Anyone have the normal operating temp? I'm running at 270 degrees which I think is too much. I'm going to test the thermostat but before I want to make sure it's not a higher temp range. Thanks!
my 580ck the hottest it runs is around 210 in really hot weather but averages 180 for the most part is yours a ck ???????????
Case 580c. 190f is normal. Im going to remove the tstat. It must be stuck! Just rebuilt this motor... Ugh!
I just did a bunch of stuff to mine this past winter and part of it was i installed a new thermostat and it was a stock one set to open at 180 ....... post back with what you find just curious.....good luck
I hope it is as simple as the tstat. It may be time to change that noisy water pump you mentioned earlier. Belts tight ? Do they have a hard glaze on them ? Hydraulic oil temp. OK ?
Picked up a 180F thermostat. My service manual called for a 190F in warm weather and 160F in cold. 180 seems to be a good overall number. Stay tuned, I will let you all know what happens!
I hope thats all it is to but for it to hit 270 just seems real hi ....unless that old stat is completely shut off.......Yea let us know.........
All is working, the thermostat was stuck open allowing coolant to go by. What was happening is all the coolant was heating up extremely fast boiling it and not giving the radiator a chance to cool it down. Currently running full bore at 170F-190F with no issues. The new engine will put out a lot more heat as the piston ring gap I went with is tight, causing more friction on the sleeves until break in. Thought I would reply back.
Thanks for the update, we all appreciate knowing the outcome. I disagree with the "not giving the radiator a chance to cool it". I'll bet that if you took the temps of the radiator when the engine was at 270, then the bottom of the radiator was NOT 250 or even 220. If it was that hot, then there wasn't enough air movement over the radiator, or the engine was really binding up. I've had this disagreement with more experienced members before, but they were experienced with big equipment where the inside of the tubes can get coated but still allow fluid to pass through the radiator, otherwise it makes no sense according to the rules of heat transfer. I'm glad you got it fixed so easily. Another possibility is the thermostat was a bypass type, and the bypass was not closed while the thermostat was stuck open? Any aged thermostat that saw 270 would be suspect IMHO.
Im not sure how the 580c compares to the 580ck but on mine before i redid the tractor this winter.....The normal running temp was around 210 and i didnt realize i had a problem until i tore it down then i seen where a mist of hyd oil had been leaking plugin up some of the cooling fins on the radiator with oil and dust after cleaning the radiator and fixing the leak she now runs around 180 unless im traveling a ways on the road when the outside temp is 80 plus ...... I hope this has solved your problem but it just seems like if that stat was in the stuck in open position that it would of ran at a lower temp.....I know when the outside temp is around 50 i couldnt even get mine up to the 180 to get the stat to open even with cardboard in front of the radiator it would run around 160-170........
My thought process is, there is no regulator in coolant flow. Coolant is pushed around at 100% with no regulator. The purpose of the thermostat is to slow the flow down so that the radiator can work from the very beginning. When the motors coolant reaches the hot side of the thermostat, this will open depending on heat. When the thermostat opens, it cycles cool coolant back to the motor which causes the thermostat to close or restrict flow.. causing the radiator to actually work and cool the fluid for the next cycle. With no thermostat there is no regulator and hot water is cycled all the time. There will be some cooling from the radiator but as you increase rpm, you increase gallons per minute. You also increase air flow but heat transfer out of material is a hard thing to accomplish with movement. Radiator is less than two weeks old. Again, this is my thought process and after moving some weight and driving the tractor around temps are at 170-190F
You may be right but my experience is like xpack's. Whenever I have had a thermostat stuck open [or missing] the motor would run cooler than normal. I've never heard of an engine running too hot from excessive coolant circulation. In any case, I'm glad the problem is resolved.
Sorry, that's not the way it works in this universe. Is this a bypass thermostat? one that closes off the passage back to the head at the same time it opens the passage to the radiator? If it stays under 200 and full, that's all that matters. :thumbsup
With no thermostat there is no regulator and hot water is cycled all the time. There will be some cooling from the radiator but as you increase rpm, you increase gallons per minute. You also increase air flow but heat transfer out of material is a hard thing to accomplish with movement. you are correct happens on race engines often water too fast thru radiator will not cool properly welcome to some better understanding of water cooling
I've seen farm tractors , especially Fords run high engine temps because no thermostat was in the housing . The water was moving to fast to absorb and disperse the heat. You could take the guts out of the t stat put the housing in and it would be fine just take it a while to get to temp in the winter.
I'm not trying to stir the pot (well maybe), but I commented earlier about the pitting that was evident in the liner (bottom photo) of post #26 in Bannerd's other thread. I am referring to the cavitation I mentioned. A thermostat stuck open could be the cause of it. I'm in agreement with Dickjr, an open or total lack of a thermostat is well documented to cause overheating in certain conditions. Especially race cars.
Maybe I'm just a little skeptical of the statistical validity of the Nascar crowd? Do you know where I could find any discussion of the details of a stuck open thermostat causing overheating? Everything I search sinks to the level of a dodge cummings forum. I can't see any way a stuck open thermostat would cause this engine to run 270. But I don't even know if it has a bypass or not?
Count me as skeptical too. Temp gauge never got to op temp as usual. I did see some fluctuation that told me the indicator was indicating. At tear down, thermostat with a broken weld, causing it to stay open. The only way I could see an open t-stat causing high temps is if the cooling system is under filled. The open t-stat would drain the radiator so instead of all the tubes filled, only the lower portion of the rad is working. I'd like to understand how too much flow can cause overheating.
it depends on the engine and the application, for race cars go spend a nite in the pits at a dirt track all the water pump pulley's will usually be as large as they can get them to slow them down , and to get away from race cars it all depends on the design of the engine and cooling system, I tried to take my old diesel mercedes t-stat out that stuck shut on me to find my car over heated even worse , thankfully I had tools with me and bent the bit that is suppossed to move a little bit all the way around just to get some flow so I could make it home and the car wont even get up to temp no matter how hard I abuse it In the NC heat untill I hit that deer a couple months ago anyways
I just did a Google search for engine overheating with no thermostat . On the red-dit website is a discussion, very heated at times in regards to engine overheating with no thermostat. There are mechanics in that discussion that have had personal experience with engines overheating with no thermostat. Flow rate seems to be one of the conditions that will cause or not cause overheating. Strange, but I cannot post the real name of the website. It keeps getting changed to a line of asterisks.
The only time I seen this happen was when the complete thermostat was removed. As many of you have seen , strange things happen at times to machinery. I think this may happen in different engine designs. But it does and has happened. None of this is worth getting angry about anyway. Like I said my case was with a 6610 Ford tractor. It always ran at the red mark but not in the red. I pulled the temp regulator out and ran it bush hogging and it got hot in a hurry. Put regulator in pan of water with temp probe at 180* it was fully opened. The other thing about this particular tractor , somebody had jacked the timing up on it as well.
Not withstanding race cars or timing issues that can both lead to overheating when the cooling system is working well or an engine design where a missing thermostat can be a real problem - the only reason I can think of for temporarily running a motor without a thermostat is because it stuck closed, overheated, and you don't have another one handy - and when that happened to me, the gauge read cooler than normal. The OP said he thought his was overheating due to a thermostat that was stuck open not missing. Anyone have any experience like that? Walker, maybe they use those big pulleys to slow the water pumps down because they aren't designed to run at 9000 rpms.
i can tell you from personal heating problems with non tractors. In my case water was flowing to fast threw the radiator causing the car to overheat so i installed a low flow thermostat.. Just recently on this trike i built i have radiator mounted sideways on trike so hardly any air flow. The thing overheated above 50 MPH with or without thermostat. I put a electronically controlled electric water pump on the 4.3 , set it to 175 degs and no overheating problems at all and no thermostat. It slows the water down to cool and speeds it up when it comes to temp . Retarded timing on a gas engine will case a heat problem big time..
I've never seen a thermostat stuck open cause overheating. A missing thermostat sure can cause overheating, because of the bypass, which includes most modern engines I've seen. All I can guess for this engine, if the thermostat was THE issue that caused the overheating, is that it was the wrong thermostat that didn't fit or operate correctly, or backwards, or was stuck only a little open so it was mostly bypassing. The engine had recent "work" done that already proved dubious. There's no telling what might have been done... An engine missing a thermostat that overheats doesn't mean the water is "moving through the radiator too fast". No matter how many people have that opinion, no matter how heatedly. The redd it censor reminds me of back in my single days when I was on hotasianchicksinsearchofcrankyrightwingnutjobs.com and posted a funny pic of a friend of mine with the caption "he's single and on vegidate dot com if anybody's interested". The site edited out the mention of vegidate, afraid of the "competition"
This is the type pump ive used in my street cars and on my trike. They tell you to remove thermostat and explain how water can move to fast to cool engine in the tech section . I think if water is moving to fast in engine it cant capture the engine heat fast enough and maybe leave hot spots in engine that could create steam pockets in severe applications.. Who knows , can only says what works for me. http://daviescraig.com.au/category/electric-water-pumps
Auto parts stores sell thermostats that are designed to lock in the open position if the motor overheats. Seemed like a good idea to me after dealing with enough that stuck closed. It wasn't that much more.
From the FAQ's above: "Is the idea that coolant can pass too quickly through a radiator true? The "pump too fast lose less heat” notion is very popular and many experienced mechanics are very attached to it but – it is a fallacy. Davies Craig has been carrying out research and development for over a decade on a number of projects and has never been able to pump genuine liquid coolant faster and lose less heat. In all car engines, when the mechanical pump reaches cavitation speed, coolant turns into a gaseous state which is compressible,(liquid is not) and the real flow rate of liquid coolant drops even though the mechanical pump has a higher rpm, and so heat loss drops. The engine temp then rises. And it only seems like the flow rate is too fast, and the coolant is spending too little time in the radiator to lose its heat etc. etc.."
DARN ,hang on here long enough and even us old farts learn something new. Ive king of thought the water was getting hot spots and steaming but missed that in davies faqs. The electric pump solved the problem in my case in several other of my projects . They kicked the mechanical pumps azz when all else failed from changing pully speed to radiator swaps..lol
Delmer... Cavitation makes sense to me as a cause of over heating. I can see if the t-stat is removed, then the pump may cavitate. Since the pressure the pump sees is reduced. Edit To add: besides the lack of bypass block
hosspuller, I'm not trying to be disagreeable - I'm just trying to understand how the back pressure from the thermostat prevents cavitation. To me, it seems as likely or more to occur with the thermostat [not accounting for the bypass] at the rpm's required to cause it in the first place. It seems like the increased return flow would compensate for the reduced back pressure in a pressurized cooling system that's full with no air pockets but I'm no expert - just a hack trying to make sense of it all. Maybe it has to do with the design of the pump, the radiator, and the whole system. If it was designed to have a thermostat, it should have one, I just thought cavitation was caused more by high rpm or air in the system than lack of back pressure on the pump. It's not a subject I know much about but I'm trying.
The website quote seems to say that cavitation is caused by high RPM (from the evil mechanical water pump, buy our electric) which makes sense to me. That has little to do with the thermostat, I THINK the inlet pressure is most important for cavitation? Cavitation causing a lack of circulation, versus the water flowing "too fast" would be easy to prove or disprove by taking temp measurements of the radiator, something I've never seen. And don't expect to see as proof of the water moving too fast.
Even without a thermostat, I can't see coolant moving too fast through a radiator to cool it or too fast through a motor to pick up adequate heat with the small impeller fins on a water pump and the small passages in a radiator. I can understand some company trying to get away with an undersized or marginally sized radiator in an attempt to save a buck - more with cars than equipment although both have gone cheap on quality - some worse than others. The core in my 1970 580CK is original and perfect. Who thinks the radiator in their new any make any model will still be fine almost 50 years from now?
Grady.... like you, I'm only trying to understand the mechanics of equipment (I've given up understanding women ! ) As I see the issue... First. cavitation is bubbles forming on a moving surface. That surface could be a propeller or a vibrating cylinder liner. The bubbles are vapor in the fluid. Anything that vaporizes the fluid is a cause of cavitation. Heat vaporizes fluid. We've all seen boiling. Low pressure vaporizes fluid. This is common yet unseen. Freeze drying is an example. The food is placed into a vacuum chamber and the air pressure is lowered. The lowered pressure makes the water in food boil/vaporize at freezing temperature. Presto .. the food is dried but not exposed to high temperatures. Okay ... so a lower pressure in the pump leans it toward boiling (bubbles) The fluid is already at high temperature. The propeller surface is drawing a fluid vacuum as it moves the fluid. The moving propeller has bubbles forming on it. Presto ... Cavitation. Another point.. Return flow. It's going to be at a lower pressure than the outlet. The cooling system is not closed hydraulically, there is an expansion tank and flexible hoses that contribute to pressure differential. That's how I see it. Am I incorrect or missing something ? I experienced this when designing pump systems for liquid butane. The stuff wants to vaporize all the time and cavitate in the pumps. The key was flow stability to the pump (we can't affect this, the engine is what it is) and outlet pressure control. The outlet pressure kept the butane from boiling as it moved through the pump.
hosspuller, I admit to not knowing enough about it to be able to decide if anyone is incorrect or missing something but I appreciate your attempt to clarify it for me. Your basic concepts seem right to me although I'm not sure they apply equally to a motor's cooling system. I tried to rule out the extremes like racing [high temp and high rpm's] because we all know those can lead to overheating even when nothing is wrong with the cooling system. The concept of coolant moving too fast also makes sense conceptually - it just isn't what is actually happening in this case. I can see why pressure is so important with butane but it doesn't seem as critical in this case to me. If my rig was overheating and my thermostat was stuck open, I'd look elsewhere for the cause. Just my 2 cents and yeah, don't even start with trying to understand the fairer sex - just smile and say, "You're right, dear."
I ran a 580 B without a thermostat for 5 years because when I put one in it would use antifreeze and without not a drop. When I sold it I told the new owner don't install a thermostat for that reason. Talked to him 2 years later and it was still going strong and the temp. never did get up into the operating range but didn't seem to have any ill effects.
Billrog ...Thats been my experience with the tractors i have played with as far as cooling .I dont remember any of them overheating unless something else was wrong to create the problem........I get the idea about race cars or a built motor but i have never ran into it pumping to fast but like Grady says im just another hack working on this stuff and learning something new all the time ......This thread has certainly made me think out of the box.......... good stuff...........
My 580 C came with a radiator cap that didn't even reach the overflow vent hole so it's as if it wasn't even there. I've seen quite a few cases where people left the cap loose to prevent a leak that only happened when the system was pressurized. A lot of things go on that are less than optimum but seem to work out OK - esp. with the old stuff. The new ones with all those computer sensors and trouble codes don't take as kindly to improvising but I guess if you can afford one of those, you can afford to fix it right.
Grady .. Here we're only considering cavitation as a cause of low flow from a pump. I brought up liquid butane as an extreme example. It's liquid only under pressure at room temperature. Otherwise it's a gas. Looking at the extreme is like using a magnifying glass. In my case when trying to start the pump on butane, if the outlet was not closed, the pump would cavitate on start up and not build pressure. When the pump was dead headed at start up and outlet slowly opened to bleed pressure into the system... staying below the point of cavitation... full flow and pressure was achieved. Here's the point. keeping back pressure on the pump was the opposite of vacuum. Like a pressure cooker, the added pressure kept the fluid from boiling (cavitating) Putting a t-stat after the pump is a flow restriction increasing the pump back pressure ... (preventing cavitation) Even an open t-stat is more restriction than none at all.
hosspuller, I understood your example, I'm just not sure it's apples to apples. I think we all agree that cavitation will cause a lower flow from a pump but a volatile liquid like butane will change into a gas if it isn't kept under considerable pressure and that gas like air or water vapor will cause cavitation. Water or coolant doesn't do that so I don't know about the slight increase in back pressure from the thermostat being responsible for preventing cavitation in a motor's water pump. I'm also skeptical because I've seen some motors run cooler with no thermostat. Might depend on design. I'm not claiming to be right, I'm just going by my own experience and I appreciate you and everyone sharing the info. Like xpack said - good stuff. Air pockets can also be a source of overheating when refilling the cooling system.
I was travelling through the mts. in the 1960 tys and my car started boiling pulled in a garage and the guy told me I needed a new 12# rad cap. I was very skeptical but I drove that 1958 olds for another 5 yrs. and it never boiled again. The only purpose I can see for a thermostat is to get the engine up to operating temp. Every vehicle I've owned in the past every few years I would flush the rad and before adding antifreeze remove the thermostat and drive with straight water for 10 miles or so none of them ever got more than luke warm hardly moving the temp. gauge. BTW I now use distilled water with my antifreeze and no longer practice this ritual.
Grady, butane at room temp and whatever pressure to keep it liquid is no different than coolant at 10 psi and whatever temperature keeps it at that pressure, any loss of pressure causes either to turn to gas. I'm not familiar with butane, only a little with hydronic heat. The big difference is that butane starts out at it's boiling point, usually with hydronics or engine cooling systems they start cold and work up to max temp where the cavitation happens. Also, you probably don't have to worry about air bubbles in butane? I'll have to try the starting the pump with the valve closed, or maybe it only works for certain pump designs.
Just an update, I dug out around hundred tons of sand for our basement. We removed some huge pine trees, after working the hoe for a few minutes getting the stump out, the motor stayed at a cool 200F. It was about 100F in the sun and I have to say.. the valve that shuts the hot water off to the heater does not work because that little round thing was throwing the heat! I only got the coolant to 220F when I was carrying the stump about a mile back into the woods where there is a hole. It seems like long hauls are what generate the heat. Needless to say, when I arrive back the temp was stuck at 130F.. the water temp gauge I bought from TSC crapped out. I hope this dang thing was accurate all along! I went back and they exchanged it for the same one (country line or something). To put the cherry on top, after parking the hoe, I saw a steady ****** of oil pouring out between the bell housing and engine. Hydraulic fluid.. after talking to dale I'm going to remove the tranny and put a seal on the pump. Hopefully that is all it needs. I don't have the funds for a transmission rebuild/replacement.
Delmer, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I was skeptical that the extra back pressure provided by the thermostat - even when stuck open - was a contributing factor in preventing pump cavitation. The cooling system is still at the same pressure if it gets to the same temp - which has not been my experience - although there is likely slight additional pressure between the pump and the thermostat.
Grady, I said inlet pressure was responsible for cavitation, Hosspuller said outlet pressure was, I'll defer to his experience. We all agree pressure and temperature are factors. Butane is almost by definition at the boiling point in storage (there's always enough space for some vapor so that the pressure is based on the boiling point at that pressure and temperature). The only additional pressure to prevent cavitation is provided by the head/height of liquid above the pump level. Same thing in a car engine at a certain point, the pressure is maintained by the boiling coolant, and the head on the water pump is usually a foot or less in a car, maybe two feet in a tractor. Very little to prevent pump cavitation at THAT POINT. The difference is the air (as opposed to vapor, or LACK of air space) in a radiator could maintain the pressure higher than the cavitating point before the coolant reaches the boiling point. IF the outlet pressure is any factor at all in preventing cavitation, then it seems it would be at least as important as the one foot of head that the water pump otherwise operates in, if that. I agree that the lack of thermostat makes it less likely to get to that point, and none of this rambling hijack offers any support for the water "moving too fast to transfer heat".
New Holland 06 C190 New to this forum. I have a 06 New Holland C190 and it will not start. It turns over but will not start. I can't get the boom up because it does not have a service/toggle switch. Can't get into the engine bay to test or check anything. Any suggestions on what it could be? Thanks for any advice.
amedina ... Welcome to HEF .. You will get more advice if you start a new thread with a descriptive title instead of burying your ? in an old thread.
Yes ... this is a rambling hi-jack but .. fun stuff. It's good to test one's understanding against the world. There is yet another factor in cavitation... Liquid volatility or boiling point. My butane example is part of this. First of all we need to remember we're speaking about microscopic areas of low pressure to start. There is enough pressure at the pump inlet & outlet for the liquid to be liquid. The impeller or cylinder liner is the surface making the vacuum that lowers pressure enough to create a small boiling bubble. Water boils at 100 degrees C. Water and antifreeze boils at a higher temp. So the mix should be more resistant to cavitation. (I would think) Can we agree that anything that resists boiling ... resists cavitation? Reducing the vacuum generated by slowing the impeller speed, Or in close relation... changing the shape of the impeller to eliminate quick shape changes, Increasing the liquid pressure by increasing the suction head or back pressure, Increasing the boiling point of the liquid with additives. I think we also need to remember the whole cavitation problem is a cliff. One step over the cliff by half a degree or half a PSI creates the problem. A half step before the cliff, means normal operation. In other words, a very small change makes a big difference.
Hey Bannerd please keep us posted on the temp gauge thing after you get back up and running .... Dale knows his stuff with these for sure he helped me a ton with my ck and is very willing to help like that .......Im not sure of the exact differences between you 580c and the my 580ck but i know on mine there is a gasket that goes between the bell housing and the motor and mine had started leaking there so i split it and replaced it ....I know yours is newer model than mine and the 580b is real close to the 580ck but i think the 580c like yours are quit different....... I think Grady has a 580c in his inventory of equipment he might be able to give you some ideas...........
He already did in post #8 on page one I cant believe this is still going !!
Bannerd, sorry for causing or perpetuating this hijack but it is directly related to your original problem so I guess it's not completely out of line. I'm glad you got that problem cleared up. I can't help with your new leak. Like xpack, I've split my CK but I haven't been that deep into the "C" yet - I'm still working on the peripherals. My C has never had an overheating problem but I've never run it hard when it was !00 degrees, either. That will test the cooling system. The fins are starting to rot out of the core but it isn't leaking yet. I was going to have it recored but the guy wanted $500.00 and that wasn't for anything fancy. I think I saw a whole new radiator for around $200.00 on ebay so I just put the old one back in. There was some nasty goop in the cooling system when I pulled the radiator so I flushed it out good and put new coolant in and I'll do it again before I put in a new radiator but no overheating problems yet. hosspuller, I agree with all your concepts about cavitation. I just don't think they apply to this situation. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and sure won't be the last. Delmer, I would think the issue would be butane gas - not air or water vapor but same concept with a different fluid. The big difference to me is that cavitation is virtually inevitable with butane in the situation hosspuller described due to it's very volatile nature - whereas coolant is ultra stable and unlikely to boil in a working cooling system under normal conditions. In my mind, if your coolant is boiling, something is wrong. I've worked plenty of motors hard in the heat that didn't overheat. I can see how high rpm's like in racing could whip that coolant into a froth like a margarita in my blender causing cavitation and resulting in overheating - Probably why they run those big pulleys to slow the water pump down thinking it slows the flow down when it is really speeding it up.
I thought i read in this last post he had a bad gauge and was going to replace it not trying to keep this going and i hope he does have it fixed ...........
Grady ... besides specific gravity... Liquid butane is just like water. If we were on a planet that had a surface temperature of 215 degrees F water would act just like butane does here. It would boil in your coffee cup as you held it.
Aren't you pretty much admitting it's apples to oranges when you have to preface with. " If we were on a planet…..."? If you really think they're so similar, fill your cooling system with liquid butane and fire that rig up - cavitation will be the least of your worries. and except that butane boils at a temp lower than the freezing point of water, would give you frostbite if you touched it, and is highly volatile, flammable, and explosive - they are practically twins. Sorry for the sarcasm - it's just an attempt at humor. I get your point, I just disagree. No big deal - you may be right.
That is why i went the EWP. (electric water pump )worked in racing and on my hot street strip machines when i lived in FL for me. Till this thread i thought i was pushing water to fast to cool and still think that in some cases.. The ewp speeds or slows the flow as needed no matter what the engine RPM is.. Now on the Trike it solved the overheating asap above 50 mph