I have a 71 case 580 with d188. When I bought it it would start and seemed like it was going to be fine with a little tlc. I drove it around my property a few times then it died.thought it possibly ran out of fuel even though I could see fuel in tank. After adding some fuel ,I pulled line at injector pump and fuel flow seemed to low. I bypassed stock ff with inline cheap ff. I have brand new battery,rebuilt starter,and good cables for power and ground hooked directly to starter as well as a hd jump pack hooked directly to starter. Most of the time when I try to start it, it seems to crank too slow and just puffs a little white smoke from exhaust. If I mess around enough it will sometimes start for 30 seconds at the longest and engine sounds noisier than it did before. trying to figure out the best route for diagnosis on this. not scared to rebuild the engine if I have to.Any advice from experience would be greatly appreciated. thx in advance
it did seem to crank slow before I couldn't keep it running
Does it have coolant in the radiator? oil in the engine? what does the oil look like? any foam or condensation on the dipstick? If all that is good, then we'll hope for now that the internals of the engine are good, and it's got two problems at the same time. Not at all unusual for an old tractor. Probably crud in the tank plugging something up between the tank and the filter. And a bad connection somewhere between the battery and the starter. Make up some test leads with an alligator clip on one end and see what the voltage is at the starter when cranking, then check each side positive and negative, then narrow it down from there.
check fuel retun line from injector pump to storage thank, needs to have a small flow back to fuel tank, also check the adapter fitting at the injector pump were the return line connects why would anyone pull the injector pump with out knowing what they doing,, timing, timing, timing.. hope you meant to say lift pump GOOD LUCK
He said he pulled the line at the injection pump. I would clean the connections to the battery cables on both ends and especially the ground to the frame. These are notoriously finicky about needing a pretty full tank to get primed if you run out. I saw fuel in the tank, is not good enough. There seems to need to be enough fuel in the tank to have the fuel coming out of the return line or you will have a hard time getting it going. Preferably fill it right up. You NEED to replace the filters in the original Fuel filter. NOT bypass it with some cheap pos. It would be a good idea to drain the sediment bowl on the fueltank. Then, you need to bleed the air out of BOTH fuel filters and I like to bleed the line up to the pump. Make sure there are no air bubbles coming out. Then, if you have run it out of fuel, You need to bleed the injectors by Loosening the pressure fittings at the injectors and then turning the engine over in 20-30 second intervals until fuel comes out. starting procedure in case you are not familiar 1) Give it full throttle, (Down on the throttle lever) 2) Turn key for no more than 20 seconds at a time. If it is puffing white smoke you know there is at least fuel getting through the injectors. Hopefully at this point it will run. If it still starts and runs for only 20-30 seconds remove the return line from the top of the fuel pump that goes to the tank and see if it keeps running. If it does you most likely will need the pump rebuilt soon.
Delmer:All fluids have been checked and are good. fuel flow was good with test filter.I replaced and/or checked complete starting system plus an hd jump pack hooked directly to starter. I am familiar with voltage drop tests Jim:I will check that. only pulled fuel supply line to check for fuel at pump Eric:thx for the info about full tank. starting system is new wired directly to starter plus jump pack on starter. PLan on replacing original filters or upgrade. cheap 1 was for test purposes.it will not crank for 20-30 seconds
Looks like got basics covered. Would check to see if hydraulics is dragging engine down during cranking. Also would change engine oil filter split old one and look for metal
It should crank for 20 seconds easy. I'd try switching the battery with one you know is good, if it still cranks slow, what's the cranking voltage at the starter and at the battery? If they're equally low, then the starter is dragging. Rebuilt doesn't mean much if junk parts were used.
Delmer: I know. Battery is brand new plus a jump pack that will start a dead big block by itself.I drove 40 miles to the most reputable starter rebuild shop around and spent $150 on all new internals.I will take voltage drop test results and report back. How are the injectors on these things? wondering if pop pressure is too low which makes it spray fuel too early or constant drip.
If it was running then just stopped injectors probably are not the issue. Maybe take a video and post it. We who are familiar with how they sound and start might see or hear something
it ran before but always cranked slow which is why I restored starting system. will do...thx guys
I would try a putting a new or rebuilt starter in it. There is no reason a 188 with very many hours on it should crank slowly. Unless that motor spins quickly you are doomed to starting issues. IMHO !
Is there any possibility that one of the high pressure quick couplers to the hoe are disconnected or partially so the pump has to pump against high pressure. That causes major slow cranking issues always!
I replaced the entire starting system. did you read the previous comments?
wouldn't that cause a leak at said connection? It was running and all hydraulics working.all cylinders leak a bit except the 1 I rebuilt. I have considered this and am trying to figure out a way to rule this out. disconnecting pump from engine doesn't look practical for an easy test.
I had a few minutes for it today,so I pulled oil filter to check for metal/debri indicating internal problem. to my suprise the oil filter was almost empty with no sign of contamination. Not sure why it would not be full since it's at the bottom of the system.Also drained oil to check for same thing.looked good besides 2 or 3 drips of water when I first pulled plug. oil was not milky after running it for a while
I did cut filter in half to check
To isolate at least the backhoe section, you can unplug the 2 connectors going to the hoe and connect them together. It is possible for the connectors to not be fully seated and not leak. Doesn't seem possible but, I have seen it.
ANK YOU. I have considered removing back hoe until I have the rest of tractor and loadeer in decent working order. when I looked for the line described in manual,I didn't see quick connects. has screw in styleTH
voltage drop at batt and starter are the same, 9.5 after 10 seconds of cranking
So there's only four possibilities I see with what you've said so far. 1. Weak starter. The fact that it is new, rebuilt, blessed by Case itself is irrelevant to whether it is good or not. 2. Weak battery. same. 3. Hydraulic, belt, or transmission drag on the engine. 4. Internal engine drag. No metal debris in the filter suggests the engine is fine, water and empty oil filter is suspicious. You can turn the engine by hand to see the drag on the engine internally, but the hydraulic pump will usually turn fine slowly, so that won't help. Could remove the coupler to the hydraulic pump to try that, and remove/loosen belt to try that. Given those are the only possibilities I see, swapping the battery is the easiest, trying a new starter is second easiest and most likely. Then other drag issues. The engine quitting is a mostly unrelated fuel problem in my guess. I'd look for a mahle/iskra/letrika gear reduction starter, or a cheaper import gear reduction starter if you can't find a mahle.
Yes, I did read all of your posts, John. But when certain components are not mentioned specifically I tend to question what was replaced. Sorry for my ignorance.
do you have any info on where to get those starter? I asked the starter place about it and they said $400 plus shipping which is why I decided to have them rebuild it.I don't mind spending the money just trying to figure out what all needs to be done here before I start dropping loads of cash into it...thx again
no problem. just said that because I mentioned it in first post on thread and several others...thank you for trying to help
Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?
well. I gave it a small shot starting fluid and it fired up,ran great for 10 minutes or so until I shut it off. Had good power,operated all hydraulics. when I tried to start it after that it cranked slow and would not restart. does anyone have a link to the gear reduction starter?
yes
Good, I was going to offer you a download to mine.
I paid like $60 for an online download a couple weeks ago. wish I had real book but thank you very much for offering
I searched case 580ck starter and the first result is an amazon/rare electric for $180, that says DD for direct drive, but the pic is obviously an offset gear reduction starter. You can double check dbelectric for their specs. I couldn't find anything in the Letrika catalog, only alternators for the 580ck so you might be stuck with chinese.
that's why I haven't ordered it yet, never know what you're going to get. been searching for quite a while today trying to make sure I'm getting the right one. sometimes they use generic pics
You have a 9.5 volt drop from the battery to the starter? or do you mean your voltage across the battery terminals is 9.5 volts when cranking? Big difference. If it is the latter your battery is weak. Replace that before wasting anymore time.
it's 9.5 at both while cranking meaning there is no voltage drop through cables. case says min of 9
Make sure you have a ground strap from the machine frame to the starter mount flange. I have seen them removed or left unhooked numerous times.
On my 580se, the cause of slow cranking turned out to be worn brushes in the starter motor. Once I cleaned up the armature with a bit of fine sand paper, cleaned the grooves between the contacts, freed up the brushes so that they moved up/down ..... the starter spun the engine much better . That lasted about 6 months then the starter degraded to the point where it wouldnt move the engine at all. So, I the ordered a new set of brushes and soldered them in and that made the biggest improvement of all. Its fairly easy to remove the starter and open the end to inspect the brushes. Its not so easy to solder in new brushes if you dont have the mini-torch and right solder etc, but you can buy a new starter. This may be the culprit , it was for me .
it has a ground cable from battery directly to starter like I mentioned
all of that stuff was just replaced at starter rebuild shop
Sounds like several issues: 1. slow cranking due to starter and/or wiring, battery 2. Fuel starvation or air in fuel system Is the Fuel petcock on tank fully open? Are you 200% sure there is no air anywhere in the fuel path? Go back as far to the tank as you can, open each connection, ensure a good flow of fuel and no air, make sure all high pressure connections ‘spit’ not just seep fuel. Make a list of everything that has changed since it was last running and question all your assumptions about what’s working, double check everything and if possible verify thru a test each item in the above list. Isolate and remove variables in your test process, for example hook up your jumper pack directly to the starter and a nearby ground bolt, any difference in crank speed ?
I have done everything you mentioned twice as stated in my previous comments. just put new ac delco 1150 ,700cca battery in today and still cranks slow. ran fine for 10 minutes yesterday until I shut it off so I'm pretty confident in my fuel system bleeding. diesels need to crank faster than this to start good
Can you turn the motor by pushing or pulling on a fan blade ? I'm thinking it may not be a starter problem. More like something binding to prevent a decent speed when the starter is engaged. Perhaps the hydraulic system is putting a load on the starter when cranking. When no other problem is found, I would uncouple the hydraulic pump from the crankshaft and then determine if that is where the problem is. I know you said that isn't practical, but you may be glad you did if find that the splines on the pump are near failure. That spline is a common failure on all tractors with crankshaft driven pumps.
it slips the belt when I turn fan(another issue that needs addressed(belt too long) but I wouldn't expect to be able to turn this motor over by hand. I'm think ing you are right about disconnecting hyd sys just to verify. with it disconnected I should be able to get a tool on crank to feel it....thx
It’s good to have the special 1/2” socket tor rotating the engine, you could then feel if the engine is unusually tight or has some resistance besides the compression bumps. If it ran for 10 minutes and didn’t die on its own but you shut it off, then I’d agree with you that the fuel system is at least functional. If you put your good , fully charged jumper pack directly on the starter and it cranks in a weak way and too slowly to start, then there is a very good chance that the starter is the problem in spite of the fact that it was rebuilt with new internals. We are talking here about electricity and humans, these are often the source of errors. All’s it takes is one bad connection or dirty solder joint on your starter’s 4 brush leads or other internal connections (that were just redone) and it’s going to be weak and under powered. You have to somehow verify that your starter is in fact as good as you think it is. Can you get the rebuilder to test it or buy a cheap one online that can be returned, these will work well enough to do a test and compare to your rebuilt one.
I didn't mean to rotate it by hand. That is dangerous to do unless there is absolutely no doubt that the fuel shut off is fully engaged on a cable operated shut-off. I have to mention that because there are amateurs reading these threads that don't know that. Just try rock it back and forth. Pushing or pulling on the fan belt sometimes increases the tension so that you can rock the crankshaft. I encourage you to split the pump coupler if for no other than reason-to inspect the splines in it.
I agree and am looking for another 1
I recently got the this one via Amazon, seems pretty good $20, 3 day delivery, USA made. Ohio Diesel Parts Engine Barring/Rotating Tool for 5.9L/6.7L Cummins B/C Series
Will that work on a Case 188D ? He could remove the starter and use a bar to turn it.
You’re right, this socket won’t work on the Case g188d engine, Cummins only.
if I can't figure out a safe way to turn crank from front I can always use a pry bar on flywheel just I do on cummins
My money is on a bad starter. Buy one of the little Denso gear reduction ones. They are amazing. I had a V12 that I was chasing slow cranking with, which was worse when hot. I tried everything including have a supposedly really good rebuild shop fix it. Put in one of the Nippendenso starters and the thing cranked fast and fired nearly instantly. Was worth every penny. Wish I did that before trying to be cheap and rebuild my original Delco starter.
do you have a link?
No I do not. Someone here posted a link to one a while back. If you know the Case part number you can Google around and find them. Search for "Case Gear Reduction Starter". Glad to help track one down if you know the Case part number.
You can find the Denso part # cross reference for the Case 580C on this page , they list two starters for the case 580c R39341 & 116930A1 Both numbers return the same starter. Here is one example on Amazon , but pls check the numbers and as always, buyer beware.
I have been searching using those terms and others. I've found possibly the right one but not sure because description is unclear and pics are generic.The delco number on starter motor is 1109143. I have a pdf parts catalog that I still need to check for case #
A gear reduction starter will generate a lot more torque that your OEM Delco-Remy will. But, someone correct me if I am wrong ---- It will not increase the cranking speed of the engine. My money would be on determining why the OEM starter won't spin it faster than it does. There has to be an underlying cause of the slow crank speeds. It could be a problem in the fuel injection pump.
The bets are lining up ! Hydraulic pump- (this is the easiest theory of all to test, can you let us know how it goes when the hydraulic coupling is disconnected?) Weak starter - (get a new starter $100 online and see if that makes a difference) Injection pump - ( this is the most difficult of the 3 theories to test for and since the engine will start and run, as you said earlier, I’d suspect it’s the least likely)
Right on BE ! Pull the starter and bar the flywheel. You will know immediately if it turns free. If it does it is a starter issue. If it doesn't -- Hydraulic pump problem, spun a bearing , rod or main, not likely an IP problem. Never say never tho.
Throw gauge on hydraulic pump crank engine see how high it goes I don’t know what standby pressure should be but I’m sure some one here does.
Check the hyd. couplings at the backhoe to see if either one has come apart, disconnect the quick couplers and bypass the backhoe by connecting the lines together for hyd. pump flow.
John ? The crowd is forming and getting anxious, money is on the table ....we need to hear something soon !
Can the hydraulic pump be decoupled from the engine easily? On my Cat I can remove a few bolts and the pump is disconnected. A replacement starter will make it crank faster if the starter is the issue. I could have windings that are shorted leading to less power output. Most rebuilding shops just replace brushes and clean everything. They might clean up any wear from the brushes but beyond that they do nothing but clean and paint it. If you are going to buy a replacement starter I would pay the premium and get a gear reduction unit. You will be glad you did.
as soon as I get back to it,that's the plan
sorry guys, I've catching up on paying work. Will get back to the case soon and let you guys know...thx
all parts inside this starter were replaced
The problem I've been told is there are no OEM parts available, so any rebuild is only as good as the cheap import parts. That $117 amazon starter looks like a good bet. Where's Vetech, still making the popcorn? A gear reduction starter will turn faster and cure many starting problems. You won't pay anymore for that one than a direct drive, but a genuine Denso, or Mahle/Iskra/Letrika will be $300 or so, and worth it if you plan to keep the machine forever. You should be able to turn the engine over with the fan. Might have to grab the belt with one hand also. That will tighten the belt, and the engine will turn easily until you hit the compression. Let it sit five seconds and it will turn again easily. You should be able to turn the engine 360 that way, but since this has run fine, you just want to see if anything is dragging. You know it's not locked up.
With the oil filter almost empty, I'm wondering if your engine is all plugged up with junk. I've seen this before, have you tried running it without the oil filter? Just briefly of course. Since the fuel filter was also blocked, it could be an issue. If the engine can't breath, it could cause slow starting. Remove air filter also, and see if it sucks air, be careful, this has the potential to suck your hand in.
That’s theory #4: - engine plugged up with junk - hydraulic pump stuck or restricted - weak and underperforming starter - injection pump somehow stiff or causing the engine to be restricted Disconnecting the hydraulic pump coupling on my 580se takes 4 bolts, it’s a pain , takes an hour, if you could do that it would eliminate or confirm one theory.
HE TOOK A TIME OUT ON GETTING REPIIES!!! you must have missed his message
can't rule that out yet but seems like there would be a least a spec of evidence in the filter or oil
well guys,the verdict is in. finally found a gear reduction starter with matching part number to my original. less than $200. cranks like a ** now!!!!!!!!! yay now on to the other issues. thank you everyone for trying to help me! I really appreciate it
Great to hear the good news John ! It would be so much easier if starters would just completely fail, this slow degrading thing is a nuisance to figure out. Be sure to let us know how it goes at the motor shop when you take back their rebuilt unit.
I already called them and they said get it back to them and they will do what it takes to make it right
Great news ! What brand is the new starter ? I ask because someone with the same problem may want to know.
Tinkerer’s question + where did you find it?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MTYHIIU?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MTYHIIU?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MTYHIIU?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
I read the description of the starter on the Amazon ad. What caught my attention was that the gear reduction starter has a 9 tooth pinon gear as opposed to a 10 tooth on the OEM. I never thought that could be done without detrimental effects on the ring and pinion gears. Hmmmm ? I read that the nose of the gear reduction starter has a completely different profile to allow the 9 tooth gear.
it works and sounds great like it has proper engagement
I had no doubt that it did, John. I just have a natural curiosity about how anything works. I think perhaps a machinist or some one that knows more than I do, could explain how that substitution can be made without a putting a strain, and accelerated wear of the two gears. Perhaps it is the huge difference in the OD of them that makes it possible.
not sure about any of that but I took measurements and looked real close,then when I installed it I was smiling like crazy
I would have been smiling too ! Especially when everybody suspected bad things were ailing your tractor. I also wonder what the heck was wrong with that rebuilt starter.
me too. I will let you know what they say when I get it back to them. really wish I would have bought the gear reduction 1 first. btw, there are things still ailing my tractor ...lol....pretty sure oil is pissing out at head gasket,good thing it's easy to work on
Well,here goes my attempt at a simple explanation. Gear teeth have a semi curved profile so that as two gears mesh. Called an involute profile. this is so that they can both transmit power and be able to rotate. There are different gear pitches,profiles etc... As long as 2 gears are the same pitch they will mesh. Now, the next important thing is to have the 2 gears center points at the correct distance so the teeth will mesh in the correct position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involute_gear
Thanks for explaining that, Eric. At last I understand how 9 tooth gear can be substituted for a 10 tooth gear. Namely the center points have to be altered to make it possible. I was really curious when I read in the description of the gear reduction starter that the nose section was altered for the 9 tooth.
I'm thinking there wasn't anything wrong with the rebuilt starter. After addressing the slow crank issue it became very apparent that this engine was weak. Huge amounts of blow by and knocking when hot. tearing into it now and this is what I found.
Yeah I think you may have found the issue.
LMAO!
Me Too !!!
Back to the starters, the Delcos originally installed had a mod program through Case changing tooth number drives, the kit was a new drive and a new casting for the rear of the starter, The new casting had the offset changed to allow proper mesh. I did many of those starter mods in the day. you cannot use the 9 tooth drive without changing the drive housing also if you had the 10 tooth drive. There is simply to much gear diameter difference, As Eric pointed out in his post, the center points have to be correct for the new drive, a 9 tooth starters shaft centerline will be closer to the flywheel than the larger 10 tooth.
I know that you've all heard it before, but I just did it and it made a HUGE difference with cranking and all things electrical on my 580se: Remove and clean back to shiny bare metal the ground strap and everything it connects to including frame, bolts, washers etc. My machine (580se) was cranking slow (but starting) and lights were not coming on, finally it stopped cranking altogether. I decided to remove the starter and bench test it, it was fine , lots of pep. What clued me in was when I checked the 12v connections with a test lamp. The test light glowed bright when connected between the + - posts of the battery but the test light was noticeably dimmer everywhere else. At that point I looked at where the ground strap connected to the bolt thru the frame on the back of the battery box and sure enough i could move it a little. I took everything off the ground path (neg battery cable, bolt/washers, woven strap) and cleaned all including the spot where it touches the frame, back to bare metal with a wire wheel and sandpaper. After reassembly, boom!, it was like a new machine.....fast cranking (outside 30F temp) and all electric components working vigorously (lights, wiper, blower, gauges etc). Since this made such a huge difference and I had overlooked it for so long, I suggest that it cant hurt to spend an hour to dismantle and clean your ground strap and all connections. The thing is that my machine did crank and start even with this weak ground connection but it was at half the power as with a good connection. I wasn't aware of this in-between, weak-but-functioning state a poor connection can create. I had thought that an electrical connection could only be ON or OFF and so I never suspected the path from the battery to the frame had a problem. Live and learn !