i been having problems with transmission. i have pulled the motor out is there anything i need to do before putting engine back in.
Hello blee62, try to avoid starting duplicate threads of the same problem. It will get disorganised for you. The person on the forum that is familiar with the 580B is Phil in Canada. You need to describe what problems your having with your tranny, give as much detail as you can and maybe Phil can help you out. He's usually here early in the morning and signs off before 9 at night. Try to give as much info as you can for him to noodle through.
under load transmission pops out of high or low gear. did not know while engine was out if there was any thing i should do?
Well, I'm not a B expert, but I think I can safely say the best time to do tranny repairs on one is while the engine is out. Try to think of anything else the tranny is doing. Is yours a power shuttle tranny? Or, is it a gearbox tranny with a fwd and rev gear and uses a clutch. Give all details you can think of for Phil to look over. He'll probably pop up here tomorrow.
it is a power shuttle.
when i am under load like going a hill i have to put foot on hi low lever to keep in gear.
should i put rebuilt engine in with the problems with transmission or look for another backhoe?
That would be a question best answered by Phil. Be patient...he'll show up. With you having "580B" in your thread title will catch his eye...trust me.
I have to agree with ATCOEQUIP, best to fix it now by taking the torque tube out. With a high/low lever you must have a direct drive machine with a dual range gearbox housed in the torque tube. That's my best guess. I don't think you are referring to the 4-speed transmission. I've never seen a B model with a high/low range. The lever probably comes out of the side of the torque tube. I will look at my CK manual to see if it shows the dual range and mechanical shuttle assembly, and get back to you tonight. Not usually an expensive repair, sometimes a fork, shifter rod, or endplay issue. I've had very little experience on mechanical gearboxes jumping out of gear so please jump in anyone. This type of problem would be similar on farm tractors like the older Case 530 and 430. Phil
My Case 680 has a four speed mechanical gearbox. It jumps out of gear also when under a load. If you can feel and see that the shift lever is putting the gearbox all the way into gear and it jumps out under load here is what I found . The gears are worn out. That is what my owners manual said to look for and I verified it by taking off the sheet metal inspection cover on the side of the transmission. The input shaft gear is worn so badly that the teeth look like knife blades. It is on the verge of stripping the teeth right off. I have a full set of new gears and all the bearings but have not been able to park the machine long enough to install them. It does not matter on my 680 weather the engine is in or out of the tractor. The transmission is behind the shuttle assembly and it will be a fairly simple job to remove and reinstall it. I saved about $800.00 by purchasing aftermarket gears and not genuine Case gears.
I checked my 580CK manual and yes it does show the dual range option. It is located in the torque tube just behind the mechanical shuttle. I believe if you take the shuttle cover off, you could inspect the shifter forks, detent springs, and shifter rods for problems, as well as the shifting collar and gear teeth. In the book it says the chamfer on the gear teeth and shift collar should not exceed a 1/4"radius. Any excessive end-play or wobbly gears from worn bearings could cause your problem also. As Tinkerer said, it could be gears worn out and require many new parts. Phil
Best way to split? I'm a newbie, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in here - the question is related. I just bought a 74 580B that has a leak similar to the one described in this thread. According to the previous owner, the tractor moved just fine prior to the leak, but while I've got it apart, I'm going to do a complete disassembly of the torque tube, cleaning and checking everything. My question is this - as far as replacing the gasket goes, it looks like it's much easier to split at the engine/bellhousing, pulling the engine forward and leaving the hoe and loader frame attached to the rear axle. However, does this make it harder to remove the torque tube after the engine is out of the way? The book says to remove the hoe and go at it from the rear, but that hoe is heavy and I'm not sure I want to do that if I don't have to. I'm new to Case - we had JD and ** on the farm I grew up on, but I've split them, so I think I know what I'm getting into. Dry place to work with concrete floor, decent tools, helping hands available - what more could you ask for?? OK - answering the obvious question - I'm going to use this baby to build an airstrip (lifelong dream), and my wife and kids have called me Papa Goose since I started flying 10 years ago.
OK, I goofed - I thought this thread was talking about a leak at the bellhousing - anyway, that's where my machine is leaking and that's why I'm taking it apart.
Same here.............But my cousin has this tractor. It"s been sitting under a pecan tree for years. He"s trying to get it started. It has a new battery and fuilds. It turns over but just won"t crank. Fuel seems to be getting thru..... Does this thing use a glow plug? How does it fire? Where is it? All I see is a SENDER UNIT? Can anyone help???
Papa Goose, It's easier to get the torque tube out with the engine already out. Just make sure you put the fuel tank back, if taken out, before you put the engine back in. Keep in mind that there are other places that can leak in that area, the starter gasket and the steering valve. The leak of course won't affect shuttle operation, as long as oil level is high enough. If you have any shuttle problems, it is a good idea to do some pressure checks before you tear the machine down. If you want some advice on what should be replaced in the torque tube, as preventative maintenance, let us know. Phil
Tom, The 580B engine is a direct injection engine, no glow plugs, maybe a manifold heater, but that's not needed where you are. A diesel uses the heat of compression to ignite the fuel. A diesel that has been sitting for a long time can have several problems. It sounds like the engine turns over with the starter okay(?). Loosen the injector lines at the injectors. Are you getting any fuel out the injector lines while cranking? Phil
Thanks for the input Phil. I'll take a closer look at where it's leaking before I start tearing things apart. I was wondering about the starter, since it's recently been replaced, but apparently, the leak drains the t-tube pretty much dry, and the starter appears to be too high to do that. Just to clarify - do you recommend splitting at the engine/belhousing and then dropping the t-tube? Or, if the leak is between the t-tube and trans housing, is it easier to split it there first? I'd really like to get a close look at the shuttle (35 years and 8k hrs = no spring chicken) - can I get the shuttle out the back of the t-tube with the tube in place? Seems like you have to remove a lot of stuff to drop the tube, but maybe that's easier if the engine is clear? PG
Papa, If you have to split the engine from the torque tube to replace the front gasket, I would do that first. Roll the engine on the front wheels and hoist, out of the way. Keep in mind that some gasket leaks are at the parting line between the oil pan and the engine block, and so can be fixed by removing the pan only. With the engine gone, remove the 2 rear studs that are screwed into blind holes at the back of the tank. The tank will then come out. Unbolt the steering column and hoist it up slightly. The torque tube has to come forward at least a foot, preferably more, to remove a lower gear, then the shuttle assembly. I'll post some pictures later. Phil
Phil, After closer inspection, the leak is definitely coming from between the torque tube and tranny, so I decided to drop the hoe and go at it from the back. I've got most everything cleared around the tranny and torque tube now, so as soon as I get the loader frame mounting bolts off the axle (and the cab/fender attachments), I should be ready to split. My plan is to block up the engine, loader frame, and cab, then support the front of the tranny with an engine hoist. Once the cases are separated, I should be able to roll the axle and hoist back out of the way. According to the book, I can easily get the shuttle out the back once the tranny is clear. I'm planning on disassembling it so I can replace all the seals (it's a Rockwell) - do you know if the A41000 kit is still available, or do you just go to your friendly neighborhood hydraulics store for those? After that, I'm going to pull the front cover so I can get a close look at the pump, pickup tube, and valve assm. It shouldn't be too bad a job with the rear end of the tractor off, but I'm going to do it all with the torque tube still attached (no leaks there, so why remove it?) - do I still have to pull the tank? What else do you recommend doing while I'm in there? Thanks for all your help. PG
Papa, As I recall, the large shuttle cover can be removed with the tank in place, but the pick-up tube has to be unbolted, then rebolted when re-installing. Very very difficult. If you plan to remove this cover, I would take the torque tube out the front with engine attached. Leave the tank in place, but remove the front tank studs by double nutting them. I believe the rear tank studs have to come out to, but I'm not positive about that. The steering column can be hoisted up 1"or so, with a small hoist attached to the top front of the cab. I'm not sure about the seal kit, but get all the seals from the Case dealer if you can. You might be able to get aftermarket, not sure. If you are going to reseal the shuttle assembly, then I would clean the screen, replace all valve body gaskets, replace the pick-up tube gasket, pump seals, and clean out the bottom of the torque tube. If you choose to remove your tank, either to remove the cover, or make engine/torque tube removal easier, it is covered in the "my 580B won't even move" thread. Phil
OK, here's the latest. I found the reason for the leak this morning - the four side bolts holding the tranny to the torque tube are all loose. Looks like the top and bottom bolts are still pretty tight, and the joint hadn't opened up, so I don't think there's any damage from misalignment. This certainly explains why the fluid was pouring out. I also pulled the shuttle and shift covers off, and everything looks perfect - no evidence of any problems at all. It's tempting to just tighten everything back up and run it, but I've got it down this far, so I'm at least going to pull the shuttle and replace all the gaskets and seals. Fact is, I've never actually seen this tractor move, because I bought it after the leak got so bad that the previous owner couldn't keep fluid in it long enough to use (hey, the price was right), but he said it drove fine before it started leaking, and so far, everything else he told me has turned out to be true, so I'm not really expecting to find any major problems. The shuttle valve body looks perfect - no leaks or looseness anywhere, so I'm really tempted to just leave it alone. I would like to take a look at the pickup screen - maybe I can snake my borescope in there once I get the shuttle out. If the screen isn't clogged up, I think I'll just leave the front cover on. Even though I've got the back end all apart, it really doesn't seem like that's improved the access to the front shuttle cover - looks like it would be easier to take that out by pulling the tank, which I could do after I get the rear end put back together. That way, I can test everything, check pressures, etc., before tearing anything else apart - who knows, maybe it will drive just fine once the leak is fixed. Does this make sense, or should I just tear it all apart while I'm at it? PG
If you don't pull the big cover off, you won't be able to clean the screen on the pump pick-up tube effectively, however, it may not need it. Also the 2 seals between the pump and the cover can't be replaced, however, they may not need it. The pump may be damaged from lack of oil, but it may be okay. A lot depends on how long the machine was run with no shuttle oil pressure. I tend to agree with your plan, inspect and do some preventative maintenance on the shuttle assembly for now. After all, we don't know if the clutch discs or bearings have been damaged from low oil pressure/low oil. I have added a pic with the shuttle assembly out, looking forward, you will see a pile of debris that was found resting just under the screen, and plugging it. In this case the machine was working good until it was driven on to a steep float deck. Hence the need to reach way up in the torque tube and wipe the bottom clean. So you should be able to see the screen from the rear, as I recall. Remember to note the orientation of the bottom gear when you remove it, before sliding the shuttle out. Keep track of your shims on the main shaft as you split the tractor, also one bolt on the rear shuttle cover has a different size head. You will have to remove the small cover to get the 2 top housing bolts. Phil
Well, this project is just full of surprises. I've been thinking all along I could just take out the 8 bolts holding the loader/hoe lower frame to the rear axle, remove the fender/cab attachment bolts, and roll the rear axle backward. Had everything ready to do that and then realized that the lower frame is only bolted on one side - the other side is all welded into one big frame that goes from one end of the tractor to the other, so that isn't going to work (I must have skipped class that day). Anyway, here's the new plan: disconnect the loader arms and cylinders, blocking them up in place. Remove the hydraulic lines running from the loader frame to the cooler, filter, etc. as required. Remove the hood and cowling over the instrument panel. Block up under the engine. Block up under the loader frame, but with rollers so it can move fore and aft. Remove the bolts holding the loader frame to the radiator frame. Now I should be able to move the loader frame and rear axle together back enough to split between the torque tube and the tranny. Not sure how far it has to go to release the splines on the driveshaft, so I'll probably end up taking off more bits and pieces. Good opportunity to drain all the old oil out of the hydraulic system (I'm trying to be positive). Clearly, it makes sense to drop the torque tube while I'm in this deep (I'm sure Phil would agree), so I figure I'll use my engine hoist to maneuver it back until it releases and then drop it down to clear the steering column. Once that's out I can do all the things Phil has suggested - hopefully that means just seals and gaskets, but I know it has been run without oil, so there may be more damage. I'll post the results. One question Phil - I didn't catch what do you meant by "note the orientation of the bottom gear when you remove it, before sliding the shuttle out" - is there a special way that goes in? Thanks again for all your great advice!! PG
I caught that myself PG. Phil will be back tomorrow and enlighten us. It amazes me how good he is with the B Case. It seems you've had to regroup and go back to Phil's approach of disassembly. He is the B Master on HEF. :notworthy
Papa, The gear in question is the lower rear counter-shaft gear which has to be installed with the large hub in. Just make a note of examining it when you remove it, just prior to sliding the shuttle assembly out of the torque tube. I don't know how your removal technique will work out Papa. I've never done it that way, not with an engine hoist. The main concern is alignment when reassembling the 2 halves, they are not very forgiving. One of the first difficult tasks is removal of the hydraulic pump inlet hose assembly and the 2 inlet pipes in the loader frames. Sometimes it's better to cut these hoses and install new. Phil
Was finally able to split the tractor between the torque tube and the tranny this morning. The hard part was getting the supports adjusted so that the torque tube and tranny didn't load each other - there's no easy way to tell other than to see how hard the two are to separate. I ditched the idea of the engine hoist and just put a rolling floor jack under the torque tube - that worked pretty well. Once I got everything aligned, the two halves slid apart pretty easily. I'm hoping this will be much easier during reassembly, since I'll be able to line them up more exactly before they mate. I ended up taking out the steering column and the tank, which will just barely fit down and under the loader frame with the steering column out. Then I was able to remove the valve body and front cover. The good news is that the pump is perfect - you can still see the tool marks on the housing, so I don't think the engine ran long enough to do any damage, or maybe there was still a little oil in the lines? The pickup tube has a good bit of crud on it, but not totally clogged. Now everything can get a good cleaning! I'm debating going any deeper - so far everything I've found looks pretty good, but this seems like a strategic time to change the rear main engine seal and the tranny input seals?? On the other hand, I wasn't planning on doing a restoration - I just want this thing to run well enough to dig out some tree stumps and level off my airstrip! So, maybe I'll stop here. I'm going to put in all new gaskets and seals, including a shuttle kit - seems like that should make a pretty significant improvement.
Papa, Do check the 3 sealing rings that seal the shuttle shaft to the torque tube housing. Sometimes the housing is worn where they ride. You will encounter them in the shuttle assembly itself also. They need to be 'hooked' together, placed in the bore, noting the gap in the 'hook'. Like an engine piston ring, they must exert pressure to seal, in this case. Like the engine rear main seal, the 2 transmission input seals, generally do not cause problems. However, the top transmission shaft sometimes has considerable end play as the tapered bearings wear, and I have adjusted this in the past. Input shaft seals can be replaced at this time. Phil
Phil, I'm looking at the A41000 kit, which I think has those sealing rings. If not, I was going to buy new ones, but I'll check the gap - any idea what it should be? I disassembled the shuttle yesterday - everything looks good - lots of material left on the clutch disks, no sign of burning or discoloration, bearings are all in excellent shape. The rubber seals are actually not horrible, although they're swelled and worn - not that I would ever consider reusing them, but I was pleased to find the shuttle pretty much in working condition. As I mentioned earlier, I've never seen this machine move under its own power, so I wasn't sure what I'd find - like, the torque tube full of scrap metal?!! PG
Here's the latest twist - I was getting ready to clean the old gasket off the torque tube/tranny interface and suddenly noticed that there wasn't an old gasket there!! Closer inspection revealed a few tiny torn up pieces stuck in the various holes and spaces on the two mating surfaces, and it looks like at least some of the crud in the bottom of the torque tube is actually ground up pieces of gasket. Has anyone ever seen a gasket self destruct this way? I never have. Honestly, there isn't a shred of it anywhere on the mating surfaces - only tiny bits in the holes and spaces. This certainly explains the leak!! But, the "chicken and egg" question is, did the gasket disintegrate because the bolts loosened up, or did the bolts loosen because the gasket went away??? I suppose it doesn't really matter - I can't see any damage to the mating surfaces, and the bolts were tight enough that the two cases never shifted enough to damage the shuttle, splines, bearings, etc., so I think I can just put on a new gasket and go. But, you can bet I'm going to be checking the tightness of the bolts on a regular basis! Also, I'm going to need to check the end play on the shaft - I guess there's no easy way to do that without putting it together, then will have to take it apart again if a change is required - seems like there ought to be an easier way. Don
Papa, I'm sorry I didn't mention to check shuttle shaft end play when you where taking it apart. You are really on the ball. Yes you will have to check this dimension on assembly. I just replaced a leaking torque tube/trans housing gasket on a 430 backhoe. The bolts were all loose, I don't know why the owner didn't check this but anyway the bottom half of the gasket was missing, just the odd bit here and there. A new gasket is not available, so I asked for a 580B gasket but they said it they thought it was different. Anyway, I used the Loctite 515 sealer they recommend. I believe there are 2 dowels and I think one is hollow(it can slide off the stud), so check that they are there. Re the steel sealing rings, look at the gap where they are hooked together, when installed. If when installed in the exact spot it normally runs in, the gap is closed, then the ring cannot exert any pressure to seal, because the hooks will not allow it to open any further. The percentage of gap left determines it's service life. Check all of these rings for side wear also, and remove every one of them carefully and check them in their respective bores. If you reuse them put them back the way they come out. Aluminum bores can be carefully polished with fine sandpaper, I use garnet paper not emery, and this does a good job to smooth the dirt scratches. I have a few notes on the Rockwell, I will get back to you with them.Phil
blee62, Did you get your transmission fixed so that it will stay in gear ? I finally repaired the transmission in my 680. It turns out it wasn't so much the worn gears that was causing mine to jump out of gear. It was caused by a broken snap ring on the main driveshaft. That allowed the gears to be out of alignment when it was in gear, especially under a load.The transmission had been worked on before by someone who didn't know much about what they were doing. I found that out when I found a second snap ring on the input shaft that had been expanded farther than it should have been. The result was a permanently oval shaped snap ring that was almost certain to fail also. I always replace snap rings that show even the slightest distortion after being removed.They also stripped the threads in one of the four bolt holes that hold the transmission against the shuttle adapter plate. Tomorrow I am going to try a slightly larger in diameter metric bolt in the stripped threads. If that doesn't work then I will remove the transmission again and drill and tap the adapter plate for a 5/8 inch bolt. Case used 9/16 inch bolts to hold it against the adapter plate.
Phil, I slid a hook ring seal into the torque tube bore, and there's a gap about the thickness of my fingernail. I can try to get a more accurate measurement if you think it's necessary, but I plan to put new seals in anyway - they're only $30. I'd be very happy to see your notes on the Rockwell (Rockford?) - I'm going to get started as soon as the dealer can get me an A41000 kit - hopefully just a day or two. I also noticed that two of the shims on the input shaft look are cupped slightly. I'm assuming that when the case bolts got loose the spacing opened up and allowed the shuttle to hammer a little on the shims - does that sound reasonable? Should I replace the shims? Had another idea - I'm going to try to estimate the gap by measuring both sides with the cases apart, maybe with a dial indicator or digital caliper. I'll also have to estimate the thickness of the compressed gasket, but I figure I can get within the 0.045" tolerance. Even if I don't, it just means I have to split the cases again, which I would have had to do anyway. I'll let you know how that works out. One other question - I'm looking at the input shaft to the gearbox and wondering if I really want to replace the seals. On the one hand, it will never be easier than now. On the other hand, they aren't leaking and they have a pretty easy life - oil on both sides and no pressure, so they should last forever. They're about $35 to replace with the gasket. Any thoughts? PG
Papa, Yes as long as there is some gap left, the ring will apply pressure. Just a common sense thing. I have seen torque tube bores with grooves worn in them from these 3 rings. I have seen the shims you refer to, cupped as you describe. I agree with your logic as to the cause. As long as they are still working as designed...should not need replacing. You seem pretty sharp mechanically, I'm having a good feeling about your project. I have not seen an issue with the transfer of oil from one compartment to the other in the 580CK or the 580BCK. Some notes on the Rockwell soon, been busy and trying to get caught up Phil
Finished rebuilding the shuttle yesterday and popped it back in. Gaskets arrived today, so I bolted everything up and checked the gap - it was about .040" before torquing the bolts, so I figured that was close enough. Coated the gasket with RTV and torqued everything down. Nice to have the thing off the blocks - I'm used to working on sports cars, where nothing is particularly heavy, so this hunk of iron makes me nervous - way too much gravity here. Now I'm really anxious to see how this tractor moves, so I'm going to try to get the pump and valve done by this weekend. The oil that came out wasn't too bad, just a bit murky, but I'm still going to try to get as much out as possible - figured I'd suck on the cooler lines with my shop vac - how easily does this stuff burn? Maybe I should find out before trying this (I've heard of people blowing up shop vacs trying to suck up gasoline). I've also been trying to come up with a better solution for the hydraulic system than flushing with new $$$ oil. I drained as much as possible from the reservoir in the loader frame (about 10 gallons), which looks very much like chocolate milk, but I'm guessing there's still a few gallons left in the hoses and cylinders - seems like a huge job to disconnect all that stuff so it can be drained, not to mention all the small leaks that would inevitably result. So, I've been doing experiments on the old oil - I've found that if you heat it to just below boiling for an hour or two, it gets a lot darker and clearer. I realize that sounds like a contradiction in terms, but when the water evaporates the "milkiness" goes away and it looks a lot like motor oil. So, my plan is to run this "dewatered" oil through a filter and then put it back in and run the machine long enough to mix it with whatever is left. Drain, dewater/filter, and pour it back in, then repeat until what comes out looks like what went in. At that point, I should have most of the water out of the system and I will do a more complete drain and refill with fresh new oil. Any thoughts?
Papa, You really get work done fast. Regarding the shuttle oil change, when the front torque tube drain plug is removed, it wouldn't hurt to check the torque converter for a drain plug. I don't think there is one on a B model but just in case. There is actually a drain on the filter housing too. Re the hydraulic system milky oil, there were some recent posts on the problem. ATCOEQUIP can advise you on that too. I'm afraid my attempts to fix that problem have not been very successful. My first thought on heating oil to remove moisture is that there is a temperature you don't want to exceed. Do make sure both tank vents, on the left and right side hydraulic tanks, are clear and not letting rain water in. Phil
Papa Goose; Read seagull369's thread (Question About Fluids). The thread was started on 9-24-2009. All the info and advice you need is there pertaining to your contaminated oil.
Thanks Tinkerer - I'll check that out. Phil, I'm really motivated to see this thing go, but time is really tight right now - hopefully I can get it going next week during Fall Break. PG
Papa, I'm swamped here, I have so many things to do in the next few weeks. When filling the hydraulic tanks on a B there is a vent plug on the left frame at the front. You will have to let the trapped air out there when filling. Good luck, Phil
Tinkerer, OK, you've convinced me - your flushing method sounds like the right way to get rid of the contaminated oil. I was hesitant about disconnecting everything (afraid I'm going to get a lot of small leaks), but I can't think of any better way to get all the gunk out of the cylinders. I was thinking I might try to reduce the amount of new oil required for flushing by disconnecting the line out of the pump and hooking it up to my air compressor. That way, I can open one line at a time and blow out the crud without using new oil. I was also thinking that if I disconnected one of the pins, it might be possible to cycle a cylinder with compressed air - that would be a nice way to clean them out. Any idea how much pressure it would take to move an unloaded piston? After clearing everything possible with air, I plan to reconnect the pump, put in fresh oil, and then flush again (which shouldn't take a whole lot of oil). Seems like that ought to do the trick. How did you clean out your reservoir tanks? PG
Papa Goose; You can try using air but I don't think it will flush out all the contaminated oil. Plus you then have a system full of air with a certain amount of frothy oil. That seems to me to be a real harmfull condition to subject your hydraulic pump to. You won't lose very much new oil if you take your time and watch the disconnected hoses for the first clean oil to come out. I did remove the dipper arm pin so that I could extend it with new oil,without disturbing the boom cylinder. My Case 680 Has an oil tank right in front of the windshield. It has a round access plate about 8 inches in diameter that I can remove. The purpose of it to get access to the hydraulic filter that is in it. With the filter out it is very easy to clean the tank. And believe me the tank had more than contaminated oil in it!
Unfortunately, I don't think cleaning the 580B tanks is possible, and as I recall the drain plugs are not quite at the bottom of the tanks either. Phil
It has been a long time since I ran a Case 580 of any model but,I was pretty sure the 580B didn't have a tank. I was explaining why I was able to clean mine. To clean a confined area,many times I have used used a wet/dry shop vacuum. I reduce the size of the shop vacuum hose by duct taping either a PVC pipe or if it needs to be flexible,a length of rubber hose (heater hose) to the big hose on the vac. Perhaps after draining the reservoir on the 580B a person could put diesel fuel in it and then vacuum that out. I don't think there would be a fire hazard but I would certainly do it outside and not in a building.
Quote: Tinkerer No comments from me on repairing a B, never worked on one. But I've seen using a shop vac to clean oil and fuel tanks mentioned several times on the forum. One slight twist I would add to using one is making a "suck bucket". Take an empty 5 gal pail with lid in place. Drill a hole in the bucket opposite the pouring spout that will allow inserting clear vinyl hose snugly in hole. Now you can place the vac hose over the pour spout and use the vinyl hose to vac confined spaces with all the oily liquid going into the suck bucket instead of your shop vac.
ATCOEQUIP; The bucket idea is excellent. I hadn't thought of vacuuming through one. It would sure keep the shop vac from getting all fouled up and stinky!
That it does, brother, that it does. I came up with this idea changing HEUI injectors in Powerstroke engines. Even if you drain the injector oil and fuel galleys, when you pull the injector, you still drop some fuel and motor oil down injector tube into the cylinders, not good for engine restart. I could insert a small diameter vinyl tube into the hole at the bottom of injector tubes and use the suck bucket to evacuate the oil and fuel on top of the cylinders without making a black mess out of the shop vac. I've used it for many projects since. Just thought I'd pass it on.
580c Hi there, I'm a new member making my first 3 posts ...I am looking for someone to help me with my Diff Lock I'm a new operator of a 580 c and can seem to get this unlocked and get rolling seems like the e-brake is on or something...I feel a bit useless i think it must be a floor pedal?
ATCOEQUIP, I agree - the bucket idea is a winner. I use something similar for bleeding hydraulic brakes on cars - a jar with two lines, one connected to a hand operated vacuum pump. Wish I had read your post before I sucked all the differential goo into my shop vac! On the other hand, my idea for using air pressure to flush the hydraulic system was only a partial success. I was able to get a lot of the old oil out, but only some of the cylinders would move at 100 psi, so I wasn't able to get all of them cleared. I do think it helped with cleaning the "tank" (which of course is the loader frame), by agitating it. My shop manual suggested flushing the tank with diesel fuel, so I put a gallon or two in the tank and then gave it a good mix with the air before draining. Hopefully that got most of the crud. Now that I've done it, I'm not sure I'd recommend compressed air, since you end up spending at least 10x as much labor as the cost of the oil, but if anyone else wants to try it, the trick is to disconnect the high pressure line (from the pump) at the base of the frame and then clamp a short length of 1 1/4 rubber tubing on the fitting, which you can then adapt to an airline fitting by reducing down from a hose barb (which will probably cost you as much as the oil you saved, unless you already have the fittings). Last thing I did today was refill the tank with fresh oil, so tomorrow I hope to fire up the engine and complete the flushing procedure with the remaining cylinders. I'll also get a chance to test the shuttle - hopefully there will be a good report on that front!! PG
Sorry you got it late. I've used "the suck bucket" on so many jobs, it sure keeps the "differential goo" out of the shop vac. I hope everything works well with your repairs.
Hey gang, it works!! I fired her up this morning and sure enough, the old girl still has what it takes - she will even start off in fourth gear at idle - not bad for a 35 year old. As for the hydraulic system, I did end up doing the power flush with the engine running - taking the line off one end of a cylinder while pressuring the other end, then switching and doing it again. That seemed to get a lot of the old gunk out the system. I have yet to finish all the cylinders in the hoe, but the loader is done. ATCOEQUIP, you didn't tell me it would turn my shop into a skating rink - even with plastic hoses clamped on the open lines, I still managed to spray hyd fluid on pretty much every square inch of the floor. I think I'm going to take it outside to finish the hoe - some of those fittings are up pretty high and I'd probably end up of coating the walls to match the floor. Got any slick ways (analogous to your suck bucket) to avoid making such a mess? Not that I plan to do this again any time soon. Anyway, I'm really, really pleased that it moves - after reading so many threads about these old 580B's having problems moving, I was worried about that. I'm indebted to you guys for all your great advice!! PG
On the fluid spray, at least your classic garage queen wasn't close by.
Wait a minute...it wasn't I that suggested you take lines loose and pressurize them to flush crud. So you have the loader oil cleaned, now you need to do the hoe. Exactly what position is the hoe and outriggers at present?
Ooops! Sorry Atcoequip, it was Tinkerer who posted the pressure flush procedure. I was just kidding around anyway - it isn't anyone's fault but mine that I made a mess. Still, I'd rather clean up a mess than rebuild the hydraulic pump! Actually the hardest cylinder to flush was the dipper - I had to pull the bottom pin and retract it to get at the bottom connection. This job was a lot like going to the dentist - not much fun, but good to do for the long term. Mathman, no I didn't have a garage queen in range, but I did manage to nail my shop manual - I guess it's baptized now. PG
OK, the hydraulic system is flushed and working fine now. Next I need to look at the brakes. Phil, on a post you made a couple of weeks ago (on a "580B brakes" thread) you said: "It's a good idea to reseal both sides, including the carrier o-rings and the 2 differential lock seals." Does this mean that there are two seals on the diff lock side? I only see one on the exploded view (#20) - total of two if you do both sides. Just want to be sure I've got everything when I order the parts.
Papa, I don't believe you can replace the 2 diff lock shaft seals without going deeper into differential disassembly, now that I think about it. I don't remember them being prone to leakage. I have added a picture of the right side gear to show the location anyway. Just 2 o-rings and 2 housing seals are needed. I would be more concerned with any end play or up and down movement of the carrier side gears, indicating worn tapered bearings or worn/broken thrust washers. The older CK's and B's used a fiber thrust washer between the side gears and the carrier. If not updated, it can eventually break and fall out leaving the carrier loose as a goose. Soon the pinion fails as the crown is not where it should be. Even the newer C, D,and E with steel thrust washers, will get a loose carrier eventually, especially if roaded a lot. Phil
OK, I'll skip the inner shaft seals. Checked the play today - there is just a tiny amount of end play in the right side - maybe a thousandth or two? Left side seems tight. Are the thrust washers hard to replace? Another question - I was planning on getting brake lining kits and doing the riveting myself - any trick to this? I've done aircraft (solid) rivets, with a pneumatic hammer and bucking bar - how are these set? Unrelated issue - I'm just finishing up rebuilding the three electronic instruments (fuel, ammeter, and H2O temp). If anyone needs any help doing this, I'll be glad to answer questions. Looks like a common failure on the fuel and H2O is to lose the ground (no pun intended) connection, which comes through the case. Notice that the U bracket on these instruments has a spring clip on the side - this is part of the ground path. The internal ground connection has to go through a brass plate that presses against the inside of the case. Unfortunately, this can corrode and break that connection, and the only way to fix that is to open up the case (more on this later). The two long screws coming out the back are of course the other two connections, one to 12 volts and the other to the sensor, which is a resistor to ground. These screws make connections internally to ring terminals, which also have a way of getting corroded and lose their connections. Fortunately, the screws are brass, so they will take solder if you get them hot enough. Clean a small area with a sharp knife or dremel so the solder has good metal to bond with. Of course, all this assumes you're inside the instrument, which requires that you peel back the lip on the front cover. This can be done with a small jewelers screwdriver. Leave the last two nuts on the brass screws while you're doing this so the insides don't bounce around. If all that sounds like too much trouble, I guess you can get a new one for maybe $80? PG
Papa, Thrust washer replacement involves taking the top cover off the differential and removing the 'bull' gears, after pulling the axles. I can't think of the proper name of that gear. Quite easy to do. Replacing those thrust washers should not require resetting the preload, but only if the new ones were the same thickness as the original, and the original shim packs were in place. The shims under the covers set the preload on the 2 tapered bearings that hold the carrier, same as a wheel bearing on a truck. I think your probably best to leave it as is, if movement is barely noticeable. I have in the past removed shims, but that was with the diff cover off, so the backlash could be checked. There is a certain risk to this as the preload on the carrier cannot be accurately set without the pinion removed, and the tooth contact pattern is now changed. In summary, taking your diff cover off for an inspection is probably the best preventative maintenance you can do on a B, and it allows you to work comfortably on your brake assemblies, with the seat and floor boards removed. I have riveted these brake linings on myself, at considerable savings, however a proper tool is required to roll to rivet head. I think that's great that you have posted your in-depth findings on gauge restoration. Phil
I started a new thread called "Rebuilding the 580B instrument gauges" that gives more details and adds a few pictures.
Nice new thread Papa Goose, I'm hoping more info will be added to it, such as cab to engine grounding and sensor resistances. Not that there is an inherent problem with grounding on the B, as the engine is bolted solid to the frame, but if you love a B that doesn't matter . I forgot to mention about protecting the bearing housing seal from shaft damage when installing the housing on the left side. There is a very sharp ledge on the left side gear. Some use a plastic sleeve, I use a smooth plastic section of a coke bottle. One knowledgeable Case mechanic here(Melben) used electrical tape wound round the shaft. Phil
OK, here's a challenging question for you Phil - I've got a Trans Oil Temp light, but no sensor - the wires were cut and I can't find any evidence of the probe (actually a switch to ground, I believe). So, my first question is, where was the sensor supposed to be? There are several plugs in the power valve, so maybe one of those was originally a temp sensor? Second question (this is the hard one) - at what temp was the switch supposed to close? I'm thinking I can wire in a temp-controlled switch rather than paying $28 for a new Case sensor.
Papa, The converter oil temp sender is located on top of the converter pressure regulator valve, and mounted in a vertical position. I believe the thread size is 3/8"NPT. It may still be there. The original wire colour is black. I am at a loss to find a reference to the temperature at which point this sender becomes 'true'. I would be tempted to pay the $28 if you want it working as original. There is lots of info out there on maximum recommended oil temperature in automatic transmissions, a similar application. Of course there is a time element, so how Case engineering would spec it I do not know. Phil
Thanks Phil, that's really helpful. There's a pipe plug in the pressure regulator that looked suspiciously un-original, and your graphic confirms that this is where the temp sensor is supposed to be. I know I should probably just go get a new sensor, but I've got an IC temp transducer already mounted in a 3/8" pipe plug, so I'm going to put that in so I can monitor the actual temps for a while. I don't have any reason to believe they're going to be high, but I'd like to know what's "normal" for my machine.
New guy with 580b power problem Ok I'm brand new to this so bare with me. I took my 580b to the mechanic because it was not powering up hills. Gas pedal to the floor and engine sounded OK. Hydrolic fluid dripping out starter. Mechanic said engine rebuild. He rebuilt the engine and I got screwed still low power and still dripping out starter. It sounds like a 1/2 diagnosis or bad one. Anyway I've learned alot and told it's tranny issues probably front seal. Before I find a new mechanic can anyone tell me the best and worst case senarios for the issues it could be. It has shuttle shift and no hi or low range just straight gears I guessed you'd say. Any help would be appreciated I'm not a mechanic but I understand basic engine tranny talk.
Danny, It sounds like you have a torque converter drive model, in simple terms you cannot stall this engine by driving into something immovable and not releasing the clutch. Oil dripping out the starter is the 'starter to torque tube' gasket, or the seal in the starter itself. These machines have a wet flywheel housing so the starter has to be sealed or it will fail, sooner or later. There is a 'My 580B won't even move' thread here and I suggest you read it also, from beginning to end. The B was a sluggish machine especially when cold and any hill you climb with it ,off road, will probably have to be in first gear. Does your shuttle pressure dash gauge work? Phil
thanks and a couple more things Phil, Thanks for the information. The thing that worries me is I had a JD 400 and you could put the bucket down and scrape the dirt up like crazy. I can hardly scoop a bucket of loose dirt and we could barely get the backhoe up the trailer backwards. Can you comment a little further on that and I'll check out the thread you mentioned. Thanks for your time.:usa
one more thing I'll check the pressure guage in a day or two. It seems to have trouble in first gear which I call a creeper gear scooping dirt or going a small hills.
Danny, A 'B' should spin it's wheels in 1st gear, on dry ground, while pushing into a bank of dirt. Loose dirt, no problem, it should fill the bucket. Backing up on to a float...some of those ramps are pretty steep, but yes, rev it up enough and it should do it, although it does make them work hard. I think I would still take a 'B' over any other backhoe from that time period. Compared to a later C model though, there is a noticeable difference in the way they climb hills. A 'B' model was known for not wanting to move at first when cold, like at freezing temp and below. Once moving they were okay. Some will park them on a grade or just lift the rear wheels off the ground and get them spinning. Another thread here to look at is: My first backhoe-580B As a start, take a look at the shuttle oil level, the dipstick is in a cover, just in front of the trans gearshift cover. It has a big hex head on it. You have probably already checked this. Pull one of the torque tube's 2 drain plugs, the rear one(1"socket), located directly underneath the shuttle dipstick, at the very bottom of the casting. Take a small sample of oil and see if it has any aluminum grindings in it. I really want to know if your dash gauge works and if so is it in the green. Phil
Hi people! Lots of great info here. I found a 580B close to where I live, and of course it has the "wont move" problem. I tried to PM papa goose, but I don't think I have enough posts yet. I just want to know a little more about your machine if possible, so I can maybe compare it to what I might be buying. Can you try to PM me? Thanks!
Matt, I see you posted over on Papa's thread too. Regarding buying a 580B with shuttle problems(torque converter drive), I think the buyer should generally be prepared for some major work. One should be mechanically inclined and have a good hoist. A hoist on wheels is best, I suppose an automotive engine puller may work, not sure about that. Sometimes it's a simple fix, but one should be prepared for the worst(splitting the tractor). I think there are 2 old threads here, My 580B won't even move, and My first backhoe 580BCK. These two big threads have lots of pictures and info in them. A 580CK or BCK that won't move could present a buying opportunity, if the price is right, but keep in mind that used parts are hard to find. That is, the parts you need. New parts are still available from Case, so far. As I recall a good working dash gauge will tell you if the pump is working. If at idle the gauge goes up in the green, after shifting to forward or reverse, the problem is generally in the shuttle assembly itself. With the transmission in gear, you shouldn't hear a whine, like shafts moving, or the problem is farther back. Some 580B's have a big 'R' or a 'T' stamped on the right side of the serial # plate, on the steering column. A 'T' could mean a Twin Disc shuttle assembly. These are hard to work on, and require a press, unlike the Rockwell unit. In general, I think one should consider buying a newer Case, like the C or D model, unless you want the challenge of the older design. Phil