Hello. Glad to finally join the forums and hopefully someone will be able to help me out here. My boss has an old case 450 dozer track loader. The story on this baby is that it ran great( I have never seen it run considering it's been setting for two years ) until the starter went out. He took the starter and had it rebuilt (or bought a new one) and ran great again. He left the machine set for a couple years, went out to fire it up turned the key and......... nothing. Needless to say I am stuck with this project. I can tell it has been rewired a couple times and if any one could point me in the right direction as to my problems that would be great. So I started with the small stuff.... changed the battery , fuses, cleaned the connectors etc and still.... nothing. I have current going to the key, to the solo kid, to the starter but it will not turn over.... if someone could tell me how to post pictures I have many of each wire and where it goes thank you for your time
You need to make sure the engine is free and not stuck? Then if free move on to standard electrical trouble shooting Starter system. Tom
Sorry I forgot to mention that the engine is free sorry for the confusion. Can someone explain how to post photos and such?
We'll let Willie do it: HeavyEquipmentForums And welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums, from another Pittsburgh area guy. :drinkup
How about from an I phone?
And thank ya for the hello from Pittsburgh
I'm an old fashioned flip phone kinda guy. I don't have a clue how to even answer an I phone. But when I take pics on my phone, I send them to my email address, and upload them from my computer. (A good old fashioned desk top.)
The biggest thing to remember, at least for me, at first, is that the largest dimension has to be 600 pixels or less. For example, 400x600 is fine, 400x601 won't post. If you can edit the size on the phone and can find them from the browser, you should be able to post them. I don't have detailed iphone experience, but do have with just about everything else. Otherwise, do as digger says, e-mail them to yourself.
Would anyone be willing to let me text them the photos and post them? I'm at a loss with this thing
If it's like my 450 should be pretty simple system, key on , push button by the sticks to start, then that sends power to starter solenoid, quick test is to jump starter solenoid,see if it turns over. just make sure machine is in neutral or could take off. I sent u a pm , do you have a wiring diagram, Anyone wire a hidden Kill switch?
All I am seeing is what looks like 2 solinoids? It is wired with an aftermarket key
Don't know if it helps but model is d450 number is 3031681
hope this helps you
In your very last photo, the big cable that is loose. Where does the other end attach to? Why is it loose? It not the ground to the battery is it?
I thought it was to! Turns out the a hole put a shorter ground off and never took that one off
With your pic posting make sure your on the full site. I couldn't figure out how to post pictures either untill I figured out I was on the mobile site. Ie the version of this website that an I phone user sees. Scroll all the way down and you should be able to select full site then follow the instructions to post pictures.
The solenoid in the last photo has no ground across the actuating side(small terminals) unless is grounded thru the casing which is doubtful on a two wire low amp side and do not see where the wire from the other side goes as appears it is a dead end. Do not understand the 'stacking' of solenoids. Should be key or kill switch to small solenoid(I suspect this is 24V) the small solenoid takes the amp load off the small components to activate the large solenoid on the starter, should not be a third one in circuit.
That's what's confusing me I have never seen two relays/solinoids?
Simplest way to fix this: Take all the low amp system down to the key switch(get one mounted), connect the hotwire as noted with a cross connect to or from the ammeter, eliminate the suspected added on solenoid and test on a bench the old original install solenoid. Will need to have a second Batt wire to the Input large terminal of that solenoid when install and a ground for the low amp side. I would use no less than 6 gauge wire on the solenoid large terminals in and out, can be as small as 12 ga for the switch wires. Battery should feed the main lug on the starter with a smaller(6ga) wire to feed the aux circuits. This is as simple as I could find diagram wise, ignore the + and - indicators for now until you are certain of your machines ground: + or -. http://www.gonefcon.com/trucktcom/starters.htm
Hey guys, to many solenoids there, one of those suppose to be for engine preheater the other one no idea, there's already one mounted on top of the starter that's the one you want to use, as the other guys have said this is a very simple wiring system to late tonight but I'll try to get a diagram for you this weekend, this is a 12 volt negative ground system, take care all
case starting circuit
Operator4100 Is that a case 450? I do not see a neutral switch on mine! Chads300 Hope this helps. Made a video for you of my 450 https://youtu.be/Ea4XB3Fr0CY
Hey there born2ride, The neutral switch is the start button, levers have to be in neutral to start. what you call the control wire is the wire running through the neutral/start switch, push to start. the wire on the big terminal of starter carries 12 volt up to key switch, on/off then over to push button switch between the levers, through that back to little terminal on starter that you call the control wire, I'm being very descriptive for my own sake so don't take me wrong.. yes that is for a 450 case, keep us informed, DW
A high resistance connection can make a 120 volt table lamp fail to work. If a 12 volt starter used the same wattage as the table lamp it'd be ten times as sensitive to a bad connection. Start at the starter. Use a DC voltmeter to test power at the starter, Did the appropriate test probe into the metal housing of the starter, the other into the starter power input. Check voltage while someone tries to turn over the engine. From battery, to starter the ground must be perfect. 200-500 amps must flow ofer these connections. Often bolted castings are the conductor. Oxidation, or dirt will impede current. I can sometimes find a bad bolt continuity across components with a DC voltmeter. Make sure full power is delivered under load to the starter. The solenoid may be at the starter, or on the firewall. confirm it delivers power on demand. The solenoid coil may get power from the key switch. Check to see that you have 12 volt control power at the key switch. I recently dealt with a Ford 1 ton truck. The owner told me he had replaced the ground cable. Following it, I found a splice, and badly corroded terminations. Fixing this, it started easily. Willie
Operator4100 In your diagram you have a key, start button and a neutral safety. here is my wiring diagram i have been using. Seeing yours with the added neutral safety makes me think it was a tractor with clutch? Or mine was missing an extra safety item. Unless i am just crazy! lol
I was having a Gray moment there, I kept saying what is he talking about? had to look at my picture twice before I noticed neutral start switch, I must have pull that off a later version not sure but it is for a 450, I have two or three different manuals on my puter, my bad man. Mine didn't have that switch either, I rewired mine last year it would crank but wiring was very old, 68 model. The pic you have is a good one to follow to. DW
Operator4100 I has some small switch down on the shifter, i was assuming it was some sort of homemade reverse switch , after that diagram i got nervous being i took it ouT. LOL
what year is your case, early crawlers from factory only safety switch was the levers had to be centered before you could engage start button..
Best i come up with is a 1972 because serial is 30487.
Hey fellas I'm working on the dozer now, was not ignoring anyone or the thread I was down with bronchitis, thanks for the video hopefully I can accomplish something today
Born2ride I traced the charging post off the solinoid on top the starter and it runs up to one of the stacked solinoids.
Well I have figured out that the neutral safety switch was wired up to the "stacked" cylinoid ..... is there a way to eliminate the switch or must the dozer have it?
I would leave the neutral safety switch!
Just an update? I put the dozer back to the factory wiring diagram and it started right up. Next day went to start it and nothing. It will click WHEN the machine is hooked up to a jump box but does nothing when it is not(acts like a dead battery but it's brand new). Any advice ?
Check the battery voltage when you walk out cold, if below 13.6 for a 12V or 25.6 for a 24v set up then something is either drawing them down or the battery is bad. Low voltage increases amp draw which in turn drives voltage down. Self eating watermelon, can cause the solenoid on the starter to draw too hard and cook it be careful. If suspect a draw, connect a test lamp between the last N post and the N cable(disconnected), it had better NOT light up. If does start disconnecting items until you find the draw(alternator diodes are big suspects).
Hmm stuck solenoid,, ?? Tap on it with hammer
As it turns out it chewed the gear up in the starter(that spins the fly wheel). Sooooo I am assuming that the key is wired up wrong and kept the starter going
Lots of times low voltage will cause the amps to swing high, that in turn basically welded the solenoid contacts in place. I would still look for a draw source then fix the starter and see if it is charging well enough.
I think I have figured out the issue, the cheap wall mart ignition does not let the starter turn off
i feel like an idiot..... turns out the safety switch was jumpers out( had both wires together to get it to start) so I bought a new switch and connected it now you must use the starter button( before soon as you turned the key the machine started) so I am going to assume this was the culprit in the started staying engaged?