Makes a lot of racket, I took a video of it: Here's a picture of it. Is there somewhere I can grease or a bearing stuck or dry?
Check that you haven't got a rock jammed down beside the idler.
Well, I found the problem, looks like the bearing is shot in the front idler :/ Notice how it's pushed all the way back and rubbing against the adjuster. How hard is it to pull the track off? Is there a specific link I have to break? Hopefully the idler itself isn't worn out and there's a bearing I can just swap?
If it that bad you will be replacing the idler are they sealed or dry tracks dry tracks you have to drive master pin out it will have a recess on the master pin sealed tracks you have a alligator link that you remove the track shoe bolts to separate
No, they're not sealed, I don't think. The sealed option has really wide teeth on the sprocket. Any idea what an idler cost?
Should be an aftermarket available. Google the case part number for the idler and see what pops up
Got the part number from Case. I have regained normal breathing after a few minutes. Looks like part number is: 47695851 If anyone has one laying around let me know. I found a few websites that want to harvest my information before they can tell me they don't have it :/
Bet they are Berco idlers so look at ITR or if you want real good quality check out Komatsu track replacement parts, they'll be twice the price but last 4x longer from my experience. I've found that going through the tractor dealers the prices are huge compared with buying the very same thing from independent. Charging like a Mallie bull comes to mind.
I can't seem to find a master link, but I heard that after the track adjuster is collapsed, you can pull the track off while spinning the track, sort of like a bicycle chain, but with a mini-ex pulling sideways and both ends of the dozer off the ground. If I manage to get the track off, how painful would it be to get back on?
Look harder to find one link not like the others. In your first post pic, it could be above the idler.
Okay, will look a little bit more. Will the other idea work if I can't find it?
It will only work if you can raise the machine off the ground. As you rotate the track, you don't want the machine to be moving. The chains need to be very worn to allow enough stretch. Without an excavator or crane truck it will be heavy to deal with. It must have a joiner link!
I can push the rippers down and the blade and get the tracks off the ground, then sit beside it with a mini-ex and chain, not sure if it will work but it sounds good
Even if it does not have a master pin, wich is unlikely, u can open the chain by pushing out any pin.(master pin is bevelled, care to wich side u drive it..) Cetainly is easier than what u propose, as i can´t see how u´ll succeed to put it back. Nevertheless u´ll need another set of hands...either way Good luck
Sure looks like a split master link to me too. If so just have to take the track pad bolts out. TREK/DCF likely has an idler if you want a lower cost option than OEM. Idler might come with the (bearing) blocks already on it because the originals are likely shot.
I'll try to hunt it down, seems likely to me as well.
Okay, so I washed off all the crud, and tried to get away with lifting the track off the ground, spinning it and trying to pull it off with a mini-ex like a big bike chain. That didn't work. Here's a video of the track, can any of you tell me which link is the master I should be trying to separate?
With your digger boom at 90° to the dozer, hook a chain across the bottom of the track to pull it sideways. With tension on the chain quietly rotate the track in reverse and it'll flop off. Judging by the sprocket wear it should be a piece of cake.
Tried to do something like that, but your idea was better than what I tried, will give it a shot!
Please! Look closely at your chain! I can see the joiner link from Australia!
Splitting at the (split) master link will make putting it back on 100 times easier.
Ha! That's awesome @alrman , thanks so much I rotated the track for easier access, here's a better picture of it: So then I took off the grouser bolts with a loooong breaker bar, and the track just flopped in two! I reeeeally like this forum! Now I have to figure out how to unbolt the idler, but that seems to be sort of obvious, I'll line up the mini-ex so I can pick it up. I'm curious how much damage there is on the fork, I probably should weld that up to get rid of the 1/4" dent that's worn in it.
Just remove the bolts, take the grouser off and smack with a hammer or use a pribar. Easy as. When refitting a ratchet strap is real handy to pull both sections of the link together. If the thread on the bolts are sus and you find that they are unavailable to buy new ones Allen head bolts are the same grade and have used them in the past.
Is there anywhere to get an idler from beside Ca$e? I've heard of aftermarket tracks, but don't have a source for idlers, or know if anyone makes them (or if aftermarket explodes in 6 months of use).
What you have is made by Berco. ITR also make them but if you want the very best try Komatsu. On the outside of the idler there could be some letters and numbers. From those a trackshop can determine what you need.
Used Berco on a TimberJack buncher. Uses D7 track x 1.5 (so need 3 for the machine. Was fairly cheap. Idler loaded with bearing and shaft and spring was $1800 shipped. I forget the weight, but shipping alone was probably $600-700.
Cheapest one so far was $1200 (aftermarket), unless someone knows somebody cheaper.
Check with www.industrialtractorparts.com . Call the nearest branch to you.
IMHO and experience the other side is probably close to failing, so get 2.
I think I had this one over tightened, so more wear possibly. In around 500-1000 hours I have to put a set of tracks and sprockets on it anyway, so I'll limp it along until then and try to take it easy on the undercarriage.
You can extend the track life a little longer by swapping the sprockets and chains from side to side seeing as you are part way there at the moment.
Industrial Tractor Parts was cheaper, $850, but they're mostly in the east, so lots of shipping to get it out west, which I think would make the price delivered the same I'll definitely keep them in mind though, especially when I start hunting for tracks and sprockets, the shipping will suck on those no matter where I get them from I bet.
Agkits.com has a lot of aftermarket parts at fair prices. If you give them your CASE part number they may be able to help you.
Berco asked if I had a part number, guess I'll go pull the bolts off and see if there's anything that hasn't worn off after years of rubbing against rocks and crud.
(Well shoot, I posted this to the wrong forum) Here's how much slop this thing has:
Okay, I have the nice shiny new idler: I got the idler off, trying to figure out the mount assembly, here's what's left of the old one: It doesn't look much like the new assembly, which has these parts: So would this be the way I assemble these (the flop upside down and slide onto track)?
BTW, once I got the idler off, the adjuster fork just slid out as an assembly like this, which will make it easier to take down and get welded:
The circular steel plate (#21) goes in the hole first, the bolt (#19) has to push against it to compress the spring (#22).
There are no springs in the kit I got, only those rubber elastomers, are the elastomers meant to replace the springs? They're reasonably springy. There doesn't seem to be any instructions with the kit I bought.
If you remove the "elastomers" from your old idler - you will see that they are rubber coated springs. So in answer to your question - Yes, the "elastomers" replace the springs.
Okay, thanks! The strange thing is that there was no #23 piece of steel in there, just the springs against the carriage rails, I can't see how those would've fallen out, maybe this idler was replaced before and they forgot? I wonder if that contributed to the bearing failure? When welding the divot ground in the track adjuster, do you think the welding would take out the seals in the ram in the process from the heat?
When I look at your track adjuster, I'm not seeing the urgent need to weld up it up back to factory finish. But it's hard to tell the wear and fatigue from one pic. If you post a few more pics of the area where the idler wore the divot, it may help get a more definitive input on whether welding is needed or not.
Here's a little zoomed in, I'll try to get a better pic:
I wouldn't worry about welding that back up the flush, there lots of meat left there.
Could the corners crack out though over time?
Doubtful, the wish bone is bolted to the idler, pressure is all straight on, now sideways pressure there.
The only way that groove would be a problem is if the new idler was constantly rubbing against it for 100's of hours. That would only happen if the new idler got buggered up like the old one.
If the top of the track frame is worn (which yours is, post pic #37) there will be exceesive clearance between the idler carrier & frame, allowing the plate (#23) to fall out while operating. I've seen this many times. Either you address the wear in the track frame or fabricate a thicker plate - ie from 6mm to 8mm or 10mm. If the top side of the C frame is worn - the underside of the C frame will have some wear too - which is a little more trickier to repair as overhead welding is required .... or you remove the track frame & turn it upside down - which I'm afraid will open up a whole new set of questions.......
maybe I could weld the two of them together, or should I just get one that's twice as thick? Is it just normal steel strap or melded unobtanium alloy ?
Mild steel is fine. If the plate is too thick, it wont fit. OR if it fits were the frame is worn - it may bind where the frame is not worn. You have to customize it to suit your situation. When driving your machine, the idler has is sliding in & out a little every time you change direction, & especially when you bump the track into something solid. Should have mentioned that the wear strips under the c frame may need turning or replacing if turned before.
Don't forget the trade off between fixing it to work for what you need and fixing it back to factory spec. While I'm generally an over-fixer on stuff, I've worked hard to temper that desire when it come to heavy iron. But IMHO, I wouldn't weld your yoke either. It will just get you a 1/4" faster in this same predicament down the road.
I found something interesting, there are wear strip pieces of steel under the carriage rail that are worn thin in the middle: Here's the thickness in the thin worn part: Here's the thicker, non-worn dimension: So I guess I need to get a couple of those fabricated from new steel strap 1.5" wide by 19.5" length.
Here's the rail thickness: Here's the gap on the idler: Minus the thickness of the new wear plate: So now I have to calculate how much (if any) thickness I need to add after I replace the long carriage-mounted wear strips. This reminds me of calculating valve clearance for opening and closing shims on Ducati valve trains, but I don't know how much clearance I need to end up with to still be able to slide it back on the carriage without surgical precision techniques later.
To do a proper job of this..... Before you do any measuring, you need to fill the worn area of the track frame with weld & then grind it flat. (marked in red) You will also note the sides of the track frame where the keeper plates bolted to the side of the carrier sit, will also be worn - weld & grind them too. Place a straight edge across the top & down the side of the track frame - to see the amount of wear that needs to be reclaimed with weld. This is not the greatest image of quality or workmanship (taken 20yrs ago with a mobile phone) - but you should get the idea.
Looks like the idler above has been built up with an automatic welder a couple times. Some shops must have have still been doing it 20 years ago. It used to be really common back in the 80's. The cut outs are a dead giveaway. They are done to prevent excess heat build up inside the idler that could potentially explode or split. Closed box sections will produce extreme pressure when welded if they aren't vented. Not a big concern on large sections but small closed sections will often split the weld open. Automatic sub-arc welded idlers get extremely hot and are usually rolled in a tray filled with water. Without the cut outs would produce thousands of pounds of pressure.
In another 1000 hours I have to put a set of tracks and sprockets on it anyway, can I just replace the wear strip on the bottom (the 19.5" one) with 1/4" strap like it was before it was worn, put the 1/4" spacer under the springs, or will bad things happen, or continue to happen? I don't think I have the skills nor the welder that could rebuild the carriage to perfectly flat, I'd probably make it worse. I could use it as an excuse to get a big welder, but I'd probably still suck at it.
Found the instructions, which are kind of clear as mud. I think there's some Swedish quadratic equation to figure out how many shims I need. I think it means you have to put the whole thing together to figure out what you need, then go get some shims, which I assume are mild steel? I can't imagine the dealer having a stack of shims sitting around, guess I'll check.
I guess Ca$e want $75 PER 0.030" shim! Guess I'll be fabbing those out of sheet metal if I need them.
Thats ridiculous. Did you ask them for the ones WITHOUT the gold flake in them?
Dealer didn't seem to know what material they're made out of, I guess I could use a press break on some 0.030" material and drill a couple holes. I suppose I should put it all together and try to interpret how to actually measure what shim(s) I need, then go make them.
Okay, I got the idler back on, but now I can't get the track on, the adjuster won't collapse enough to get it past the last sprocket tooth. Here's the original wear line where the old idler set, it's about 1.5" from the old mark and I don't know why. Here's me trying to pull the tension out with a mini-ex along with pushing on the front idler with the angle blade, moved almost nothing. Here we measured the distance from the idler to a frame member, seems to be about an inch longer than the other side. The track tensioner ram is fully collapsed, we removed the zerk fitting and forced all the grease out by sitting it under an excavator bucket to compress it. We checked that the tensioner is seated inside the big giant spring coupling with no debris. What are we missing?
Did you loosen or remove the grease fitting in the adjust cylinder? Remove the whole valve assembly
On my Cat there's a separate bolt to loosen about half a turn to relieve pressure from the track adjuster. They warn not to loosen it too much. The rod from the idler should slide in the barrel if everything is loosened. With the new rod you can probably leave the grease fitting and valve assembly off to let the rod slide all the way in. Hydraulic cylinders can be hard to push together too if there's only a small orifice to let air escape.
I unscrewed the zerk fitting and left it off, didn't seem to compress any more, even when we took it out, set the mini-ex bucket on it until it lifted the mini-ex tracks off the ground. The piston inside seems to be bottomed out, we stuck a wire in there and seemed to hit the piston. I didn't see any other adjustment on the adjuster ram. It sits in a cup on the front of the big spring, I thought maybe it popped out of the cup, but it didn't.
Did you adjust the idler shims and mounting height on a spot on the frame that was worn and now you're trying to push that idler to a spot where the frame is thicker and you're wedging it tight? Can you remove the rod in the tensioner and freely move the idler to connect your track? Trying to eliminate individual potential issues...
Nope, putting the idler back together was weirdly easy, and it slides nicely Thanks all for your help on the idler! If I had the track bolted together I'd almost have an 1150 to go grade roads with too!
Is the rod/piston new and perhaps longer than the original maybe for a long track machine?
The grease nipple / zerk fitting needed a 3/4" socket not 7/16"? Hence, you removed the valve & not just the nipple? Correct?
Can you post a pic of the adjust cylinder where the grease zert is?
It's the same adjuster ram and fork, we didn't change anything on it. We pulled the whole zerk and little pipe extension out, reached down inside with the little pick thing and seems like we touched the piston, not sure though. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow if it's not pouring down rain like today. I plan to call the dealer tomorrow and see if he has any ideas. This guy seems to have a different way to do it with a mini-ex, not sure I want to try that really just yet:
Were ther any washers (5/8") between the side keeper plates & the old idler carriers? That needs to be checked & given clearance as well.
Yeah, if the side keepers jam would stop the rod from retracting all the way. You could loosen them off to see if that's the problem and then put the appropriate washers in.
May also want to pull covers off the right side and make comparison measurements to narrow down possibilities on what is "too long" right now on the left. And for a long shot since I don't know how long you've owned your machine, count the number of track links to ensure someone didn't shorten it to get over on a repair.
There are a few shims behind the bolt shown in the black box on #61, and the idler slides back and forth nicely when the track isn't on. Here's the whole layout of the adjuster, idler, spring and dirt. The adjuster sits inside a cup on the end of the spring which is about an inch deep, and there's no debris behind it.
I think youre just caught on an edge of a worn area or something, look it all over again.
I cleaned the other track adjuster off and measured the distance from the idler surface to the frame. They're both about the same with the right track on and tightened. It just seems the left track adjuster won't collapse enough. Can I take it apart and put a new seal kit in it, basically rebuild it, and get the crud out of the bottom just like a normal cylinder? I'm pulling on it pretty hard, I still need the track to go another 2 inches.
I found something! I took the zerk fitting and riser out, which normally allows a bunch of grease to come out when the track is tight, but below that there's a check valve inside a fitting, which probably slows it down when there's little tension. So I removed that too now, and hopefully that'll allow me to compress the thing more, that would be awesome.
Hey, it worked! I was able to attach a couple come-a-longs to the tracks, start pulling, and a bunch of grease is coming out, and they're compressing! Woohoo! When it's light again I'll try to bolt the gator link back to the grouser and see it she'll drive