My little dozer quit pulling no trans pressure I think pump would like your thoughts
Do the gauges on the dash for the oil pressures work? Correct amount of oil in the transmission? Does the propshaft under the floor plate turn when it's in gear? Does it make any attempt to move, and does it behave the same in all gears? More information would be helpful.
Rebuilt torque replaced flex plate it started with low pressure but would go into gear after a few seconds it seemed that when the problem started was going up hill
After a wile of running the shaft will stop and it seems like it would like to turn but not enough to run the machine I did prime the pump and the pressure gauge wiggled and then stoped
It sounds like the trans pump may be bad. After the oil warms up it quits pumping enough oil to keep pressure up.
Check for suctions leaks.
I too would look at the charge pump and suction line - could be a coincidence but pointing uphill at the time of it starting to give trouble would tie in with this being the problem as it'll make it harder to suck, and a leak in the suction line or a knackered pump would find this too much to deal with.
Bill , since no one else will respond to my post I wanted to ask you a question . I also have lost all pressure on my trans and torque converter on my case 450 dozer . I brought the pump home and took it apart . Seems like a very basic component . Four aluminum bushings that they call bearings , an oil seal , two o rings , and of coarse two gears . I replaced the o rings and put a new oil seal in it . The gears look perfect . It spins fine . Anyway I put it back in and still no pressure . I can understand o rings drying out or going bad . I can understand oil seal being bad . I can understand sloppy bearings or bad gears but other than that I can’t understand what could go wrong with these pumps . What stops it from working properly ? Is there a way to test it . I filled the suction line with Tran fluid and it goes in fast but then fills to the top and weeps down slow . Does the pump create the pressure . I’ve cleaned all filters , checked everywhere for cracked or open suction lines , tried pumping air into the Tran fill tube to create pressure . Still nothing . I would appreciate and feed back .
Generally with gear pumps the issue is clearance between the gear faces and the pump body, allowing oil to leak down the side of the gears. Fitting new seals can often finish tired pumps off because it increases the gap. I find small pumps often aren't worth the trouble of trying to fix, but I've never tried with these particular ones. As to your problem, have you got a flowmeter that can be used to check the output of the pump? I expect the issue is to do with the charge pump in some way, but it's good to test things properly before condemning anything. The oil is drawn from under the transmission, through the suction filter (you've remembered to check this?) into the charge pump then to the proper transmission filter, then to the control valve and torque converter. I would say you've either got a problem in the suction line, bad charge pump or the only other option would be a very big internal leak which I think unlikely. Have you checked that the suction line hasn't collapsed internally, blocking off the flow to the pump?
T thank you so much for getting back to me . I have checked the suction line going back to the trans. Rubber hose is also good . I do not have a flow meter as they are like 3000.00 for a 30 gpm small one . I was thinking about how I could make one . The way this started is I got stuck in the mud really bad . The fan belt broke and the engine temp got up to 220 . I shut her down and got pulled out by a friend with another dozer . When I backed up about 30 feet ,everything just stopped working .meaning controls . I noticed a lot of tranny fluid on the ground and saw that it was coming from the driveshaft seal going into the tranny . I fixed that but still no pressure . I made sure the tranny was full again and tried pouring fluid into the suction line . About a gallon would pour in and go down pretty fast but then the hose would fill up and just weep down slowly . I would think that if the pump was working correctly , that it would just keep sucking that oil till it made a full circuit and came out the suction filter that I took The one end of the hose off of . I tried pumping air with my compressor into the fill spout for the tranny to see if I could build up pressure but no pressure at all . Boy I sure hope your not right about the big leak in the tranny . I’ve been shopping all over the country for a charge pump but it is a very rare item . I do know I can buy a new one for 800.00 but I’d really like to feel confident that it is the problem before I do . The thing with the flow meter is how would I get any reading when there is no oil to pick up ?
Also is it the charge pump that creates the pressure in the system ?
A flow meter will tell you the condition of your pump which is the main component. You really need to know if your pump is in proper working order or you are going to chase your tail until you pull your hair out. Your Case dealer should have a flow meter and it would be a lot cheaper to have them come out and check your pump versus buying one.
Ok , thank you . At least now I understand how a gear pump works . I just read about the external gear pump and have finally figured out that the tolerance between the pump housing and gears is critical and very close tolerance . Now I see how one good wear . It could be why my tranny fluid was always 20 psi lower than it should be . Maybe it was going slow and it finally went . Actually as expensive as they are it would be a lot worse if it was the tranny or torque converter . Keeping my fingers crossed . But again , I don’t see how they can even test the pump if there is zero pressure . It’s not pulling fluid from the tranny so I guess it’s shot . Like I said if I pour Tran fluid into the suction line , it should pull just as much fluid as I am pouring and it doesn’t . The hose fills up and weeps down very very slow
Items 48 and 50 are relief valves one or both could d be stuck. Also the brake declutch valves in the control valve could be giving you problems. Items 10 is the brake spool and item 21 is the brake piston. Unusual for both brakes to go down at the same time but anything is possible. And oh by the way a general rule of thumb to test trans pump is disconnect hose from trans filter coming from pump and put your thumb over the fitting and crank engine over without starting. If the oil pushes your thumb off then pump is good if not then it's bad.
So , these items , relief valve and regulator valve or the control valve brake pistons could cause all pressure to go down ? Can you explain how so I understand more .
The ones in the torque convertor control the pressure in the convertor itself and the trans control valve just like the relief valve in the hydraulics on the machine. The brake declutch valves work when you want to turn with one brake or stop all together, they disengage the transmission by dropping pressure in the control valve. One other thing that will cause a complete pressure loss is the seal rings on the forward and reverse shaft. They are located in the rear of the trans housing behind the cover that looks like a PTO shaft if they are broke or damaged the trans will not have pressure.
Great knowledge , thank you very much !
You’re welcome
Hey coy , I see the forward reverse oil seal seems pretty easy to change but how will I know if it is leaking ? Wouldn’t I see oil coming out of that pto thing on that you take off to get to the seal ?
Also , I don’t know why they are calling me a senior member , I don’t know **** . Lol .
The only real way is to remove the cap and physically check them. The ring will have little clips on them to hold together. Check the cap for any deep grooves and your shaft for damage also. The gaskets are shims so don’t loose any. You can reuse with some permatex type sealer.
Ok I can do that but by removing the cap wouldn’t it be evident if something was leaking ?
I think I'd be looking at the charge pump side of things before going in any further - check you've got an oil supply rather than looking into all the various ways that oil could be leaking, that seems to be working at the problem from the wrong end. If you remove the outlet pipe from the charge pump - or pull out the pressure filter, same effect - and start the engine on tickover have you got a lot of oil being pumped out? From your description so far I'm wondering if your pump is pumping anything as it sounds like it's not drawing oil, but I could be misunderstanding your description. If it's not pumping oil out then your problem is with the pump or suction line and there's no point looking downstream of the problem. If it does pump oil out then really a flow test would be the best next step but I do understand that flowmeters aren't cheap and dealers aren't always cheap either, so start with what you can check yourself first.
Not from the outside. The leak would go back into trans housing.
Ok I finally got all the mud off of her and got the front belly pan off . I wanted to check the pressure regulator and pressure relief valve . Both were stuck up in there . Got the pistons out so I’m going to put it back together tomorrow . Drained the trans fluid . It was nasty some how from getting stuck in the mud . I think it seeped through into the suction hose . Anyway sucked everything out with a wet vac and cleaned everything up so tomorrow I’ll try it again . If I got nothing I’m going to have to go for the pump . 800.00 . Is it possible that the pump wasn’t sucking because the pressure and relief valve were both stuck and not moving freely ?
Thank you so much for walking me through this . I really depend on you guys . I’ll let you know what happens tomorrow .
Check with www.flinthyd.com with your case part number for your pump. It may be half the price. I find it better to call them, the number should be on the website.
Ok thank you very much
I also wanted to know one more thing . Would it hurt to put a very thin layer of grease on the pressure relief and regulator valve pistons or just use oil ?
Still wondering if the pistons being stuck as high as they go would cause me to lose pressure . Just wondering !
Bill I just wanted to say I defiantly think your right about the pump and I will do what you said . Since I got crap in the oil some how from being stuck I just wanted to check and clean the things I can get at . I left a message with that place you told me to check with so I should get a price tomorrow . The cheapest I’ve found so far is with Broken Tractor . 725.00 plus 17.00 shipping
Just so you know I got stuck right up to the engine . Should have left it alone right away but I made it worse by trying to get out .
I got stuck in a tree root hole and I shouldn’t even been working it in the mud . I always learn the hard way .
If the pump was working at all it would just circulate the oil.
I really would start by pulling the outlet pipe from the pump or removing the trans filter and starting the engine. If it gushes oil out like it should go from there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's producing nothing then you know more or less where the problem is. Crude method and potentially messy, but quick and easy to get started.
I did that on day one. It’s not pumping . I told you I brought it home , took it apart , put new o rings and seal in it . Gears look perfect and body shows no wear still doesn’t work . I’ve been trying to see if there is something restricting the flow . Anyway I give up . Gonna have to get a new pump I guess . It will cost me 300 to get towed out of the woods 100. To rent a trailer , 300 for a flow test and another 100 to get back to the land and of coarse gas . Might as well just take my chance with the pump . If it’s not the pump , then it’s going to be a ten thousand dollar lawn ornament cause I don’t have thousands to get into the transmission
Well if there's absolutely nothing coming out of the pump then that confirms that there is no point in looking at anything else in the transmission at the moment. The only possible reasons for the pump not giving any oil are: Bad pump Pump not turning Suction line issue Just to double check, if you take a piece of suitable hose attached to the pump inlet, hold/tie it up and pour oil into it and start the engine, you get nothing going through the pump? It seems unlikely that it would flow nothing at all with no pressure - usually a worn pump will produce something when there's no pressure - but you can't rule anything out. I know it may sound silly, but is the pump definitely being turned? No stripped gears or anything daft? If it's turning and produces nothing and the suction side of things isn't the issue then it leaves only the pump.
Yeah , I took the front of it off just to see if it’s turning . It’s defiantly turning . It just amazes me that the dozer pressure shut down instantly when I was backing up . Everything just instantly stopped working . Then I saw transmission oil on the ground , a lot ! Then I saw where it was coming from . Driveshaft seal going into the tranny . Fixed it ! Still no pressure . I didn’t have any trouble vacuuming the oil out of the tranny from the suction hose , sucked up every drop all eight gallons . I’m going to buy a pump but I have one question that I hope you can answer , someone told me to use a compressor and pump air into the tranny through the fill spout . I drilled a hole through a rubber grommet and pumped air into it . I couldn’t get any pressure at all
I been thinking about that theory . The transmission pressure runs at about 230 psi but that’s on the pressure side so to me it doesn’t make sense to pump air into the tranny through the fill tube . This is what a case service man told me to do . So you see how I want to understand this stuff .
I believe the tech was trying to have you give the oil an air pressure boost to prime the pump.
I believe your right vtech but when I did it , I wasn’t able to produce any pressure at all . So I guess I’m wondering if seals went in the transmission would that cause my zero pressure or keep my pump from producing pressure ? I know it seems like I keep reaching for other problems but I just want to understand the transmission . Also when I asked the case tech if there was a way for them to test my pump if I brought it into them , he said No ! I said well how would you know if it was bad , he said we would have to take it apart and look at it . So I’m thinking , why couldn’t you have two five gallon buckets of oil and put one hose in one bucket and the other hose in the other bucket and spin that gear with a drill or something and see if it’s pushing . You could even put a flow meter on it that way especially at a case shop . Why does it have to be on the dozer .
I know if it was on the dozer they could isolate the problem but I just want to know if my pump is bad . But even that being said , if the pump not drawing any oil from the tranny at all how would you put a flow meter in it ! There’s No flow ! Lol
Pumps are flow checked at a specific rpm at operating temp. To a specified pressure they must maintain a gpm rating under all those conditions. It’s doubtful you can do all this with a bucket and a drill. Even a weak pump can have flow but no ability to build pressure. For a gear pump to not move oil at all can only be a few possibilities. 1. The pump isnt turning. 2. The pump is faulty. 3. No oil available to the suction side of the pump. 4. Air leaks or restrictions at the suction side of the pump system.
I think the suggestion to pressurise the system with an airline would just be to force oil to the pump inlet to see if it primes, doing so would get round any air leaks in the suction line. To test a pump properly does require testing the flow while also causing a restriction to have it at the correct pressure as you have to measure both together to confirm a pump is good. Plus it has to be running at the correct speed with oil at the right temperature to get accurate results, so you would need a dedicated test bench which few places are likely to have. If the pump produces nothing at all then you couldn't test it with a flowmeter, if it's turning and has oil at the suction side but won't produce any output whatsoever it's scrap.
Well, I have a pump ordered and I want to thank you guys for helping me and having patiences with my lack of knowledge . Probably going to be a few days to get the pump but when I do I’ll let you know what happens . Thanks again for all your help .
Good luck hope everything goes well.
When you get your new pump you need to hand prime it before you mount it to the housing. Put the pump over a bucket and fill the suction side with oil. Turn the pump shaft by hand until the oil moves through the pump on the outlet side. It’s will not hold all the oil, but it will lube the inside of the pump and help it create better suction when you first fire it up. I have seen dry install pumps burn up quickly when there have been suction issues before.
Yes, this is very important! Some 'fitters' think you can just install pumps dry, bolt everything up, start the engine and expect everything to work okay at full load straight away. It's crucial to get it well lubricated before turning it over.
Thank you very much !
Can the rollers be repaired when it appears that the bearings have gone bad in them or are they scrap ? I have one bad one that I have replaced but I’m wondering if new bearings can be put in the old one . Can’t tell if they come apart !
I’m assuming you are talking about track rollers? Yes they can be rebuilt but the aftermarket rollers are so cheap now days I don’t even waste my time screwing around rebuilding them.
Man, I think I just paid 375.00 for one . How much are the after market ones and do you have a link I can buy them from ?
I found a brake line broke on mine
So with all respect why are you telling me that ? I’m confused , sorry .
Google Industrial Tractor Parts. I believe their corporate office is there in NY somewhere.
Because of my dozer not pulling
I put my new pump on have pressure but there’s a restriction on my pump making noise I found a broken brake line do you think that would cause the pump wine
If your new pump is making noise I'd check for air leak in suction line and or strainer filter housing.
Acts more like an restriction , I’ve put new filter in and cleaned the suction filter going to look at the short house under the dozer it act like it’s trying to suck the hyd oil but somethings is restricting it , it will move then quit pulling then it will get some more oil then move more
Good luck; you may be on to something there you could have a hose coming apart on the inside and causing a restriction. I'd change out the suction hose just to be on the safe side and eliminate the possibility. You might think about removing the suction tube that goes into the transmission housing and see if there is something blocking it.
Will do as soon as I get done fixing food plots with my son lol
Well , I put my new pump on and got immediate pressure . Dozer was working great for about an hour . Then I noticed the oil pressure getting low so I turned it off and checked the oil . Oil was full and fine . I also lost torque pressure so I felt the new pump I put on and it was hot . I pulled the filters and still found mud from getting stuck in the filters . This is after I drained the whole system and blew out the lines with air . Now I got to drain the whole system again and put new and cleaned filters in again and this time I’m putting the expensive tch fluid in . I did see that the new pump is pushing fluid . This is unbelievable . Some how I got to flush this system and make sure that all the mud is out of it . I think the mud got in to the torque converter when I got stuck . Some how it got into the system .
This last time I bought Tran fluid , I bought this travels heavy duty hy Tran fluid because it was on sale at tractor supply . It said on the back of the bucket that it was compatible with case tch fluid but I honestly think that’s a lie . It didn’t look bad going in but when I drained a small amount from the filters , it felt very thin to me . I don’t think it is made to withstand the heat and friction . Now I’m still wondering why my oil pressure stated getting low . The dozer felt very hot . It was a pretty warm day yesterday , about 80 but the dozer just seemed over worked . I should be running just Straight 30 weight oil, right ? I’ve never had this problem before . Now I got to wonder about the engine on top of all this transmission stuff going on . I’ve almost had enough . Everything was perfect before I got stuck . Boy , did this ever cause problems .
The return line that has the short hose connecting the two steal lines were out of line causing no oil I was clearing ground and something must of pushed the steal line up
Getting stuck can cause all sorts of problems. By the way you may need to check final drive oil. Water could have gotten in there also.
Ok coy , good point . Can you tell me a real good way to flush my dozers entire transmission system ? I thought I did everything I could do by draining the entire system and and also draining the torque converter by removing the pressure and relief valves and blowing all the lines down but after finding more evidence of mud in the filters I must say this really surprised me . Also my engine runs like a top , can you possibly guess at what could be causing low oil pressure ? I put in 30 weight rotella oil the last time I changed it and that wasn’t that long ago . Could the stress of the pump or restriction of good transmission oil cause this to happen ? I hate being so ignorant . I wish I knew more about diesels .
I love my dozer but I must say I’m ready to give up .
The best way to flush your transmission is to run oil through it, I would use a cheap oil until you think it is all clear. Your trans cooler (which is in the bottom of the radiator) probably had some dirty oil in it. The engine oil pressure could be several things, bad oil filter, worn cam bushings, weak or damaged oil pump or oil sump may be stopped up.
I’ve flushed it twice so far at a cost of about 250.00 . Still got mud showing up in the suction filter . I keep wondering if it’s sitting in the bottom of the tranny and because it thick it’s not coming out of the drain plug or I’m wondering if it’s caught up in the torque converter although I have drained that twice from the hose that comes right off the bottom of it . How do I check the engine oil sump . The oil looks clean on the dip stick but I am going to change the filter . What a nightmare . I know your going to think this is crazy but I was thinking about taking the control valve off with the tranny drained and the plug off and blasting the pressure washer in there and then letting it drain and dry for about a week and then flushing it with oil again . What do you think ? Lol
I got to to get that sh.. out of there some how . The new charge pump I got worked perfect for about an hour and then shut down . When I pour oil into it , it seems to be pumping but it won’t draw the oil up through the suction line . I have checked every line and there is no crack or opening anywhere . Maybe I burned up the new pump . I don’t know why it’s not pulling the oil up . Tried priming it about 6 times . No luck !
That really sucks. The only other thing you could do is take all the lines off the converter and cooler and flush them all out.
Are you cleaning /changing both filters ? There is a lot to read here so I may have missed the fact you did. Here is a simplified diagram of the oil routing.
Yes sir , both filters . The suction line filter I bring home and clean with solvent and air . The pressure side filter I buy a new one every flush . I have blown every line down with air including the radiator cooling lines . I just think that the mud is caught up either in the bottom of the tranny or the torque converter . When I check the filters , it’s not clumps of mud but you can see the muddy substance in the filters holding canisters .
Excellent on the filters, mcprp ! The mud description threw me off a bit tho. Could what you are referring to be a sludge being made from friction material ? Like maybe brake linings or clutch pack disintegration ?
No sir ! Distinctively liquid mud , I should have taken a picture . Not a huge amount but enough to make ya sick . It still caught up in there probably sticking to some gears or inside the torque converter .
I my self don’t think oil will flush something like mud out very well because it doesn’t liquefy it enough . That why I was wondering if there was something else to just flush it real quick . Like maybe diesel . Like just run it for two minutes and drain it . I don’t know .
Real mud really sucks. I was hoping for you that it wasn't mud like from clay. I wonder if the machine was vandalized sometime in the past. 100 % diesel fuel will be hell on the pump, Mike. Cheap 10W oil will do. Like Coy suggested, remove lines and flush everything out.
Thanks tinkerer , No , it wasn’t from vandalism, I got stuck in mud up to the frame . And it got into the system some how .
Have you checked the final drives for mud ? Have you removed the belly pans and looked for damage to the transmission case ?
Yes , no mud in the final drive and yes I have removed the belly pan and there is no damage anywhere .
I know I’ve said this before but I think It’s caught up in the torque converter . Or the bottom of the tranny . Remember, there’s not clumps or anything like that but after three flushes you can stilll see small signs of it
At least the final drive seals are OK. Must be extremely frustrating. That crap may have been sucked in somewhere. Can you seal up the system so you could pressurize it with air to find a leak ?
I could if I knew how but I don’t but I can tell you that if I pour oil into the suction line with no room for air the system will charge . They’re going to return the charge pump I just purchased because I think it got weak and failed but I’m really reluctant to try the new one without knowing the system is clean .
If the suction filter didn't rupture the system beyond it should be clean. If the suction filter did pass crap then only the pump could be damaged. The pressure side filter should have prevented fouling the rest of the system.
well , i dont know what you mean by rupture , both filters sowed signs of mud . the first flush worse than the third but still evident ,.the tranny oil was running very hot in my opinion when the the new pump shut down . i actually took the new pump apart and saw no sign of dirt . something is restricting the flow and im wondering if someone could tell me if it could be in the converter .
its defiantly not in the suction line . if i use a small wet vac on the suction line the oil comes right up , no problem
Sorry, Mike. Rupture means a a hole blown open in it. Perhaps the cooler in the radiator is plugged. Disconnect the RH hose from the bottom of the radiator (the oil cooler) and see if there is a good flow of oil coming out. Or the charge pump has problems. Was the engine laboring in neutral when the oil got hot ?
The radiator cooling lines have been blown down . I never actually watched the flow because the pump was never working right . The only thing I noticed after I installed the new pump that worked good for about an hour was the oil pressure was low . It should be a constant 40 and it was 30 and went down to 20 . Can’t figure that one out either . I am going to change the filter . The engine runs perfect . No smoke
I’ll probably end up bringing it to case . It’s going to cost me a lot but at least I don’t keep fishing . Most of the time things are fairly easy to figure out but this ones a combination of things and I don’t think I’ll ever figure it out . Sucks !
There’s only so many things it could be . I don’t why but I keep leaning towards the torque converter . I think it’s got mud in it
The mud would have to get through the pressure filter to contaminate the convertor. Did you see any mud in the pressure lines when you cleaned them ? I would be filtering the oil you are draining out and reuse it for the flushing. You said previously that you could not pressurize the transmission with compressed air. I would suggest chasing that problem down. Being able to do that would certainly help the charge pump to prime. Another, although unlikely thing, is there any chance the woodruff key on the pump shaft is sheared off or missing ? Is the input shaft seal on the pump OK ? Is the relief valve in the pressure filter installed correctly ? Unfortunately I post a lot of questions, but there are a lot of things, and a combination of issues that need to be sorted out and eliminated.
I didn’t see actual mud but the oil looked contaminated . I was hoping someone would have told me why they thought I couldn’t pressurize the tranny . One thing though that I can tell you is the vent that is on top of the tranny is loose . The muddy water could have gotten in there . I don’t know how air could build up in the tranny when there is a vent right there . There was not and ever was a problem with the woodruff key . The input seal on the pump ? You mean the rubber o ring that seals the side of the pump that the oil goes in and comes out ? Yes that was replaced on the old pump and of coarse new on the new pump . The relief valve on the pressure filter is on the panel side of the filter and the spring on the cap fits into it . Don’t ever worry about questions , I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to possibly help me . I’m waiting to get paid again and I have to return and wait for the new pump to arrive so I’ll be at a lull for a while but I’ll update you with any if any progress I make . I’m going to change the engine oil filter to see if that brings the pressure up at all . I’ll probably drain the tranny fluid again and filter it as you said .
You would need to remove the transmission breather and replace it with a pipe fitting so that you can apply regulated air at about 10 PSI. Unless it all leaks out around the gear shift lever. You probably already have this info for the new charge pump installation. If you don't here ya go ! Pay particular attention to the position of the gear in step #7 and the cotter pin install.
Yeah , I got that . Used it to rebuild the old pump but it still didn’t work . Thank you though !
So tinkerer ! Here’s what came out of my transmission on the third drain . I filtered all the oil just like you said . I also drained my oil and a very small amount of mud came out of that also . Then I rinsed it with diesel and blew air in there and a small amount flushed out again . It seems like it’s clean now but I wanted to drop the oil pan and can’t figure out why it seems to tuck in under a separate divider into the torque converter . Don’t know how I would get to those nuts . Hard to explain , I should have taken a picture . I’m going to put 15/40 in it instead of 30 w . Glad I drained it though . Never would have thought mud got in there also .
That’s mud , hard to tell from the picture . Now that I look at the picture kinda looks like a female counter part . Lol ! Sorry , it does though ! Lol
[QUOTE="minda looks like a female counter part . Lol ! Sorry , it does though ! Lol[/QUOTE] also badly maintained
also badly maintained [/QUOTE] LOL!
Just to clarify-->You flushed the engine and you are taking the oil pan off of the engine, correct ? Did you start the motor and run the transmission in gear to get the oil warm when you did the hydraulic flush ? Is that crap water soluble ? I know it saturated with oil. Burn some of it and see if whats left looks like dirt.
I flushed the engine and wanted to take the oil pan off but can’t see how to get to the back bolts . I know that sounds strange but the pan tucks under a divider of some sort and I can’t see the back bolts . I’ll take a picture tomorrow . I started the engine on the last two flushes but not this last one . Just drained the tranny oil and filtered it . That crap is dirt . No doubt ! Anyway little by little , making headway !
Hey coy . I wanted to ask you if I put 6 quarts of diesel in the engine and started it just for 1 minute to flush it , would that hurt it ? Then I would let it drain all day , blow some air in there and fill it with 15/40 .
I wouldn't recommend it, I'm afraid it would do more damage than good. Some on here may argue with me but I'd rather just put some cheap 30W engine oil in it and run that for a bit.
Ok ! Thank you sir !
Coy and tinkerer ! I dropped my oil pan today , it had about an inch of mud in the bottom of the pan . It looked all clean up in the engine and the pump looked clean to . How that mud got on in there is beyond my thoughts . I think I got everything clean now , just waiting on the new pump under warranty . Probably be a week before I get it . Then I’ll start over again . I had a thought . I’m surprised the suction line that runs down to the tranny doesn’t have a check valve in it just before it goes into the tranny . That way you would be less likely to lose prime . Just a thought .
Case at one time thought about that. But decided against it thinking the check valve may fail and burn pump.
Update ... went out today put my old pump back on . Put a check valve at the bottom of the suction line just before the tranny . Put fresh tranny fluid in it . Started it up . Instant pressure . Noticed the pump getting slightly warm . Turned dozer off . Took cooling lines off radiator . Started it up . No flow . Looked at the map of flow . Took hose off inlet of torque converter . Oil not getting past torque converter . Took springs out of pressure regulator . Put plug back on . Instant flow to radiator and dozer runs like a charm . Now for my question , that cylinder in the pressure regulator was blocking the flow of transmission fluid getting into my torque converter and on to my radiator . Can anyone tell me why . I’m going to put the springs back in tomorrow but I think that cylinder was stuck at top dead center not getting pushed down to allow flow . Can anyone give me some insight on this . I never even had a bad pump . Unbelievable . I sent the new pump back to broken tractor and they will probably be sending it back to me saying there’s nothing wrong with it either . So if anyone wants to buy a Brand new pump let me know . I can give you a great deal . My loss your gain . I paid 800 . I’ll sell it for five if anyone’s interested .
I have looked at stuff like that over the years. Came to the conclusion it was a piece of something that held up the plunger that came out when taken apart that left with the oil and just never saw it. The tolerances are so minute on many of these valves that you will not see the culprit, but disassembly will bring it out sight unseen.
It’s funny you say that . Not sure if you have followed my post from the beginning but all the problems started when I got stuck in the mud up to the frame . When I pulled the pressure regulator off I didn’t notice anything because it comes off so quick with spring pressure and I let it fall into a pan I had under it . Well when I reached in to grab the springs and washer I felt something hard , it was a small stone . I know the pan was wiped perfectly clean when I put it under the plug so that stone must have came out of there . No clue how it got in there but then I don’t even know how the mud got into the system , the only thing I can think of is there is a tear drop inspection slider on the flywheel housing . Wonder if everything got in the from it . But I would think that’s the torque converter is sealed of from the flywheel . You got me . I’m just so happy I finally figured out the problem . The contaminated oil was a big part of the problem also .
That is great news ! Problems like yours can keep a person awake at night because they are so aggravating. If keep that new pump you likely will never need it. But if you have my luck you might be buying another one sometime in the future.
well today i went out to put the springs back in the pressure regulator . when i do the piston gets stuck at the top and doesn't allow tranny fluid to enter toque convertor and doesn't allow fluid to circulate in the radiator . i don't know what to do . if i don't have the springs in and start it up the fluid will push the piston down and then i can remove the plug and take it out . it doesn't look like theres anything wrong with the piston but when i put the springs in it restricts flow . i need help . problems never end .
Which relief valve are referring to ? Have you checked both valves to see if the springs and pistons are installed correctly ? Did you do any pressure checks ?
Not relief valve . pressure regulator valve . no i have not done any pressure checks because i am not capable of doing so without a flow meter . but maybe your right , maybe theirs not enough pressure to push the springs down . but it seems to drive and steer ok . ya know what ? im just going to have to bring it to case . this is way over my head . ill spend more keep trying to figure this out then its worth . this is crazy .
Sorry for the confusion. There is both a relief valve and a pressure regulator. I would suggest that you take the relief valve apart and check the piston and springs in it.
I did , doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with them at all . The only thing I can say is when I remove them , the piston is always stuck at the top and the only way I can get it out is to remove the springs and put the plug back on , then start the machine for a second and turn it off , then when I take the plug off the piston has been pushed down so I can remove it but I think the problem is that there is Not enough fluid pressure to push the piston down when the springs are in and the gauge shows that . Only about 100 psi . I just don’t know why everything operates ok when theirs isn't enough pressure . So maybe it’s the weak old pump that I put back on . Still waiting to hear from broken tractor about the new pump they sent me . Whether or not it’s any good . Maybe I’m losing pressure internally. That’s why I’m going to have to bring it to case .
Are you sure the correct pistons are in the correct position.
It’s always ran beautiful and I haven’t done anything to change it .
I think the pistons are identical , the one only difference between the pressure regulator and the pressure relief is there is two springs in the pressure regulator but I haven’t changed anything . I don’t know exactly how the pressure regulator works . From what I’ve learned by my experience the pressure pushes down on the piston and allows flow to the radiator because when I put the springs in , I get no flow to the radiator . Maybe my old pump is pushing but is weak . No clue !
And the hose that goes to the gauge is just below the highest point that the piston can reach so when the piston is pushed down far enough the gauge can be read . I’m just guessing at this because to be honest , I don’t have a clue . I wish someone could explain how the two valves work because it would make it easier to understand the system .
Does anyone know how hard it is to put the plug back into the pressure regulator valve with the springs in ? I had to use a clamp . Tried with all my might by hand with no success .
The relief valve is no problem with only one spring .
Now you got me second guessing . Lol did I some bow mix them up ? They looked identical to me . I guess I’ll have to see. Thank you for the thought .
The pistons have two different part numbers. I would not think they are interchangeable. Somehow someone may have possibly replaced one of the pistons with the wrong one. The pressure valve should not be that difficult to put back together. Is the piston going all the way to the top of the bore without resistance ? Look carefully in the bore for anything that shouldn't be there with the piston out. The bore be could be damaged.
Well here’s the pistons . I had them in right but I may have had the springs mixed up . The inner spring I thought was the same spring as the relief valve spring . They sure look the same but when I swapped them I was able to put the plug on no problem like you said . I brought the pistons home to make sure I had them right so I haven’t had a chance to start it yet and find out if anything is different .
Here’s the pistons
I believe the piston on the right is the pressure relief piston and the other is the flow control piston. And by the way when the pressure relief piston is in the housing with both springs it is very hard to move by hand.
I believe your right . It’s funny though , when you read the service manual , at least the one I have , they they the opposite and then when you scroll down and look at the picture , what you said is true .
Note closely what is written and then note closely the picture . You are right about the double springs being hard to move . That’s why I said how hard it is to catch the plug threads .
Yeah you really gotta push the plug in to get the threads to start.
I had to use a two foot carpenters clamp . One half on top of torque converter and bottom half on plug
I couldn’t do it by hand .tried with all my might . I got new stuff ordered , new suction screen , new springs , couple o rings and another charge pump . Taking the dozer to case Friday for pressure test . Still can’t figure out why when I put the springs in the pressure regulator , it cuts off flow to the radiator
After just looking at the transmission flow diagram I think it’s because of the weak charge pump that on there right now
It’s high pressure when it reaches the regulator valve and that pushes just enough on that piston to allow flow trough to the torque at low pressure
133.00 including tax and shipping for a basic piece of steel
This is it .
By the way to let everyone know , dozer is operating great . What a expensive mistake
I’d like to thank everyone that helped me . Very much appreciated
It's nice to read of a good outcome. Thanks for letting us know ! Sooo, what took place that resolved all the problems ? Pistons in the wrong holes ? What was the mistake you mentioned ?
Working the dozer in muddy conditions! Four flushes , two transmission pumps , on and on . Mud got into the system . Terrible! Thankfully the transmission and torque converter survived.
Tinkerer , I have another question . How warm should the transmission pump get when running . I have a heat lazer Gun and I’m reading about 180 . I can hold my hand on it but only for a minute . I didn’t think that it was even supposed to be that warm but then I thought , it’s going through the radiator and that waters 180 so maybe that’s normal . Do you know the answer . Sorry but it’s got me perinoid !
You are fine at that temp, mcprp.
Thank you very much !
Ok , I got a couple questions . First , I have a slow drip coming from where the driveshaft spline goes into the transmission . The funny part is , it’s not coming from the seal . Honest to god ! It’s dripping from the universal joint and off the spline . I just don’t get it . No oil around the outer part of the seal . Any input ? Second . Why does my torque converter over heat after just one hour of operating the dozer . Could it be that I just need a new pressure plate or anything else inside the converter or do you think I need a new or rebuilt converter . Just wondering if anyone knows or could give me a good guess !
On your leak you need to check what grease you are using it could be thinning out and leaking out of splines. On your over heating you might want to check the cooler by pass valve and make sure it's closed off to allow oil to flow through cooler.
Ok , first what grease ? I know that might sound stupid but where does the grease and the splines have to do with each other ? I don’t even know about a grease fitting on or near the drive shaft . Lol , maybe I should ! But my transmission fluid is red and thats what color it is . I’m going to look at it closer tomorrow . As far as the bypass valve , can you tell me where that’s located because I have had issues with the oil not going through the cooler and could never figure out why . I can tell when it stops because my pump gets hot and the torque converter pressure drops .
Boy I wish I knew someone like you to show me this stuff . Sometimes it’s so hard to understand or explain something texting . I keep putting off bringing it to a case equipment shop because they charge outrageously . I guess if I had just done it from day one I would be ahead of the game . Lol ,
I guess it could be leaking where the spine pushes through the rubber seal but it just seems odd that its not dripping straight down so it would show on the outer part of the seal . It just drips off the universal joint . Like it follows the spline till it reaches the universal joint and then drips . Lol
There should be a grease fitting on the side of the drive shaft to grease the splines because believe it or not that shaft flexes as you run the machine and it also helps when you have to remove it. One thing about this old iron never say you've seen it all lol.
Lol
I noticed in your post , you said you recently rebuilt your torque converter . These pictures are the pistons for the pressure regulator and relief valves . I got the mixed up . Can you tell me which is which ? Notice the bigger grooved notch at the top of one piston . .
These are the pistons
Can anyone that has a case 450 measure their transmission dipstick and tell me what it is from the end to the bottom of the rubber stopper ? Sure would appreciate it !
Actually , it would be the top of the rubber . Lol
Also , are you supposed to check the fluid level while it’s running ?
Anybody out there ! Lol !
I don’t know the measurement of the dipstick but you should check level with engine off.
I look back on all my previous posts and I feel stupid knowing everything I know now . Still learning every day but sure appreciate all your responses . Just always wished that the service manual was made for the average guy and explained things in greater detail .
My oil pressure always seemed a bit low to me . It would start out at 40 psi but once warmed up it would drop to 20-25 psi . I read the service manual and it says oil pressure on the diesel should be 60-75 . I took my oil pump out and looked it over . Everything looked perfect but the manual said that I shouldn’t be able to fit more than .005 thousands between the gear and housing . I could just fit .006 in there so I changed the oil pump , plus the o-ring was so dried out , it was like rock . Put the new pump in and Bam ! 60-75 psi . The manual should have given those same detail for the charge pump so there’s no guessing ! Just one example . Got all new bottom rollers on it and the finishing touch will be a new ( used hour meter ) since mine doesn’t work so I can keep track of all maintenance on schedule .
I will measure my dipstick tomorrow for you, was the final problem with yours the valves on the torque converter housing, i have exactly the same problem after exactly the same issue, bogged to the frame. I have put a second hand tranny in, new charge pump, new filters, oil changed 4 times. Can drive for 1/2 hour until it gets hot then looses drive
Welcome to HEF, Case450TC ! Have you checked the oil cooler bypass like Coy has advised ? Is the oil cooler clean ? Not just the outside but also the inside of the tubes. If they are partially plugged for some reason you will have an overheating issue. Does the radiator fan blow out towards the front, or pull air towards the engine ?
I have taken the line off the oil cooler and run engine while it was cold and the oil was going through the cooler no problems, fan blows out. Haven’t checked the flow while it is hot.
A fan belt with a hard glaze on it can be hard to detect. The stupid things can slip at high RPM's and not squeal or make any noise. Partially plugged tubes in that cooler could be another thing to check if you haven't already done it. I assume you changed both of the filters. Yes?
Another problem you could have is the torque converter is slipping.