So I'm helping my dad with this old POS case that he bought. Aside from having to send the pump to thepumpguy...most of the cylinders are leaking pretty bad. This is the early model with the 2 piece pistons. I bought a seal kit for the dipper cylinder from brokentractor.com. The brand of the kit is "Bulldog" which i've read is pretty reputable. I opened the kit and noticed that the center ring was not included. This is the ring/"center bearing" that the v-shaped seals seat into. Shouldn't that center piece included with the kit? I've seen other kits that do include it...and some that don't. Wondering if it's a big deal or not.
There may be different seal kits that are similar. Could you use the missing ring from your old seals? If not maybe you need to see if there is another kit with the seal you're missing. Maybe just the missing ring could be sent.
I can reuse the existing center ring (assuming it's in good shape). I'm just not sure if that's ok to do. I'd hate to go to all the trouble of changing all the seals only to leave one old part in the cylinder.
Rebuilt all the cylinders on my C, all the kits I used(including several Bulldogs) came with new center rings, maybe you received kits for 1 piece pistons. Call Broken Tractor to verify, they sent me the wrong parts once and overnighted correct parts on their dime. Did you use the # stamped into the gland when ordered?
Thanks. I did not use the number on the gland. I just ordered the kit for the dipper cylinder and stabilizers (same kit). It looks like the kid has everything except for that center ring. I called Bulldog and they told me that some of their kids include the ring and some do not. I called Broken Tractor and they're email me a diagram of the piston so I can point out the piece that's missing.
Looking at the gland #'s from my machine, Dipper G32079, stabs G34471, not the same. Your machine may differ but checking for stamped # in gland leaves nothing to chance. IMO. In retrospect do remember couple of kits were the same for different cylinders.
Thanks. Unfortunately the machine is located at our cabin which is 3 hours away. Makes it hard to order parts for the thing. I should have taken down the gland numbers on all of the cylinders...
When I did my 580 ck I got the kits from IH dealer here. Mine had 2 different types mixed in it and they said that was normal. I had to take each cylinder apart and get only the kit for that one then go to the next one. PITA but finally got it done.
I appreciate all of the replies. I called broken tractor and they stated that their kits do not include that "center bearing" and they do not stock the part. Unfortunately it doesn't look like anyone sells that part as a standalone item. However, I found a place called HW parts store and they do sell the complete kit with the center bearing. I asked if broken tractor will waive the restocking fee. I'm hoping they will since this doesn't appear to be a complete kit. I was told by the people at Bulldog that you "don't necessarily" need to change that center bearing but if I'm going to the trouble of resealing the cylinder, I'd rather spend the extra $10 and replace everything that's not made out of metal. So, if anyone is in a similar situation, check out HW parts store. that appears to be one of the few places that has the kits. I also reached out to Fox Kits. They do sell seal kits for 2-piece cast pistons but not sure about the 580c
What shape is the original center ring in and what does it do? If it doesn't actually seal anything it might be perfectly fine to reuse it. Kind of like the split ring guides on Cat cylinders. They just prevent the piston from contacting the inside of the cylinder barrel.
It's been a while since my cylinder rebuilds after I adopted my machine. Got first kit for the dipper from Case dealer $$$, didn't know any better. Once realized could get stuff online ordered 2 bulldogs from somewhere maybe BT, then discovered HW parts store and ordered all the rest from there, seemed to be quality kits for damn near cheap, still no leaks since '17.
I'm not sure what kind of condition it's in. I won't know until I take apart the cylinder and at that point, I'd rather have a replacement on hand rather than learn that it needs to be replaced. I'm not sure if it actually seals anything. I believe it just holds the actual seals in place. They're "V" shaped and fit into a slot on either side of the center ring. Since I already have the bulldog kit on hand I'll give it a shot but going forward I think I'm going to buy the complete kit from HW Parts Store. I will say that the folks at Broken Tractor and Bulldog were very responsive, informative, and great to work with. Broken Tractor offered to take back the seal kits without charging me a restocking fee. Here are some photos:
The centre ring on a two piece piston is only a spacer with the V shape on each side & is made of steel, hence the reason it is not included in the kit. It is reused as are all the other made of steel parts in the cylinder. Even the genuine kits from CNH never supplied the spacer. Sometimes when you pull them apart the spacer is cracked - in that instance you would replace it - with a new part from CNH, which likely is no longer available. If so, then you would have one made.
Picture #3 of the seal kit clearly shows new composite center ring included. Which part are you talking about?
Picture #3 if a screenshot I took from the HW Parts Store website. I was just including it for reference in response to Welder Dave. HW parts store DOES include the center ring with their kits. ...the bulldog kit from Broken Tractor does not. That's why I'm not sure if I should return the bulldog kit and buy the one at HW Parts store, which is only $15 more. From what I'm reading, it seems like I only need to replace the center ring if it is broken or damaged.
I know what you're looking at frank, that question was aimed at the other guy who insists center rings were/are never supplied with kits for two piece pistons and are made of steel. Just wondered which part he was talking about. If your composite center ring is in good shape and all the other stacked seals are the same go ahead and rebuild your cylinder, should be OK. TIP: Make sure inside of cylinder is clean and free of rust so you don't tear new seals up or further contaminate hyd. system. Make sure to lube the crap out of everything upon reassembly.
Yes, the aftermarket seal kit from HW Parts store has a spacer made from composite material. The title of the thread is regarding a Case 580C two piece piston. From the factory, Case two piece pistons use a metal spacer between the packings. Case never supplied the spacer in a seal kit. Bulldog obviously have copied the Case seal kit in precisely the same way. Folk have called me alot of names here over the last 15yrs - but never "the other guy" - LOL!
Seems as though when I was doing my rebuilds actually bought 3 kits from the dealer, 1 for dipper, 2 for stabilizers all three the same CNH1543263C1. Still had old seals in a bin on the shelf in CNH bags, all 3 CNH kits also contained new composite center bearing rings, old worn ones in the bags I saved. Never say never.
So check the condition of the original rings. If they aren't cracked should be fine to reuse them.
"Catch the mouse George"
???
@stinky64 Well, blow me down with a feather! I humbly apologise. When a machine is 50yrs old, it is highly likely the cylinder seals have been replaced, possibly a number of times. I'm not sure when CNH started supplying the composite spacers. I should have taken the time to look at the CNH partsbook to confirm. I guess I should have said, in the days I worked for Case, (30yrs ago ) they never supplied the spacer in the seal kit. The metal spacers were cracked from time to time & using the generic composite material spacers became the simplest solution.
I appreciate all of the replies. I've decided to return the bulldog kit and buy the seal kits from HW Parts store. They cost about $15 more. From the few cylinders that I've already taken apart, the center ring is made out of some sort of plastic, not metal. However this machine is almost 50 years old so who knows what's been changed over the years. The backhoe is kept at our cabin, which is 3 hours away from the house and pretty much in the middle of nowhere. That's one of the reasons that I'd rather buy a kit with new center ring. This dipper cylinder looks like it'll be a nightmare to change the seal on. I'd hate to get it apart, only to realize that the center ring is worn or broken and I need to order a new kit and have to wait a few weeks before I can get the chance to go back to the cabin.
You can disassemble on machine just make sure to take a couple of 8ft. stepladders with you. That's how I did mine when first bought at the back of a corn field where it sat for several years just so I could get the machine movable and home. Biggest concern should probably be supporting bucket and dipper so you don't get squished in the process.
Was it easy to pull the piston out of the cylinder? When I did the loader lift cylinder I had to pull it out with my truck. I watch the YouTube video where they used the backhoe to dig a hole. Then rested the bucket in the hole so that the boom was level with the ground. Seemed like a good idea ...
I did one like that -- once. It is too easy to drop stuff in the hole. And even easier to fall into the hole. Unless you have enough plywood to cover the hole real good. Which I did happen to have.
My dipper cylinder seals were so deteriorated as soon as I hit the controls buttermilk blew out all over, so when I took it apart it pulled right out, your results may differ. Don't know if you'll get enough travel out of cylinder to remove pin from cylinder with boom stretched out straight (I'll check when I go down to shop today and report back later) I've also used the hydraulics to "bump" the rod/piston out on a couple different machines, just need to protect internals from damage by wrapping in old blanket or something and securing so it can't fly out. Just to do it slowly and be careful. I'm sure to catch a ration of ***** for that little tip, so do what you feel is right. Another tip once you get the cylinder almost fully extended (don't want to push all the way out to prevent the piston/cylinder assy. putting undue pressure against the gland)is to disconnect/loosen the hyd. lines on that cylinder to eliminate suction.
I have tried pulling them out but if you’re off to any degree, as soon as the piston gets near the threads, they bind up and can cause damage to the threads. I find it safer to bump them out with the hydraulics until the piston gets even with the outlet, then breaking that fitting loose and then take out.
Stretched the old girl out and ya need to keep boom about 45 degrees or so, so after pin removal you can retract rod enough to pivot cylinder and get apart. Like Harley mentioned, try to keep to keep the shaft/piston straight when coming out to prevent metal to metal contact.
Years of experience on those cylinders and "The Other Guy" has it right, the center spacer was not included and unless you see a reason why it cannot be reused, reuse it. Aftermarket kits vary in parts supplied. Over the years the spacers went from steel to a composite material but all worked well.
Read post #18, look up CNH p/n. Enough already.