I need to replace a cam bearing on my 1972 case 580b with a 188 Diesel and power shuttle. Given how much I'm going to have to take the tractor apart, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to go through the entire machine and fix anything that needs to be addressed. I would like some advice on certain things. First, I would like suggestions on companies with a good selection and good prices for case parts. I would prefer to order all my parts from a single supplier (not case), and I'm going to be ordering a variety of parts. My next issue is the radiator. It seems OK for now (no leaks), but I would like to do something to it while I have it out. Has anyone ever tried an acid flush? Finally, does anyone know common problems with the 580B? I hear they can have front-end issues. If there are any potential problem spots I would like to know what to look for. I'll try and post some pictures as this project progresses. I'll appreciate any help you guys can give.
Alright I've got the thing pretty ripped apart and need help. How do I disconnect the engine from the bell housing? Here are some pics. Here is the machine in question after a little deconstruction. Here is the remains of the cam bearing. Here is where I'm stuck. Need some help here.
Not exactly sure how to help you CasIns - the tractor needs to be split to remove the engine. That would need to be done with loader frame in the raised position. I take it you don't have a service manual?
CasIns, most raise the loader all the way up and use a safety bars on the lift cylinders to hold them up, also the bachoe is let down to the floor.You block up to the loader support frame and the engine along with front end comes out the front. At the pic i would get the four pins out of the bucket and slide it away to the side, block both sides of rear tires, install hyd jack where the lower swing pin is on the backhoe, install to wedges to the front axle so it will not flop, if you have another machine to lift with, hook a chain to the tube between the lift arms and hold the lift control lever while raising, install angle iron/safety bars and tie them off, lower the frame. Install hyd jack under tq tube close to engine area, unhook the pipe fittings that screw in at the front into the loader frame hyd res. re check your cribbing to support the loader frames as it will be supporting against the jack at the rear of the backhoe. move you floor crane in hook the engine and front support, remove the side bolts where the loader frame bolts to the rad area, check for other parts to come off, roll engine and front end out together. This will test your nerves if you have never done this before, keep work area clear and clean, no kids ,pets, i have seen them come crashing down before and you have to make alot of adjustments while doing these older machines. If you can unlock the hoe i would also put it down on the ground it will make it more stable. Be carefull, look like a good shop to work in, more later if needed.
Thanks for the advice sheepfoot. I have a power shuttle shift. Is there anything that is going to connect the engine and transmission, or should they just slide apart? Do I have to open the top cover of the shuttle and disconnect anything? I do have a service manual. I don't know if its missing pages, but it doesn't cover splitting the tractor like I want to do or as sheepfoot described.
The unit should slide apart, the converter and drive should stay with the tube, it is a lot of work either way, it's been several years since i did a ck/b machine.
i am new to these tractors but i have a 1970 580ck and my neighbor has a 580b and they look very similar as far as the motor and trans i just bought mine and it wouldnt move it has sheared the woodruff key that holds the gear on for the shuttle pump so im replacing it and i have read one post on here where this has happened to someone else also and a lot of people are having issues with the pickup screen for this pump clogging it is kinda a pia to tear apart so you may want to check these out whil the engine is out im sure it would be a lot easier then anyway good luck
Is the torque converter bolted to the flywheel or will it just slide apart? The manual said something about taking the shuttle shift lid off and removing computer links???
I've just been through this engine deal in a '67 580CK. Am in the middle of repairing the shuttle now. Both procedures I've tried to document somewhat on this site. Regardless of that I'm interested in what computer links might be present in a 1972 model hoe. I'm just curious. Thanks, Packratc
Yeah, I'm not too sure what the manual was talking about there. Thanks for the help so far guys. Next weekend I will have some help and I'm gonna split the tractor based on sheepfoot's recommendations. I'm still not clear on how exactly the engine is connected to the transmission and what implications this will have when I try to pull the engine. If anyone can give me a detailed explanation of what to expect that would be great. Right now I'm looking for a company to buy the parts from. I'm probably gonna end up needing an engine overhaul kit, water pump, thermostat, maybe a new wiring harness, and whatever else pops up. Any suggestions for companies with good prices and selection?
CasIns, if you go to Packratc post roughest 580ck ain't moving, he has done a rear split to go into the shuttle, in his post #38 it shows the converter still in the tq tube with it pulled away from the flywheel. He has done the reverse of what you are doing since he had to go into the shuttle. His machine shows the hoe removed,fenders and ROP's, seat/floorboards,backhoe frame all removed. Then as you can see the loader frame along with front end and engine are supported while the rear end and tq tube has been rolled back to make room to work on it since it still had to come apart more. In his post # 51 it shows the area down in the tq tube where the pump drives, you will see some parts pages also that show the pump and covers, and valves you will not be going in here since you are working on the engine end. You may need a spreader block to push the front frame apart to give some clearance while your pulling the engine and front end back. Packratc can you post a pic of the flywheel if you have one for CasIns or confirm it slides apart since your in one currently.
Requested pictures , Hold on to your hat, we're going to see if this picture thing works. Packratc So far, so good! Upper right photo is newly assembled torque converter held by Chico and about to be inserted into torque tube. Note the gear teeth right above the rubber seal. Top left pic is of rear of engine still mounted in frame. Bottom photo is close up of flywheel. Note the gear teeth around the out edge. They, nicely enough, engage with the gear teeth on the torque converter. Engine turns-torque converter turns. The splines in the middle of the crankshaft are not utilized with the shuttle transmission. I failed to notice that the bottom photo needs to be rotated 90 degrees. I'm afraid to attempt it in this message. I've pushed this new knowledge thing too far. Best of luck! Packratc
When I pushed the final "Post Reply" the pictures moved on me. Too much new stuff for me to get to work all in one reply. Packratc
Well fellas thanks for the help and pics, its been very informative and saved me plenty of aggravation. I didn't have much free time this weekend but I managed to get her split. It got pretty scary at times but it went well in the end. Packrat I've been slowly reading through your thread and I found some other things I will take care of. My machine also grinds alot when shifting, so it looks like I'll be replacing those 3 seals in the shuttle shift. Anything else you guys would recommend? Here's some pics. There was a little material in the tranny, but not too bad.
Caslins, Did you check the end play between the shims on the shuttle out put shaft? I think, & it's just my opinion, that the excessive play there caused my shuttle to shift too far and one of those three hook ring seals came out of the torque tube bore. Packratc
Try "Tractorstuff" 800-428-8183, or (765)-378-3396, www.e-backhoeparts.com for parts. they have been a great help to me.
Thanks for the tips guys. Packrat's thread has been very helpful, but I'm hoping I don't have to tear into the shuttle as much as him. Can someone explain the naming system for 580s? As I understand it, B, C, D etc are the different generations of the 580. The construction king (CK) is a model offered for each generation? So my machine is a 580B CK, correct? Was there a 580A CK, or is it just called a 580CK? I'm looking in to getting parts, and I just want to make sure I get the right stuff.
Well the engine is apart and is in mostly very good condition, see the pics below. Someone last overhauled her back in 78, and it wouldn't surprise me if she's been running without the cam bearing for many, many years. I'm debating on whether to buy a new cam. The journal with the missing bearing really isn't that bad. What do you guys think? Journal that lost its bearing: Good journal:
I'm also facing another dilemma. The machine grinds alot when shifting gears. Based on what I've read on here it seems like this is caused by bad seals in the shuttle. Can anyone confirm this? I need to decide whether I'm going to pull the torque converter and shuttle, but I don't want to do it needlessly. Thanks for the help guys.
CasIns, I'm far from an expert but between that bad bearing journal and the wear on the cam lobe in the pic of the good journal I would probably spring for an aftermarket camshaft ($250). Just my 2 cents. Jimr
If the hook seals came out of place that far you have way more problems than a few thousanths shimming loosness, the reason that you check the shimming clearance upon disassembly is so you can add shims to keep it in spec upon reassembly, sliding it apart and back together numerous times gets to be a drag. There is way more margin of error than to let the ring out of the bore than an even .050 or more gap would allow. A plate getting out of place in the rear clutch drum would be more of a concern and that would be way extreme. Mel
Any more suggestions on the transmission? The machine grinds when I try to shift gears (1st, 2nd etc). Any ideas of what the problem might be? Should I just go all in and pull shuttle since I have the engine out?
CasIns, I think you can take off the cover and see the shims at the end of the shuttle and determine if there's too much clearance without removing the shuttle. If the clearance is too great I think you better consider looking at the shuttle. If I'm wrong about this I hope someone will chime in and say so. Good Luck! Packratc
CasIns, The 580ck and 580b were not built like the newer machines, first the main shaft in these did not have a synchronizer for shifting the 4 speed gear box, this being said the operators manual states ( gear shift lever) the tractor must be stopped and the foot clutch brake pedal (power shuttle) depressed before shifting into any gear range. Release pedal to operate tractor. Power shuttle F/R lever , once gear is engaged say 1st you can move from F/R with out pressing the pedal, Caution make changes of direction of tractor at safe speed and use good sense. Clutch-brake pedal ( power shuttle) depressing the pedal will disengage the power clutches within the first 1 1/2 inch of travel and the remainder of travel applies braking force to the tractor and once again pedal most be depressed when selecting gear shift work range. There is a adjustment listed for the dump valve that has to be set and would be hard to check at this stage, with it apart. I would think about the shifting done since you have had it and see if it falls in the guide line of the operators manual. The grinding could be a dump valve issue adjustment with the pedal not cutting the flow off, but then again sounds like no shift on the fly also.
Thanks for the ideas guys. The clutch pedals adjustments were very bad on the machine (virtually no travel) so I'm hoping it is just an adjustment issue.. However, I'm going to follow Packrat's advice and take a look in the shuttle compartment. Hopefully no nasty surprises!
It took me a while but I got the block and cylinder head cleaned up. 40 years of grime doesn't come off too easily. Both are in real good shape with no cracks or anything nasty. Does anyone know where I can get a complete OUT-of-frame overhaul kit for the 188 diesel? All the kits I've seen seem to be limited to in-frame applications. I'd really like to find one that has all the gaskets and cam bearings.
CasIns, I had good luck with these guys in the past... But I have not odered this kit, yet. http://www.agkits.com/Case-188-G188D-Diesel-Engine-Rebuild-Kit.aspx Just have to add the cam bearings with the link below it. Dave
my lowder was hard to get in geer. Was A40994 broke springs I remember numbers good
Well I've hit a snag with this project. I installed the new cam bearings but the camshaft doesn't fit! It turns out the new cam bearings need to be honed prior to installing the cam shaft. No machine shops around here can do it so I think I'll end up doing it by hand. Any thoughts?
Certainly a lot of folks here know more about this than I do. Have you consulted the manual? Are all the cam bearings the same size on these 188's? Have you miked the bearings and the cam? How much do you have to hone to get the right clearance? Are these bearings babbit over copper? How thick is the babbit? Maybe all these answers are in my manual which is out in the shop but I hope you educate us for future endeavors? Thanks, Packratc
You most likely have the wrong camshaft bearings. Do you still have the old ones to do a comparison ? Whenever you remove cam bearings it is advisable to mark them as to which position and direction they were installed originally. It is critical that the oil holes are properly aligned in the block. Hopefully you are using a tool similar to the one in the picture. I always take a new bearing to a local machinist and he makes an exact fit tool for me. I think the last one he made was $20.00.
Post removed... I was confused.... Dave
Well more bad news with this project. I had a machinist come down and hand scrape the bearings. The cam fit like a charm after that. The problems came when I was giving the engine block the last cleaning before assembly. I first noticed a small crack in the left front most oil pan bolt hole. Then I noticed a crack extending from the upper left bolt hole where the engine block and the front of the tractor connect. I will try and get some pictures tomorrow, but basically it seems like the front lower left corner of the engine is getting ready to crack off. I don't know how I missed this until now, but it seems like I'm pretty screwed since this is a structural part of the tractor. I'm open to any suggestions here guys. I'm pretty far up the creek since I already bought a bunch of shiny new parts for the rebuild. Any ideas of how to do a repair that will hold up to the stresses on the tractor?
Well the tractor was saved the fate of the scrapyard despite the cracked engine block. A very experienced welder friend patched it up as best he could with some Ni Rod and then remachined the surface. It turned out pretty good for cast iron and hopefully the tractor won't crack apart now. We've been working steadily putting the machine back together. It doesn't help that half the stuff is broken or damaged and needs to be repaired/replaced. There's also plenty of cleaning to do, and 40 years of oily dirt and mouse feces accumulation doesn't come off easily. Who would have thought extensive repairs on antique equipment could be so much fun? Anyways, here's some more pictures. Its starting to look like a tractor again! Remachined and repaired head:
All that work and no paint .CasIns its not to late .Slide the motor back and give her a squirt of some fresh case yellow
CasIns......Not sure if you still monitor your thread here, but I just read all your efforts.....my hats off to you for dealing with all those problems, staying cool, staying the course, and getting the engine done right. Give us an update sometime, maybe some pics of the finished project.....or is it more repairs being done?
I hope you replaced the lifters or had them resurfaced, that lobe that was destroyed on the cam will have damaged the lifter as well, running a new cam on that badly worn lifter will destroy your new cam. A good engine shop can probably reface it but the lifter has a slightly convex shape that is critical to proper contact.
CasIns, Regretfully, I have not monitored this site for quite some time. I thank you for your compliments of my work on that cursed beast. I most assuredly would have not completed it without the support & advise I received from this forum. My report of the old CK is that she is alive & well. I never have finished her. Alas, I think I even let water get into her cylinders & she might have a blown head gasket. But, I am glad to say that I can go out there right now & she'll start almost instantly. After a few minutes of warming up she'll go forward & in reverse. All her appendages are operational. I need to build a couple of cylinders and I have perpetual leaks. But from where I was, she's a fine machine. I'll try to be more diligent about attending this site. It's a wonderful resource as it's members share tremendous experiences and a wealth of knowledge. Again, Thank you, packratc
Hi all, it's been a while, I lost track of the thread as I got deeper into the backhoe project. I probably was only half way through it when I stopped updating. But, believe it or not, the machine got back together and I've been working her hard the past 2 years. Next weekend I'll try and get some pics of the finished product and outline the rest of the project.
CasIns......Excellent! Your work gives me inspiration to keep chopping away at the restoration of my 1968 580B CK....and I will continue to post alot of pics and tricks I learn from doing repairs. Looking forward to more of your updates.