I am not experienced with diesel engines but I was an auto tech for many years. This 207 engine runs rough and will not rev over about 1600 or 1700 rpm. I know I have one bad injector because I can break the line loose at the injector and the rough running stops but also does not drop rpm as drastic as the others. I had the pump off to paint the engine and I think I have it timed properly according to the manual. This backhoe has set for about three years during a restore process. I believe this was probably like that when I bought this tractor. It was in a fire and the previous owner said he dug a hole to burn construction material and it rolled into the pit. He said he panicked and could not get the unit out. So any chance it could be a problem with the pump? Or just bad injectors? And I have set the valve clearance.
Okay so you have a single cylinder misfire. Troubleshooting it is pretty much the same as a gasser. Fuel, air, or fire. Is the cylinder mechanically sound (compression/leakage)on a diesel that answers air and fire. if that's good, pretty much fuel delivery is the only thing left. Not sure what part of TX you're in but find a diesel fuel shop and have them test the injectors. L a st set of case/cummins injectors I did it was actually cheaper to buy new Bosch units than have them rebuilt. If the injectors are suspect try swapping 2 of them. If the problem cylinder doesn't change call pumpguysc on here. He knows a thing or two and a guy that can overhaul if need be.
I found some aftermarket injectors for about $40 that I may get. I have some fuel cleaner in the system but it has not done much good yet.I think compression is fine because it spins over pretty even unlike some engines I have seen with a low cylinder that will speed the engine up when it hits that cylinder. I was just wondering if I need to pull the pump and rebuild it.
Like I said try swapping the injectors from one cylinder to another and see if the problem moves. That seems like the fastest way to test for the symptoms you have.
And like he said, if the bad cylinder stays in the same place (doesn't move with the injector) then check the compression, 10x more likely than a bad pump.
I am new to HEF I just picked up a 580c 79 maybe 80 with similar problem was wondering what you found to be your low power and what should I have for compression
wow, six years later and i still don't know how wrong i was? Your compression should be within 10% from the highest to the lowest cylinder, something around 350-400psi, but that's harder to get exact than within ten percent. But what have you done already? and what's it doing?
Delmer, did that other feller from '14 ever respond if he got that issue sorted? I'm curious about them $40 dollar injectors...Friend of mine wants to go on the cheap for his machine..I wonder if you can trust the pop off setting on generic chinese injectors???
If u don’t have a means to test them(pop tester) you’ll have to poke & hope.. You’ll have to call a fuel shop & ask them what they charge to pop test them.. Some charge money & others don’t.. I haven’t had any problems with them when my customers buy them..& I install them..BUT.. I have a pop tester & test them before they go in..& they have a good warranty, just incase.. The KUBOTA & FORD INJECTORS ARE JUNK THO.. If ur gonna pull/replace the injectors... NOW would be a good time to do a compression test.. Harbor Freight has a Master Compression Tester that comes w the gauge & adaptor for that engine. They also sell a cheaper kit that tests compression thru the glow plug holes, that engine DOES NOT have glow plugs so u can’t use that kit.. As far as compression #’s go, your looking for anything OVER 300 psi AND within 10% of each other.. if u have a bad cyl. and the engine starts and runs.. ur gonna find that cyl. is gonna read 200 psi. IDK why but that always seems to be the #.. U could/should set/ check the valves before a compression test.. The wrong setting on the valves could b the cause of low compression.!! OR WAIT until after the test if u find a low cyl.. Good luck w your project..
You guys have got it as far as fuel problems, one thing I always recommend in these situations is I have see n many 188-207s with popped out pushrods, enough to make it one of the first things I check, as previously stated a valve adjustment check is in order anyway.
This is a great site full of knowledgeable people, thanks to all of you. I have been a mechanic for over 25 years mostly in the automotive industry but can work on most everything with good info. I picked up this 580c with a extend hoe with no front counter weight in front about a month ago ,I have many questions about machine but need to get it running right first. The previous owner went the fuel route with injectors I continued with that ,was reading threads from HEF and was going to pull injector pump until pump guy said injector pump won't pick on one cylinder only. The last thing I did was to put injectors on fuel line outside of motor so I could see fuel spray and I did cylinder 3 and 4 same spray. Cylinder 4 is my problem I did a halfass compression test did not have correct adapter but came up with 300 psi. The last thing I did last weekend was to take off valve cover to check push rods and valve adjustment. Not knowing proper adjustment I did a comparison to other cylinders. Number 4 cyl. ex. valve was .018 in..013 or so . I adjusted #4 cyl. the same as #2 don't remember what that was can't remember **** LOL will have to recheck but did not change running condition. Before I pull head I wanted a little insight on what I will be looking for, I did see thread on corrode valves. Any help would be great. Need a direction to continue. HELP PLEASE THANKS.
From the 188 diesel service manual --> If it isn't a 188, let me know.
I am not sure how to tell I thought 188 was in older machines. I not sure of my year but was told 79 80 thinking 207 engine any info would be appreciated. Educating myself as I go Thanks.
Serial number please. Then we will know. Provided the original engine is in it.
not sure where to find serial number I see plate on back hoe can't seem to see one on the machine
MANUALS,MANUALS,MANUALS...If you're able to have this piece of yella iron in your yard you should download or purchase manuals, relatively cheap online for parts and service manuals,to make your life more easy.....and I'm sure Tinkerer has one in his NASA database
Maaaybe ! Click on the image to enlarge it.
Looked around machine today no plate found only on ROPS and on back hoe. is there another way to determine year. Also I ran machine for a little while enough to warm exhaust manifold cylinder 1,2,3 warm 4 not warm at all any ideas with that info.
If u swapped the injectors already & the problem remains on #4.. U have a piston/ring problem on #4. Stop half-assing around & go buy a HF compression tester.. it’s around 100. bucks w their coupon.. Or RENT 1 from Advanced auto parts store. Once u get a good reading.. Remove the adapter and squirt some oil down the inj. hole & test again.. if it jumps about 100 lbs, that tells you the rings aren’t sealing.. Good luck
pumpguy, your earlier reply to chinese injectors with the poke and hope, kinda eluded me....but now I'm sitting here LMAO....is that perhaps a euphemism for something else????
Lol.. ya just gotta stick it in the hole & hope for the best.. lol
Update on compression cylinders 1&2 350 psi cylinders 3&4 320 to 340 psi added oil to cylinder 3 compression jumped 100+ psi same for cylinder 4. Still not sure if 188 or 207 is there any way to tell difference other than VIN also do these engines have sleeves or not.
Yes, they do have sleeves.
Did u ever post the # off the inj pump name plate yet.,? Don’t scrape it.!! Get some gasket/ paint remover in a spray can.. sometimes “ez off” oven cleaner works .. I can tell ya what engine & model u have by that.. By those compression #’s it’ll start but be stubborn.. anything I’ve 300 is ok.. Now how about those pump #’..!!
BD0431AJ3206 2100 3138127 A-151113 Thanks for responding pump guy here are the numbers. 300 psi is ok and not a problem in your opinion. I should look at pump issue maybe ,not rings or valves.
As tight as the clearances and bowl volume on those engines is only a very small amount of oil could be added without changing the actual compression ratio by removing chamber volume making the oil test invalid, any oil induced through the injector hole will go right into the combustion area of the piston and not reach the rings till it is turned over enough to throw it around in the cylinder, I personally do not see how an accurate diagnosis could be made that way. You are talking about an engine that will not start cold if the valves are ground out of the valve face protrusion spec
melben thanks for input so if I have at least 300 psi in each cylinder before adding oil is that enough to run and is not my #4 dead cylinder
Yes it has a definite lope if that means skip ,no blow- by after warm and yes exhaust is cool after warm-up. Not sure which route to take now was after injector pump first then rings or valves need a little direction. Thanks
There’s no such animal as a 3206. According to the customer # it’s a 3205.. Engine is a 207 & that pump fits a 580c with a power shuttle.. Hope that helps alittle..
If you have a valve leakage you should be able to hear that as a definite hiss back through the intake or out the exhaust
I don't hear any hiss as far as I can tell. I believe I read in a thread the pump guy said injection pump usually does not pick on a single cylinder is that accurate? I would like to have an idea of what I'm looking for before tearing head off or do you guys recommend more diag. before I tear in. Thx
I'm still waiting to hear what the symptoms are? 350-320 psi is not great compression, but it's even enough. #4 doesn't get the exhaust manifold warm.
Have u tried swapping injectors, #4 into #1 to see if the problem followed the injector.? The pump has 1 discharge port.. for all 4 ports.. it push’s the same amount of fuel to each cylinder. Therefore it can’t pick a single cyl. to pump less/more fuel to..
I did swap injectors and it did not follow injector #4 is the problem cylinder. engine starts and runs sounds ok except for running on three cylinders, it will rev up slow any hydraulic movement brings engine down would stall if I let it.Also after running up to temp #4 cylinder still cool to touch????
Put #4 cylinder at exactly top dead center on the compression stroke. Recheck the valve-lash on it. Remove the fuel injector and apply a lot of air pressure through the hole. A rubber tipped blowgun works good. You may hear air escaping out of one of the manifolds. If you don't, remove the oil filler and listen for air hissing in the crankcase. You may even hear it coming out of the crankcase vent tube.
Thx for the heads up sometimes working on your own stuff you can't see the trees thru the forest. Will do that this weekend thanks to you all will update till fixed.
I did put air in #4 cylinder, also backed valves off to make sure they were closed completely. Heard air in crank case, thinking rings maybe hole in piston anyone have any other thoughts or experiences to shed some light on this before I tear in. Also where is best place to order all needed parts? Thanks
You interpreted the air noise correctly ! The most knowledgeable Case Parts man I know is Dale Wiess. He closed his Case dealership, but is still selling NOS, used and aftermarket parts. http://www.e-backhoeparts.com/
Thanks Tinkerer for info on parts ,any input on broken rings, worn cylinder, hole in piston just asking. I will post when I find problem.
I could only speculate what is causing the loss of compression. You may see as soon as the head comes off. Or when you start removing piston assemblies. As melben posted earlier it could be valve leakage. Have a competent re-builder do the head. It may need new valve seats. Do you have, or need the service manual ?
I do not have a manual where is the best place to get a manual? Also I still don't have the serial # of this machine and are all 207 engines the same when getting parts except maybe rings any info is much appreciated,thanks
Here is a link to the manual. You will need a .pdf reader to use it. Adobe is a good one. So is Sumatra PDF. Both have free versions. https://cdn.minnpar.com/partbooks/CASE (CNH) MANUALS/CNH (CASE) LOADER BACKHOE MANUALS/BACKHOE (CASE) 580 SERIES PARTS MANUALS/CASE 580CK MODEL C SERVICE MANUAL/Case 580CK Series C Service Manual.pdf