My last post was on 5/26/2015 "Fuel Injection for Dummies". Long story short, rebuilt head and bought the proper parts for the fuel distributor pump. On the morning of December 4th, after I started the 580C, it seemed to have problems running the hydraulics, it seemed to be under load and would stall out easily. I ran it for at least 10 minutes and ran it back to the shop because things weren't getting any better. First thing I did was remove the valve cover to check valve lash (lesson learned from last post). Both push rods on the second cylinder from the radiator were severely bent and off of the rocker arm. I straightened them with a hammer and block to wood.....a bit under pressure here, lashed the valves, reassembled everything, and it ran great the rest of the day. Yesterday afternoon, December 5th, when I started it, it was significantly surging at idle. I increased the engine speed until the engine smooth out for at least a couple of minutes and returned it to idle. It still was surging so I shut it down, popped the valve cover, and found bent push rods again. I paid a little more attention this time and found that one the of valves was extremely sticky.....it was hard to depress and took over 10 seconds to come back up after being depressed. I removed the valve spring and seal and found the valve guide collar was broke. I chucked the valve stem up in a drill motor, ran the valve up and down while oiling it to free it up a bit. I reassembled everything but left out the valve seal. I am hoping I can limp along for a week or two before tearing down the engine and rebuilding the head again. Possible Problems: USER ERROR? I have an external heater that runs between the water pump lines and heat the engine up that way because my block heater is broken. I am Either injection scared because of what happened last time so I will crank the engine over for 5 to 30 seconds before it runs. I idle it for 5 to 15 minutes before I use it. If there is a better way to start this engine, please let me know.....ordered block heater and plan on using that and the external heater. I am not sure if spinning this engine over for a long time will hurt it or not. MACHINE SHOP: The machine shop had problems rebuilding the head and took 2 months to do it. They tried to install sleeves in the old valve guides, but the old valve guides would crack so they had to press out the old ones and install all new valve guides. I am also concerned whether or not a valve stem seal should be used. You can see the valve seal sitting by the cracked valve guide. Question 1: Do these heads require valve seals or does the valve need the oil for lubrication? If so, should I remove the valve seals? Both? or just exhaust? Question 2: It has not been started since the head rebuild this summer in under 40* temps. What is the best starting procedure for this engine? I am scared of Either! The head and valves on cylinder 2 had pitting from excessive use of either.....my fault! When and how if should I use it? Question 3: How on earth did I not hydro lock that cylinder? Did it leak by the rings that much or did shut it down in time. It did run fine after I beat the push rods straight the first time and I did not run it very long the second time.
If the engine heater is working properly ether shouldn't be needed. If the engine is cold only enough ether to make it fire should be used If it only has one cylinder firing enough to keep the engine running stop the ether use, it will eventually get the others firing. If the engine has glow plugs then the use of them along w/ ether is a deadly combo for the engine. Mike
Wrong valve guides were installed and or they weren't reamed properly. Sleeving valve guides and breaking them, really, that is absurd. It would be in your best interests to find a different machine shop. Large capitol letters in a post are considered yelling on internet forums.
Thanks....didn't know about large caps. I reassembled the valve after I ran it up and down with a drill motor in the guide. I did not install the valve seal. I have had quite a bit of machine work done at this place, but primarily gas engines. It seemed to me a strange problem also. I checked the valves and guides after they cut the seats and surfaced the head and they all seemed good to me. I am still not sure if there should be valve seals especially on the exhaust. I did lift the seals off all of the exhaust valves but did not remove them. I carefully ran the tractor today for several hours but i feel a bit unsettled with the top of the valve guide broke. I am hopeing that i will not have excessive valve stem deflection until i can tear down the engine and fix it properly. I avoid the use of ether. I was just a little worried about lengthy roll over times until the engine fires. I don't know if that is an issue, either way, i plug the tractor in sometimes for hours before i start it. Thanks for the replies
bj; I don't understand your question #3 about hydro-locking. That can only occur if coolant got into a cylinder and prevented the piston from going up on the compression stroke. In regards to the valve stem seals. The valve guides on many different engines can be machined to have them installed. I had a set put on a 327 Chevy engine once many years ago when I used to drag race. They don't completely seal the oil from getting to the valve guides if they are installed correctly. They are designed to precisely control the amount of oil going to the valve stems and guides. In hind sight I think they are a waste of money to put them on new valve guides. I have gone through hundreds of cans of ether through the years. If it is used wisely it is not going to harm your engine, even over a long period of time. If your block heater is working you shouldn't need any other coolant heater such as a tank style one. Cranking the engine over for thirty seconds or more before allowing it start will do [/U]no[/U]harm to it. But it will take a toll on the starting motor eventually. I wouldn't do it myself.
What I meant by hydro locking is that I was running the tractor for at least 10 minutes while either one or both push rods were severely bent and not contacting the rocker arms. I am a newbie at diesel repair and had the mindset that if the intake and exhaust valves are not opening, but the injector is still squirting fuel into the cylinder, it seems to me that it has to go somewhere. I know it would require alot of time to get a cup or so of fuel in the cylinder and I can see a little going past the rings, but if a diesel is continued to run without the valves opening, wouldn't that eventually hydro lock the cylinder? Seen that with a bad head gasket before, but this is just a theory to me......I don't have anyone else to ask detailed questions with except the experienced members of the forum. I found this tractor sitting in a farmers field and offered him $4300 for it. Most everything works, but most everything is broke. I spent two days working on it and had to drive about 20 miles home with it. Mice ate all the wiring and everything else so it has been a constant project. I planned on using it for a short period of time, but it is tough and really useful. I just bought a factory block heater because the other one didn't work and it had the external one on it. If it is plugged in for a while, it will fire right up. It has no engine side covers so in the winter I put blankets around it and plug in the heater. I had an oil dipstick heater, but it burned up. I don't mind replacing a starter, I just don't want to mess up the engine again. I think I understand how and when to use the ether now and really appreciate everyone's comments.
Yes, too much fuel in a a cylinder "when it's not running" will cause hydro lock, and you may not to be able to start, removing injector or spark plug will clear this problem, this usually happens when a machine has been "tipped" over on it's side...etc.
Hookedondiesel is right on the money about hydro-locking. I saw a Caterpillar 623 scraper go over on its side and engine oil hydro-locked a cylinder. The dumbass mechanic that was there when it was up-righted went ahead and tried to start it without pulling the injectors and flushing out the oil. Results -- one bent connecting rod and a complete engine tear-down. The fact that you ran the engine for about 10 minutes with neither valve opening could very well could cause the cylinder to accumulate fuel. But I don't think it would hydro-lock. It most likely would break a piston. You say that the machine shop resurfaced the head. Maybe it wasn't the first time that the head has been resurfaced. I would be suspicious of valves hitting pistons. Or the valve springs are being compressed so much that they are causing the push rods to bend. With the valve cover off rotate the engine and check if the valve springs are being compressed so much that they are bottoming out and causing the push-rods to bend. If that checks out OK, then the head should be removed before running the engine anymore and determine what is wrong.
I had to figure this out quickly and at least move the tractor out of the construction area or use it until I can remove the head and have it properly fixed. I assembled the engine as I described above and went to the machine shop that did the head job. The surfacing was very light and I requested it to make sure the surface was clean and straight. The valves sit almost flat with the head and the pistons have a very deep dish to them. For a diesel, the compression is a little low, I believe it it 16:1. I did check for valve spring bind and that is not an issue. I have never owned a diesel before so I have had to learn a few things especially that are unique to the case 207. I have ran the tractor for over 8 hours now and haven't had any issues with the valves. I have pulled the valve cover off many times to check for valve binding. I had a water problem around my building foundation and had to use my tractor or rent one. I gambled and finished the job with my tractor and didn't have any issues with it. My question now is focused on the valve seat or a problem at the machine shop installing the new guides. Either way, I will do a compression test on all cylinders and pull the head off and fix the valve guide. I have never "freed up" a sticky valve before without some other major issue. I find it strange that the valve still moves up and down freely and doesn't seem to be gulled up or bent. It is not a risk worth living with so I will take care of it soon. I really appreciate the comments and can understand some of the unusual things that can happen with a diesel vs a gasoline engine.
Sounds like you are very experienced in repairing engines bj. You have done everything that can be done to figure out what the valve problem is. From what I am reading though I would still run as fast as I could from that machine shop that did the the valve work. All new valve guides should have been installed. The fact they damaged one by trying to sleeve it is just something that I would not tolerate. That is one fatal mistake that they told you about. Hmmmmmm. I am guessing they installed the valve stem seals to cover up more shoddy work. Keep us posted when you find out what it took to get that head back to a usable condition.
Just thinking out loud here but my guess is when they pressed/drove in the new guides they cracked the top of that one and it just took a bit of time to break off.
Thanks Tinkerer, I wanted to clarify that they wanted to just sleeve the guides, but the old ones cracked so they had to press out all the old ones and install exact replacements. I saw most of the work and wanted to check valve clearance myself. They did all the assembly work because I didn't have the time and it wasn't much more in cost. What concerns me is that I never saw the broken piece under the valve seal when I took everything apart. But, I was cold, dark, and raining a little, so I may have missed it. Most of this stuff is common seance, attention to detail, and precise measurements. As I stated earlier, this is my first diesel, so I do not want to miss something because of my lack of experience. I am going to jump on this in the spring and fix a few other things on it while doing so. I really like the tractor and believe it is worth restoring it. It is challenging because it is in such poor physical condition and factory parts are extremely expensive. Thanks again for the detailed comments.