I got a Case 580SE Backhoe a few months ago. It had almost no forward drive but reverse seemed fine. I did the pressure gauge checks in the manual and found the forward clutch pressure to be lower then reverse and figured that the forward clutch discs were probably shot. (Bad choice) I removed the shuttle, disassembled it and found the discs did not look very bad but since I had bought the full rebuilt kit I redid everything. I was hoping the discs were bad enough that they were the problem. Now I have it all back together and running and still no forward. I am going to put the gauge back on it and see if the results are any different. What else should I do?? I have already decided I am probably going to have to pull the shuttle again and see if there is something that I missed. I hate doing this again but I think it has to be something in the shuttle. Also, there are no wires on the solenoid cutout so I figured it’s not the problem. Any ideas will be great. Thanks
I have done all of the pressure tests and they all look good. All of them are a few pounds higher then before and tests 3&5 and 4&6 (forward & reverse clutch circuits) are exactly the same now where 3 & 4 were both lower before I rebuilt the shuttle. I have no idea why I have no forward motion. I guess the next step is pull the shuttle again.
Find where those solenoid wires are and check the ends of them for making contact. Floor cutout switch been ruled out as a problem ? Not a linkage problem ? Going fully into forward position ?
There are no wires going to the solenoid body at all. Yep, I have checked the linkage and it is going all the way.
I might be doing the clutch circuit pressure test on the wrong port. I have been removing the 3/8” pipe plug on top. I see there is a 1/8” pipe plug next to it. (It seems to be seized and will not come out). Am I using the right port or is that part of my problem? Thanks
Do you need the pressures parameters from the service manual ?
I have the service manual and that’s what I used but I’m not sure that I connected the pressure gauge to the correct port. I used port #13 because #12 is not coming out (see pictures)
Hit #12 with a hammer a couple of times it will come out.
Do you think that’s the one I need to connect to?
I think I might be able to use #24, (see picture) I think it is on the same line as the test port. Also, is it possible that the Control Valve is screwed up? Do they give problems? Thanks
It is clearly shown in the service manual Jed. Yes, the piston can cause problems. Page 6202 - 7 shows the forward (direction) oil flow along with the test port.
I think I will pull it apart and take a really close look at the pistons. I am guessing (hoping) that it is the problem. Thanks
I have the shuttle all apart and everything looks perfect. I have double, triple checked all of the o-rings, seals, clutch discs and I don’t see anything wrong. I guess I will put it all back together, put it back in the backhoe and try the pressure tests again. Hope for different results?? I think this is the definition of insanity!!
I have been reassembling the shuttle and found a lot of marks on the inside of one side of the Forward Clutch Ring Gear. Does anybody think this will cause a problem? I am not sure what it came from either. The Cylinder and Piston assembly doesn’t appear to have marks on the outside. Thanks
Those machine marks on the inside of the ring gear are visible in most I've ever seen - perfectly normal. The snap ring in picture #1 acts as a spacer & should measure between .090" - .093" - is that how yours is? The assembled clearance for the clutch pack (dry) - I usually set between .025" - .030" - yours is how much?
Yep, .093 thick on the ring and about .035 clearance on the clutch pack. I was worried on the marks because they are only on one side but I guess nothing in there moves and the cylinder fits pretty tight so I guess it’s ok.
The 4 steel hook/seal rings are OK? Any wear marks in their working areas? The 2 soft seal rings on the end of the mainshaft OK? Fwd piston seals all still OK? Is there any wear marks on the main housing where the FNR control lever stops hit the housing? - sometimes these wear & the control valve over selects the oil ports. Is there any grooving in the bore for the control valve? There is a small expansion plug on one end of the mainshaft - still in place & tight? You may need to post more pics of different parts - we just may randomly see something.... I have to ask this - when you are attempting to drive the machine you were in first or second gear?
All new seals and rings. I’ll have to look on the inside of the housing where the control valve goes and see if there appears to be any wear. The expansion plug is there and I blew air through just to make sure it was all clear. Yes, was using first gear. Before i rebuilt the shuttle it would move a little in forward if you revved it but it felt like it was slipping really badly. After rebuilding, I seemed to have ok reverse and no forward. If I put the trans in neutral the driveshaft turned slowly in forward and spun really fast in reverse.
I don’t see anything out of the ordinary on the Control Valve Body or in the housing where it lives. Here are a few pictures.
Could we see some pictures of the charge pump - dismantled. Curious if you replaced the torque converter / had it rebuilt? Reverse piston was installed with smooth side of piston facing into the carrier? The control valve plunger operation usually has a "double click" sound as the outer plunger strikes the inner dump valve - is that how yours feels/sounds? Just thinking if the solenoid has not been working for a long time, the dump valve maybe sticky. Also what were the actual pressure readings you got while testing?
I didn’t do anything with the torque converter since it seemed to be fine in reverse. I’ll see what the pressures that I wrote down tomorrow but I think I was getting them from the wrong location. I have it all back together so I am planning on putting it back in and try doing the pressure readings from the other port.
The pressures I recorded after I rebuilt it were: 1) 80 psi 2) 145 psi 3) 80 psi 4) 145 psi 5) 75 psi 6) 145 psi 7) 28 psi 8) 28 psi 9) 28 psi The pressure before rebuilding were: 1) 70 psi 2) 130 psi 3) 55 psi 4) 130 psi 5) 65 psi 6) 140 psi 7) 25 psi 8) 25 psi 9) 23 psi Tests #1-6 were done by removing plug# 13 which I think is incorrect.
I put the shuttle back in. Things have gone from bad to worse! I have no forward or reverse now! I connected the pressure gauge to plug# 24 on the Cover which i think is connected to the same as Plug# 12 but I have zero pressure. I connected to Plug # 13 and I have about 90 psi at idle and about 140 psi at full throttle. Does not change in Forward, Neutral or Reverse. Help!
Man, I hate it for you. Wish I knew something about that machine. You didn't accidentally knock it out of gear? Might be something simple.
I wish and hope it’s something simple but I doubt it. I’m hoping for some of the experts on here to be able to unscrew me!! This shouldn’t be this hard!
All I can say is charge pump & control valve - Really need to see some pics of that pump - dismantled.... You haven't answered the earlier question about how the plunger feels on the control valve..... You need to dismantle the control valve & check the regulator piston & spring.
The Control Valve plunger moves in to a point and then you can feel it depressing something else, it goes another 1/8-1/4" more before it has a positive stop. Not sure if this makes sense. I can take lots of pictures when I have it apart again. Do you know if I should have any pressure at Pipe Plug# 24?
The service manual only gives 2 x test port locations. You need to get that tight plug out when you next remove the shuttle. I would imagine #24 would only measure Reverse or Lube
I tried with every size Allen wrench I could find but no luck. I then tried special easy outs for Allen plugs and they wont budge it. I was even using heat on it and no success, I think the only thing left would be to drill it and re-tap it and I didn't want to do that unless I completely disassemble the housing. Since it is such a small plug and it is pipe thread, unless I can set it up in the drill press it will be hard to drill it and tap it straight. I blew air thru plug #24 and it seemed like it came out of the hole that would be going up toward the #12 plug and out a hole where the Control Valve is.
Is test Port #1 supposed to be plug#13 (3/8” NPT) or plug #12 (1/8” NPT)? Thanks
I took a look into a different service manual (580C) to see if was clearer as to which plug is port #1 & it is - it's definitely the 3/8" plug #13.
I guess this is good because I get actual pressure readings from the 3/8" #13 Plug. Now the problem is that nothing changes in Forward or Reverse. Pressure is about 90 psi at idle and 140 psi at full throttle. At least I don't need to worry about getting #12 Plug loose or out.
Since I am seeing 140 psi at max RPMs does that mean the Charge Pump is ok?
I removed the solenoid completely and it didn’t change anything. Right now I have no movement Forward or Reverse.
Technically speaking, yes..... but pressure doesn't always indicate good oil flow. The transmission wont drive unless the plunger is depressed. MAKE SURE THE WHEELS ARE OFF THE GROUND & 4SP TRANSAXLE IS IN NEUTRAL KEEP YOUR BODY PARTS WELL CLEAR OF WHEELS IF YOU TRY DEPRESSING THE PLUNGER BY HAND WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING
Ok I will try depressing the plunger and see if anything changes. Is the next thing to remove it again or anything else to look at? Thanks
If you have not yet inspected the regulating piston & spring in the control valve, the control valve can be removed from the housing without removing the entire shuttle. **TIP - Just make sure you don't drop the detent ball into the hole created by removing the oil filler tube & fitting.....
I guess I will pull it and see if I see anything a miss and then the next thing will be the whole Shuttle.
Not trying to hijack the post but you said you heated the plug and it wont come out. do you have a cutting torch to do that or a propane torch? You need good heat. Get the biggest Torx bit you think you can drive in the allen socket hole.with a hammer. Heat the plug itself red hot and drive the Torx in it and wiggle it back out. As soon as the plug quits glowing red drive the bit back in and try to take it out. I bet it will give up then. Good luck.
Also-you may get lucky and heat the plug and hit it with a hammer and close the allen socket hole up and the bit will be tight enough to break the plug loose.
I was heating it with MAPP gas because my cutting torches are empty. Also I did not want to screw the case up with too much heat. As it turns out, it was the wrong pipe plug I was trying to remove anyway!! I will definitely remember trying a Torx bit next time!! Good idea. Thanks
Great ideas!! I will keep these in mind. Thanks
I have pulled the Shuttle again. Here are some pictures of the charging pump.
Wear marks on the backing plate look savage - it's had alot of trash go through it. There is that small raised section on the backing plate, where the bearing runs, I would imagine there is a wear groove on that also? More to one side? What do the mating area of the teeth look like? Can I see the pump drive tangs where they engage the converter? Did you inspect the regulating valve in the control spool?
See if these show what you need to see. I’m guessing I might need a new Charging Pump?? I don’t have the Control Valve apart yet.
Still difficult to see the wear on the teeth, but there does seem to be some poc marks on the working edges. The drive tangs have bad wear marks on them, indicating that the torque converter could also have problems (damaged sprag) - I don't recall if you have had it looked at? I would replace the pump, & the torque converter should be overhauled also. A stall test is how you test a converter, you would have had to test yours in reverse. Not saying this is your issue - but I have seen better looking pumps. Still pull apart the control valve to be sure the regulating piston moves freely & the spring is OK.
Are there places that can test or inspect the torque converter? Is this an expensive process? This last time before I removed it, it had no forward or reverse but the pressure tests appeared to be in spec.
No I doubt you will find anywhere to test them. They have to be cut open to be repaired & then welded together. You need to look for an automatic transmission repair shop or a specialized converter repair shop. Here they cost between $350 - $500 to be overhauled - depending on what needs to be done to them. They are a Borg Warner Industrial unit.
Here is place that may have a convertor. I have purchased parts from them myself. https://joseph.com/
Is it possible that the torque converter would be bad when it still had reverse before?
When you rebuilt the shuttle did you shim the spacing of the forward clutch pack correctly? Did you install the bevel spring in the right way and did you nick the piston seal for forward clutch. The torque converter being bad shouldn't just affect one clutch. Same way with the charge pump.
I measured the spacing and used the correct lock ring to get the gap. I think I put the bevel spring the correct way. I’m not sure if it would fit if it was flipped over. I don’t think I nicked any of the piston seals. All this being said, I have done something wrong or missed something. When I started this I had reverse but very little forward and now I have no forward or reverse! When I pulled the Shuttle apart everything looked pretty good but since I had purchased a rebuild kit I figured it would be best to freshen it up. This Shuttle definitely has been into before I got to it.
One other question are you sure you got the torque converter and pump splined in correctly? Another thing I just thought of is the two seal ring on the end of clutch shaft that goes into the planetary gear you may have cut them when you install the shaft I've done that before and you won't have forward or reverse.
Is it possible to get the Shuttle in place with the torque converter no engaged properly? I will inspect the sealing rings on the clutch shaft when I pull it apart again. They looked good that last time I had it apart but I am looking for anything that might be a problem.
Thanks, I will give them a call.
The shuttle should make contact with the bellhousing adaptor - by hand - without the use of retaining bolts.
Every time I have put it back in, i always use the long cutoff bolts to align it and I have slid it all the way in place by hand and then run all of the mounting bolts in by hand before using a wrench.
Here is the Control Valve. It all came apart fine. Am I missing something on it? Thanks
It looks OK - you just had to be certain the regulating valve was free to move & spring was OK. I've marked areas of the valve body which wear due to contamination in the oil - be certain that the corresponding work area inside the shuttle housing is not worn too much. The wear in the housing allows pressure to escape. Have you double checked the seals for the fwd piston? Not damaged?
Do you know what size it should be inside the housing? Or how much wear is too much?
The housing only wears in the corresponding work area I marked on the control valve. You will see a wear mark inside the housing. It should only be a visible wear mark - if it is grooved beyond say .020" the housing needs repairs or replacement. Repairing it requires re-boring the housing - fabricating a sleeve, with correct porting holes - pressing the sleeve into the housing - pegging it into location to prevent turning & fitting a new control valve. Sorry if this seems overwhelming, without actually seeing the shuttle, I can only advise what I have had to do to them over many years of repairing. It's all about controlling any pressure loss.
Do the Control Valves wear out also or is it normally in the Housing?
I don’t see any noticeable wear but the Control Valve does feel like it has some slop in the housing before you put it completely in place. So what should I do next?? Do I need to get a new Charging Pump? Or a Torque Converter? Should I pull the clutches out again? The last time I had 90-140 psi but no changes from Neutral to Forward or Reverse.
I have measured the Control Valve and the Housing. The difference is only about 0.004-0.005. I would think this should be acceptable?
I'm new to this but I pulled my shuttle had no power in forward. I replaced the reverse clutches waiting on forward disc. I put air pressure in the hole closing off back hole the aluminum center pushes clutch plates together giving u drive. My was hanging up somewhat so i sprayed it with lube oil though hole and worked it with air then put carb cleaner in it. Used air to work unit. Then after a while it was reliable. I have a problem . On the back . Forward side opposite the stem . I cant remember the configuration of the thrust and bearing. After I slide on the clutch housing I put a ring with teeth to match shaft then 2 ring clips 1 inside 1 outside. Then I think the thrust washer thin bearing and another thrust washer
Jed, I think all the answers for your problem are contained within this thread. There is no doubt something is wrong with your shuttle, but our ability to help you is limited to the constraints of the internet. Just about every possible cause for your problem has been brought to your attention. You probably need to dismantle the entire shuttle & look closely at each item of discussion. If there is something beyond what you can see or figure, you need to take the shuttle to someone who has the experience to figure this out for you. Generally, I replace the converter with an exchange unit on each repair I do, it's part of providing a warranty for my work.
I will pull it the rest of the way apart and look it all over again. I am thinking I might get a new (rebuilt) Torque Converter and maybe a new Charging Pump. I have to wonder if maybe I have the pressure required but somehow maybe not enough volume. I hate to throw parts at it but I am running out of tricks. I have called a few people and they are saying I have to bring the backhoe to them which will be expensive to transport and then it could be a couple of thousand to fix on top of the transport costs.
This is logical thinking. It happens to me all the time. I am constantly aware of what something did before I messed with it, and what it does afterward. Assembly mistakes and faulty new parts are my common faults. Sad to say sometimes we can't make up for an experienced eye. I wonder if you could beat the bushes some more, looking for someone who would work with you that you could bring it to and help you put it back together. This would be a word of mouth thing, a Case guy who has his own shop now or something like that.
Is it possible to clean a torque converter in the machine by filling torque tube with something and cranking it letting it circilate
Transmission repair shops have a special fixture that flushes the oil that they put the converter on. Make sure the area on the stub drive for the system pump is not worn crooked, if so the pump will be worn as well and both should be replaced.
I have ordered a new charging pump and a rebuilt torque converter. I have gone thru everything and spent a lot of time cleaning and deburring the spool in the Control Valve. Hopefully everything will be working properly in a few days.
I didnt split the tractor except at the shuttle. I replaced shuttle once . I gotta redo it . The original I'm redoing. Only the disc. It had no power. I found some disc abrasive gone here and there.i changed the disc and using air I'm flossing it with brake cleaner and pb blaster.im getting a smutty looking residue out of it. I believe it coming from the piston. It does move good with 120 lbs air but I think I'll get more pressure with oil. Psi I think is higher. I'm trying to figure this out. I'm learning alot. However I'm on the downhill side of the learning on these machines they on their way out. .
Can u post pictures?
Swampfoxo I wish you had started a new thread with your problem, when you started, you confused me greatly as we were dealing with a Borg reverser, no resemblance to the Rockford or twin Disc used in earlier machines. Guess I am getting old but it took me some time to shift gears. The converter is a bolt together unit on units like yours and easily serviceable once removed.
Was hoping to be posting results of the new Charging Pump and the Rebuilt Torque Converter additions but when I pulled the torque converter housing I found almost all of the mounting bolts were loose, stripped or missing. I ordered new 10mm bolts and helicoils. Hopefully things will be getting closer to a usable machine next week! 3 steps forward and 1 back! Someday I will get to rebuilding the swing cylinders!
Woo Whoo!! I have good forward and reverse!! When I removed the torque converter I found that it was replaced previously but they had not aligned it and the center stub shaft was very badly worn on one side. This also presented issues in the charging pump since the converter was not running true. Rebuilt the shuttle, de-burred the spool valve in the control valve, new charging pump and a rebuilt torque converter and all good now. Thanks for everyone's help with this!! Now on to the Swing Cylinders!
That's great news! I bet there was a dance party going on in the workshop after the moment of truth!
Yep!! Lots to celebrate! I took way too long to get to this point. Still to do: 1) Reseal Swing Cylinders 2) Fix steering column leak 3) Replace Serpentine belt 4) Change all fluids & filters
Good luck on finishing up on repairs. Spray the hyd. pump drive coupler with penetrating oil so it will slide back (Ha Ha) so you can slip belt between it and the pulley.
Yes, I have been trying to spray it every few days. It got lots of rust in that area so I know it will be a struggle to get it to slide. Luckily the belt that is on it is still intact but stretched or the wrong size so I can run it if needed.
Re changing the fanbelt..... On a 580E, (D & C also) I've always unbolted the hydraulic pump - most times still leaving all the hoses attached (maybe loosen suction hose clamps) - pull the pump out from the adaptor. There doesn't seem to be the same amount of workspace between the engine & radiator to get into those coupling bolts as there is on later models.