Hello, I just purchased a Case 580, was advertised as a B model but I think its an early model 580 with a model 33 backhoe. The seller told me the starter was replaced/rebuilt a few years ago, he couldn't remember If the actual owner (who has since passed away) had the old one rebuilt or bought a new one. When you hit the start switch the starter will turn the engine over for just a second and then just grind on the ring gear. Can anyone help me out here, it looks like the starter is not engaging all the way... Is the Bendix on the starter incorrect for the ring gear? I know I will be replacing the ring gear/torque converter most likely but need to get this guy started at least once to get it on the trailer. Any and all help/advice will be much appreciated.
First you need to determine if that is the correct starter. Hopefully it is a Delco0Remy and not a noname aftermarket one. The DR will have the part number stamped on a tag on the frame of it. That # is how to determine if the starter is the correct one. The real problem is the ring gear. It appears that is your problem with bendix kicking out of engagement.
Make sure you have a good connection. You should voltage drop the power and ground side of the starter circuit. If you are not sure how to do a voltage drop or what it is measuring just ask. Have you inspected the ring gear? If a starter is not fully engaging the ring gear it will grind away teeth. Then when you fix the starter and it hits that area you end up with problems. It could also be a solenoid issue. This is why measuring the voltage drop is helpful.
Tinkerer: Thank you for the reply, I will check this morning to see what info that starter has. Do you happen to have the part# for starter? Also can you tell what model this backhoe is? I know it says 580B on it but I think its a 580CK, I didn't get the serial number off it. Edgephoto: Thank yhou for your reply as well, I do not know how to do a voltage drop or what that means?? The ring gear is chewed up some, if you check out the photo you can see the tips are messed up. I know I will be replacing that... I need to be able to get this thing started to load it and before I put a bunch of time and money into it I want to make sure its worth it. It seems to me that the starter teeth should be grabbing much more of the ring gear teeth. I could be wrong but it just seems that there is plenty of tooth left on that ring gear to turn the engine over to get it started one time. But, I also need to understand why the ring gear is being chewed up to begin with. Thank you for any and all input.
A weak bendix drive and time will make a ring gear look like yours. It is impossible to determine if the correct starter is on it without knowing exactly what model machine you have. Case used several different starters on the 580CK and 580B. See below is an example from the 580B parts book The Case part numbers can be cross referenced to Delco Remy numbers on the internet. There is a chance the starter you have is not fully engaging the ring gear. With the starter off the machine hook it up to a battery and spin the starter . Look for the bendix gear to completely go to the washer that is on the armature shaft. You can measure the distance from back side of the ring gear teeth to the starter mount. Next measure the distance from the starter mounting flange to the bendix gear when it is fully extended. That should give you a good idea if the starter is fully engaging the ring gear. .
Hmmmm, well I guess I need to get the serial number off the machine. I am going to take the starter in and get it tested to make sure it is functioning properly.
A voltage drop is measuring the resistance in the circuit. You perform the measurement while the circuit is activated. In high current circuits such as a starter a very small resistance can cause a large loss of voltage. You would not be able to really measure the resistance in Ohms. Ohms law is: Voltage = Current X Resistance. For example in a starting circuit you may draw 500+ amps. If we lose more than .5 volts we have an issue. Let's say you measure 2 volt when testing. The formula becomes 2 volts/500amps= .004 ohms. You are not going to measure .004 ohms with a meter. This is why voltage drop testing is used. To measure everything in the circuit make sure to connect to the actual battery post. This way if there is resistance in the battery terminal you will measure it. The ground is provided by the chassis so just use the starter housing for one connection. It does not matter which way you have the + and - leads. The number measurement is what you are after. You should measure under .5 volts. Anything above that is an issue. Also measure the battery voltage when cranking. If it drops below 10 volts you need to charge the batteries or replace them. The solenoid won't hold if the voltage goes low. Best to diagnose your problem vs. changing parts. The picture shows how to hook up the meter. You do the test on the ground side and then the power side. If either is above .5 volts you know which half has the issue. Then we can do more tests to determine exactly what is the issue.
wow ok I can do this test, can I do it with the starter removed? I ask because when it is installed the starter just grinds on the ring gear and don't want to cause more damage then already done. I really appreciate the help!
The starter is a DelcoRemy with the numbers 1998442-3J29 stamped in the side of it.
Well sort of. You won't really be testing the ground side properly. You don't have to run the starter for long just a quick crank. The damage is already done.
I took the starter into the starter shop to have it tested, everything tested out good.
Then I would do the voltage drop test with the starter installed. If the voltage is not correct then your solenoid may not hold. Most likely the ring gear was damaged from the starter prior to repair.
Thank you, I will try this when I make it back out to the backhoe. It will be a few days unfortunately.
To further complicate things, the 188 diesel uses two different bendix drives. A 9 tooth and a 10 tooth. That is why the serial number of the tractor is so important to have. Otherwise you have to count the number of teeth on the ring gear and figure which bendix drive it uses. Either drive will turn the engine but bad things happen if the wrong number of teeth are used in it.
I would make sure you have the right Bendix on your starter.If it was rebuilt it is very possible you have the wrong one installed.
I will work on getting that serial number today, Im not sure how to look that up once I get it. I will post it here and hopefully can get some guidance on what I have, or should have anyways.
It appears I have a 10 tooth Bendix on my starter now, just the best I can tell from the picture. I will count that though.
It is most likely the correct one. The tractor serial number will determine if it is. Unless the motor has been replaced. Counting how many teeth that are on the ring gear is the absolute way to determine which bendix gear it requires. With a good ring gear the sound of the starting motor turning will let you know immediately if the right gear is turning it. Been there done that.
I confirmed I do have the 9 tooth Bendix, waiting on a picture of the serial number....
Your starter doesn't look that bad compared to the shape of the ring gear teeth. I would have liked to see the old starter to see how it could get that bad. Even with the shape of the ring gear, it should stay engaged fine with the amount of teeth that are left, it doesn't seem like it's engaging anywhere close to far enough, or it's falling out repeatedly, or something along those lines. The way those teeth are "smeared" makes it harder for the starter teeth to engage, you can correct them with a file and a lot of patience, so that the teeth ends are the same profile as the surface of the teeth, and the back edge of the tooth has a little relief like the teeth on the starter gear, but that usually makes a starter fail to engage and spin, not kick out after it's engaged.
It looks like a B to me. I have a CK and a C and that one has aspects of both - but it's hard to tell from one picture. You aren't going to enjoy changing that ring gear. To get it on the trailer, you can try the Delmer approved method of putting it in neutral - making sure it is not able to start by pulling the fuel shut off even though it is unlikely to start by rotating it so slowly - and reach in and grab a fan blade and the fan belt at the same time and rotate the engine to a spot where the ring gear is still good - and give it a go. Don't forget to push the fuel shutoff back in before cranking it over. You may want to consider more of his advice here: HeavyEquipmentForums I recently bought a new starter for my CK. It has the 188D diesel engine. I don't have the number handy but I could come up with it in a day or so if necessary. I found a couple different types of starters - one was like the original starter and the other is a high torque / gear reduction type. I got the second one. It's supposed to be a better design. I also read somewhere that someone's 10 tooth could replace the stock nine tooth because the shaft was offset. Don't ask me how that works but it probably does. Your starter may be fully engaging but then running into an area of damaged ring gear so a new starter may not help much and changing that ring gear is a big job. I'd change the whole torque converter, rebuild the shuttle, change the clutch, etc. if it has one, and check the ring and pinion while the tractor is split. You won't want to go back in anytime soon. Good luck.
The serial number tag is on the steering column on right side, if it is missing the number is stamped in the front bolster (radiator housing) on left side. The loader serial number is on the left side where you step up on the machine, the backhoe serial number is on the back left side just above the stabilizer. If the backhoe is a 33 it will only have one boom cyl. the 35 will have two boom cyl. on the outside of the boom.
Got the serial number. 8757421
Would this be a 74 model?
Grady: Appreciate the response, unfortunately all the teeth are chewed up like in the picture I posted. I might try and file them down some, I need to find out what bendix I should have, mine is a 9 tooth.
Coy: Thank you appreciate that! So, now that I have my serial number and know what starter I have, how do I determine weather or not its the correct on for this machine?
Delmer: That is what I have been thinking, this thing should still engage and start. I need to confirm I have the correct starter first of all, then I will get cozy with my file and start making that ring gear pretty again. The guy I bought this from didn't have a ton of information because it belonged to his neighbor who has passed away, so no idea on the old starter or reason for taking it off. This particular starter has been rebuilt so I believe its the same one that was taken off the machine. The starter will just engage for a second, just long enough to turn the engine enough so you know it isn't seized up but then kicks out and grinds against the ring gear.
Your tractor was made in mid 1974. It has a 135 tooth ring gear. There is an outside chance the starter solenoid is weak. For what little they cost I would put a new one on it. Be sure you have a fully charged battery and clean and tighten all the cable connections. The ground especially.
Tinkerer, Thanks a million! So does this machine take a 9 tooth Bendix? Or 10? I had the starter tested but I will replace that solenoid, put a new battery and check all connections. I will also take a file to the ring gear to ensure that is cleaned up and looking good!
Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how many teeth the bendix should have. The parts book shows only 135 tooth ring gears and a 9 and 10 tooth starter. Use the one you have. I'm suspicious the ring gear is in the condition it is because the bendix gear may be the wrong one. Eventually when you put a new ring gear on the flywheel you will know from the sound of it turning weather or not the correct bendix gear is in place.
I did find this, looks like I possibly to need to swap that Bendix gear out....
Interesting read. But unless it is for a Case 188 diesel the info is not relevant. Because the diameter of the ring gear most likely is different than the one in your photo. IMHO
So I found this also, this is saying 9 or 10 tooth will not matter....
This one says 9 tooth and 135 is a terrible fit, I know this isn't for Case but seems like it should hold true....
Makes me wonder if the Engine Thrust Bearing is shot, Crank moving Back?
Interesting ! I hadn't thought about that. Cessna needs to get his machine home so he has time to figure out whats wrong.
DMiller: Could that allow the crank to move back that far? I haven't heard this thing run yet so that is definitely a possibility
I sure hadn't thought of the crank moving, for that matter the flywheel could be loose on the crank, or the ring gear could have moved on the flywheel. More likely something is wrong with the starter, I'd be measuring everything until you find out why the full width of the gears aren't engaged like they should be. Take nothing for granted at this point. when they test the starter, it's usually just spin testing isn't it? no load put on the gear or drive. That's the end that takes the abuse so fails most often and isn't working now.
Ya Delmer, that is why I suggested changing the solenoid.
Starters do not engage all that far before the contact plate makes up and the motor engages, .060 movement could set it all off.
DMiller, thank you for the response. Could you explain in a little more detail? I’m not following what you are saying. .060 movement in what could set it all off? Thanks!
When a Starter rolls in, the coil of the solenoid Pulls the Bendix toward and into the ring gear, it reaches a fixed point of travel but NOT end of travel and the Contact Plate in the Solenoid picks up BOTH terminals. This is spring loaded so the Bendix fork continues to drive the now rotating Bendix into the teeth. Any loss of motion, ground away teeth, float on a crankshaft will allow the motor to energize before enough tooth contact is made up. .060 does not sound much but between normal Teeth Bendix and ring wear, age of starter, settings slip in starter, could be enough
Yes, once the starter is spinning fast, it's not going to engage the ring gear teeth if it hasn't already. That's why the back of the teeth are ground at a bevel, so that the teeth will move slightly to engage as the solenoid moves the starter gear out, and HOPEFULLY before it starts spinning. 0.060" to a carpenter is 1/16" which is half of 1/8" and it looks to me like you have 1/8" wiped off of those ring gear teeth already, plus they're smeared a little round, and a little of a burr on the edge. That combined with what DMiller said, makes it understandable that the starter won't engage, BUT you say it will engage for a second, and the engine turns a bit? before it kicks out, I don't get that. And I've never seen such uniformly ground teeth on a ring gear, so I'm suspicious that there's something serious and unexpected wrong going on here.
Ok that explanation makes great sense, thank you for breaking that down for me. The starter will engage for a second before it disengages, probably 3/4 of an engine rotation. I am going to start with replacing the solenoid, new battery and check all connections to ensure I have the proper power and a good working starter. If that will not work ill try pouring 24v to the starter and see if it will engage long enough to fire it up. Once I get it started and verify everyone works as it should ill split the tractor and replace that ring gear. It is very odd that the ring gear is worn like it is.
Also check that the bendix is moving the full lenght of the nose on the starter. A worn pivot pin or worn fork could limit your travel tremendously.
Thanks Theweldor! I will be checking that as well, also will be seeing if I can adjust how far that Bendix goes out. If I could get another 1/4" possibly even an 1/8 would let me get it started! I only need this to work once haha
Something odd is going on here. Just don't take anything for granted as you don't know what has been done. When you do find the issue it will most likely be some simple fix.
I agree, I will keep everyone updated with what I find. I will be tackling this on Wednesday so hopefully Wednesday evening or Thursday morning I will have some good updates... Or a 580B for sale!
Another thing I thought of and I do not know the answer. I am sure someone would hopefully enlighten me on this subject, But are there different travel lengths on solenoids?
What I’ve done in a predicament is to remove the solenoid and shift the Bendix manually and then apply power to the starter. Might give you that one start you require.
I can only speak of Delco Remy starters that I have repaired. Yes the travel length is specific to the machine it is made to fit. Some of them have a fixed (non-adjustable) length and some are adjustable. I edited my post to include the info. below The photo is from a Case service manual and is what I refer to as adjustable. I have worked on several starters like this one.
I wouldn't use 24V. Use as many and as big of jumper cables and jumping vehicles as you'd like, at 12V. Maybe try a separate battery just for the solenoid power, so you're not relying on the wiring and starting batteries to hold in the solenoid. Or the manual hold in like DB2 described. I could possibly find you a amishized honda belt driven starter that WILL start that thing, if there's any chance at all, and you don't lose your fingers first.
put some black paint all the way round that pinion gear at least you'll see if it is getting all the way in at all...
I will check my starter this morning and see if It has the plug to adjust the Bendix travel, that would be great! DB2 I really like the idea of removing the solenoid and manually holding it.. How would this be done properly? Remove the solenoid, use a wire or something to pull the actuating fork thingamajig out so the Bendix is engaged and apply power? Ronsii, I also like your idea to paint the Bendix, you guys are very much appreciated! I hope I can help someone out one day as much as everyone has helped me
Yes using a wire would work. Just make sure its a stout one that isn’t going to let the lever disengage until you want it to. You should be able to tell when it’s fully engaged in the flywheel.
Okay that is my new backup plan incase the new solenoid does not work. I'm excited! In my head I don't see how that cant not work!!
Try a pickle fork tie rod separator to pry the bendix plunger into the flywheel.
So how do I power the starter with the solenoid removed? I guess I hadn't thought of that part....
Bolt a battery cable to the big post on the starter and another separate cable on the battery. Use the two open cable ends to make the connection. Doing that will avoid burning up your starter post or the battery post.
Well I got the 580 home yesterday, it was an interesting adventure but we made it. The starter is the correct one but the bendix is wrong. I was able to start it once by removing the solenoid and engaging it manually. It ran great and almost had it on the trailer when the fuel filter clogged up and she died..... it then sheared all the teeth off the bendix the next time I tried to start it. I was able to borrow a starter with a 10 tooth bendix from a guy I sold a 530 to last year and it fires right up and sounds great! The transmission leaks beyond bad between the engine and trans so that needs fixed, other then that it seems like I got a pretty darn good deal! Thanks a million for all the replies and help on this.
So it does HAVE to be a 10 tooth bendix gear for a 135 tooth ring gear, the picture I posted saying the 135 tooth ring gear and the 9 tooth bendix gears do not mesh is 100% accurate. 135 & 10 and 110 & 9 so hopefully that will help someone out some day.
Nice to read you found the problem. Keep us updated when you split the tractor to fix the oil leak. I had the same starter problem as you did once. Sadly I destroyed a new ring-gear with wrong Bendix. The previous owner had installed the wrong starter for some stupid reason that I will never know why. It was a long and tedious process to figure out what happened to destroy that new ring-gear.
What many do is access salvage yards for starters on these, they do not differentiate Gas to Diesel or series types just the "Oh look, a starter for my Hoe" even as Appears correct is as wrong as can get.
Most likely true in my situation also. The previous owner of my tractor made the same mistake 3 times. I found 2 armature ends about 3/4 of an inch long laying in the bottom of the torque convertor housing when I removed the engine for an overhaul. I didn't know what they were until I ruined the new ring-gear on the first start. Dale Wiess at http://e-backhoeparts.com/ was the one who knew what my problem was.