Whew! I can finally post! YEAH! Ok, so, I recently bought a 1973 Case 450 dozer. My intention is to build my own pond and build some whoopedy doos for the kid's dirtbikes and various landscape work. Sold my boat, bought a dozer. My first time operating a dozer, I've worked a skidsteer and back hoe and have a compact tractor so, I'm not exactly an ameteur with heavy equipment but, not quite a novice either. So, I test drove my girl at the former owner's residence and was advised to keep it in low range because the fuel filters were dirty and it would "puke out". That and the brakes were shot, were that way when previous owner purchased it 5 years ago. He said he just used the transmission to steer. When I arrived there, they were working her to clear a path next to the barn and push up a stump so, she seemed to be reasonably solid. Undercarriage, oh, not the best but maybe 20% life left in her. I knew going in that I'd have some work to do...question is / was, just what am I in for!? SO, since I've gotten her home, I've removed the deteriorated master cylinders and slave cylinders and have replaced fuel filters and air filter. I plan on pulling the drums out tomorrow (today fun filled with kids soccer games and nephew's birthday party). I've done more research since I've gotten her home and (my nature) fear the worst about her condition. She starts up really good, sounds strong, doesn't blow any smoke but I'm wondering if I'm in for a high level repair job with the clutches and / or torque converter. The guy told me that the reason for having to toddle around in low range was due to the clogged filters (and by golly they were dirty). I'm worried that I may have clutch issues. I haven't tried running her since I've gotten her home because I have things removed to access the brakes. What I'm after here is any advice or insight to look for to better assess her condition. Is it possible to "adjust" clutches? Any way to confirm condition of torque converter? Any other things I should be weary of that would lead to low / slow crawling power? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I'm going to attempt to attach a pic of her...let's see if this works. Also, I've got my eye on a used, good shape set of tracks / rear final drive sprockets that are off of a 1977. They "look" a littler different...will they fit my girl? Otherwise, any advice as to where I might look around for a decent used set (I'm in NW Ohio). Thanks..this forum is very insightful! Oh yeah, I gave $5k for her. Thoughts?
Your pads look like they have plenty of life left. I looked at a 70s vintage Case 450 a year ago. Its engine was 300 hours into a major overhaul and the UC was in pretty good shape. The owner (it was on consignment) wanted $14k for it - way, way too much. I offered $8-9K and never heard back. Believe it is still for sale. I think you did okay paying 5k - you will have to put some parts into her, but I think you will have a good little dozer when you are done. Can't help you out on the mechanical questions :beatsme
Well, thanks for the help with my buying confidence anyway!
Got the Left side drum off! ok, so I went ahead and pulled the Left side drum off...man, they don't give you a whole lot of clearance do they!? Anyway, I can't see that there is any problems inside...the discs seem not to be that worn. Of course, I'm not familiar with what new looks like but the ribs seem pretty deep yet. Any thoughts?:beatsme
I take that back...the splines are GONE from the discs....shoot!
Jed, Welcome to HEF.:thumbsup You've done well to get to where you are! Yep, brakes are GONE. You will need new discs from either a Case dealer or aftermarket supplier nearby - I can't help much there. A couple of pointers though , 1) Check to make sure there is no end float on the pinion shaft - (what the brakes run on). 2) Make sure any split or cotter pins you fit to clevis pins on the brake actuator are stainless steel. (normal split pins will wear & clevis pins will fall out in no time - resulting in no brakes) 3) Case machines are designed to steer using the transmission - only use brakes when really nessesary 4) your belly plates look pretty full - good to keep them clean - will save some grief later on. Re Drive: 5) Does your transmission pressure gauge work? At operating temp, at engine idle speed click through all gears - it should come to exactly the same pressure & take the same amount of time to do so with each shift. 6) Clutch packs are not adjustable 7) Convertor problems will show more with loss of drive as operating temp rises 8) There is a mechanical 2 speed (lever at your left heel) - make sure it is in LOW range & leave it there - you will only be able to change it with engine stopped. That should keep you busy for a while - we are here to help
Just a quick sequence of events with the Trans/convertor system. 1. Charge pump pump supplies oil to the clutch pressure regulating valve first. 2. Minimum clutch pressure has to be reached before the regulating valve will shift, allowing oil to go to the convertor. 3. The convertor generates a lot of heat and depends on the charge pump to supply enough flow through the convertor and to the cooler to take the excess heat away, flow is usuall measured by pressure drop across the cooler or with a flowmeter. 4. If the machine seems to work good when cold, then gets weak, the oil is thinned out from the heat and now can be bypassing either inside the charge pump or past the seal rings in the convertor and or the clutch packs. 5. If you check clutch pressure at idle with hot oil and all the clutches are close to the same but low and come up significantly when the RPM is raised, probably the charge pump is worn out. 6. If the clutch pressure is low with hot oil but stays fairly close to the same as RPM is raised, the spring could be weak or broken. I have shimmed the spring with a dime or similar disc to bring the pressure back up on a temporary basis. 7. If one of the clutches shows low pressure at idle with hot oil and the rest are OK, you probably have worn seal rings in the clutch piston, or on the support shaft or there is a crack some place in that clutch. Not sure what spec is for clutch pressure on that machine, usually clutch packs run in the 180 to 240 psi at idle with hot oil. You cannot get a good reading unless the oil is up to 180 Degrees F.
Early 450 had 5.875 trk links later had 6.00 You will have to measure
Thanks to all for the great advice. I think I've got the hook up on some new discs. Once I get that all back together, I'll run her again and perform the various tests / checks as advised by alrman and oldseabee. Thanks OneWelder for the track info. Very helpful. I really appreciate all the feedback received thus far! :notworthy
it's been awhile since I rebuilt the brakes on a 450. the old 450's don't have clutches in them. they have a dual transmission in them. one for the left and one for the right, you have a two speed forward and reverse for control. the high low lever controls the main torque converter output to the transmissions. when you depress the brake peddle the hydraulic presser from the master cyl presses on a disengagement valve that releases the hyrdo drive in the transmission, then it starts to apply pressure on the brake disk to stop the output shaft that you see the brake disc on that is directly connected to the output shafts to the final drives... they really aren't hard to work on. just tight in some places and a little weird. other then that, most parts are still available.
SouthOnBeach, thanks for the added insight. I was wondering why the brake lines ran up to the valve pack like that. I just assumed they secured at that point...didn't consider that they served dual function...but, now, makes better sense. So, steering is accomplished by running one side in high speed vs low speed to other side? Just seems kinda weird, like that would put additional strain on the drive system...Thanks again.
you can steer by running one side high and one side low, you can just put one in neutral and leave the other in hi or low. or once you get your brake system working you just press the correct peddle to turn. light peddle you dissengage the valve pack that it goes to the side (we'll say right side for now) press the peddle harder and your start applying the brake to slow or stop the track to make your turn.
A random thought today, while driving Soooo, I was thinking today (usually leads to trouble)...anyway....notice my discs in the pics above, the center splines are completely rounded out. Could my initial brake failure have stemmed from the hydro pack not actuating (disengaging) the drive when brakes were applied, hence putting all brake pressure on the discs / pinion thus "wallering" out the splined portion of the discs? Any thoughts on that? I hate to dump another $320 bucks into new discs only to have them chewed up right away.... ointhead Any advice on how I might "test" the braking portion function of the hydro pack before putting everything back together and wind up :Banghead ?? As always, any advice is greatly appreciated!!
Sooo, If you steer it with transmission & leave your feet off the pedals - they will never wear out :yup Later models have wet brakes & should still be driven the same.
could have..... the one i rebuilt had one of the centers tore out of it and was well stuck to pressure plate and housing. to the point of having to hammer and chisel it apart. so i'm more of the opinion that the brakes where gettin really sticky and not releasing, then machine was parked for awhile, which was enough to give it the same as a stuck clutch to flywheel. (ever have one that you need to get under and scrape it apart) so those disc splines are the weakest link and they get tore out. :beatsme as long as you know you're testing and making sure everything is working, i would have no problem putting it all together and running it through testing. you know not to stand on the peddles trying to get it to turn. if it doesn't go with light peddle pressure you know something is wrong... the other way to compare is machine in low forward. put one side in neutral and press that sides brake peddle and see if that amounts of brake force are the same for turning.
don't be afraid to use lots of anti seize and grease on those linkages also!
Take alrman's advice & steer it with transmission. The old dry brakes disc won't hold up pedal steering the 450. Use brakes only when really nessesary. Mike, panman
What now!? Thanks to all for advice thus far. I'm still at it, given periodic intervals of "free time". So, I've got my discs, my master cylinders, my slave cylinders, new hydraulic lines for between master cylinders, brake fluid....everything I need...now with exception of some brake valve piston parts (I think I was right....from earlier post). It appears that the pistons seized up inside the brake valve (a simple piston that links from master cylinder to the hydro pak that disengages the drive) and that's what caused the failure. SO IF ANYONE HAS ANY "LAYING AROUND", I'd be interested in taking them off your hands! I was able to free one side's piston but the other is still "soaking". SO, today I was just going to move on to the "pods" as my good friend Toney McCull in VA calls them. I can't seem to figure out how to get the bottom (most forward) plate out so that to remove the forward most brake disc :beatsme (on the bottom considering the image posting). Seems as if you have to remove the splined shaft that the actuating arm attaches to but, it ain't a budgin'. When I try to hammer the shaft end, the arm inside the "pod" binds and it won't come out. The pins that the linkage pivot by have cotter pins but they're assembled from the other side....what the heck? :Banghead Anyone have any advice on this?
Sold my D750 fourteen years ago, it had the double acting disks just like this and I always kept the hydraulic brakes clean with regular fluid changes every time the floor came up. I changed the disks before work and did 2,100 hours pretty quickly, only adjusted the hand brake once or twice and always pedal steer, as far as I know it's still going strong. One tip I remember is to grind out the wear in the ball ramps inside, so the 'self servo' actuators rise smoothly, if not the brakes tend to grab as they notch in and out of the old wear pattern, new balls springs throughout too and you're good to go!
Jed, the pins at the top of the housings (held in with circlips) need to come out - I can't be 100% sure on those early models - but the later models had different size circlips, one end of the pin had smaller od than other - meaning the pins only go out one way. splines could be siezed to the internal lever - spose you've tried a good quality penetrating oil? Those clevis pins need the stainless cotter pins I mentioned earlier.
Progress Progress progress! FInally got some "me" time today. Got the brake "pods" back together Friday evening...man, that was a pain in the rear. Had to access the cotter pins from the back side since I couldn't get the Shaft out. Nimble fingers and some 45 degree angled needlenose pliers did the trick. Today, got the hubs put back on, the slaves put on, nearly all plumbed up and then AUGGH !!:Banghead !! The aftermarket master cylinders I got don't have the standard union flare..they have a NPT machining. THe company I got them from sent some adapters but they have an ISO flare instead so, I'm dead in my tracks. I did take time to disassemble the brake pedal linkage since the left pedal was tight....real tight. Figured out why my ton of penetrating oil didn't seem to help any!! The copper bushing thats pressed into the pedal (where pedal pivots) didn't have a hole drilled through so that the grease from the zert could get to the shaft!! What the !!?? :beatsme So, I had my replacement hoses (between hydro pack and master cylinders) made up at a local hose shop. Suppose I'll stop in tomorrow and see what kind of adapter they may have to get me hooked up. Hate to have to buy those again! Even if I have to buy a 2nd set, it'll still be cheaper than buying an OEM set from Case! And, I made sure to grease the crap out of everything that moves so, I should be good there (along with stainless cotters!!) After busting my fingers up on my cheapy grease gun, I've finally decided to look for an auto greaser that slaps on a 5 gallon bucket and hooks up to compressor. Gotta be better than fighting with this stupid thing! Thanks again for all the advice guys. When I get my brakes finished I'll continue with the other troubleshooting / analysis tips you've left and I'll be sure to report back. :drinkup
Back in business! Back in business! Got the npt to std flare fittings afterwork, put the master cylinders back in, plumbed the lines from the hydro pack to the m/c's, put in the Brake Fluid, bled the system and wala! Brakes are a workin' again! I was worried about the hydro pack not disengaging and haven't actually tested it yet but, I can hear them firing the cut out in the hydro pack (and "feel") before the slaves start to fire. I'm super pumped. So, I'll paint up the shielding before I put it back on just to dress'er up a little before taking the ultimate of test drives. Again, thanks to all for your help thus far. :notworthy
I just remembered something the guy told me when I bought it. She's a little sluggish due to the "throttle body timing". I'm not real familiar with how it works but according to the gentleman, "timing" is adjusted by rotating the throttle body cw or ccw accordingly. Makes sense to me but, would someone mind educating me on what exactly this means and how to judge appropriate adjustment / position? Thanks again for any additional insight you guys have. Jed
Brakes are DONE and functional! Major milestone tonight! Got everything back together, cleaned linkage slop up, mounted the shift controls, started her up and walaa! Brakes work! I shuttled back and forth in the barn (it's late and the '78 Ford pick up is in the way) and she seems to work! Slight depression on the pedals (together and individually) disengage the drives and brake! Special thanks to Tony in WV and Dale at Tractorstuff plug --> http://www.e-backhoeparts.com/noncaseparts.htm for helping me out with the brakes and all the filter replacements. Now for the diagnosis of the torque converter, etc. I'll let you all know how that goes...I'm sure I'll need more advice so, thanks in advance! :usa
How much should a 450 be able to "push"? Alright, so brakes are done, all filters changed and I even figured out how to "time" the high pressure fuel pump. Upon timing finish, I tested her out in the barn and boy, sure seemed to have so much more power (on level ground). So, today, I took her out for a test spin / dig. Just started: In order to steer, I have to keep one side in low and then toggle from high to neutral with the other side. Otherwise she just sits there, engine bogs down pretty good. After warming up, steering is achieved a little better some toggling (as described above) sometimes can just keep one side in low and the other in high...depends upon the grade I suppose. But, then again, the engine seems to be able to rev a little higher. Plenty warm: I pushed a huge tree stump (completely sawn off at the base) - about 8' long / 36" in diameter. Seemed to push it ok, but steering still took some toggling. Attempt to "dig"....so, these parts has a lot of clay. I understand that pushing high clay content soil is a lot more strenuous on a dozer than nice clean sand would be but, I can only get a hold of about 2" or so of soil before she bogs...seems that the engine sometimes will rev higher than others too. So if I back up a bit and rev her in neutral a bit then get going I can push a little bit more...I'm getting worried that this machine won't be able to dig our pond come July.... Anyway, she just doesn't seem to have enough power to push much. The blade is about 24" high but seems silly to have a blade that tall if I can only effectively peel up about 2" of soil. I attempted to run through the previously advised diagnoses but my transmission pressure guage isn't working. I will say though that higher RPM's provides higher Torque Converter pressure. Guage scale ranges from 0 to 100 and it tops out at about 90 under load, with engine revved up good. Also, temp running at about 210 degrees. Any thoughts? Advice? :beatsme
When digging into hard soil I find that using the 6-way blade comes in handy by first tilting it to brake the surface. If this is done with the blade angled all the way it acts like a plow to loosen up the earth. After the soil is loosened you can than use the full length of blade to move much more. On a pond it gets easier once you have a bit of down slope to make use of the weight of the machine to increase the pushing force. I dug quite a few ponds in tight packed clay with my 10K lb Furrukawa 40hp using that method. Actually I found some of the worse soil to deal with was heavily grassed areas of fields since the grass resists breaking.
FurakawaMatt, thanks for the advice. Yes, I tried this approach and it did seem to help some. The grass in the area I was playing is relatively thick and tall (unmowed this season and last). But, even then, I just can't seem to "bite" much material without the machine bogging....I'm wondering what is the norm as far as what this machine should be able to push. Like I said, it seems that I can "peel" about an inch to 2" at a time, that's about it....does that sound normal for a Case 450 machine? Or is it possible I still have some machine trouble that isn't enabling me to take a decent sized "bite"? Thanks again for the tip and advice.
depending on how hard of dirt you are in 2" might be all you can peel at a time, but if you can do 2" for 50ft i'm sure you have a decent blade full of dirt. now back to the power problem. if you are on flat firm ground (not in mud) you should have no problem having one track in low and putting the brake on to spin the machine around in a tight circle. the next thing is get on some soft dirt that you have dug up already and see if you can spin the tracks, it should have plenty of power to do that. now with any old dozer, you're not going to be able to turn well while pushing a load of dirt, every time you put on the brake or neutral you cut your pushing power to one track instead of two. i'm going to assume that you have the hi-lo selector in lo range. that's the long lever next to the seat. also as far as peeling dirt, hows your blades cutting edge?
I haven't really looked closely at the cutting edge but, to steer, she won't do a tight circle as you describe. To turn right for example, I have to have left track in high, right in low and then "toggle" the left from high to neutral. Same achieved if I keep left in high and toggle right side from low to neutral. She will then "jump" to the desired direction in small increments. Seems to do a little better when machine is warmed up. I think on just soil (no grass) there were a few times that I could turn with minimal "toggling". Yes, main lever is in lo range, I've not even tried it in high range, understanding that it wouldn't have the torque to move. It seems more like the engine boggs moreso than high rev and no power at drive. Could I still be off a bit with the fuel pump timing? I performed just as manual described, opened up the flywheel timing window, lined up at 8 degrees (after confirming the pushrods at #1 cylinder were free and #4 cylinder free / slight load with slight rotation of the flywheel). I had to look at the timing marks on the right side of the machine as they weren't visible on the left side (fuel pump side) with the #1 cylinder at TDC. Also, I can't push 50' worth of soil...only about 5' before she boggs out... Thanks for your help!
So, I've replaced brakes (when I really don't even need them), "timed" the fuel pump, cleaned the prefilter at the pump, changed every filter on the girl and still, just doesn't seem to have the power she should. Now, after she warms up to 220 or so she gets better, at least then she can turn on the grass but, when under load, the engine just bogs. If I revv her up a big and then engage in low, she'll push for a quick bit, then bogg out shortly thereafter. As engine boggs, the torque converter pressure drops, I'm assuming due to engine power dropping. Still don't have pressure guage working for transmission so, can't tell what's going on there but I'm assuming if tc drops, so is tranny since tc is driven by pump. Any takers? I just remembered, she still has the same fuel in her from when I bought her...perhaps drain and try fresh fuel? Anyway, any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jason:beatsme
Is your engine smoking when bogging down. Black smoke indicates lack of air, white smoke indicates some over fueling like leaking injectors, blue smoke indicates burning oil and or low compression, minimal smoke could mean low fuel pump pressure or worn injectors or clogged injector nozzles, just can't make horse power. Any slobber at exhaust? Could need valve job. A lot of things can effect the engine. If it was the transmission, you more then likely have higher then normal RPM with low power.
No smoke whatsoever, only a little puff at start up when she's been sitting awhile. If injectors were clogged or fuel pump had low pressure, would she be able to revv high when in neutral? She only boggs when "in gear". thanks so much for your response and I look forward to clarity.
Sorta sounds like you are not getting a increase in fuel when under demand. Might be a weak fuel pump or something to do with the governor. It may even be a plugged fuel line though I would think that would show up even when unloaded. Though changing your fuel out would be a good idea if it is old.
To reach high idle no load doesn't require a lot of fuel. When you load the engine, the governor calls for more fuel. If the injectors are clogged or the pump is weak, they can't supply what the governor is asking for so the RPM drops to the level that the fuel supply will support. Have you checked stall speed? That is the max RPM the engine will make and hold at full throttle with the transmission in high gear oil hot and the brakes locked and or the blade is buried so the machine can't move or spin the tracks. The Dealer should be able to give you stall speed. Some machines also require that the hydraulics be over relief to get stall speed. The dealer or spec sheet should give you that info also
I suppose I should check / replace the injectors (step 1), check governor (step 2), have injector rebuild (step 3)...how's that for order of approach? Forgive me...this "governor" that you speak of, where is it located and how to check / confirm adequacy? Thanks again.
The governor is located where your throttle cable is attached. It is part of the injector pump housing. As to how to check it out, that would require a mechanics knowledge. Bit outside my area. :beatsme Most likely oldseabee has it right.
Anyone familiar with a reputable source to rebuild my injector pump? What kind of investment would I be making (roughly)?
I would get someone knowledgeable to have a look at how the 450 is performing and make a diagnosis. The injector pump on that motor is pretty simple and unlikely to give trouble. It may very well be the cause, but could be an expensive exercise getting it rebuilt if it is not the cause. Have you checked that the throttle linkage is getting full travel? Does the engine appear to die or does it just seem like the load is too much for the motor? Does it blow black smoke like it is under heavy load when it bogs? I would think that if the governor was not responding the motor wouldn't bog, rather the machine would just stop pushing and the motor would not be under load due to the light throttle. There are so many variables it would be well worth getting an expert assessment. Just as a side note, I am a bit puzzled by your steering technique. To steer right you should have your left track in low and put your right track in neutral for a slow turn. For a fast turn or pivot turns, both tracks in low and hit the right brake. For a power turn right, left track in high right track in low. When power turning you will need a lot more power and on some ground the machine will be reluctant to move at all, but you shouldn't have to be jerking the lever from high to neutral to get it to turn, in fact you should always power down when shifting the transmission levers, whether from forward to reverse or low to high as there is no modulation on the transmission and it will be really hard on everything since the clutches engage instantly when shifted. If you didn't understand the steering technique let me know and I will try and be a bit clearer. Hope that helps. Baz
Now that you mention the throttle linkage, it is "bent" right at where it connects to the lever on the fuel pump...I'll try to bend that back and give it a shot. Seems load is too great for the motor, rpm's drop (I say that not because there's a guage but simply because it revvs down). There is no abnormal smoking either. The way you describe the governor not responding is precisely what she's doing. So, when cold, in order to steer, the toggling exercise is what is necessary in order to move. When she warms up, she turns a little easier by using the method(s) you described but even then, the motor is loaded and she loses umph. I'll try to straighten the linkage out and see how it goes. I never thought that would effect it because with no steering or moving, when depressing the gas pedal, she revvs up nice and high....thanks for the tip, I'll let you know what happens. Thanks Baz.
What happens if you have both track levers in low and clutch and brake one side? Does it turn ok then or still bog down. When you are pushing and put one track in neutral or push the brake pedal down half way, does the engaged track spin or does it bog more? When you engage both tracks in high does it travel ok or won't move? The way you describe the steering sounds like there is something wrong with the trans, so if you could respond to the above questions it would give a clearer picture. If I tried to steer my 455c like you have described it would respond differently to yours. Baz
First thing i did when I bought her I redid the brakes. So, even if I use brakes, especially when cold, she just bogs with slight turn. Same effect turning as if i toggled the levers for transmission. (Intermittent pumps to one brake or the other will eventually turn in the direction i need to go). Now, when she warms up, she'll turn but, same condition as if with using tranny to turn. Mostly bogs down...just like she has no power. She runs much better when warmed up completely but just doesn't seem to have the pushing power she should. When warm she will move quite well (on level ground) with both tracks on high (with no load). She'll turn decently too but, I still occasionally have to toggle. (That's with no load). I'm thinking it's fuel / engine related because (from an earlier post) it was mentioned that if trans trouble, the engine would continue to revv but the power wouldn't transfer to the rear end. And in my case, the motor bogs, causing (I think) the tranny to lose umph to be able to move. I'd inquired about the charge pump (inadequate pressure to Torque Converter / Transmission, etc) awhile back but a guy told me that if the charge pump was worn, I'd have to be manually priming it. When revved high, the torque converter pressure is high. (Can't tell what trans pressure is doing, guage isn't working yet). And, when motor "bogs" I lose torque converter pressure. That help with your trouble shooting? I really appreciate you taking the time to try and help me out Baz. Thanks, Jason I just thought....if I'm creeping along and I've got the blade raised up and it "stops" at the end of the stroke, I lose even more ability to move....could I be overlooking something with the charge pump??? This thing is making me crazy!!
I am not sure if I am getting the full picture, but it seems like this machine is not working anything like it should. What happens if you put one track in neutral, (between high and low) and the other one in low? There is a valve on some 450s that stops the brake pedals from disengaging the tracks from the trans so you can use the brake on a hill without the machine running away. This valve will stop the machine from doing pivot turns with the brakes. If you don't have the valve you may have a problem with getting hydraulic pressure from the master cylinder to the "knockout valves on the trans that disengage the track drive from the trans, (steering clutch). Baz
If this inj pump has kill cable or linkage, make sure of full stroke. Parcial travel can kill power. A pic of pump could help. Also fuel restriction could cause smoke or not, but drop HP (some inlets have screen that can clog).
Baz, I rebuilt the brakes and confirmed that the pressure to trans drops out prior to discs engaging. That all seems to be working as it should. After warmed up, when moving in low (both tracks) if I depress one pedal or the other, I can "feel" the track drop out (slight turning) and if I press more, the track "locks"). The machine just doesn't have the power to turn quickly, just kind of loses it's umph and bogs. Overall, I really believe the inability to move correctly or push correctly stems from loss of engine power...for whatever the reason. As far as accelerator linkage, i mentioned earlier that the linkage was bent right at the governor but, i can see that when accelerator is depressed, the "yoke" that the throttle rod attaches to at the fuel pump rotates clockwise fully (until the "stopper" screw bottoms out against the fuel pump housing) despite being a little bent. I even tried to back that screw out (to achieve more stroke) but the accelerator pedal bottoms out on the stand bolt. I thought about lowering that stand bolt but, again, with out "load" (load here being defined as either moving or pushing dirt) she revvs up real nice and high (and T.C. pressure is near the guage limit). Iron@Dirt, thanks for joining in....I'll grab a pic of the fuel pump after work and post it for further consideration. Thanks guys, Jason
Iron@dirt has a good point as this would create the exact symptoms you are talking about. So check that the stop cable is returning to the full fuel position, also even though you have replaced the filters, check that there is good flow through the fuel system to the pump. Puting the brakes on to turn the machine should have very little effect on the motor rev wise. Baz
fuel pump Not entirely sure of what you mean..:beatsme...but, if I push the accelerator pedal down, the linkage completely rotates the yoke clockwise until the adjustment screw bottoms out against the housing....see pics attached. Also, the fuel line that supplies the pump does have a filter screen. I've pulled that and cleaned it out thoroughly too. Thanks again for your help!:Banghead
Ok, first, I am assuming that the throttle linkage pushes when moved to full throttle and your photo shows that it is hard up against the full throttle stop. Is this correct? if that is the case the n this all looks OK, (even though it is bent up and messy) Second, In the second pic you can see the stop cable between the engine and the injector pump. You need to make sure that that is hard up against the open stop. (push the lever as if the cable is being pushed not pulled) Of that lever is mid way the motor will run be be way under fueled and give the type of problem you describe. I hope that is the case. Also, does the 450 have a lift pump on the motor that feeds the fuel filters? If it is gravity feed you may have to fill the tank full and get the 450 facing down hill then check the flow of fuel and bleed all the air from the system. Baz
Baz, the top photo shows the throttle linkage. In the pic, it's "at rest" with no depression of the accelerator pedal. WHen you press the pedal, the "yoke" that the throttle cable attaches to rotates clockwise. Note the adjustment screw is "loose" / the locknut is not seated. I assume that the guy I got her from was struggling with same trouble as I didn't loosen it up. When depressing the pedal, the linkage moves to the right and the adj screw bottoms out against that round protrusion. I never even noticed the stop cable (bottom pic) until you mentioned it. Now, what exactly does that do? What "should" it do when accelerator pedal is depressed? And, what / where exactly is this "governor"? As far as fuel supply, to my knowledge it's only gravity fed. I thought about disconnecting the fuel supply line and applying compressed air back to the tank to make sure it's clear. At what rate should fuel flow through? Thanks again!
You show it in your picture. Here is a handy description of a Bosch pump with governor. The stop cable linkage would be used to cut off all fuel being delivered. I guess that is why Baz asked if it was in the partially closed position.
The governor basically does two jobs, 1 is to limit the maximum rpm that the motor will do, very important in a diesel as they are generally only designed to operate at low revs, 2 is to allow more fuel to be supplied to the motor when extra load is applied to maintain whatever rev range you are working at. If the governor is faulty you may get full throttle with no load but it will die when a load is applied. The stop lever should be hard up against the limit screw when the cable is extended when the motor is running, if it is in the opposite position the motor will stop or not run. If it is in the half way position you will get the exact problem that you describe, the motor will rev but die when a load is applied as the governor will not increase the fuel delivery with the stop lever in this position. YOU NEED TO ELIMINATE THIS OUT OF THE PICTURE as it is the most likely and easiest to rectify. As a side not, it is a big no no to mess around with the full throttle adjustment screw as it can allow the motor to rev higher than it was designed to, and you will not really get any more power, just higher speed. Baz
The beast has come to life!!! Thanks so much for all the continued advice and help. I feel like a "rhutard"...the stop cable wasn't fully extending when pushed in! I had no idea this girl had so much power!! I bet the guy that sold her to me could just kick himself in the arss right now! She's a runnin' MACHINE again! Now, if only she had a new undercarriage! Thanks again for all your help guys, you're the best. I owe you BIG TIME!! :drinkup
Glad it was something simple for you to find and correct. Iron@dirt had it right. Kudos to him, also theBaz (and you) for getting it fixed. :drinkup
Glad that worked. It is always good when something so easy to fix can make such a huge improvement, rarely happens to me though, although I always try the easy things first. Enjoy. Baz
Oh Yeah, and Kudos to Iron@dirt, he really nailed that one.:notworthy
Thanks again guys, your supportive direction really helped me A LOT! Any advice for the undercarriage? As far as I can tell, the pins look to be in decent shape, only slightly ovaled. The drive sprockets however are near razor sharp at the tips. Can I only change the sprockets out without messing with the chains / pins or is it advisable to only do both at the same time? I was wondering if new sprockets would "mesh" well with the old pins....thoughts? Thanks again for all the advice and help!
thebaz and FurakawaMatt, Thanks for all the help yall give people.
Case 450 Crawler (1978) -- Couple Problems While we are on Case 450 problems...Can't seem to post my own topic First problem I have is with the track adjuster on the left side looking from the front. Grease leaks out the front of the cylinder. I don't know if we blew the seals on it or they just wore out, but it will tighten like normal but pushes the grease out and loosens the track within an hour or two. I think I know how to replace (hoping only seals) but if someone could walk me through the process that would be a great help. Second problem I am having is with, I believe, the torque converter or its charge pump. I have over 200 psi on the torque converter pressure gauge when accelerating engine when it is still cold. It drops back to about 100 psi when idle and still cold. When oil gets hot, it will not get much above 150 when accelerating and drops to near 0 psi when idle. Dozer was in the barn for the last 2 years and started backup like a dream (Only drained fuel and charged battery started on first push) so I know it is in great shape. Had both these problems when we parked it and have meant to get back to them. Thanks ahead of time for any help.
As far as brakes go, we have had this dozer for well over 15 years and I don't ever remember using them...ever, for any reason.
Hi Switek, The track adjusters are usually the victim of corrosion on the rod surface where the seal runs. When you adjust the tracks the roughness of the rod rips the seal apart. There are complete aftermarket adjusters that can be found pretty easily. You may be able to replace the rod with some 4140 ground bar and get it machined to suit, then replace the seals and you are good to go. If you just replace the seals you will have the same problem if the shaft is damaged. You will have to split the tracks and undo the bolts holding the adjuster to the idler. The bolts may be stubborn to get undone and may break in the process. Baz
First thing to do with the trans pressure is to clean the suction filter for the charge pump and replace the oil and trans filter. Always fix the easiest things that can create the symptoms first. Baz
The brakes are a very handy feature on the 450 and being able to pivot turn is something most of us would not be without. Using them to stop the machine is a very valuable bonus as well. Baz
Pretty sure that we already cleaned the suction filter. I know we changed the oil thinking that it had just thinned out on us, but it did not fix the problem. Can't remember for sure, but I would say almost certainly that we changed filters with the new oil.
If you have done all the obvious things, you have two choices, either start replacing parts you think might cause the problem, (charge pump etc), this is hit and miss and could be an expensive way of doing it the first thing doesn't work, or get a Case expert to test the system with a pressure gauge and a flow meter as per the Case manual. You could do it yourself if you can get hold of the test equipment and a manual if you feel confident. Baz
Hi i have a 450 case dozer i replaced the rear sprockets and tracks just chain reused the same pads now when i grade i make bumps every six feet if i go slow it seems to work better his it me or the machine
That's a weird one. Can you feel the machine jump every time you get a bump? If you can, you may have a set of sprockets that are not the correct pitch for the chains, or a seized link in the chain. Try walking the machine with the blade up on smooth ground and see how it travels. If the machine does not jump or buck it may be a problem with how you are operating. With a dozer if you get a scallop or mound created by the blade it will then create a repeat of the same as you run over the undulating ground. once you get this condition it is hard even for an experienced operator to correct and generally requires that you reverse up and start the pass again. Baz
I just got a 1984 case 450C dozer and am searching for a manual or any info as to what to do maintenance wise, problems, etc.
The 455/450C are a very reliable machine if maintained well. Apart from filters and oil, Valve clearance need to be done at least every 500hrs, and belt tensioner can cause problems with alternator bearings and water pump. If brakes are dry type, they need to be adjusted to work properly, and if the balls wear into the disc tracks, the disc need to be replaced or the brakes will either grab or not work. Other than these things I can't think of a recurring problem or weakness in the 10,000 hrs I have done on my 455C. Baz
[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH] Maintenance schedule
[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH] Brochure for 455C loader Baz
Well lets see some pictures of her doing some work now!
Truckman, welcome to the forum. You'll find this place really helpful if you provide as many details as possible. You didn't mention what year your machine is. I've recently learned that in 1973, the pitch of the chain changed slightly. You may want to confirm that your sprockets are mated to the chains. If you don't mind me asking, what is / was condition of your previous chains and sprockets prior to changing them out? Also, any details on where you got them from and cost would be greatly appreciated. Mine has "pre 1973 type" sprockets and chains....27 teeth on the sprockets. I'm looking for some "used but have a little life left in them" sprockets myself so,depending upon the condition of yours (and chains), where you're located, I may be interested in them.
..truckman..also, i think it may be possible to install the pads (on the pre 73 style) backwards as the bolt pattern is a perfect rectangle, where as 73 and later have offset mounting. THe two bolts in front of each pad are slightly offset to the rear bolts. If you have pre 73, possible to have installed one pad backwards and it's binding on the one adjacent to it when it rounds the radius of the idler or sprocket....? Just a thought.
TALLRICK, Check eBay for a CD version...I got one for my 1973 Case 450. I think it was like $10 bucks or something....very insightful, well layed out and good quality detail. Good luck.
Hey could you give me a link to the manual on ebay? I bought this one from the US and it's full of branding by the seller, all over the images, every page every title, not happy with it. Cheers.
hi my machine is 1975 sir# 3062316 sorry i scraped the old tracks i used aftermarket chain about $5000 canadian my friend did the same as i did and got the same problem.as soon as i get into a pile i cant keep a even grade only way is to go slow thanks
AU.Case, sorry, I can't seem to find ANYTHING in my records. I never noticed the branding....but every single page has it in mine too...ah well, can't gripe over $10. Sure helped me with timing my fuel pump....Good luck!
Got my sprockets! So, I managed to locate some used sprockets that are in like new condition. Made a nice day trip with the family to western PA to get them and managed to drive a little farther north, back into Ohio to visit my aunt. Managed to pick them up for $200 cash. I'd gotten quotes for new ones for $700 delivered. Man, www.craiglook.com is a real gem and helps you look much farther away than just your immediate area of location. My track had popped off about 2 weeks ago when I was out "training", performing a sharp turn to the right using Left HI and Right LO. Dangit to heck! But, got my sprockets picked up this weekend, and got one on tonight, back in action. Just have to do the left side. I was intimidated about having to split the track, I can't seem to find the master pin(s) and several were welded in place. So, I decided to remove the grease fitting from the adjustment cylinder and "jack" the front roller back. You can see in the pics that the cylinder grease "oozed out" with little effort. I put blocks underneath the rear and raised the machine ups slightly in order to give some ground clearence to move the track around a bit. Then, I compressed the adjustment cylinder by "jacking" against the front blade with a screw jack from my 86 F350 dually (hyd jack won't function sideways). I used a come-a-long to hoist the track up and over the sprocket (once installed) and then used reverse to pull the track back on completely. I'm posting a few pics of this, along with a pic of the bargain sprockets I was able to score! Thanks to everyone, within the forum and "out there" for the help. Very much appreciated. Our pond is getting closer to a reality!
Good tips, new to dozers bought case 450, 45% track left, no leaks, no water in oil or oil in water, good oil and trans pressure, no smoke, flushing all brake line, hydraulics, trans, finals, idler, new filters for all, new fuel bowl, have slow leak in right side track adjuster, need to be re pumped with grease every 6 hours usually has slipped 1/2. Trans works, seems same at normal or low temp, brakes slightly differ. Nice to know tap and hi-low shift turn, was idling one brake to turn, very slow but works. Plan to flush hydraulic tank and fuel tank, blow out all the lines using air. Is this on track? Sorry new and stupid this. Is a 1976 unit.
Did some research on tch vs other. Friend works for Case TCH is old stuff, he uses O'Rielly Premium it's rated ms-1210, jic145, j20c. Talk to old engineering friend who works in petroleum industry, TCH is the ms-1210 standard. $39 5 gal. He also liked the newer ms-1209 stuff, but was concerned about seals with it on old unit. Been reading on tracks and chains what do you lube tracks with out side 30wt for rollers, idler, etc? What frequency?
450 update Getting started, need a bottom cup for hydraulic filter, low iq person had crushed it with what looks like pipe wrench }%#}^%#%^. At least carefully removed it. Trans fluid was good color no burn smell, caught suction filter just in time was falling apart, removed lines and blew out and cleaned with hydraulic fluid. Engine oil was usual normal Delo black. Hydraulic filter was in pieces in the bowl. Used Mobile one grease on track adjuster seems to have stopped the leak. Did 5 hours of heavy work did not slip. Picked up omrings for fuel injector banjo bolts. Had two seapers. $4.68 for ten pack. Talked to my Case dealer in Pasco, she recommended a prebuilt chain for $652, reused growlers, remachine and baring rollers, sprockets were at 60%, idler and adjusters one greased and oiled work well now. Doing final gear oil change in the morning. Not bad to work on, like my Tym-Kabota. Glad I got the under work done will snow tonight. Get tips gents. Also Case lady recommended for trans and hydraulic fluid MS-1210 and case trans additive will work just fine.
Gotta her done, flushed both hydraulics and trans with diesel cleared out all hoses, replaced all filters, replaced brake fueled, greases everything, replace all lube in rollers, ild, etc, and in final drive, then flushed fuel lines, reprimed and time the injector, runs really good now except for a leaky track adjust which has improved to 1/2" per day more at it has m Mobile one grease in it. Nice even power, no bogging, turns and brakes like new one. Used ms1210 for both trans and hyd. Someone had put the cheap stuff in the trans and 90wt in the hydraulics. Both suction filters were falling apart. Pushes 12" Inches of hard pan as well as the new one I rented while back. Trans and touque pressures and op are now perfect. See my fb page for alpha test of unit putting bnew driveway in frozen ground at -15f. Got lucky god unit just needed some love at $7000 plus $500 of parts runs like a top now. Flushing removed tons of crap and the fuel bowl had things growing in it. Measured track 67% left. Good to go.
Btw costs $5 for complete set of fuel injection washers. Good investment. :usa
New problem, ran great for 100 hours then sprung a oil leak, thinking bad gasket on pan,rear seal or top cam gasket. Any one see the one? Btw once I followed all your great tips this thing just kicks ass on really nasty gravel pit. Flushing trans and hydraulic system and putting case transmission additive with orielly premimum ms-1210 really did the trick. 20 ton port a power makes track and other adjustments a snap. One good tip is air powered grease gun. $29 at home depot.
I purchased my 450 about a month ago, pulled it into my shop and have been going through much of what you appear to be. But have picked up on a lot of valuable information due to your questions concerning the brakes. I had someone tell me that he ran 63 Chevrolet master cyc - and claimed this was the only way he could keep his breaks working on a 450 he had operated for 7-8 years on a logging job. QUESTION???? - This dozer will tram soon after start up if you park it w/ rear higher than front. I now have it in my shop and trying to take the right track off, after blocking up and raising right side I havn't been able to get the dozer to tram either side. Today I primed the pump by taking the line off going to the txms oil screen suction - still havn't been able to get it to move. It appears to be a weak torque conv pump... would you guys agree, or am I missing something?
Where did you get the best deal on the sprockets? I need two for a 450 also.
Jed, what did you use in your search using craiglook.com to locate your sprockets if you don't mind me asking. Such as Case 450, undercarriage, sprockets ...
I used to operate a 450B with a midwestern sideboom on it for pipeline use and we had good service from the little machine. We always steered it with the trans sticks and had no problems with it.
Guys, sorry for the delayed replies....been awhile since I've gotten on the blog (winter months, etc). JBird1, I agree, best investment I've made in awhile on the pneumatic grease gun...it's a dream compared to the manual pump..if you only had 3 hands huh? On greasing of undercarriage components...I wasn't aware that you should since it attracts contaminants to stick near moving parts. My understanding is all that is sealed, etc. so, I haven't greased anything up. Rickj, I tried to get as much info across the country as possible so i was very general. Case 450 dozer or Case 450 crawler is what I'd use. Now, since using Craiglook back in the fall of last year, it appears that that site was sold to CAZ (whoever the heck that is) and I don't get near the results I did before and it pulls in a lot more junk than just Craigslist. I got extremely lucky on my find. Guy had been sitting on them for 10 years and was just cleaning out his barn! $200! And they're nearly new! As far as the hyd pump trouble, I've read that the seal of those wear out and will require priming occasionally if parked on tilt. And, I don't think you can get a rebuild kit for it anymore, have to get reman pump. Hope this helps, good luck to you.
Use SearchTempest.com for looking stuff up on Craigslist, it works good. I think I found out about it on here.
Hi all. Due to have being transferred to a new position at work and not having the time to putting in a pond (my original intention with the purchase of this ol girl), I am offering my 1973 Case 450 crawler / dozer for sale. I've done what I need to do with it around the farm so she's ready for a new home. Let me know if you're interested (I originated this post). I'm asking $8,250 obo for this (now) sound machine. thanks, Jason
Hi guys great thread on 450 info.. Im looking at buying one myself, but have a few questions, here is the one I am looking at> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6732/casen.jpg[img] Anyone know what year it may be? What do you call the configuration with the rails outside of the tracks like this? I haven't been able to go and look at it yet, so I've only gotten a few emails back and forth with the owner. He says it needs a handful of pads, and that the generator shaft broke, so it will need a new one, or be converted to an alternator. thanks for now.
hrmm it won't allow me to edit that post, so heres another try at the picture http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6732/casen.jpg
Must be because I am new that I'm not allowed to edit. Anyways, I don't know the specific year or hours. He said it had a new undercarriage a few yrs back ~80% remaining, and a new hydraulic pump a couple of years ago. It looks decent to me in the pictures, but I've never owned a dozer. The only other thing he mentioned was that it has a winch, thats all hooked up but not working and said it may need to be bled? Is it a hydraulic driven winch?And could that be the problem? Any and all thoughts welcome!
She's quite a beauty ! My dad puchased a 1980 (or somewhere around that year) 350B Case, we have put about $10,000 into it by the time we got all new chains, pads, final drives on both sides, sprockets, paint, and decals. I learned to run dozer at a very early age on one very similar to yours. They are good machines and you can never wear them out. The guy that owned it bought it used from a guy in like the early 90's and did hardly any work to it. But let me tell you, if you had all of the dirt that the thing pushed in it's lifetime with the company it would be a pretty big pile. With some fix-up work, she should be a pretty good machine. Also if you can believe it, I am a 14 year old girl. Haha I have spent my life around stuff like this ! Check out my blog (and see pics of our little dozer) at www.heavyequipmenttalk.blogspot.com -Brianna
case 450 - Where did you get your tracks? Have a case 450 with broken link and was wondering where to get links/tracks. No where to be found around Springfield,il
ok i seem to be having the same power problem you have described, but my fuel pump has the govenor arm mounted up instead of down like your picture. my engine has a tag from a shop in ohio like it was rebuilt at some point. and the stop cable looks a lot newer than everything else. could the lever be mounted upside down and still shut the engine off?
ok, i was changing filters on my new purchase, i am guessing it's a 1973 to 1976 case 450, not real sure about year. but there is a filter in the hydraulic tank, anybody know the part no to get another one? found all other filters at napa store, but nothing so far on filter inside tank
ok ran the serial number of my dozer and it says its a late 1977 production, still doesn't explain why there is a filter in the tank. manual doesnt show it and case dealer says it should only be there on 450B models. oh well going to order the B filter and see if its the same. anybody ever replaced the suction filter before the charging pump? the one that came out had a spring in the end to open if suction was greater than the filter could deliver. the new one has no such feature??????