Hey everyone, I've decided to join an equipment forum because I've been trying to get my Case to start for weeks now with zero progress, and I'm hoping someone out there can help. The tractor is a 1973 Case 350 crawler with a 188 engine. So some history...the tractor ran perfectly for countless years up until January of 2019. I live in Michigan so one day in January it was about 20F outside and I wanted to plow some snow. I had the case plugged in and it started with no problem in that cold weather, about 30 seconds of run time the engine started sputtering. That's when I saw a stream of diesel fuel spraying out of the return line via a loose return line fitting at the number one injector. Once I noticed the fuel leak it was too late, the engine sputtered and died. So when I found that the return line fitting was not even finger tight I grabbed some wrenches and tightened all the return line fittings, I'm guessing they just came loose from all the vibration through the years. I tried getting the engine started for the next half hour but nothing happened. Not wanting to be in the cold weather anymore I gave up and let the tractor sit until spring. Fast forward to this month. I've replaced the fuel filters, filled the fuel tank, bled the filters, bled the line from the filters to the injection pump, loosened all the injector lines and cranked the engine until fuel sprayed out, but this engine still refuses to start. I can get it running on a mixture of wd40 and starting fluid sprayed into the air intake so I'm thinking the compression is good and I find it hard to believe that all four injectors failed at the same time. When I crank the engine with the injector lines open I do get fuel at all four injectors but its just a small dribble of fuel, I've read that this is normal. Then I turned my attention to the return line after reading all kinds of stories about "mouse turds" turns out this Roosa Master fuel pump doesn't have the return line check ball, its just a normal tee fitting that screws into the top of the pump. I've blown the lines clear from the pump to the injectors and from the pump to the tank and it just doesn't look like the return lines are plugged. So that's where I'm at, I'm starting to think that the pump itself went out and isn't putting out the required 2600psi to open the injectors but what confuses me is that I do get some smoke from the exhaust pipe when I turn the engine over (I guess that could be engine oil left on the cylinder walls). Also I'm confused as to why the engine died in the first place from a return line leak. I've read that people often open the return line and let the fuel dump on the ground to get the engine running when they have a plugged return line. I would be extremely grateful if anyone has any suggestions. Also sorry for the novel.
It sounds like you had at least three different things going wrong at the same time when it died back in January. None of them might be relevant any more. I can't think of any reason it won't start, so I'd start with the basics. Are you getting any air out of the injection lines or bleeding the pump? Wait! did you loosen the injection lines AT the INJECTORS? You need to do that to get the air out of the lines themselves. Take it easy with the starting fluid, a tiny bit while the engine is already turning only. On second thought, wait till it's warm again and don't use any starting fluid.
I need the # off the pump name plate.. While your out there getting it.. have a look on the backside of the pump & MAKE SURE the stop lever is ALL THE WAY in the run position.. That 1 sentence about the return line is alittle confusing.. u said it doesn't LOOK LIKE the return is clogged..?? U DID blow it out, right? How much fuel is in the tank.?? 5 gallons aint gonna cut it..
Yes I loosened the injector lines at the injectors themselves and I dont see any bubbles when i crank it just some dribbling fuel. As for the starting fluid I only used it a few times but not before spraying a liberal amount of wd40 in the intake first to hopefully keep the cylinders lubed. I just wanted to see if the engine would start at all.
I can get the pump number tomorrow morning, the stop lever is definitely all the way in the run position. I did blow thru all the return lines with compressed air, all of the lines are clear I get air all the way back to the tank. I filled the tank up to about 90% full with clean new diesel.
First off: quit spraying anything in the intake!!!! Like delmer said it looks like you got more than one thing going on here.... the return line leaking was probably just a coincidence... the cold temps more than likely had more to do with the motor dying either from varying amounts of water where they shouldn't be or good ole bio-diesel gelling up in front of the IP either of which probably caused the IP to run itself dry. So now you need to force prime the IP and get fuel moving and all of the air out of anywhere it might be hiding.
& seeing it sat.. the metering valve might be stuck.?? easy enough to check.. 3 screws & the top cover comes off.. You can try to start it w/ the cover off, but it makes a pretty big mess.. If u don't know what the MV is or what it does or supposed to do.. google is ur friend.>> "Stanadyne/RoosaMaster MV"
I own a Cat 350 for like 3 weeks now! LOL However I have worked on a few cummins diesels in my day the injection system is about identical The advice from Ronsii sounds like the ticket after all you describe and have tried. FORCE prime the injection pump and get the fuel moving, any trapped air and it wont start.......
Ok so a small update this morning I went and took the top cover off of the pump, the pump cavity was only half full of fuel: I sucked the remaining fuel out and checked the metering valve, it rotates nice and freely. I then cranked the engine over to watch the fuel fill the cavity and as the fuel level rose it started making a ton of bubbles: And that's where I'm at. I'm guessing the bubbles aren't supposed to be there. I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say force bleed the pump. I have pressurized the fuel tank before with compressed air to bleed the fuel filters and then again to try and start it but I got nowhere. Also here is a picture of the pump tag:
Good info.. You are correct, the 42AJ does NOT take a return connector {check ball}.. So u know the mv is free but your concerned over the bubbles.. me too. lol How do the rubber lines look.?? brittle?? How about any rubber grommets.?? split or hard.?? How about loosening all the lines AT THE INJECTORS while u have the tc off & see if u get any spurts of fuel AT the loosened lines.. I have 1 more test for ya.. Take off the INLET line & unscrew the 3/4 "transfer pump pressure regulator".. its the gizmo that the inlet "FITTING" screws into.. U can leave the fitting in.. BE CAREFUL when u take it out..!!! Because, if its what I think it is, the guts will fall out.. There should be a rubber PLUG in the bottom of it..{black}.. Newer pumps have a steel plug.. that doesn't come out.. Check it out & see.. IF its good, LUBE the oring on the top & screw it back in.. NOT SUPER tight.. it'll snap off & then your done for the day..
Alright so I still get fuel spraying out at all four injector lines, at the injectors, even with the top cover off. I went ahead a pulled out the pressure regulator: There is a steel plug, spring, and adjustment screw in the bottom of it...I pushed on the steel plug and it moves up and down freely.
Oh and also the bubbles in the pump cavity go away once the fuel level rises to about 1/3 full in the cavity so I'm thinking the bubbles are meaningless since that cavity is always full of fuel.
Except that cavity was NOT full of fuel. Figure that out before you do anything with the pump or injectors that thepumpguy doesn't specifically tell you to check. How about the filter? is the seal perfect on that? did it get twisted? two seals on top of each other? I'd take apart everything from the tank to the injection pump, and blow something through any lines, just because air blows through, doesn't mean it's not full of junk that will block fuel. Get the line to flow clean bubble free fuel, then hook it back to the injection pump and see what happens.
True the cavity was not full...when I bolted the top cap back on I manually filled the cavity through the return fitting and so far it has stayed full. Both the fuel filters are sealed up tight and I dont see any leaks from the fuel feed side of the system. Tomorrow I will remove the fuel feed line from the pump and pressurize the fuel tank again and observe how much fuel spewes from the line. I'm still thinking there's air somewhere between the fuel inlet to the pump and the injectors but I can't believe it's this difficult to bleed it...its supposed to be a self bleeding pump. Once I filled the cavity with fuel and tightened all the return lines back up I loosened the injector lines again and did see some bubbles from the lines so i kept cranking till the bubbles were gone and it definitely seems like there's a stronger fuel flow at the injectors now but the darn thing still wont fire.
That didn't fix the problem, or explain why it wasn't full when you had already bled it. You won't see a vacuum leak that's sucking air. Pressurizing the tank is a handy trick, but it won't solve your problem either. It might get you going until next January... Does this have any transfer pump? or does it use the injection pump to suck from the tank? or gravity feed? Either way, I don't think you're getting enough flow, or sucking air, or have a blockage still.
Did u snap a pic of the BOTTOM side of that regulator.?? U got me confused w/ your description.. u said it has a steel plug but u pressed on it & it moves freely.?? IS THERE a steel hollow plug THATS HOLDING the guts in.?? What u were pushing on is the actual piston..& theres a spring behind it, then the adjuster.. DO NOT EVER TOUCH the adjuster.. BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN..
I kinda figured the bubbles would go away once u got the fuel flowing to it.. U HAVE TO keep the lines loosened AT the injectors until they quit bubbling & u get clear fuel out W/ no bubbles/air.. THATS THE POINT of leaving them loose.. its called BLEEDING the air from the lines.. Are u TURNING this engine FAST ENOUGH.?? Try hooking up a "booster" or hook it up to your wifes vehicle.. U don't wanna run YOUR battery down do ya.?? Lol
Supply pump pressure ok ?
There is no transfer pump from the tank to the filters, all the information I've found says it's a gravity fed system. I'm gonna take a look at the little fuel bowl below the fuel shutoff under the tank, my dad had that apart while we were changing the fuel filters. I'll snap a photo of it tomorrow after work. Other than the piston, spring, and adjuster there was nothing else in there. I was pushing on the piston from the bottom side and it was moving freely. Out of curiosity what happens if you turn that adjuster? Because I definitely did I took it apart to check for debris, but put it back to where it was. I've been bleeding these injector lines for about 2 weeks off and on now, I have a brand new starter as of last month, and a battery charger hooked up to the tractor at all times. The thing actually cranks pretty fast. I have a pole barn where I work on cars so I have almost every kind of tool a mechanic would need. Problem is I was a heavy tech at a Chrysler dealer for 7 years and now I'm transmission test engineer for a major automotive supplier so I'm pretty mechanically inclined but diesel engines have never been my forte, I'm pretty dumb when it comes to diesel. I know this all sounds pretentious but I dont mean it to come off that way. But now you guys know I'm not a dentist who splurged and bought a tractor lol. That all said thanks to everyone for all the help so far...its gotta be something stupid/simple that's keeping this engine from firing.
We get you, and we believe you. It's just that you've tried all the common stuff, it still won't work, and what do you do now? " I'm gonna take a look at the little fuel bowl below the fuel shutoff under the tank, my dad had that apart..." That's one place I'd be looking, you should get a stead stream of fuel draining every where you open it up, depending on the filter and head pressure of course.
That's the thing...I do, If I open the bleed screw on the top of the fuel filters I get a constant stream of bubble free fuel, if I open the inlet line at the fuel pump I get a constant stream of bubble free fuel. It seems unlikely but if that fuel bowl isnt sealed 100% the pump won't get as much fuel as it needs...I just feel like I would see bubbles or at least a leak under the fuel tank. I'm gonna pressurize the tank and look for leaks and bubbles...again lol
Something else I noticed is that when I take the return line off of the pump I have fuel coming out of it from the tank. I'm assuming this is normal because the tank is higher than the pump and when the engine is running the slight pressure in the return line overcomes gravity and dumps fuel into the tank.
maybe a rubber hose collapsing internally under higher flow? Either that or thepumpguyfigures out what's wrong inside your pump.
I dont know if there are rubber lines inside the pump but all of the external fuel lines are metal. They built them right in the 70s lol
This post has nothing to do with the thread but I figured I'd post a picture of her, it's been in my family since the early 80s when my dad bought it. My grandpa rebuilt the engine in the early 90s. He knew the whole machine like the back of his hand, could probably fix this problem with ease but unfortunately he now has dementia and doesn't even know who I am anymore. I'll fix her no matter what the cost.
OK back to the regulator.. WHAT was holding the guts in??{piston & spring} There has to be either a black rubber plug or a steel plug.. From the pic. it def. doesn't have a rubber plug that I could see.. IF NOTHING is holding the guts in>Look in the hole where the reg. came from.. u can remove the screw plug in the bottom of it & look for the black rubber plug..
I'll snap a few more pictures of it after work today. But all that was inside was a threaded hexhead plug with a tiny hole in the middle, a spring behind that, and a small steel cylinder piece pushed down by the spring. The hole in the pump that I took it out of was completely empty
DUDE.. your NOT answering my question.. is there or isn't there a friggin PLUG.?? WHAT is holding the guts in the sleeve.??!!!
I'm not sure how else to put this...the threaded adjuster screw is holding the "guts" in. The threaded adjuster screw holds in the spring and piston...that's all that's in there, there's no rubber piece, there's nothing in there but a piston, and a spring. And they are held inside by a threaded adjuster screw That's a view straight down into the fuel inlet...that hex is the threaded adjuster screw, under that is the spring and under that is the piston. There was absolutely nothing else in there.
WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE.??!!!!!!! I KNOW whats in there.. I've been rebuilding pumps for 30 f'n YEARS..!!! I don't know how to explain it to YOU.. what is on the other side, HOLDING THE GUTS IN..??
A ridge built into the sleeve, it keeps the piston from going all the way thru. The hole on the backside is smaller than the piston.
Dam.. that was like pullin teeth.. THAT is the STEEL plug.. that takes the place of the RUBBER plug.. I THOUGHT the rubber plug might have blown out, which is very common & that's what your problem "might be".. OK.. lets move on.. Did anyone say anything about removing the adjuster,>>> I think not.. U were specifically told NOT to remove or touch the adjuster..!! How do u KNOW u got it back in the same place.?? what did u measure it with.?? a stick.?? Sorry dude.. I get alittle pizzy when I'm TRYING TO HELP people & they don't follow directions..
Do me/you a favor & turn it over & compress the piston as far as it will go & snap a pic of THAT position.. In the slotted part of the sleeve. I can get a good idea of the pressure based on the compressed position of the piston.. yeah, I'm THAT good.
Hey I'm a mechanic, it's in my nature to take things apart and try to figure out how they work...even if it mean screwing something up, plus I took it apart before you said to never touch it. I'll post a pic of the compressed piston after work today. Anyway sorry about the confusion, I was looking for an actual plug, i figured that metal ridge was just a part of the whole piece.
Following along, hoping to see you get this sucker fired up again. This forum is invaluable it can be tough being an internet mechanic, hang in there on both sides!! Sorry to hear about your dad, my folks are getting up there too, My dad gave me his John Deere 650 compact tractor, I will keep that thing forever!! If my kid ever gets rid of it I will haunt him!!
It almost opens the hole all the way
You got it pretty dam close .. It should work fine.. Sorry for all the shouting..
Is it possible that the fuel supply hose & the fuel return hose has been swapped over inadvertently / by mistake?
No problem man, I get the same way. Tools usually go flying when I get angry in the garage lol.
Not really, both lines are hard metal lines. Supply line is about 3/8" tubing and the return line is about 1/4" tubing. All pre-bent to go to one place.
I'm shifting my train of thought on this tractor from fuel to mechanical. I'm gonna pull the valve cover today and take a look at the rockers and springs ect. Does anyone know what compression tester I need for the 188D? It doesn't have glow plugs so I know I need to pull the injectors. Anytime I search for pencil style fuel injector compression tester I just get a bunch of random stuff from Google. I'm starting to wonder if starting the engine on that cold of a day was too much for some possibly already brittle piston rings.
Pulling the valve cover is a great idea, get somebody to crank it to see that they all go up down in turn. If they do, I wouldn't bother with a compression test on an engine like this. It ran fine right up till dying, and has run on starting fluid, you have a fuel problem (since it ran on starting fluid, I guess there's not much use in pulling the valve cover, but it's easy) We still haven't figured out why the injection pump wasn't full.
This is my same train of thought, it runs on ether so compression should be good. But does it run on ether because ether is much more volatile than diesel? But I'm also thinking unless 2 or more pistons have holes in them it should at least run with a bad misfire. I'm still going to pull the valve cover today and check all that out, its extremely easy to do on this machine. I'm also going to check the amount of fuel flowing from the tank to the first fuel filter.
If you are going to pull the valve cover then make sure all your push rods are in good shape and not bent. Also make sure that each valve when it compresses returns all the way back to the top.
Right, I'm expecting to find the valve lash way off, it hasn't been adjusted since the early 90's when my grandpa re-sleeved the motor. Luckily the specs label on the valve cover is completely readable.
Well I've been screwing around with the tractor for a few hours now. Took the valve cover off, everything is good. Blew air thru the fuel line between the tank and fuel filters, fuel flow is good. Then I pressurized the tank and bled from the tank to the filters, the filters, the filters to the pump, and the line up at the injectors. I have steady bubble free fuel everywhere all the way up to the injectors and yet the engine just wont fire...
Might have to bite the bullet and call someone.
Is the engine cranking over fast?
So I think I just verified the problem is not fuel, I pulled the #4 fuel injector out of the engine and cranked the engine with it pointing away from me and wouldn't u know there's a nice mist of fuel spraying out the tip of the injector. Yes I know how unsafe this is but I just had to know if the injectors were spraying. Sadly this really only points to compression. I gotta find a compression tester but I think I might have to face the music and starting looking into re-sleeving kits.
Check out the Harbor Freight Master compr. kit.. it has the correct adaptor & gauge.. Costs alittle over 100.00
That's the one I was looking at I just wasn't sure if they had the right adapter. Thanks for the info!
I'm assuming u have the Pencil Injectors?? I know that adaptor is in there.. Not sure about the other "Fat" style.. Its the 149.99 kit.. if u go to the site, its the 2nd adapt.to the right of the gauge.
Correct they are the pencil style injectors...this is the kit, right?
Yes.. u see the 2nd one to the right of the gauge.?? that's your adaptor.. & unless u have a manual to tell u what the comp. is supposed to be.. anything over 300 psi will fire a diesel engine.. BE CARFUL taking the inj. out.. if u bend them.. then they're junk.. & u cant put them back in.. Well u can.. but they wont fire.. {junk..broke} I would suggest taking them all out & hooking them back up to the lines like u did that 1.. & SEEING if they ALL fire.. THEN do your compr. test.. Don't forget to pull the STOP when your doing the comp. test.. otherwise you'll get wet with fuel squirting out the lines.. Once u do the test.. go back & redo it, but this time.. squirt oil in the hole.. & see how much it raises the compression.. IF it substantial.. 100-150-175psi.. u got bad or stuck rings.. Let us know cuz theres a "trick" to getting them unstuck.. Ancient Chinese Secret.!!! shhh.!!
BTW> HF has 20% OFF coupons on their database.. if that eases the pain a little.. U "could" buy the pieces individually..DIESEL compr. guage.. NOT GASOLINE & pencil inj. adaptor but u have to get a fitting on the adaptor that MATCHES your gauge.. & once u find the adaptor that fits into the compr. gauge, you have to make sure it fits the inj. adaptor.. THAT would be a Royal PITA.. U could always make some $$ w/ the kit, hiring yourself out doing compression tests.?? Look in your local Craigs List to see if anyone is selling 1.. I know a lot of people who buy it, use it once & sell it.. THATS how I got mine..
Good idea I have to remove all the injectors anyway to do the compression test so I might as well see if all 4 of them fire. If it doesn't rain I'll pull the remaining injectors after work today. #4 was stuck in there pretty good but it doesn't look to be bent or damaged, the injectors themselves are actually pretty cheap from Case, my dad already found replacement injectors because he wanted to replace them right off the bat but I knew there was no way all four injectors crapped out at the exact same time. I'm still having a hard time believing that this engine all of a sudden went from running great to not having enough compression to fire even one cylinder, I've never seen anything like that without some kind of catastrophic engine failure... I'm actually in the process of building a performance Chevy 350 engine right now and when I pulled it apart I found burnt valves, broken springs, loose/worn rocker arms, four cylinders had broken compression rings, most of the pushrods were worn out, and the carb was filled with gelled fuel and yet that engine still ran...
I still feel like there is something in the fuel system that is being missed. 4 cylinders failing on compression at the same time is highly unlikely providing the timeline you have given when the engine ran fine. The fact that it will attempt to fire when you use ether still has me wondering. I may have missed it but has the injector pump timing been checked at all? Has the fuel supply pressure been checked? It doesn't take a lot of things for the engine to run...……..free available air supply to the intake manifold, compression to create heat for the fuel to fire, and the proper amount of fuel at the right time. 1 of these isn't happening.
Lol.. I know whatcha mean.. The "tool" to get the inj. OUT is around 100.00.. its a slide hammer w/ an adaptor on it that has 2 legs at the bottom that slide into the slots on the injector.. put the legs in the slots & "hammer" it UP.. U can resell it TOO.. I'm going thru this RIGHT NOW w/ another customer.. I loaned him my inj. puller & tested his injectors.. & found him a set of 4 for 94.00 on ebay.. f/ship, no tax. If u wire wheel the surface right above the clamp, theres the manuf. P#.. just do a search on THAT P#.. NOT the BH mdl or the year.. THE MANUF. P#.. THEN compare it to any more info u have.. yr/model. HE HAD 3 of a 20348 injector & 1- 19993.. lol They all supers. to a 20671.. I just thought that info. could be useful.??
V.. U forgot "a loose nut behind the wheel".. hahaha I forgot to mention I've seen this before.. the customer let his machine sit {case 580} while he attempted to rebuild or should I say, TOTALLY f-up his inj. pump.. for just a couple of weeks & when I got the pump straightened out it wouldn't start.. did a compr. test & it was WAY low.. squirted oil in the cylinders & it jumped to almost 400.!!! He swore up & down that it had ran just a few weeks ago.. so I told him about the ATF & Acetone mix & a week later he sent me a video of the tractor STARTING & RUNNING..
I just have this feeling that this is one of those that techs with experience would have this engine running within 5 minutes of reaching the job. I have seen this so many times I cant even count them.
Lol.. we got 3 pgs of diagnostics & are no further along.. not good.. I guess we're further along.. we know that the trans. pump regulator piston is "close"..??.. lol & we got fuel up to & squirting outta 1 or 2 injectors.. Whoops. I just made it 4 pgs..
^^^^^^ LOLLL
I have "experienced Tech" work to do.. I'll check back in later this week.. BTW> if u find the compr. WAY LOW.. mix up a container of ATF & Acetone {50/50}..add enough to cover the piston & run down around the rings.. THEN, LET IT SIT about a week & keep adding to it.. Then, with the injectors STILL OUT.. crank the engine to blow any garbage & residual mix, out of the cylinders.. Reinstall the injectors or new injectors & BLEED the system of air.. leaveing the lines loose at the injectors till they squirt fuel.. then tighten.. & see what happens.. Good luck.
I hadn't noticed that the engine oil level had been checked. Also, wouldn't hurt to check the air intake for dust, missing filter, rats nest, etc. Not much that can go wrong that would explain the circumstances, except the pump or fuel.
The engine oil level is full, a few weeks ago I changed the engine oil and filter (engine oil was full before I changed it), hydraulic oil and filter, gearbox oil and filter, torque converter oil, transmission oil and filter, air filter, starter, battery cables, fuel filters, and completely re-wired the ignition switch, push button start, and replaced all the starter wiring. I was figuring the fuel system just needed to be bled so I went ahead and did all this other work first. Plus the starter had shorted and burned up all of the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter last summer so I was jumping the starter with a screwdriver to get the thing started.
So its been sitting since January, not running.?? I'd go thru the valve settings FIRST.. THEN do a compression test.. cuz if the valves are opening or closing to soon or to late.. THAT will effect the compression drastically.. Just a tip from your Uncle Mike..
Are you talking about the valve lash adjustment? Is that something that changes when this engine sits? This tractor is just used for around the house kind of stuff, it's gone years at a time without starting in the past but a good battery and some fresh fuel would always get it running. Last year I used it almost every day during the summer to clean up some property. But every winter it gets parked because it's an open cab. The one time I tried to use it in the winter....I broke it.
I pulled all 4 injectors and turned the engine over with them out of the engine. All 4 injectors spray fuel. However one is different from the rest and one has a broken tip: Even with the broken tip it still fires it just doesnt atomize correctly. I dont believe the injectors are my problem but I'm gonna get a set of 4 anyway. The teflon seals are pretty much toast and I had to pry pretty hard to get one of them out.
WOW.. that thing if ***.. THAT would dump fuel in the cylinder.. Pretty much the only thing that'll blow the tip off is WATER in the fuel.. & IF u look closely.. they are 2 different injectors.. What are the P#'s on ALL THE INJECTORS.. its a 5 digit # on the straight body..right at the bend for the fuel connector..
I didn't see any numbers on the injectors but I'm going to take them to a wire wheel and clean them up really good and check again. I got my brand new Harbor freight compression tester last night, hooked it up to cylinder number 4, and cranked the engine 3 times...the gauge got to 200 psi and then the tester hose that states it is rated for 4500psi blew two holes in it. Harbor Freight never fails to surprise me, now I have to go exchange it. I wish I knew how long ago that injector broke...could be months ago, even years ago. Before I took an interest in this track loader its maintenance schedule was non existent.
IF it was months, weeks or even DAYS.. THAT CYLINDER should register about 50-75 psi.. its washed down{bad}.. UNLESS your getting new injectors, keep the wire wheel away from the tip.. Just get the paint/grease off the "stem" where it bends for the line.. ON THE BODY.. I have a GOOD WAY of testing pencil injectors once they're out of the engine.. Fill a bucket w/ water & throw them in it, 1 @ a time.. the good ones will float.. Some of u guys have the worst luck w/HF tools.. I think the last "lemon" I got from them was a drill bit index full of bits for 13.00.. Now I KNOW, what do u expect for 13.00.?? BUT these actually broke IN WOOD..
THIS IS SHOCKING!
I usually have pretty good luck with harbor freight, I have a pair of 90 die grinders that are over 10 years old...cost me $8 each. I bought one of these 5 years ago: Some of the best money I ever spent, no way was I gonna spend $700+ for almost the exact same thing from snap on...its made so similar to the snap on box that I swear they're made by the same company.
I bought 2 of the 4 drawer, a few months ago.. I love'm.. I mainly work out of those 2 & leave my BIG box in the corner holding all the "special" tools.
I finally got a compression tester that works. I tested each cylinder 3 times dry then 3 times wet. Cyl 1 dry: 230psi wet: 380psi Cyl 2 dry: 240psi wet: 350psi (broken injector) Cyl 3 dry: 180psi wet: 250psi Cyl 4 dry: 250psi wet: 450psi I dont know what the specs are on this engine yet but those dry pressures look a little low. I may have weak rings and cyl 3 might have some scoring. Like I said before I'm no diesel expert...would those dry psi readings keep the engine from starting? Even if cyl 3 was a dead hole wouldn't the other 3 fire? Hey thepumpguysc, do you think I would benefit from the atf/acetone mixture or would I be pissing in the wind?
Also I got the injector numbers: Cyl 1 (different from the other 3): 20671•A2 Cyl 2 (broken injector): 18054L2 Cyl 3: 18054L2 Cyl 4: 18054L2
Those numbers are pretty bad, and they might keep it from starting. I'm surprised it doesn't run once it starts on ether though. I wouldn't tear it apart just on those numbers yet. Especially if it wasn't burning oil bad, or blowing oil all over. Compression is kinda funny in older motors, they can run better than they should based on the compression numbers. I'd like see if it starts with the help from the oil, and how it runs then. We'll see what thepumpguy says. Can't wait to hear some good news on this one.
You and me both, I'm hoping the rings are stuck...or something and maybe I can get the compression numbers up enough without tearing the engine down. If not I might be able to hone the liners and just re-ring the pistons. I'm going to have to check if the intake pre-heater still works. The element is still there but it hasn't been hooked up for years. If I'm not mistaken hot intake air can help start a diesel with lower compression. Maybe with the pre-heater and a new set of injectors I can finally get this thing to fire again.
WHAT EXACTLY do u have to lose.?? try the mixture & wait a week.. in the meantime order new injectors. BTW> anything over 300psi will fire a diesel engine.. U might just have stuck rings.. I've never seen a jump THAT hi before.
I'm going to give it a shot. I'll pick up some acetone today and start the process. It'll be nice to take a break from this damn thing for a week anyway, I have about 4 other projects that I've been neglecting because of this little Case.
So the rings get stuck on the piston and refuse to help close the gap or? The acetone mixture helps to free them from the sides of the pistons so they can float again? <------------------------watching and learning.
I believe that's the idea, I've heard of people doing this before. I think the acetone mixture is supposed to eat away at any carbon or gunk that might be keeping the rings from moving freely. I've heard of people using the atf/acetone mixture, PB blaster, straight diesel fuel...never actually done it myself...till now. It's funny 3 weeks ago I pulled a chevy 350 engine from my 1986 K10 because no matter what I did it always had a misfire, among many other things I found that the previous owner had the block bored .020 over but then decided to use standard piston rings...so the rings that weren't broken had a gap of .080+, each cylinder had a leak down of 40%-60%. 2019 seems to be year of the piston ring for me.
When you do go to start it. Crank it over several seconds with injectors out to clear the cylinders a little. I'd be using a block heater, you can use a hair dryer in the intake also. An 80 degree afternoon should be plenty, but it never hurts to get it a little warmer. Every time you crank it to move the acetone/atf around, and then to clear it, leave the injection pump on and see if you get any more bubbles. I like to leave the injector nut loose a couple turns, it seems to make it easier to see the bubbles vs spray.
hopefully the pre-heater still works but if not I'll hit the intake with my heat gun. I'll plug the block heater in too.
Its good u have a "heat gun".. most folks don't so we always say, use a hair dryer.. Just pull off the air cleaner & point it straight in the intake.. Yes> the "mix" eats the carbon away if they're stuck in the piston grooves.. it works.. seen it w/ my own eyes. Like I said earlier, "I" did the compr. test on the guys engine & THEN I did it wet.. toldm to TRY the same thing I told u.. about 2 weeks later he sends me a video of it starting & running.. so ya never know..
I thought about pouring some Berryman's Chem-Dip Carburetor Cleaner down in the cylinders, I've dunked whole pistons in that stuff and within an hour any trace of carbon on that piston was dissolved.
That would work but you had better fill those cylinders with oil after the carb cleaner does its thing or you will be cranking a way too dry motor.
U were told the right way.. but u go ahead & do it any old way u want to..
After looking at my can of berryman's it wouldn't be a good idea to use it...it has a little bit of grit to it. I poured in the first of the atf/acetone...we'll see what happens.
Just don't get antsy.. give it time to work.. a WEEK MINUMUM.. & add to it every 2-3 days.. U might wanna keep the old readings handy so u can compare the old readings to the re-do.. Just blow all that crap out using the starter & recheck the compression.. I KNOW that guys machine I checked didn't have a comp. tester & just blew his mix out & reinstalled his injectors & fired it up.. MAYBE there was still enough residual oil mix in the cylinders, that it held compression.. enough to ignite.?? I would check the compression afterwards if it were mine.. just to see if I jumped the gun or not.. IF the compr. jumps up 50psi or 100 psi.. I would re-do the mix another round/week or 2.. LIKE I SAID>> it takes 300 psi to start a diesel on its own..{compression ignition} So THATS the # your shooting for.. MINIMUM.. See ya in a week or 2.. TPG
You are just trying to get rid of him, BRILLIANT! Just joking , no wadded panties please.
Good 1 FB.. Lol
I thought FOR SURE u were gonna write that u tried to start the BH & it didn't start.. I know its probably killin ya, not to try.. lol.. Its either hide the keys for a week or buy a 700.00 rebuild kit & a bunch of "special tools"..
Actually I'm kind of relieved to have some time away from the ol case, I started working on it because I thought it was a simple case of bleeding the fuel system, I remember thinking "I'll have this running in a couple of hours!" Then it turned into a whole thing that interrupted another engine build I'm in the middle of and also a M16A1 clone build that I'm in the middle of. So now that the Case is..."de-carboning" I've been able to get back to those other things.
Well it looks like it's time to admit defeat. Today I re-did the compression test, all cylinders now have 300-310psi compression dry. I installed the new injectors and bled the fuel system. Still nothing. I have fuel, I have compression and yet it refuses to start. Maybe the timing gears stripped and skipped a few teeth...I dont know but at this point I think im done fooling around with it.
This is just a suggestion. Put #1 cylinder TDC and check the injection pump timing. 8 degrees BTDC. If it is OK remove the pump and send it South Carolina for a rebuild. It is the only thing left that can be the problem.
If it is in time and getting fuel and air then it should run. I'm concerned about the cranking speed of the engine. It has to crank at a quick pace to create the compression and heat needed to fire the fuel off.
If has been Quite awhile since ran last you are probably fighting loss of compression due to cylinder dry down. A little sniff of ether on a rapid roll while cranking and it should bust off. Timing gear strips in these and it would likely Not be cranking. Does this have a Stanadyne Injection pump on it, could have broken the flex coupler where the pump is not delivering.
I read this thread twice since Saturday. It seems like everything possible has been covered. The fact that he can get it to run on WD40 leads me to think there is an issue with the IP. I would maybe install another set of fuel filters just in case there is something weird going on with one of them. And I would dismantle the glass bowl filter and make sure there isn't air intrusion there.
I do want to check the timing of the pump but I believe that the pump is working just fine. When I installed all 4 injectors upside down all 4 injectors fired so the pump is making at least 2600psi to overcome the injector needle. It's got a brand new starter and I keep and charger on the batteries at all times. It actually cranks really fast. It cranked much slower with the old starter and still started. I'll post a video later showing the cranking speed.
So you soaked the cylinders for a week, and then got 300 PSI from each dry. Did you add oil and retest? Are you getting any mist out of the exhaust when it's cranking?
I did spray a little bit of oil before I tried to re-start it. For the first few cranks I did get some oil mist and what looked like small chunks of carbon out of the exhaust but after cranking for a while that cleared up and now I'm just getting a little bit of white smoke like before.
Do us a favor and hit the engine with a bit of starting fluid and tell us what happens.
That doesn't determine if the correct amount of fuel is being delivered to the injectors. Do as Vetech suggests and give it some ether. Don't go crazy with it !!!! Maybe remove the air filters also. They may be soaked with WD40 if it was squirted into them. Is there any chance something is in the intake manifold ? Seems like a silly question but I saw a rag in one once.
Like Tinkerer says... check the entire air intake system I have seen birds and squirrels move complete nests in literally hours!!! If you leave an open hole for em' to sneak in they will fill it
This is very true and could be my problem. I took off the air filter housing a few weeks ago to remove the valve cover, I haven't put it back on since so the intake manifold is wide open. I sprayed some ether in the engine on Saturday, I get about a second of run time and a ton of white and black smoke from the exhaust. White being the burned fuel and black being the unburned fuel that's just pooling in the cylinders from all the cranking. I haven't tried pointing my heat gun in the intake yet to warm up the air but I'd be surprised if that's all it needed.
Also when I replaced the injectors two of the return line grommets at the t-fittings on top of the injectors were in poor shape and they leak pretty bad now. But everything I've read about this fuel system says that that shouldn't matter because the return line need zero pressure for this system to run. I have new grommets on order.
To BE SURE about the return lines, trace them out & if ANY of the lines go anywhere other than back to the fuel tank.. GET THEM FIXED, Pronto.. If they're leaking fuel, then they're sucking air.. I haven't gone back thru all these pages but.. U REALLY NEED TO check the timing.. IF its 180* out of time.. it'll white smoke & not start.. but the only way that could happen is, if the pump was off at some point in time..
I have never seen a diesel exhaust that is both white and black like you describe. I do not advocate using a lot of ether. But , there are times (quite few actually) that I have used a lot of it with good results. First I made absolutely sure the transmission is in neutral and the brakes are set hard. Set the throttle wide open and the injector pump shut-off is in full run position. Start cranking the engine and only then give it a sniff of ether. When it starts keep giving it enough ether so that it will get to at least 1500 rpms or more. Be super careful you don't give it enough ether that it starts to knock !!!! Let it run several seconds like that. If the dam thing doesn't take off on diesel fuel and go to full throttle speed you have major problems in the fuel delivery system. For all the naysayers about that method ,I can say that I ran a service truck for seven years for a very large earth-moving contractor. In that time I changed literally thousands of fuel filters and had to deal with priming problems sometimes on a daily basis. That is when I figured out how to use ether in the manner I described. I never damaged an engine doing it.
Right, I'm sure that the leaking return lines aren't helping my cause but I do have new grommets on order, and they definitely all go back to the tank. To the best of my knowledge the fuel pump has never been off in at least the past 20-30 years. I do want to check timing, I'll have to take the valve cover back off and watch for cylinder one to get to TDC on the compression stroke. I'll have to guess-timate where 8 degree past TDC is because I cant see the crank pulley without pulling the radiator but if the pump lines line up just past TDC I know its good. I'll post some pictures tonight of fuel line routings and ect...maybe someone will see something that I'm not.
Same here Tinkerer.. But u know these dam kids.. lol Being in the "fuel system business" its awful hard to break out the can of quick start .. because ITS MY JOB to FIX the fuel system problems.. I DO LIKE IT when the customer says, lets just spray it.. * I look at him & say.. how about I JUST FIX IT..??
Arent the marks on the flywheel.?? thru an access plug..?? & IF the pump hasn't been off is 20-30 years, THATS the problem..??
So the engine kicks with ether. Are you sure the fuel is good? When you say your getting fuel out of the injector tips, is it atomizing the fuel ? Something is being missed.
I've actually been doing this procedure almost exactly. Full throttle, pump shut off full open and enough ether to get the engine running for a few seconds. This is actually how I got the bucket lifted all the way up for easier access to the engine. But as soon as I take the ether away the engine dies instantly. My dad used to own a construction company with about 8 or 9 heavy equipment machines, backhoes, bulldozers, excavators, compactors, ect...every once and a while someone would run one out of fuel and we almost always got them going again with a small squirt of ether...this Case on the other hand, not so much.
The pump lines line up BEFORE TDC.. NOT after.
It'll run on ether... so that says u have a fuel delivery problem.. PERIOD.. U have new injectors & half azzed compression.. enough to START a diesel anyway.. What else is left.?? timing & the inj. pump itself.. Being that old I would suspect the return line is clogged w/ flex ring.. Have u tried starting it w. ether w/ the return line OFF the top cover.?? WE KNOW it doesn't have a return connector/check ball.. so do it w/ the LINE off..
sorry couldn't help myself
I have no idea actually...if the marks are on the flywheel that will make things much easier lol. Fuel is brand new, its the same fuel being used in my dads Massey Ferguson diesel loader right now (we have a 100 gallon tank) and that runs fine. When I had the injectors out they atomized the fuel and all the injectors are brand new now since one of the old ones had a broken tip. I think thepumpguy is right, the 1973 original fuel pump is probably shot. It just confuses me because the pump will fire the injectors...but maybe its not firing enough fuel?
yes, I've tried starting it with ether and the return line disconnected from the pump top cover, I also tried starting it with ether and the pump top cover completely off. Still nothing.
I swear, this is the same type of symptoms I have seen with a broken crankshaft.
Is this your filter arraignment ? If it is, are all the parts in order ? The little round seal, spring and washer especially. No timing marks on the crankshaft dampener. They are on the flywheel.
Good possibility Vetech ! That's why I thought the timing should have been checked about five pages back in the saga of this 188. Especially when the two sets of timing marks are on oposite ends of the crankshaft.
These long threads are more entertaining
That diagram is very close, I do have the 2 filter setup like that but I'm almost certain both filters are one piece filters, like engine oil filters. My dad actually changed the filters so I'll show him this picture tonight and see if he remembers the washer and spring. I have these style filters: (this is a google image, my filters are not beat up) As for the fuel return system, mine is very close to that. The only difference is that the return line is capped after the cylinder #4 injector and there is a t-fitting on top of the pump cover that goes back to the tank, basically the same thing shown in the picture above.
Does anyone know what the timing marks on the flywheel look like? I'll check timing tonight.
I found this online...so if I take the flywheel inspection cover off there should be a pointer and a set of degree lines on the actual flywheel, and the injection pump lines should be lined up at 8 degrees past cylinder #1 TDC, correct?
The way "I" do it is>> line the lines up IN THE PUMP 1ST.. THEN look at the flywheel *'s.. DUDE.!!! "PAST" TDC.. Really?? Then that would read "ATDC".. There isn't a diesel in N. America that fires ATDC.. U want the fuel injecting into the cylinder ON COMPRESSION STROKE.. just BEFORE it gets to the top of the cylinder.. {8* BTDC} THAT WAY, it explodes sending the piston shooting down..
AND U HAVE TO ROTATE THE ENGINE IN THE CORRECT "NORMAL" ROTATION.. to properly check the timing.. Bump the key & watch the fan.. that "should be" the correct rotation of the engine.. Shut off the fuel & remove the side cover on the pump.. The pump is gravity fed so if u don't shut off the fuel at the tank, you'll drain it dry by removing the side cover on the pump.. Get a STRONG flashlite & a helper.. Turn the engine till the lines line up IN THE PUMP, THEN look at the flywheel *'s.. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other, which way u do it.. Either set the pump lines or set the flywheel *'s first.. BUT EITHER WAY, TAKE OFF THE VALVE COVER to be sure your on the right cylinder..{#1}
Right, right...I ment before TDC just got mixed up. That's what I'll do tonight...set the pump and check where the flywheel is.
Here is the other filter arrangement. Be sure the stud gasket is in place.
So I'm pretty sure she's timed. I couldn't find any marks on the flywheel but it has them on the front crank pulley.
Here's some pics of the engine...its not pretty and it's pretty much soaked in diesel fuel because of all the bleeding I've been doing...for weeks... Wide open intake Someone installed this shutoff in the return line, I have no idea why but it's been there forever. Also here is a video of it cranking, I uploaded it to YouTube because the file was too large to post here. No I'm not dumping a ton of ether in it, the can is empty so I have to find the right angle to get the last little bit out.
Also I happened to look at the bowl under the fuel shutoff just as it dripped a drop of diesel, I kept watching it and it formed a drip every 5 or so mins. You can even see the drop forming in the picture. I'm gonna order a new bowl, spring, and gasket...is this tiny drop causing the entire fuel system to fail...I dont know but at this point I'll take anything.
I seriously doubt it.. but anything is possible at this point..
Honestly I think my next move is fix the bowl leak, replace the return line grommets, completely bleed the fuel system again, and re-assemble everything I took off and if it still doesnt start I'll start looking into a good heavy equipment mechanic.
H*LL, U GOT 5000 of'm here already.!! Lol Good luck.
This is a very simple engine by design. If you have the proper compression, free air into the intake, and fuel atomized at the right time...………...there is no reason it shouldn't run. One of these 3 things isn't happening. At this point I believe you should start from scratch at the beginning. 1. Remove the hose from the intake and while cranking the engine lay your hand over the intake opening. It should have enough intake suction to feel like it will eat your hand. A good hard pull is what your looking for. 2. Go to the exhaust side now. If you have no exhaust leaks, crank the engine again and while doing so, hold your hand over the exhaust outlet. It should build enough pressure to push your hand off for the air to escape. Since the engine wont fire this should be safe to do. If it does not, then you have compression loss through the piston rings, or the valve seats (possibly a head gasket also). Since you did a compression test and had 300 psi, the compression should be good enough to fire the fuel. 3. By the pictures you have taken, providing the procedure was done correctly (turning of the crank in the proper rotation), it looks like your timing marks are good to go. 4. Now to the fuel system. You HAVE to have free unrestricted flow of fuel to the injector pump (without ANY leaks in the suction side which means the fuel bowl issue will HAVE to be corrected) especially since you do not have a supply pump. Fill the fuel tank with fresh clean fuel, follow the line from the fuel bowl all the way to the injector pump. Before you do anything else, remove the bleed screw at the top of your secondary fuel filter. You should get a good amount of fuel coming out of that bleed screw with the weight of a full tank of fuel (if not, you have a restriction between that filter and the fuel tank). Once you have good full there, install the bleed screw back in its place and remove the suction line at the injector pump. You should have the same amount of fuel coming out of that line as you did at the bleed screw (if not, you have a restriction between the filter and the outlet at the pump. Before you go any further you will need to correct any issue of blockage until you have a good flow of fuel at the pump. 5. Next step is to remove the bleed plug on your pump. In your injector pump pics it is the one with the copper washer under it. You should get fuel from there although it will be a lot less, but it should be air bubble free. Reinstall the bleed plug back in the pump. At this point we need to move to the injectors. 6. Unscrew the injector lines at each injector 3/4-1 full turn, then tap the injector line to make sure the line isn't still seated in the injector cup. Pull the engine throttle lever into full fuel, then crank the engine about 15 seconds. Fuel should SQUIRT from each connection. Im talking SQUIRT, not dribble. As each line starts to squirt fuel, once the fuel is air free, tighten that line...…...and do so through all 4 injectors. The fuel system should be bled of air at this point. OK...…..if this engine doesn't star and run at this point, SOMETHING ELSE is going on to prevent it. I have listed other things to try and check below. 1. 1st thing I would try is to install a 12V electric supply pump in the suction line between the fuel bowl and the 1st primary fuel filter. All this will do is ensure that you have supply fuel, but will also build a bit more pressure into the injector pump. This is not necessarily a proper fix and if the engine starts with it on it could mean your injector pump is at fault. 2. Gain access to where you can see the flywheel and the front crank pulley at the same time. You will need to move one end or the other (pully or flywheel) and see if they rotate together. You only need slight movement (say one starter ring gear tooth) and you will need to move it in both directions. What you are looking for is one end (again, pulley or flywheel) moving with out the other end moving. It could be very slight and I would usually do this with a dial indicator on both. This would tell me whether the crankshaft is still in one piece as designed, or the possibility of it being broken. 3. Drain the engine oil. Look for really fine particles of metal in the oil, especially on the drain plug. Use a new, or clean bucket......they can be very small and difficult to see. If nothing above has got running or has figured out the problem, it is time to throw in the towel and contact someone with more troubleshooting experience on this type of engine and fuel system. Doing anything else could be a huge waste of money and time. The absolute WORST thing you could do is start throwing expensive parts at this hoping to get a result. You HAVE to know what the problem is to properly fix this at a reasonable cost. I hope this helps!...………….but unless someone can add other thoughts, there is nothing else I can do here. This is the simplest explanation I can give.
Daaaam.. U should write a diagnostic manual.. Everyone should print that out & hang it in their shop.!!! NICE...
Vetech covered everything you need to do --heed his advice. In the video, am I the only one that sees a motor spinning really fast, like it has very low compression or, it is getting fuel but not enough to start ?
I'm w/ you Tink.. UNLESS he has another vehicle tied to that starter or a battery charge on "START".. Its spinning to fast IMO.. {no/low compression} IS that throttle all the way OPEN.?? It looks like its at low idle.. PULL IT BACK..
LMAO!!
The throttle is pulled open half way in the picture but I've also been trying to start it with the throttle all the way back. As for the fast cranking both batteries are new and fully charged with the charger still on them pumping out another 40 amps. The starter is brand new as is all the wiring from the battery to the starter and the ignition switch to the starter, its an aftermarket high torque starter, the original case starter never had that engine cranking that fast, the new starter is quite a bit smaller than the original too. I like Vetech's advice, I'm going fix the remaining leaks that I have (fuel bowl and injector return line grommets), check to make sure the fuel filters have all the correct gaskets, and then start at square one. Hopefully I'll have all my parts by early next week.
Unless you have increased the voltage to the starter it seems to be spinning awful fast . Is that vapor coming out of the exhaust unburned fuel ?
I would assume that yes there is unburned fuel coming out of the exhaust, pos sprays fuel like crazy but doesnt start...I'm sure its inevitable that I'll have to decapitate this thing and decide if it's worth sleeving it. I'll just always be baffled at the fact that 1 day she ran just fine and the next day it was just a pile of garbage. This thing has been the bane of my existence.
Welcome to heavy equipment!
Unless your compr. gauge is off by 100-200 psi, it should catch on ether, "IF" the fuel is spraying at the correct time & enough of it..
As pumpguy just said, try to get it to start on ether. I suggested that earlier and gave details on how to do it correctly . At this point you have nothing to lose by trying it. It wouldn't surprise me that it won't run ether either. I am thinking your looking at an engine that puked something when it, "sputtered and died" as you said. Vetech's broken crankshaft theory is worth serious consideration.
I noticed the u shot it, THEN cranked it.. Howsa about shooting it WHILE cranking it.. THATS HOW its done.. Just stand-up & shoot it while turning the key/ pushing a button/holding 2 wires together..?? lol Personally, when I'm alone, I like to use a starter button hooked directly to the starter.. THAT WAY I'm close to the action.. Of course if it has glow plugs u cant do that.. but that's not a factor here..
U have access to the flywheel & access to the crank.. just get into a position where u can move the crank & watch the flywheel.. Put a paint mark, chalk mark, white-out liquid.. just something that u CAN SEE on the flywheel.. & see if something snapped. I got an idea.. put a paint mark on the degree mark at your 8*.. now go move the flywheel w/ a screwdriver a smidge.. NOW GO LOOK at the * marks.. did they move.?? The flwh & the crank are a 1:1 ratio.. linked together.. so if 1 moved.. the other shoulda moved.
I've sprayed more ether into this engine in the past month than I'd like to admit, that was how I got the bucket up in the air. I sprayed a constant stream of ether in the intake, the engine ran, I pulled back on the bucket lever and the hydraulics did their thing...as soon as I stop spraying ether it dies, but it'll run all day on ether. I had no other way get the bucket/arms up and out of my way. Once I get my leaks fixed and fuel system bled for the 14,000th time I'll try Tinkerer's ether procedure. As for the broken crankshaft, I suppose its a possibility. When I checked the timing I was turning the flywheel with a screwdriver while watching the front crank pulley, I even took the alternator and bracket out of the way to wire wheel the crank pulley clean and get a better view of it and I swear it was turning at a 1:1 ratio, forward and backwards. Before I bolt the alternator back on Ill make some paint marks so I have something to reference. The engine sure felt like it had some compression when I was turning it by hand, once the valves closed I had a hell of a time turning it by hand past the compression stroke, I even had to bump the starter at times.
The fuel feed line from the tank to the fuel filters is pretty short so it should be able to be removed pretty easily and it's completely covered in grease/wet near the tank (could just be fuel from the leaking bowl). I'm going to remove that line from the tractor, clean it, and inspect it. Reading through Vetech's bleed procedure he says I should have a pretty good fuel flow from the secondary fuel filter bleed screw. I do get fuel coming out of there when its open but it doesn't seem like a strong stream. If I pressurize the fuel tank it'll spray out a good 6-8 inches from the filter. And as insane as it sounds I actually had a dream that I pulled leaves out of that fuel line, yes I had an actual dream about this tractor, it haunts me in my sleep...I think I'm starting to go crazy because of this thing.
It is critical on any engine when setting the timing marks that you DO NOT turn the crankshaft in the opposite direction if you go even a half of a degree PAST the marks you need. There is a lot of gear backlash in the timing gears and you could be off many degrees from where the true timing is supposed to be set if you turn it backwards. I still think with the problems you are having and the amount of hours on the injection pump that you should send the pump to the pumpguy. It will be the best money you will ever spend on your trackloader. One other thing, remove that valve that is cobbled into the fuel return line and see if there is something in restricting or blocking fuel flow.
When checking the timing I only went forwards with the engine (clockwise) but when checking the crank pulley movement relevant to the flywheel I went both CW and CCW. And yes if it turns out that my pump took a crap I'd love to send it to thepumpguy if he can take it. I dont know of anyone here in southeast Michigan who can rebuild these pumps and from what I've seen in my thread alone the guy knows his ****. As for the return shutoff valve, I'd like to get rid of it...I'm assuming my grandpa installed it but I'm not sure why, I'm thinking it's because the return line back feeds fuel from the tank when. Its disconnected. I'd ask him but dementia has made sure that he could never answer me.
He prob. installed it because he was getting fuel in the oil.?? The gravity pressure has a tendency to blow past the seals on older units.. & fill the crankcase up.. I'd be happy to take a look at your pump, if it comes to that..
That alone is reason enough to get it rebuilt. Sorry to read about your Grandpa's dementia. My wife has had it about six years and it is a sad thing to see how it slowly changes a person.
Just a FYI> that's why its important to shut off the fuel at the tank when not in use.. for gravity fed units w/ no return connector..{glass ball}
Sorry to hear about your wife man, it's a horrible disease that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Good to know
@frinenboard, did you give up ?? Remember, no one likes a quitter !! Lol
I spelled frickenbored wrong..
No I haven't quit, I was a little late on ordering the parts I need so I'm still waiting for them. Plus I've been really busy with some other stuff, and its been raining every other day here in Michigan so basically zero progress has been made at this point. I'll be busy with my Chevy k10 build all next week but I should be able to work on the ol' Case by next Friday. Everything I need to do shouldn't take more than a few hours.
So wow it's been like...3 months damn. Well in this time I really haven't done anything to the case tractor, I got super busy at work, started a little side project re-bluing firearms, and mainly I was just burnt out on this tractor. However over the weekend I finally installed the fuel bowl seal and replaced all of the injector return line seals so all of my fuel leaks have been stopped. I bled the system and yet again all it does is crank. So I headed up to tractor supply and bought a couple cans of "diesel safe" starting fluid. I ran that engine on an entire can of ether hoping maybe it would finally catch and run on its own (at this point I figure the compression is low enough that the engine is probably shot anyway) by the end of the can it seemed like it was actually trying to start. When I stopped spraying the idle would even out and it would run for about 4-5 seconds then die. Thinking it was just residual ether keeping it alive I shut off the fuel and then the engine would die immediately after I stopped spraying ether. It seems like it wants to start...could there still be some air trapped in the fuel system? Or am I just wasting time at this point?
Seeing this has gone on for so long.. take the top cover off the pump & have a look.. Do a search on a "Roosa Master metering valve" Your looking for a stuck mv on yours.. a pic is worth a 1000 words.. OR.. take off the top cover & move the shut-off lever & watch the movement.. the little cam should push on the mv arm to move it to the shut-off position & return on it own to the run position.. IF the mv is stuck in the shut-off position, the cam will just move & not touch anything.. Worse comes to worse, I'm available to take a look at your pump.. IF your not sure what your looking at.. send me some pics to my home email address..{easier than posting here} Good luck..
Well sad news but pretty much what I expected...so I took the pump cover off and checked the metering valve again and it's still free. So I took the intake manifold off and poured oil in each cylinder thru the intake valves to raise the compression. With the help of a little starting fluid it started and after some sputtering it actually ran for a little over 30 seconds. It sounded like crap but it was running on it's own. Its leaking so much compression into the crankcase it shot out the oil dipstick like a bullet. So that pretty much solves it. At minimum it needs to be re-sleeved. Eventually I'll take the head off and see how bad the damage is.
A dipstick that is launched like that is most likely caused by a piston with a hole in it. Do not use any ether to get it started again or bad things will happen !!
I dont think theres a hole in a piston, unless it somehow just happened, because when I checked the compression I had between 250-300 on all cylinders and over 400 with oil. A hole in a piston would should read 0. Could be a tiny hole maybe. I'm thinking piston rings are fried/broken. Either way I'm done trying to start it. I wanna disassemble the engine. As long as the head is good I should be able fix the engine. Has anyone ever honed sleeves and replaced the rings? I'm thinking if I find the sleeves in ok shape and the rings destroyed I might be able to just put a set of rings in it.
Won’t get a ring to reseat on old sleeves as cannot break the shine off them enough as well broken rings will score the crap out of them Then there are piston ring grooves most of these were square cut with typical wear making the ring grooves keystone shaped and will likely destroy any new rings in short hours of run time Gonna overhaul need to do it correct or expect the bad results
Despite it saying diesel safe, using a whole can of starting fluid to run the engine was a bad idea and likely added to your problems.
I'm not too worried about it, I already pretty much knew the engine was shot anyway. Re-sleeving really doesnt look like a difficult job and luckily the whole job can be done with the crank still installed so I dont have to pull the engine.
As long as the ether didn't hurt the crank......
Look for bent connecting rods to.
Your problems may have just been injection pump related. Having to go through the entire engine because of an injection pump problem seems counter productive.
And.... since it shot the dipstick out at least once you can assume shaft seals and such may be compromised.
Dont see how it could be. All 4 injectors fire just fine.
Using a full can of starting fluid may have caused more damage but you won't know unless you check everything. Excessive use of ether can cause a multitude of problems. If it ran on the oil in the cylinders it seems it should have ran if it was getting the proper amount of fuel at the right time.
I dont believe it was running on the oil I added to the cylinders. My idea behind the oil was to raise the compression of the cylinders temporarily. When I performed a wet compression test the cylinders all jumped up to 400+ psi. So my thought was if the engine started while the cylinders were "wet" then I'd know 100% it's a compression problem. And it did, 30 seconds or so of full throttle running (not running good but running) and once all the oil burned off it died.
The tractor at this point could be a total loss, it's so old and has been so neglected that no one wants to spend more money on it, and re-sleeving kits are not cheap. I've already saved it from a trip to the scrapyard twice. With my grandpa suffering from dementia the tractor falls to my grandma, dad, and uncle and none of them have any interest in it besides its price in scrap. So I've been trying to get it going any way possible. All which have failed lol. So I'm gonna tear it down and see what I find. If it's too far gone they get their wish and it gets hauled off. If I can fix it with a sleeve kit I'll probably buy it myself once I get an agreement that the tractor is now mine.
What was the outcome of this loader ?
Did she make hay again??? Curious if the old crawler ever lifted dirt again.
Doubtful.... I see machines like this all the time, they usually just aren't worth the money to fix them unfortunately.
I hate seeing things end up in the scrap pile! Unfortunately you probably are right :/ I have to stop scoping out pictures on the internet. Now I want one of these old machines.
Nothing wrong with an old machine, but get one knowing what it needs before you spend any time on it. Plenty of them will run and plenty will be better used for parts. It's like dating, used cars or whatever, there's a lot of junk on the market, because the good stuff goes fast, and the junk comes back on the market much more often...
frickenbored hasn't been back since his last post. I sent him a PM.
Good thing I'm married! I tend to latch on to junk and have tried to 'polish a turd' on more than one occasion. Dream goal junk yard owner with all kinds of treasures to play with and revive. Although my wife isn't too fond of that idea. I think it is in my blood. I used to run around my grandfathers junk yard when I was little. Those were the days when a part from one damaged car could be pulled to fix several different cars. Life's a little different these days when it comes to universal parts.
Hey guys, I'm not gonna lie I kinda forgot about this thread until I saw a message from Tinkerer show up in my email. So here's an update: After my last post I completely stopped trying with the old girl so she sat half torn apart under a tarp all winter. Then early this year I was too busy with work to start back up on her. Then something interesting happened...My dad has a 500 gallon fuel tank on his property full of diesel fuel that he used to use when he owned a construction company. Well that tank is where I got all the fuel for my case tractor. About two weeks ago my dad filled his Massey furguson loader with fuel from that tank and after about 100 yards it died. Turns out the tank was close to empty and after years and years of condensation there was mostly water in the tank. We drained the massey, put fresh fuel in it and problem solved. So of course I thought that might be the problem on the case. I spent a day putting the case back together, pulled the fuel bowl and drained the tank, replaced fuel filters, bled the filters till all the old red off road fuel was purged from the lines and replaced with the on road green fuel, cracked the injector lines and bled them till I saw green fuel...and wouldn't you know...it still doesn't start. Granted I didn't spend that much time bleeding the system and the fuel bowl was pissing diesel because it wasn't tight enough. But that's where I am as of now. I'm gonna bleed everything and try again but I know it won't work. It needs ring and prob sleeves. $1200.
Happy to see it didn't get scraped! It would be great to see it moving dirt again. Keep after it and you might find the missing link.
I can't bring myself to scrap it, it'll be redneck lawn art before I have a wrecker pick it up. I think I'm gonna pull the oil pan either tomorrow or Friday. It's fairly easy to do and maybe I'll be able to shine a flash light up into the cylinders to see how they look, or maybe I'll find pieces in the pan. I have a rekindled enthusiasm for this old tractor since the coronavirus is keeping me cooped up at home.
Will be interesting to hear what you find out... I love equipment myself so I know how you feel probably why I have so many 'projects' at home i see em' everywhere too... this old deere hasn't moved in ~20 years.... I'm guessing some sort of engine problem....Took the pic this morning.
I am still green in the world of diesel engine repair. Forgive me if I make a mistake or suggest something not accurate. Can't you pull the injectors and install a compression tester? On a side note I have seen engines with mouse nests built ontop of pistons before. Little buggers climbed up the exhaust and around the valves. Talk about claustrophobia! I was surprised they would ever attempt it.
Yes, if you use the proper tools.
A lot of guys like some junk in the trunk.
Well so far so good, I guess. I crawled underneath and took off the oil pan, other than about an inch of mushy sludge in the pan (I think it's been 15 or so years since its last oil change) I didn't find any metal in the pan. No bearing material, pieces of piston or rings, nothing. Despite the sludge in the pan the bottom end of the engine is actually really clean, like shockingly clean. I started looking up into the cylinders and all of the connecting rods are nice and straight (to the naked eye) and I don't see any holes in the pistons so...Case 1 Ether 0 I wanted to start spinning the motor over to look at the cylinder walls but oil was dripping onto my face, in my hair, in my mouth, in my eyeballs and ect. So I'm gonna let it drip over night and I'll look at it again tomorrow. I'll get someone to bump the starter while I'm under there and make sure everything is moving smoothly and also check for a broken crank. (With my luck that will be the time it starts, with my face right under the rotating assembly and no oil lol)
Hmm maybe only bump the starter and make sure the fuel injection pump is turned off.
Well I've just looked through the last couple of pages, not the whole thread. As far as I can tell: It can be had running on ether but barely keeps running on its own fuel Has reasonable compression Blew the dipstick out once Sounds to me like it's pretty certain to be fuel related, I don't see why you're looking inside the engine yet. There may be an issue with ring leakage but not enough to stop it running. As to blowing the dipstick out check/clean the breather for the crankcase, it probably has one on the rocker cover? The fuel system clearly needs checking over properly, especially if it's had bad fuel/water get in. Make sure fuel is running through the lines well - blow them out if need be. Make sure the lift pump is doing what it should. Replace the fuel filters. Bleed at the filter and injector pump and crank it with the injector pipes loose at the injectors until you have a good squirt of fuel from each one - and in your case make sure it's clean fuel coming out, not water. Then tighten the lines and it should start, give it some encouragement with ether if necessary until it goes under its own steam. The trick is to not pump it in like mad and make it knock, done sensibly there's no need to blow pistons etc it's about being sensible. If it doesn't run after all that I would check the injectors in case they've got blocked but it'll probably be running again with all the crap flushed out and correctly bled of air.
Well I've been down that road. Sadly there is no lift pump on this fuel system, the high pressure pump is gravity fed. In the past I've confirmed that the fuel pump works by removing all injectors and firing them out of the engine (I replaced them too). All four injectors fire with a nice fuel spray pattern. I've replaced the fuel filters twice. I now have clean new fuel all the way up to the injectors. And she barely smokes while cranking it over. When I checked the compression I found all cylinders have between 280ish to 300ish and from what I understand they should all be above 400. Fast forward to now I took the oil pan off since it's easy and I was secretly hoping to find the answer laying in the bottom of the pan but instead I'm still finding nothing. The only reason I haven't taken the head off yet is because I'm not 100% convinced...even with 300psi on a hot day with a touch of ether she should at least try to start.
Time to set it on TDC and remove and send the IP to thepumpguy ?
Do you think the pump isn't building enough pressure to spray fuel in the cylinder during a compression stroke? Curious unrelated thoughts, how fast is it turning over? Does it have a decompression valve? Maybe check the decompression valve (if equipped) and make sure it is spinning over fast enough. Possibly wire the start separately at a higher voltage?
Poorly atomizing fuel will affect how easy it starts... also injectors firing into zero atmospheres is vastly different than firing into a piston with over 27 atmospheres of pressure
Dont feel alone, I am in the same boat, crank no start 73 Cat D3, and this is where I am so far. I dont feel like time working on equipment is a waste of time, I have seen people spend hours watching sports center, keeping horses, playing golf, watching TV, doing face space, slap chat, and have nothing in the end to show for it. An old man told me once he spent all of his money on beer and women, the rest he just wasted.
If your injectors are atomizing fuel and you have good compression the engine should fire. It takes air, atomized fuel at the right time, and compression to build the heat needed to fire the fuel. One of these you don’t have.
Dieseldog so a rebuild? I see the hone and your pistons sitting off to the side...... The more I think about it I would hook it up to 24v at the starter just to see if spinning her faster makes a difference. Some high pressure pumps have valving / mechanisms that use centrifugal force. I'd also hook up an auxiliary jug of fuel just to rule out the contamination factor. Maybe check the valves to make sure they are not sticky. The compression test should have showed it, but they could be sticking intermittently. Just talking out loud as a green mechanic
Something not right here. I don't have any information on these engines but I've known diesels start and run quite well on less compression than you have, with a sniff of ether to make it turn faster it should run quite easily. The fact that it's barely smoking makes me think it's still fuel related, when fuel is injected but doesn't burn you normally get plenty of light coloured smoke, it should be belching out and making your nose sting. Given you had it running on ether and briefly under its own power I still think it's fuel related. All a diesel needs is some compression - the more the merrier but you can get away with quite low amounts at the cost of power and starting ability, fuel to be atomised and for it to happen at the right time. In other words some compression, fuel and timing are all you need.
Now this peaks my intrest...I have almost zero knowledge of diesel high pressure fuel pumps, or really Diesels in general. I've never liked them and probably never will. That said the injectors all fired beautifully out of the engine...so it's possible that they don't fire in the cylinder? I've always thought it was a fuel problem because of how sudden this problem came about (one minute it ran and the next minute it didn't). But when I saw the injectors fire I figured that was that. I figured it took 2300 psi to open the pintle no matter what. I wish I could find something concrete with the pump before I spend a small fortune on it.
The pressure of the fuel inside the injector must be higher than pressure surrounding the nozzle. Outside of the engine it has zero pressure (actually just atmospheric pressure). When installed the fuel pressure must be higher than the pressure of the compressed air mixture inside the cylinder. Otherwise it won't spray fuel in the chamber. IE the pressure created by the compression stroke is pushing on the nozzle oriface, holding the fuel in, when the proper amount of fuel pressure isn't achieved
Likely the best thing I have read online in YEARS!!!!!!!!! Hang in there. I knew basically NOTHING about diesels about 6 years ago, now I own 3ea 7.3 trucks and several diesel engines. I had the injectors out of my 97 F350 7.3 engine about 5 times in one summer just trying to get it right. Well worth the fight. Hang in there! These are simple machines. When that Case does run it will likely run for the rest of our lives. I have a 73 Case 350 dozer outside, that case engine runs like a hot rod...... fires right up with the bump of the key, these things are TOUGH!!!!!!!!!! Your diesel engine MUST have enough RPM when cranking or it will never fire. Maybe post up a short video of this cranking when you get the pan back on....pictures and video can help these dudes internet mechanic big time.
Well i bought it as a basket case, engine on one pallet, trans on another, and had to buy the injection pump from another guy, Got it all together and had a crank no start, similar to this case story, acted odd on ether, get it cranking spray some either would just stop turning, made funny puffing noise when cranking. Pulled the front cover to verify cam, injection pump timing, then pulled the head and found water had got in the cylinders and stuck the rings, thes engines only had 2 rings in the 70s, so here we are honing cylinders.
I took this video last summer...nothing's changed since then lol. Valve cover was off because I was checking for bent push rods and TDC. And I'm not dumping ether into it, the can was empty. The starter is a brand new high torque starter.
Looking at that video now I can see the fuel shut off lever is in the on position (fuel turned on) and the exhaust is barely smoking. It would puff clouds when starting it when it actually worked. That pump has to be the problem.
Definitely looks like she is cranking over fast enough to start. I too would lean towards a 'no fuel' situation. Did you try the auxiliary fuel tank? I know you mentioned in previous posts the main bowl feeding the pump was not filling. Maybe it has debris in the tank or line feeding the pump? I would investigate information on the internet regarding the high pressure pump. Some units have internal shutoff valves that get sticky and lock in the closed position. A green diesel mechanics perspective.
It took off with some ether, I didnt read all 11 pages but looks like it needs fuel, crack the injectors, and prime the system again. Fuel shutoff solenoid not opening maybe.
Yep, if it is 'trying' to go but not quite and is giving small puffs it more than likely still has air bubbles in the system between the IP and injectors. Of course this doesn't rule out issues with the IP... any issues whether it be air intrusion, pump issues, crank speed, cylinder pressure will all add up to make it harder to start... you get enough 'issues' all together and you get NO start
Took off on the little bit of ether and also consumed quite a bit of oil by the smoke, not so much fuel. Take the lines loose and validate the pump is sending fuel to the nozzles, ALL the nozzles. If not there are MORE issues defeating fuel delivery.
Frinkenboard "It almost opens the hole all the way" post #36 I would revisit the fuel delivery set up again. My guess, you're bypassing to much fuel and not building enough pressure. Remove the regulator assembly and turn that adjuster in to about halfway...... 45%- 50% Closed Bleed the fuel system again, fire it up Once you get it fired up, idle it only. Shut it down and fine tune it with a pressure gauge at bottom of pump below fuel delivery regulator and set pressure to specs with that same adjusting screw. Good Luck!
Eagerly waiting to hear the results of the regulator adjustment. It sounds like it could be a good direction. Thanks for the manual. I downloaded it just in case I am lucky enough to run into one of these in the future. Although my wife might disagree about another toy at the house......I need a bigger garage. :/
Fuel. Sorry I can't tell you which part of the fuel system is at fault, but it's not getting fuel. That's clear from the lack of smoke (the bit of blue is oil) and the fact it runs off ether.
I'll give this a shot next. I just got the new oil pan gasket today so between today and tomorrow I'll get that put back on, fill her with oil and go from there. I'm back on the train of thought that this is a fuel problem but because one minute the engine ran and the next minute it didn't I'm thinking more of an internal pump problem. I watched some rebuild videos on these pumps and more than one video mentioned a cracked vane pump ring, that sounds like something that would make sense.
Sometimes being a pro, is knowing when you should stop. For example I had a customer earlier this year who rolled a machine over, and pulled the injectors apart to get oil out of the system, however he didnt pull the injectors out, he pulled them apart. Ran with such a knock I thought it was a rod knock, untill he let me in on his little secret, we put new injectors in it purred like a kitten. The point is, I don't get into Injection pumps or take injectors apart. There are people who specialize in just that, I take them off the machine and take them to an injection pump shop.
I too don't work on injector pumps or injectors. It's not exactly cheap to have them worked on (well, injector testing is free but repairs soon cost money) but it's specialised work and of course I need to know they're done right. And with the hassle of removing some injector pumps, you need to know that when it is refitted the problem will be gone.
I don't plan on rebuilding the pump myself. I used to be a dealership mechanic, rebuilt engines, automatic transmissions, manual transmissions, steering gear boxes, transfer cases, axles, performances engines and transmissions for me and my friends but I've never cared for Diesels. I had to replace a turbo on a 2007 or 2008 diesel Grand Cherokee with a Mercedes 3.0l diesel and a turbo on a 6.7l cumins, after those 2 jobs I've sworn off Diesels. I just don't like anything about them. I've watched a ton of of these roosa master rebuild videos and I'm about 70% sure I could do it but i don't think I will.
I'd think you could with that back ground if I ever have one to do for myself I'm going too. I wont risk it on someone else's till I try it for my self
Hi Fellas.. I just caught-up on this thread.. U said it "was" popping the injectors.. is it still?? U said it "was" running & then it wasn't.. I'm assuming that was after u put it together..?? I was going to suggest the pump being on 180* out of time.. it would still pump fuel at the injectors, just on the wrong stroke.. Theres a DOT on the end of the drive shaft.. {the end that goes into the pump} & theres a DOT inside the pump itself.. the dots have to line up, dot to dot.. THAT guarantees your on the right stroke.{compression} That's "IF" the drive gear is in correctly..
No this tractor has never run again since the day last year that it gave up. One minute last year it ran and the next minute it didn't. It shouldn't be 180 off because the injection pump has never been taken off this engine.
Then it is time to take it off and to a pump shop.
I typically like to take on the challenge of learning something new. Usually it ends one of two ways; man that was easier than I expected or oh crap I should not have tweaked that in this direction. Unfortunately sometimes the first one or two gets chocked up to the learning curve and I need to re-work or fix something. I have not tried rebuilding an injection pump or injectors yet, but would not be afraid to give it a go. The only caveat is if it was readily available on the cheap then I would just pay the expert and or exchange for a replacement. Story regarding an unrelated part, but similar circumstances. The repair or send off to an expert scenario. Our old family boat was running rather poorly. I keep thinking it was a fuel issue and early in the game sent the carburetor to an expert of yesteryear. It was a quadrajet ('quadrajunk'). I had no previous knowledge or experience rebuilding a carburetor from a larger V-8 engine. It came back stamped with the 'a-ok' from the expert and I tested it on the boat.....It exhibited exactly the same systems. Fiddle fiddle monkey with several other items all season and it still reacts the same and feels fuel related to me. Took carburetor off and returned to the expert to once over double check it again. It came back and the process repeated. Fiddle fiddle monkey around. We stumbled across an old quadrajet carburetor on a shelf at the marine store. No one wants them so we picked it up on the cheap. I followed the directions found online to disassemble and clean all of the internal components. It was gummed up from lying on the parts shelve for years. I reassembled the carb and did a sea trial. Tada! It was the carburetor the entire time! I disassembled the original carb and noticed the jet needles on the secondary were rather blunt. I think they were worn and or damaged over the years. Ever since this experience I question the experts unless the repair requires specialty equipment I usually try it myself. Did you try adjusting the bypass regulator as suggested by JD1234?
I'm the same same way, before going to school and actually becoming a certified mechanic I would always try and fix my own stuff, usually failing the first time but eventually getting it right...enough. In high school I pretty much rebuilt a clapped out 88 k5 blazer with a Chilton manual, the local junkyard and a set my grandpa's half broken craftsman tools because I was dirt broke. In the case of this pump I can't believe how expensive they are. New ones are damn near $2000, I'm pretty sure the machine as a whole isnt even worth that much. This is why I stick with gas engines...if my old Chevy needs a new mechanical fuel pump it's like $12 or I might even find one in the ol garbage pile. Anyway, today I filled the case full of oil again and adjusted that bypass regulator to about 50% open. I noticed that when I cracked the injector lines it seemed that the fuel was squirting harder than before but she still didn't start up. Does anyone know of a fuel pressure test gauge that I can buy and hook up to this pump? The sticker on the valve cover says the pump needs to make 2800psi to fire the injector. I would just really love to see some concrete evidence of what's broken on this thing.
Send it to me & I’ll send you a picture of what’s broken.. A pump rebuild thru a shop costs around 600.-800.00.. I’m not saying that’s what it needs, I just saw the post about pump costs.. I recently retired from 30+ years rebuilding pumps at a fuel shop & help folks out when asked.
1 more thing.. I wouldn’t go adjusting anything w/o putting a gauge on it FIRST. But.. a gauge isn’t gonna help if the pump/engine won’t start. & adjusting the pressure regulator can seize the pump in a NY minute.!!
Guessing experimenting and throwing good money after bad just gets MORE expensive. Gasoline is outdated and unless willing to drain and run until fuel systems are dry these days, a machine that sits often will have equal or worse issues as old mechanical diesel.
frinkenbored Some more detailed DB Roosa Master pump material to review.... Link to DB Roosa Master IP Service Manual https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QICQG0Nz6NuURSVR2F3uvTnRn_zT7r3B Link to bristol screw bit and bushing (the correct tool to remove timing screw/less likely to break the screw off) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rCp8BcpT-vAsizxeVIrQpN9BnXwgYwpY/view Some sample prices: usdiesel.com >>Stanadyne 2018 prices usdiesel.com >>Part Numbers QTY Cost Seal Kit >>24371 in stock $ 26.78 1 26.78 Pilot Tube >>16320 in stock $16.28 1 16.28 Solid damper >>29111 1 61.33 Bristol Pin bit >>24992 in stock $ 20.83 1 20.83 Bushing >>21178 in stock $ 21.69 1 21.69
" I'm pretty sure the machine as a whole isnt even worth that much. This is why I stick with gas engines...if my old Chevy needs a new mechanical fuel pump it's like $12 or I might even find one in the ol garbage pile." I am not so sure about that. I paid $9500 for my 1973 Case 350 dozer last summer and I was happy to do so, To find a small dozer with 6 way blade and metal tracks that runs and drives under $10000 is not an easy task, I looked/researched and shopped for a long time before I found my unit. Of course mine starts, runs and drives, but it still needs some work since its from 1973! There is no 4 cylinder gasoline engine of this size that will do what this little case diesel will do....no way no how. I work on both gas and diesel, diesel is worth the extra $$$ for parts....its the labor that is expensive, which is why we learn to DIY Injection pumps can be intimidating but often you do not have to do into the pump very deep to find your issues (air leaks) Many times it is just old cracked and worn out O rings at the connections leading into the pump....... I can sell my Case 350 for more then I paid for it if I wanted to........these machines will always be valuable That is why there are so many members here watching this thread. You saved this machine a few times already, what is once more? She will run and when she does this will all be worth it.
Well I haven't decided 100% what I'm gonna do with the pump yet but here in Michigan we're only getting one rain free day during the 3 day weekend so I'm going to remove the pump from the engine. Are there any tricks to this? From what I understand cylinder 1 needs to be set to 8 degrees past TDC on the compression stroke, that way the timing marks in the pump window line up. I also saw a YouTube vid where the guy mentioned you need to tie the throttle back when you remove and install the pump. And how is it held onto the timing gear? Do I need to pull the timing cover off? I've seen some versions of this pump with a big nut on the end of the driveshaft. Thanks in advance guys.
I did it again...I meant 8 degrees before TDC, duh
U dont have to worry about tying the throttle when removing if your doing a tear down of the pump.. U DO have to tie it back after the rebuild & upon installation IF u left the drive shaft in the engine.. The only problem I can think of on the removal is, the bottom back nut closest to the engine.. Some pumps have 2 nuts holding them to the block, while others have 3, in a triangle pattern.. U have to bend a wrench into a "U" to get to it..
If I end up sending the pump out is it better that I take the driveshaft out too? Its not a huge deal to remove the radiator, and it looks like the injection pump gear has a separate timing cover bolted to the main timing cover. As for the wrench I have a strange set of U shaped wrenches that my grandpa brought back from France a long time ago. That's what I used to loosen that nut when I adjusted the timing of the pump last year.
Most of the time its easier to fight w the seals, w the dr. shaft left in the engine.. than it is trying to get the dr. shaft out of the engine.. 99% of the Case pumps I do, do not come w/ the drive shaft.. {if that tells u anything}
Alright so I got the pump off, I went the route of removing the radiator. It was just easier to see all the timing marks and the whole job only took me an hour. So right off the bat I found some suspect things... So I tore down the motor to the pump gear and spun it over to 8 degrees before tdc..I didn't remove the valve cover to look for the compression cycle because if the timing marks on the crank pulley, the pump gear, and the pump sight window all line up then obviously it's TDC compression since this engine used to run. Here's when I found out this pump has been out before (at least over 20 years ago though). I lined up the crank pulley marks and the pump gear mark but the mark in the pump window wasn't there. After spinning the engine over again the crank pulley and sight window marks lined up and the pump gear was 180 off. After I took the shaft off the pump I saw the dots were opposite each other so as far as I know the shaft was in 180 off, doesn't look like it mattered tho. The gear mark was 180 off from that pointer. These two dots were positioned opposite of each other I believe they are supposed to be on top of each other. Marks lined up Cont...
That's the mark that was 180 off Found a crack in the pump gear so that's junk. That bushing is garbage Cont...
Found a tear in this seal but I think I did that when trying to put the shaft back in the pump. And there she is, what is quite possibly the bane of my existence. If she doesn't run after all this I'm gonna plant some trees and flowers around her and have a nice lawn ornament/memorial. Any opinions on what I found so far?
If the person that rebuilt the pump many years ago.. put the weight cage on the pump 180* out,, u would have that problem.. U wont know until the pump is torn down. I think WAAAAYY back on pg.2 I tried to get u to line up the lines in the window & check the timing marks on the flywheel.?? no matter.. At least u found a problem & the cracked gear..so all was for-not.. Keep goin.. your almost there.!!!
Would I get different information looking at the flywheel over the front crank pulley? That was another reason I took the radiator out, all timing marks are super easy to see now. Plus i want to change the thermostat out since it's right there and who knows how old it is. This machine hasn't had any working gauges for as long as I can remember so does it have oil pressure? Does it overheat? Does it charge the batteries? Who knows. I assume yes because when it did run it never gave me any problems and like I said before I didn't even find a metal shavings in the pan. So gauges and those smashed out headlights are on my list if this thing ends up running again.
Any new updates???? Don't give up hope their is still life in this old girl
Sorry for the lack of updates. So after I got the pump off the engine it sat on my bench for about 2 weeks. Our "lovely" governor here in Michigan finally let me go back to work so I've been swamped. While at work a friend of mine told me his cousin actually runs a diesel repair shop so long story short I passed off the pump to him who gave it to his cousin. I finally heard back today, the pump has several junk seals and the cam is broken which they said would render the pump useless. So lucky for me he's got parts on hand and he's only charging $500 (which seems like a pretty good deal from what I've researched). He's also going to set it up on a pressure tester. I'm really excited about this news because I think this old girl is finally going to run again. I should get the pump back in about a week and I gotta order a couple parts like a thermostat and hopefully I'll be pushing some dirt before the end of July.
Awesome! Can't wait to see her 'pergulating' again. Post a video when she's up and running.
Good to hear.. This has been a fun thread to follow..
Well the never ending saga never ends. So over the past two nights I installed the pump, timed it at 8 degrees btdc and bolted everything up to the point where I could start it. I bled the fuel line going into the pump until there were no more bubbles and then I bled all of the injector lines until there was a good spray of fuel at all 4. Well nothing has changed. She won't start and she's still not getting fuel in the cylinder, it just puffs a little blue smoke and that's it. Still fires on ether but then dies immediately. I think this project is coming to an end and it's not the end i was hoping for.
After doing some research online I'm starting to think I might have timed the pump wrong. I might even be 180 out. Guess I get to tear it all apart again tomorrow night and re-check everything. And I've got to find a clear pump timing procedure.
I was worried you gave up when reading through the first post. I am not sure about pump timing, but I am sure someone on here has the 'know how'. I wonder if a video can be found on the correct procedure? If anyone knows of the correct procedure and or a video outlining this process please share. Glad to see you got the pump rebuilt . Hopefully you are one step close to 'pergulation'
I didn’t feel like reading it all so if this has already been said disregard, I saw that you may think the timings out, that’s good, obviously check that first, if that doesn’t work, hook up a clear line to your injection pump on the low pressure fuel side, I have a kit I use. If you see bubbles keep moving it back in the system until bubbles go away and that will narrows it down if your sucking air. Send injectors out of all else fails to be tested. Hope it helps.Lots of posts on this one
I might be able to get you a timing procedure tomorrow
The key is to be at TDC Number One when time the Pump, Easiest way to tell with Crank timing mark aligned BOTH valves on number one fully closed.
When u removed the pump, did u leave the drive shaft in the gear.?? When u installed the drive shaft, did u line up the dots..?? Dot INSIDE the pump to the dot on THE END of the dr. shaft.. It'll go in 180* out of time.. lining up the dots guarantees your ok.. Were the lines INSIDE THE PUMP lined up when u took it off.??
When I took the pump off I took the driveshaft out however I didn't immediately look at the two dots...I think the shaft was installed in the pump 180 out but I'm not sure. Also when I took the pump off I lined up the front crank pulley at 8btdc and the lines on the pump were lined up but the dot on the pump gear was 180 off, there was no position where I could line all 3 up. As for the install the rebuild shop installed the driveshaft, timed the pump (lined up the two lines in the sight window) and then tied the shaft to the case so it couldn't move. When I installed the pump I didn't turn the shaft. However I'm starting to think I wasn't on the compression cycle when I took the pump off/put it back on. So I'm gonna take the valve cover and the front cover off again and re-check my work.
Imagine that!!
Yeaaa, Was the pump outa time ??
Yup, I tried to cut corners and get it done faster by leaving the valve cover on. Well that didn't work out so well for me, I had the pump timed 180⁰ off. So I re-timed it today and she immediately fired right up. Not even one full crank and it fired, she sounds great too. I've got the whole machine put back together, I have to buy some coolant tonight so once I fill the cooling system tomorrow I'll finally move it!
Congrats, Happy for ya...
When u go get antifreeze, get me a 6’r of bud lite. congratulations .. it pays to take yer time..
I think a hearty round of Stag for all involved sounds a Good deal!!!
Will do! I can't thank you and everyone involved in this thread enough. I've gotten tons and tons of valuable priceless information from you guys. I learned a lot about this old case from here so again Thanks to everyone here! Maybe eventually I'll have some useful information for someone on this site...crazier things have happened lol. I'll post another picture of her all together tomorrow and probably another video of it running/moving then we can finally let these 14 pages die
its about damn time
Also can I say what a great engine the 188d is...over the past 2 years I have fed this thing cans, yes multiple cans of starting fluid in desperate attempts to get her running, and not to mention the abuse this thing went through before I started to care for it like it's 15 or so year oil change and the oil from the torque converter that looked like milk, and that thing just started right up like it was brand new and in my opinion sounds great. I have no idea how the stuff Case makes today is but damn they really got it right back in the day.
only thing I have in the case line is a 580 ck gas burner factory fork lift from the mid 60s it leaks groans grinds and misses on most of the 4 cylinders. but it still starts even in cold weather and does what I need it to do. tough old iron. glad you got her running
Well here is likely my last post in this thread a quick vid of the case moving for the first time in a long long time and a picture of her all put back together. Now I start fixing all the stuff that's broken on it like the gauges, lights, those atrocious hoses you can see in the video and a bunch of other stuff.
Don't wear it out!!! A load of self satisfaction to resurrecting old iron for some foolish reason or another. Seems built in for many of us.
she needs a hose or two and some new dentures then she`ll be handy as the pocket on your shirt. we once levelled 4.8 acres with an identical by dragging a 21'x24" I beam on a cable around with it.the lot later became a gravel parking area
Oh yea the hoses are in bad shape but they have looked exactly the same for at least the last 30 years, but I'm getting some made soon. Teeth are on the way too. This thing has been in my family since 1982 and has done an incredible amount of work for us. I have a set of forks that hook onto the bucket, I've used those more than I've ever used the bucket.
Yes!!!! You did it! Happy to see her running again.