Hello all. Got an old Case 580b, been workin on it for a while. Resealed all the cylinders on the backhoe. Anyway, its doing something odd I think, and I'm very new to heavy equipment I might add, its the first piece I've owned and I had little experience otherwise other than digging with a little Kubota. When I push the clutch pedal down, the Trans Oil pressure gauge drops pretty rapidly. It will go all the way down, and it will return fairly quickly when I let off. It will do this regardless of what gear I have it in, or in neutral, or whether it is in forward, reverse, or neutral. If I push the pedal, it goes down. When I let off, it comes back. It does move. I haven't driven it a lot yet, I only pulled it out of the barn and put it back in tonight. Some background to this machine: I bought it last summer from a guy in Ohio (I'm in Michigan). It drove onto the trailer under it's own power. (Nearly tipped it taking it off because there is no in between with this darn clutch, it's all go or no regardless of how carefully and slowly you let the pedal out, even at lowest engine speed). I drove it around the yard and did a few things but the backhoe cylinders leaked so bad I wanted to fix that before I did much. So I parked it in the barn and didn't get to doing any of them until almost winter last year. I got 4 done last year and this year I didn't get to it until almost winter again here, I completed all of the cylinders and then figured I ought to check all the fluids since I'd not done that yet. Well the trans / shuttle was a little low but looked nice and clean & clear, so I added some of the Traveller Universal Trans/Hydraulic from TSC. It said specifically on the pail it could replace the Case Hy-Tran. (It appeared to have a regular hydraulic oil type in it at this time, not red). The differential level was fine. I fired it up then while I was doing the last cylinders to move things around and make it easier. After completing the last cylinders this year, including the major pain in the arse extenda cylinder, I checked the levels again. I ran it probably around 1 to 2 hours total during the time I was doing the cylinders off and on. The trans oil looked like choco milk. The diff was still fine, although the level was lower. Odd. Don't know where all that moisture came from. There is no radiator / trans cooler I can see anywhere. So only explanation was it was either there and I never knew it and it ran ok and moved and when I checked it this year it had separated back out, or silly amounts of condensation? *Side note: Do I remember whether the pedal/gauge dropped out last year/when I got it? No I don't remember if it did or not.* So I drained the trans, filled it back up with about 3 gallons of fresh Traveller, let it run for 10/15 minutes and drained it again. New stuff looked like darn choco milk still! I also changed the hydraulic filter up by the rad in front before I put the new stuff in for a flush. Drained it again and hoped I got enough out. Added Case Hy-Tran and after running for a while it's somewhere between a light & dark pink. Certainly not as fresh and straight out of the bucket but doesn't look light pink either. It still moves and it was at this point I rolled it out of the barn and back in for the first move of this year. And depressing the clutch pedal still causes the gauge to drop, and will come back when I let go. The clutch has always been quite lurchy as noted above, like there is no nice slow engagement possible, it goes from nothing to 100% engaged no matter how slowly I let the pedal out in both forward and reverse. I'm going to try to upload a video I took of me pressing the pedal in/out. It also makes a high pitched sound which seems slightly lessened with the hy-tran in there.
video uploaded
Brian, I don’t see anything wrong with the operation of your machine. It is a shuttle shift and the clutch peddle will act as a clutch pressure dump and a brake at the same time. Think of it like this...the shuttle is in essence a big clutch pack similar to what is found in an automatic transmission. Fluid pressure holds the friction discs and steel plates together when the clutch peddle is released. This pressure and “holding” is what causes the shuttle to move the drive gears in the trans. When you press the clutch peddle down you dump the pressure and allow the shuttle to release. Therefore the energy from the torque converter is not passed through that shuttle into the drive gears. One way to control the “hit” when you release the peddle is to reduce your engine rpm before releasing the clutch peddle. Make sure the machine idles at the proper rpm and don’t have the hand throttle holding you at anything higher than about 800 rpm. You can change direction with a shuttle without depressing the clutch as well. Simply come to a complete stop using the brake peddles and move your direction lever to forward or reverse. If the rpms are not too high there will be no major jump from the machine. Good luck and enjoy that B! Doug
I didn't know... most of that. So thanks! Haha. I had an idea of how it worked but now it makes a lot more sense. So basically, it's actually working like it's supposed to you are saying, and the pressure is supposed to drop when the clutch is pressed. Makes sense, I just didn't know that's how it actually was supposed to work. And I also never knew whether I needed to use the clutch pedal or not. Basically if I'm at a stop I don't necessarily. The tach is broke so I don't know what it's actually idling at. I could try to compare my diesel truck's sound to the tractor, thinking of it in my head I believe it's right around that, my truck idles at about 700. Is there a way to adjust the clutch to respond more gently so I can creep in and out of the barn better? I've got like literally all of 2 inches of either side and it's like trying to very carefully guide a bull into a china shop every time only I can't stop it from going any slower than full speed in 1st gear at idle. I've driven manual vehicles since my first car 20 years ago. I can't get this machine's clutch to engage slowly like normal, its either go, or no. Also, is it supposed to make that sound do you know? Thanks for the info Doug btw, I don't have any experience with this stuff and not really anyone that knows to tell me either.
Brian, You need to throttle down to the lowest level possible before releasing the clutch to move. Unlike a dry clutch that you can "ride" to control movement, this is either on or off. The power comes through the shuttle from the torque converter so the RPM's are the only way to control the hit without messing with the pressures in the torque tube. Without my service manual in front of me I don't even know if that would be a wise or possible thing to d. Also, when you select a gear, select a higher gear than 1st. 1st will be the most responsive and allow you to move more quickly from a stop. If you were to select 2nd or 3rd gear, the machine will start much more slowly from a stop. In the long run the higher gears will give you more top speed potential but not as responsive on the get go from a dead stop. Release the clutch and use the hand throttle in conjunction with the brake pedals on the right side of the machine to control movement. With practice you will be able to move the machine in very small increments and make it smooth as silk. The noise you are hearing when you push and release the clutch can be considered normal. The shuttle should not spin or move until you release the clutch and it receives its fluid pressure. So with the peddle depressed you are dumping the fluid back into the torque tube and bypassing the shuttle. Therefore no movement and the engine doesn't labor. Release the clutch and the fluid travels through the shuttle and causes it to spin. Since your machine is newer there is also a "neutral" in your directional selector that will allow you to dump the fluid back into the torque tube rather than have it cycle through the shuttle. If you ever release the clutch while in neutral and hear a chatter from the filter-cooler lines that travel up to the radiator, it could be a sign that you are drawing air into the line from bad seals at the pressure pump or that your pickup tube screen is clogged/blocked. The pressure pump is driven by the torque converter and is located in the torque tube. You need to remove plates on top of the tube to access those items so until you are sure there is a problem there, just keep on trucking. Lastly, jump onto eBay or some other site (service manual sharing is here on HEF) and get yourself the service, parts, and operators manuals. Read through them all and you will have a great idea of the how, and why the machine does what it does. This forum is still the first place I check as there are some of the greatest minds around in regard to these old machines. Doug
Welcome to HEF Brian ! Here is a link to the service manual for your 580B. ---> https://www.minnpar.com/manuals5.as...LS&SSSFName=CASE 580CK MODEL B SERVICE MANUAL
Once again, thank you very much guys. I've been reading and watching vids on the 580B for over a month now and still hadn't figured that out Doug. That makes sense because the transmissions are different from a regular vehicle's manual trans with the flex plate / clutch generally to my knowledge. So it really is all go or no, but that's how it SUPPOSED to be! OK! Now I got it and know it's not busted or out of adjustment or anything. Good to know and boy do I feel better knowing my machine isn't half busted or something! So that's why I can't ever get the clutch to engage slowly, because you literally can't. I'll have to try starting out in high gear and see if that's easier, thanks for all the info. And thanks for that manual Tinkerer! Wow that's a lot of good info. I have the spiral bound operators manuals and I had read those cover to cover but it didn't really say any of the things that Doug mentioned that really helped clarify it's function and how to use the clutch etc. Now it all makes sense. At least that little portion of running the machine that is. Yeah, I've been a lurker for quite some time and this seems to be the place where guys really know these old Case and will share that knowledge Now if it will stop raining maybe I can finally go out there and get something done with it! Quick aside: My injector pump is leaking diesel a little bit, more at higher rpm I think. It seems to be coming from the backside where I can't see it well. There is what looks like two little plates on either side with two flathead screws in them. That part is definitely getting wet with fuel, but I'm not sure if that's where it's coming from since I can't really see there. Is that a fairly common leak point? I'd hate to have to pull the whole thing off just to potentially tighten those back screws. If I was gonna pull it I'd want to do a full new gasket kit but I'd rather hopefully be able to get it to stop without having to take it off.
the small plates with the two flat head screws are the timing covers. they have a rubber gasket that may be the leak , but i’d check the throttle shaft close as i bet it’s the shaft leaking. small o ring seals the shaft. changing it may be possible without removing the entire pump. would be tricky i think tho. have to take the top cover off and remove the clip that holds the two halves together. the pump on my old 580ck was leaking a far bit externally and i just let it drip for a while but it started leaking into the oil so i disassembled and re sealed mine myself. with some much appreciated help from the pump guy from this forum. he knows inj pumps like no one else i know of and seems willing to help the less knowledgeable like myself lol. there are some parts of the disassembly that can go bad fast. special tools to avoid damage and breaking of special bolts and such. i would not do much on that pump without a book and lots of research as well as knowing how to properly remove the pump. u need to align the timing marks inside the small cover u suspect may be leaking and tie the throttle wide open before u take the pump off. otherwise u would need to find tdc #1 and then turn the engine to the required *btdc to then set the pump timing to the engine. i recently rebuilt my engine and had to set the pump to engine timing and it can take a few attempts to get it right. the pump tear down and assembly is fairly tricky at times and not something someone should do if they don’t have some good mechanical ability and lots of patients as well as a super clean work area. can’t be too clean when dealing with the pump internals. major damage can occur from mistakes made in all stages of a pump rebuild. i successfully did mine and i’m not a mechanic so u may well be a bake to as well. but if ur unsure i’d recommend letting a pro do pump work. there a real good one on this site. i posted a bit of my pump overhaul on the forum somewhere. i can tryn find the thread if u think u may be digging into yours. cheers. best of luck. lots of knowledgeable case guys on this site. several have been of great help to me when i was stuck or unsure about something.
thread was called “ roosa master dbg questions”. not sure how to attach a link tho.