Total downtime cost = $butload. I hope this information helps the next guy working on fuel/ignition issues, there *should* be enough information in this thread to help an awful lot. Thanks everyone!
Glad you got it sorted.