I'm a new owner of a 69 Case 580 CK. I have spent the last couple of weeks changing the fluids and filters. I drained the fuel tank and replaced all the fuel filters. Over the weekend I cleaned the air cleaner and re-filled the oil for it. The tractor has a brand new battery and a new starter and key switch. I went through all the connections on the starter and cleaned them as well as replacing all the connections on the key switch. The tractor is very hard to start. especially after it has sat for a few days. I have to crank and crank it to get it started. After it starts it runs great. After it warms up it restarts great. I will say that when it is running it smokes, the smoke is grayish in color and when I step on the throttle it picks up great and the smoke turns black. I have quite a bite of experience working on gas engines but no real experience working on diesel engines. Is there a starting procedure for the 580 CK? I just turn the key and crank it for 20 - 30 second periods and leave 60 to 90 seconds in between for the starter to cool down. I don't step on the throttle because it's fuel injected and I've always thought it wasn't needed. To stop the engine I pull the "choke" out. Am i missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions on the starting issue? I there something I should be looking at to help with the the hard starting? Thanks, Brian
If you have a foot throttle, then step on it all the way to start it, and release as the engine gains RPM so that you idle it at about 1,000 RPM or where ever it runs the smoothest near there. How fast does the engine turn over when you're cranking it? a cool/cold old diesel that's turning over slow is going to have a hard time starting. Don't crank it 20-30 seconds, if it doesn't start in ten seconds, plug it in, or heat it up to get it to start. If you run it till it's nice and warm, does it still smoke just running with no load on it? When you rev it up does it keep smoking black, or just as it's speeding up and then clears up when it reaches full speed? How much blowby does it have when it's warmed up and running? If it has a priming lever on a transfer pump, then you could try pumping that several times before you try to start it, if it's leaking air into the fuel pump it will be hard to start.
How/where would I measure the blow by at? I have a pull out "choke" knob that I use to shut the engine off. Is this the priming lever? How would I tell if I have a priming lever? I will take some picture of the dash. I am a newbie when it come to backhoes and diesels. I noticed that there is a heater on the intake manifold that is connected to a solenoid. I don't believe that heater is operational at this time. There is a switch on the dash but it is frozen.
That cable with the button or handle is not a choke control. It is the shut-off for the fuel injection pump. Therefore it has to be pushed in when you are starting the engine. Excessive blow-by are fumes /smoke coming out of the valve cover pipe. #6.
If you have a priming lever, it will be on fuel pump that looks just like one on an old carburated gas engine, located low on the side of the engine block on the camshaft. Follow the fuel line from the tank to the injection pump, the big one, not the small return if there are two fuel lines attached to the fuel tank. It could be gravity feed and there is no transfer pump. You should have easy enough access to see everything so it shouldn't be too hard to see what's there. If the intake manifold has a fuel line attached to it, then it's a flame start heater, they work great, but shouldn't be needed in July. I'd disconnect the fuel line in case it's leaking fuel into the manifold, or leaking air back into the fuel system. As long as you push that "choke" cable back in, and step on the throttle, then it should start with what you're doing. Confirm those two. If it doesn't seem fast enough cranking, then try some good jumper cables direct to the starter body and battery cable at the solenoid, and see if it cranks faster.
I tried to upload a video of the engine cranking but the system wouldn't let me. I wanted to show how it sounded and what the exhaust looked like while it was cranking. I went out this morning and tried putting my foot to the floor on the throttle and cranking it for 10 second increments but all I did was wear down the battery. Usually when I put the charger on and start cranking it the thing seems to start easier. Maybe it's just not cranking fast enough with the new starter that was put in before I bought it. Currently the ground on the battery is a 1" wide braid that is about 6 inches long and is bolted to the frame of the backhoe. The positive cable is not new by any stretch but the contacts on the batter and starter side are clean. I have the old starter that came out of the machine I am thinking about having it rebuilt. I'm not a fan of the newer starters had one in my boat and it was nothing like the old one that came out. I have not notice any blow by or smoke coming out of the tube that you showed in the diagram. I have had it running a bunch of times so I would have definitely noticed that. I will check again when I get it started again Should I think about fixing the intake heater? I'm not sure if I plan on using this during the winter but if it starts this hard now I can't imagine how it will start when it's 10 f outside. I'm not opposed to working on the injectors. I know the machine is over 50 years old and I have no clue when or if the injectors have every been worked on. The fuel filters were not that bad so they had been changed in the past but again no clue as to when.
Measure the voltage drop for the starter. You may have a bad connection somewhere. Using a volt meter put one lead on the positive terminal of the battery and the other lead at the large positive connection on the starter. Make sure it is set on DC volts. Now crank the engine. Note the voltage. Now do the same measurement on the ground side. One lead to negative battery post and the other to the case of the starter. Crank and note that voltage. The voltage in a perfect world would read zero but nothing is perfect. You should read .5 volts or so. If it is higher that is why it is cranking slow. By putting a bosster on it you are increasing system voltage from 12 volt to about 16 volts. So this would compensate for a voltage drop. Measure the battery voltage with nothing on. It should read 12 volts or more. Then measure the battery voltage while cranking. It should stay above 10 volts. if not, you have a weak battery. I would get the heater working. I doubt it will take much to get it working and it will help. If the engine is tired it will start hard. Ideally you should do a compression test.
The intake manifold heater is an electrical coil assembly. No diesel fuel involved. The switch on the dash operates a relay that supply's a lot of 12 volt amps to the coil. The heater is never ever used with ether !!! A good strong battery or two depending on the battery set-up is mandatory. You may have a problem with the fuel supply or even the injection pump that requires long cranking times.
The battery is brand new. It is a 65-1 Die Hard with 750 CCA and 950 CA at 32 degrees. It is exactly what was in there when I got it. Should I be looking at a bigger battery?
No. That one should be fine. The manifold heater should not be needed in warm weather. Like edgephoto said do a compression test before throwing a lot of time and money at things that are OK. Sometimes old worn-out motors need a sniff of ether even in warm weather to start. That would be an extreme case of low compression tho.
I do not know what the specs are for your machine's battery. Just be aware that new does not mean it is good. Also spend time diganosing and checking everything before throwing parts at it. I my day job I am an engineer for an auto manufacturer. I see so many technicians get hung up on "it is new" and assume the part is good. Always verify with proper testing. I would do the voltage drop test. If you machine is cranking slow and the motor is older it may be hard to start. Once you know it is cranking at the right speed then move to the fuel system checks. I always say "Plan your work. Work your plan". Make a list of things to check. Rearange them in order of easiest to hardest and work your way down the list.
I agree on new does not mean good..... I did the voltage checks and the positive cable had ~ .450 volts on it when cranking. The ground side had 240 milli volts. The battery had over 10 volts while cranking as the engine started to spin the voltage actually increase to 12. I tried several time to start it with no joy. So I gave it a shot of ether at the top of the air cleaner and she started right up. Now this leads me to think from information given in prior posts that I may be looking at a low compression issue. I was considering this last night that might be an issue so I ordered a tool online that is supposed to help with the compression testing. It looks like it goes in place of the pencil injector and you can put the compression gauge on it. I have been doing compression tests on gasoline engines for years but never have I done one on a diesel engine. I looked in the service manual and there wasn't much information on how to do it or what values to look for. Perhaps the manual I got is just a poor one. I got in on Ebay it's on a CD. While it was running I followed the tube coming from the valve cover and although I couldn't find the end exactly, it ended in back of the frame on the left front side of the tractor I could not see any smoke or feel any air coming from where I assume it was. QUESTION***** If the tub was plugged with dirt or mud would that cause a problem? I'm think this tube may be similar to a PCV valve in a car without the valve. The front of the tractor where the hydraulic pump is has some old dirt/mud in there and that is where the tub looks like it ends. I have another newbie question. There are 2 throttles on the backhoe the one on the floor and the one on the steering column. The one on the steering column is for when I'm using the backhoe I believe. My tachometer is not working right now. I'm figuring once I get it so I can start it reliably I'll tackle that. I'm thinking it's a gear or the piece in the cable if not I'll end up looking for a replacement. Back to the original question. What position should I set the throttle on the steering column to? It says in the operators manual that when using the backhoe the engine speed should be between 1500 and 1800 RPMs which right now I have to guess at what RPM I'm running at. When I'm finished I guess at how low to put that throttle. Since the tractor is hard to start should I leave it on the faster side or would slower be better? Thanks for all the input.......
The tube from the valve cover is open all the through and needs to be clear of any crap. If the engine has a lot of blow-by you will see it coming out of that tube. It will look like a smokestack. If it is plugged you will have oil and fumes leaking/ blowing out of the dipstick. Run the engine speed at whatever you can comfortably operate the back-hoe. And at least fast enough to get the work done.
I'd run the hand throttle about half way until you get used to it.
If you take the injectors out, might as well just order new ones. I'd expect 350-400 PSI compression so don't use a gauge rated for less than 450. More importantly to any spec I've seen is that you want the cylinders to all be within 10%, so 400, 400, 380 and 360 is passing. 360, 360, 400, and 410 would not be passing. Ether doesn't tell you much, only that it's hard to start and it starts better with ether. Could be worn rings, valves, or just cranking too slow. Could also be marginal compression, cranking speed, and injector pattern, timing. Ether will make them all start easier. If you run it till it's nice and warm, does it still smoke just running with no load on it? When you rev it up does it keep smoking black, or just as it's speeding up and then clears up when it reaches full speed?
Also after pushing the fuel shut off in pull your handle throttle to wide open then back to idle. If the springs inside pump are sticking that helps reset it. I learned that from experience on the same machine.
While I'm waiting for the tool to come so I can do a compression test. I figured I'd take a few videos hoping that if some of the extremely experienced people out here see and hear it they might be able to have more insight as to the health of my Case. Since the forum will not allow me to post videos, well, I couldn't figure out how I went ahead and created 3 You Tube videos. The first one is of the engine turning over but not starting. I'm hoping if somebody hears it they can tell me if it sounds like it's turning over fast enough. The next two videos are of the engine running I took them at different angles so that the color of the smoke could be seen. The engine smokes pretty much constantly. It gets dark black when I get on the throttle hard but the smoke gets less as it runs at higher speeds. As soon as it goes back down it smokes up again. I don't know if the video's will help but I used this before on another forum when I had a very strange problem with a VW.
It sounds like and looks like you have compression and injector problems.
I'm with Coy, but I have worked on hundreds of those engines and would make sure there are no push rods jumped out and go over the rocker arm settings. I have had numerous customers call for service for gaining oil in the pan and always it was a push rod out of place and they never realized it was missing and the fuel was not being burned and was going by the rings and into the pan. Just something I would check because it is not difficult.
Sounds like it is cranking at a good RPM. Engine sounds off. I would do compression check. Make sure to have a charger hooked up to the battery when cranking for the compression test. If not you will get false low readings due to the battery being discharged with each test. When doing a compression test it is important to watch how fast the compression builds as well as the reading. You should do 5 compression strokes. You will see the needle jump each time. if you do 6 it is not a problem but try and keep things consistent so you can compare readings. The relationship of all the cylinders to each other is as important as the overall reading. Is the pump timed properly?
Hi, I received my compression test tool today. I'm not sure it's the correct one. I have attached 3 pictures. It says for pencil type injectors. On the bottom end of the tester is a valve core like in a the valve stem of a tire???? So as far as the compression test goes I assume I have to remove all the injectors and shut the fuel injector pump off by pulling out the knob on the dash. Then crank the engine and move the test tool from injector hole to injector hole letting it crank 5 no more than 6 times for each hole. From the previous question above how would I check to see if the injection pump is timed correctly? One last question can anyone please tell me what the thing that I circled is? it looks like some kind of filter but I'm not sure. If it is can you please give me the part number of the filter that goes in it. Thank you for all the support. Brian
The valve core is basically the same that is used for a tire or air conditioning. You need that so the tester will hold pressure as you crank. If the valve core is not there you will see the gauge climb and go to zero as you crank. For a leakdown test you remove that valve core so you can pressurize the cylinder.
Agree: That's cranking plenty fast enough to start that with or without the green grass on the lawn. The engine sounds funny, could be the cherry bomb muffler? could be somebody messed with it who should have stuck with muffler repairs. If you find a cylinder low, put some air pressure into that cylinder and see where the air leaks out, crankcase breather, intake manifold, exhaust...
The Cherry bomb was in it when I bought it. I was thinking about replacing. The lawn is mostly white flowering clover. The deer like it..... I have been thinking about replacing the muffler. I was at Tractor Supply the other day and they had one that looked like it would fit. Other than starting hard the tractor runs pretty well although to be honest I wouldn't know what a good running tractor sounds like. I have a lot to learn. I checked today and realized that I need to go pickup a pressure gauge that goes over 400 psi. Mine is automotive and only goes over 200. I cleaned the air filter the other day but I realized that I didn't do a very good job so since I have to remove it to take the engine cover off i'll soak it for a couple of days in diesel with the hope if getting it cleaner. I'm hoping to at least get to taking off the engine cover this weekend although 2 of my grand daughters are visiting so I have other priorities
I'm thinking which isn't always good. I will be removing the injectors probably this weekend to do the compression test. I'm thinking that I will probably mess them up getting them out since this machine is a at least 50 years old and who knows if they have ever been removed. So I want to order 4 new injectors to replace the ones I'll be taking out. When I order them how do I specify the injector pressure. I have looked at several different places and there is no place to specify the pressure. I know it has to be set at 2800 psi. Are they all set at 2800? Do I have to take them somewhere to have them checked or will they come preset. How will I know?
They come pre set.. w the seals already installed.. all ya gotta do is put a little anti seize on the body n work it into the hole.. The proper tool to get them out costs right at 100.-130.00 .. Most Advance Auto Parts has them in their loaner tool program.. at least they do out here in Gods country.. U can go w oem injectors n pay 3x more than aftermarket w the same warranty.. There is a p# stamped into the body of the injector where the inlet pipe meets the body.., you’ll probably need a wire wheel to see it.. it’s a 5 digit number.. Most of the injectors have been superseded 3x so don’t get discouraged when looking them up, or if/when u get them n they’re a different p#..Good luck w your project..
I'm about 50% into my compression test/injector removal. Pulled the engine cover off had to remove the cherry bomb muffler. Drained the lines labeled and removed them from the injectors. 2 look very old 2 look like they may have been replaced somewhere in time going by the amount of rust on them. It got hot so I'm waiting for it to cool down before I attempt to pull them and do the compression test. Also I was going to replace the thermostat while I'm here because i have never seen the temperature gauge go above 140. Now I know that doesn't mean much but I'm there and the parts are cheap and there's a possibility that it might not have one at all. My question is what type of antifreeze should I put back in there. Right now it appears to be orange which could be Dexcool or just rusty I'll find out when I drain it out. Is there a preferred brand. I'm guessing probably not since 50 years ago there was not many different types on the market but I figured I'd ask. Thanks, Brian
It needs coolant made for diesel engines. It contains additives that prevents pitting caused by cavitation and corrosion of brass, copper, solder, steel, cast iron and aluminum. Provides cylinder liner cavitation protection.
Do your injector lines have o-rings at the ends that connect to the injectors? When I took mine off I thought two had o-rings but now that I look at them there are grooves where they might go but nothing there. Two had a rubber seal behind the "nozzle" inside the coupler, two didn't. The Case parts diagrams don't seem to reflect what I have for the year. Interested to know what others have.
there are rubber washers on the tees and on where the tees connect I didn't see any where the pump connects to the injector
I pulled my injectors I'm so glad i purchased the injector puller. It made getting them out so easy. I did have to use a bigger slide hammer to get 2 out. Then I did my compression test: Cylinder 1 340 psi Cylinder 3 0 psi Cylinder 4 0 psi Cylinder 2 330 psi Not quite what I was expecting. I know that the cylinders that have compression are low but i'm not worried about right now. After I got these numbers I pulled the valve cover to make sure all the rocker arms were moving and the push rods were there and not bent. They were all in good shape all valves appear to be moving correctly. So now I'm thinking that I have a bad head gasket between cylinders 3 and 4. I noticed that when I have the compression tester in either cylinder 3 or 4 I can hear air coming out of the exhaust. I don't think this is good and another sign that the head gasket is bad. It looks like this tractor has been running on 2 cylinder for who knows how long. Now I'm open for suggestions for my next steps. Should I pull the head and have it rebuilt? Just replace the head gasket? I'm really not up for rebuilding the whole engine nor do I have the space to do it other then in my back yard and I have never rebuilt a complete engine only replace heads.
I would perform a cylinder leakage test. Find why there is no compression. I teach and preach about knowing what you are looking for before you dive into a tear down. Perform tests to know what you should see once you get it apart.
Orange could be rust or even RV anti-freeze. Combustion gas going out the exhaust on the compression stroke is usually a burnt valve or a burnt seat. Or both.
you might have a problem there. The middle two are a pair, meaning they're on the same throw, meaning they go up and down exactly the same, just on the opposite stroke, so 2 is on compression stroke while 3 is on exhaust, so if there's a gap between the two, then 2 will exhaust through the open exhaust valve on 3 instead of compressing, then 3 will exhaust through cylinder 2 on the next revolution. If you have 0 compression, it's not going to be hard to see where the leakage is going, just blow some air into each of the two and see where it goes. Then post back if you want. You'll be pulling the head eventually, and then we can advise you on what to do with it, easy checks, and then put it back together with a new head gasket, check the valve lash. Before you pull it apart, has it ever lost coolant? does it blow any pressure into the cooling system? Where did the orange come from?
The coolant was that color when I picked it up. I have owned it for about a month. It is/was running although smoking quite a bit. The coolant level has been steady. I haven't noticed any pressure in the cooling system although I haven't had the cap off while it was running. I will try blowing some air into cylinders 3 and 4 and see where it goes. I guess is out the exhaust. I noticed yesterday as I was doing the compression test I head noise when I was testing 3 and 4 and it was the sound of air moving quickly out the exhaust. Thank you Delmer and everyone for you assistance.
Ok I messed on on the cylinder numbers I corrected them Then I did my compression test: Cylinder 1 340 psi Cylinder 2 0 psi Cylinder 3 0 psi Cylinder 4 330 psi I was watching a you tube video and it dawned on me that the firing order and the the where the cylinder numbers are on the block DUH........ not the same. So it the 2 cylinders in the middle that have no compression. B
I completely missed that they were out of order the first time, changes nothing, I would have been wrong if it was 3 and 4, but probably same result. If the cooling system is holding pressure, then you probably just need a head gasket.
My extended service diesel coolant is orange. When I got my tractor is was green with lots of rust sediment that came out when it was drained. When in doubt, throw it out.
I would like to check the valve lash adjustment I have looked over the engine and I have read that there may be a plug in the back of the engine near the starter that I can remove so that I can set TDC. I do not have a plug but I do have what looks like a hex head bolt about an 1" maybe. I have not tried to remove it yet, is that so I can see the timing marks that are on the fly wheel? I looked on the front down behind the hydraulic pump on the pulley but I don't see anything there. Can anyone offer some help here? I like to at least check the valve adjustment before I remove the head. It's a long shot but if the adjustment is off maybe it's why I have 0 compression.
More than likely you have a bad head gasket allowing cyl. 2 and 3 to swap air and not build pressure. May have a cracked block between cyl.
You don't need to set TDC to check the valve clearance. You should be able to rotate the engine by hand, by grabbing the fan and belt and tugging. When one cylinder has both valves tight or open, you check the valve clearance on it's pair 1 and 4, or 2 and 3. There's ways to do it with less turning, but it takes more reading or remembering.
The timing viewing opening is the 1" head bolt behind the power steering lines on the right side of the bell Housing above the starter.
Thank you !!!!!!
Question? Does the line actually say TDC or DC or is the line just longer? I have been jogging the engine with the starter and have found numbers as high as 30 and as low as 10 and once I had it on a line that was longer than all the rest. I was thinking that was it but I wasn't sure.
I think I saw 10, 20 and 30 on the degree marker strip. My fuel pump timing marks lined up when the toque converter was 2 lines below the 10 so 8 degrees before TDC. I still have the starter off so I can likely get you a pic from that side.
i had a 580CK and always had a problem with return line running around rear of engine getting pin hole rubbing on the block sucking air
From the service manual. You should be seeing this. --->
On my CK the timing hole is a 1"bolt that I remove. I do not have access to the teeth on the flywheel through it. I'm thinking it's because I have wet clutches. The bolt has a gasket on it to prevent oil from leaking out. I have been trying not to remove the starter. I have tried to put tension on the fan bolt but I have not been able to rotate the crank that way. I may have to give in and remove the stater.
The timing hole on mine does not allow access to the ring gear teeth either. You have to remove the oil filter to remove the starter since there isn't enough room to pull it clear of the bell housing. Make sure to use a thin wrench on the jam nut on the main starter post or you'll twist the stud and break the solenoid cap. Speaking from recent experience. The wiring harness was too tight to allow me to move it out of the way without disconnecting the wiring.
. Did you put one hand on the belt to keep it tight, and the other hand on the fan to get more torque on the belt? That's always worked for me, and we know you don't have higher compression. It will only move a tiny bit at a time, let it sit five seconds, and move another tiny bit, that's just what you want.
I didn't even try to turn the engine over with the fan belt when removing the fuel pump. I'd be concerned about breaking the belt and having to take the hydraulic pump off to replace it. But now look where I am with a broken starter solenoid cap. ♂️
The Fan belt is pretty lose so I'll try adjusting it and then try again.
I was able to adjust the valve lash and no joy..... I'm going to remove the head in the morning. Besides the bolt that is behind the water pump is there any other gotcha's I should be worried about. I have read the removal procedure from the service manual. What should I be looking for once I get the head removed.
Like I said above you should perform enough testing to know what you should expect to find before disassembly. You never want to go into an engine hoping to see something. Time and money are wasted. Perform a cylinder leakage test. If you do not have a tester just bring cylinder 2 up to TDC and put air in the cylinder. If the engine rotates when you do that, stop and try again. If you have the rod in the right spot it won't move. Since you have zero compression you could just have someone hold the crank with a wrench while on TDC. Apply air and see where is is coming from. Put a rubber glove over the exhaust pipe. if it inflates you should expect to see an exhaust valve issue. In your case since it is ajacent cylinders I would think when you put air in the cylinders you will find an issue between the cylinders, head gasket, cracked or damaged cylinders. Use the compression tester hose put air in the cylinder. Just remember to remove the valve core in the hose.
I tried what you said Edgephoto I brought the #2 cylinder up to TDC and put air in the cylinder. I also had a rubber glove over the exhaust pipe and another on the intake pipe. My little compressor is not doing to well I was only able to charge it to 60 psi but it was enough to inflate the rubber glove on the exhaust pipe. I put my finger over the injector hole on cylinder #3 and i couldn't feel any air coming out of the hole nor was the glove on the intake pipe moving at all. Now I'm thinking I possibly have a valve problem maybe not a head gasket issue. I did find a shop within an hour of my house that says they can rebuild the head if needed. He came recommended from the machine shop I use for automotive work but he said he didn't like doing heavy equipment.
The rubber glove is a dam fine trick.!!
Sounds like burned exhaust valve. That comes from a lean mixture. If you find burned valves you should send your injectors out for rebuild.
Flip the head over, tape over the injector hole, cover the valves with diesel, they'll leak away quick or hold for a good while, that's a rough test for the valves. You can compress them and look at the valve margin and the seat too. But look at the gasket carefully too. With two cylinders at 0, I'd be surprised if the gasket isn't the main issue.
I have the head ready to come off all the nuts and bolts have been removed both manifolds are off as well as the water pump. I check for the hidden bolt it wasn’t there. I can’t get the head to move up at all it’s locked down tight on the block any suggestions?
Smack it with a hammer on the side of the back of the head, use a chisel into a solid looking place at the back of the head. But first, MAKE SURE that bolt isn't there.
Help me out please. The chisel is NOT going along the gasket line is it? Does it matter which side I hit the head on? Is it possible to hit it too hard? I have a 5 lb hammer I'm thinking that is the one I'll be using. I had an idea, on the right side of the head there is a lip that sticks out about 3/4 to 1" I was thinking about putting a piece of wood 2 x 4 going up from the ground on top of a jack. Then jack the wood up hopefully to start to separate the head from the block. I may try this if the hammer does not work.
Are you absolutely sure all the nuts are off ? Don't go nuts with that chisel ! A bar in an intake or exhaust port should pop the head loose with very little effort.
Yes, you can hit it too hard. Yes, the chisel can damage something, try it where there's a little more meat in the head and block, it should pop the seal loose on the gasket and then be easy to take loose. If the back of the head pops loose but the front is stuck, then you know you missed the bolt, don't pry it anymore. If there's a tab you can hit up on with a block of wood, that's safer, I still think you need to hit it though. It's the seal you're trying to break.
I spent over 2 hours this afternoon with a 3 foot pipe sticking in the exhaust port and the intake ports trying to lift the head up couldn't get it to budge.
The more I think about this the more the head gasket or leak between cylinders is a good possibility. When cylinder 2 is on compression stroke, 3 is on exhaust stroke. So if you out air in either cylinder on compression stroke and there is a leak between the two you will have air going out the exhaust. Usually if it is a valve and you have zero compression you can usually spot the problem with the eye-crometer. The problem will be obvious. I see you are struggling to get the head off. Engines with studs instead of head bolts can be a pain. If there is corrosion around the stud in the hole it can be a bear to get off. My Jaguar V12 was a complete nightmare to get the heads off. On that engine the head studs are in the coolant jacket and the head is aluminum so you have galvanic corrosion. What old timers do on those heads is pour Coke around the studs and let it sit overnight and then they to use an engine hoist to try and lift the head. You lift the front end literally off the ground and let it sit like that. The weight of the vehicle will eventually break the head free.
Ok I got it to move I have it up about 3/8 of an inch all around I know that the bolt behind the water pump is NOT there I have a camera that Is on a wire and I stuck it in the hole to have a look. I ended up sticking a 3' pipe in the end exhaust port and then I put my 3' breaker bar in the pipe it was just enough leverage to get the thing to move. I just soaked all the studs again with PB Blaster. Does any body know how heavy the head is? I'll be the first to say I'm not the strongest guy in the world but it's moving pretty hard. I'm going to switch to wooden wedges and see if that helps. Waiting for the shade it's in the sun right now and it's in the 90's today. Then I call my easy button. My 33 year old cross fit training son to come over he'll probably lift it out with one hand...... To be young again....
I'd guess around 100 pounds, not too bad except you have to reach in there to try to pick it up. If it's hanging up on corrosion on the studs, use ratchet straps under the head and over some 4x4's across the top of the tractor to assist.
Thanks to my easy button we got the head off after about 3 hours of work. The center stud was the culprit. It had so much carbon around and in it We kept moving it up a little and then bringing it down soaking it in PB Blaster and repeat. I checked out the head and the valves and the valves are pitted especially the ones for cylinders 2 and 3. I'm going to take it to the machine shop hopefully tomorrow to have it checked. I also what to make sure it's flat. The cylinder walls look good I felt no ridge at the tops. Other than a bit of carbon they look pretty good. I want to clean the top of the block. What should I use? I was going to spray it down with something and them wipe it off with a couple of clean rags. I'm also plan on using compressed air and a vacuum cleaner to make sure there are not particles inside the cylinders. Does anyone have some recommendations on cleaning up the block? Also can I spin the engine over or will it mess up the cylinder sleeves? I just want to make sure all the pistons are moving......
Well you found your culprit.Pretty much as expected. Your testing had it narrowed down to a head gasket blown between cylinders or burned exhaust valves. More likely the head gasket because one thing going wrong is more likely that two things. Once you decided to tear down you knew what you were looking for. Like I said do enough testing so you know what to expect when tearing things down. While things are apart consider some "while you are here" maintenance. Thermostat, hoses, water pump and some that come to mind. I would also send my injectors out for a rebuild.
I use an extremely sharp 1 inch wide wood chisel to scrape gasket crap off. It has to be used at a very flat angle to prevent scratches. Never ever use a wire wheel of any kind.
I'm looking for recommendations I am installing the new head gasket today. When I removed the head 3 or 4 of the studs came out. Should I put the studs back or just put them in the way they came out. I was planning to put some sealer on the threads to make sure there is no seepage once everything is back together.
Take the nuts off of the studs and reinstall the studs with them off. I like to run a tap in the block to clean the threads and a die over the bolt or stud threads to clean them also. I always use a sealer on block end of studs.
Put studs in 1’st.. I’d use Blue Loctite on the threads.. use the “double nut” method to tighten the studs.. ALL THE STUDS.. Most people will tell u, u don’t use sealer on a head gasket.. I have no point of view on it.. others will tho.
I have the head installed new gasket (no sealer) all torqued down. This afternoon I put the rocker arm assembly and push rods in place. I am wondering how to get the engine to TDC now. I probably should have though of this before I put the head on. I am being extra cautious I have seen push rods get bent and I really don't want to do that..... I spun the crank by hand and slowly I found TDC, well I'm on it, but I can't tell if the number one cylinder is on the compression stroke or not. Before I had the head off it was easy because I could spin the push rods to see which ones were tight but now none are loose. I was wonder about that until it dawned on me that the machine shop had machined the head and replaced some valves. If I take the plate of the fuel pump if the engine is at TDC and number 1 cylinder is on it's compression stroke will the 2 dots be lined up? If that won't work is there another way for me to tell? I stuck a small wire down the injector holes and the 1 cylinder was up but I can't tell with this method which stroke it was on. Any ideas? I'm off tomorrow so I might have the engine running is I can figure this out...... Thanks in advance.....
The timing on your pump is either 8* BTDC or at TDC.. IF its a RoosaMaster/Stanadyne.. So to answer your question>> Yes, if u take the side cover off, it might be there.. if its not, roll it back a smidge..& look for the lines.. IF its a CAV/Delphi pump, There are LETTERS behind the cover.. I'd hafta know the pump #'s to tell u what letter its supposed to line up with..
I didn't re read the whole thing, did you remove the injection pump or the timing gears? or just the head? If you just removed the head, you don't need to worry about the timing unless you changed the injection pump timing, or you just want to double check.
Don't mess with the timing. It ran before you dismantled the engine. It will run again. Do a good job of bleeding the air out of the fuel system all the way to those new injectors and you will be in good shape.
I have to adjust the valve lash because of the head work. I am not planning on messing with the pump I just want to get the number 1 cylinder to TDC so I can adjust the valve lash before a try to start it for the first time after replacing the head gasket and having the head worked on.
You said earlier that you found 10°. Count down to 0 or a line longer than all the others. You will be able to wriggle both rocker arms on #1 when it is TDC.
Right now I have the engine sitting on the line D/C and I can't move any of the push rods on any of the cylinders. I had the head machined and they replaced 3 valves and put in new valve guides at the machine shop. I'm thinking that is way none of the push rods will move. it's also why I am trying to find how to make sure I have the number 1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke before I adjust the valve lash on any of the cylinders.
You may be 180° off. Remember that the camshaft does not turn the same speed as the crankshaft. That would cause you to not be on the end of the compression stroke when you r on TDC. Loosen the rocker arms on #1 cyl. Watch for both of them to quit moving while you turn the crankshaft to TDC.
Watch for two pushrods to move at almost the same time, that's top dead center between the exhaust/intake strokes, the pair to that cylinder will be at top dead center of the compression stroke. 1and 4 are a pair, 2 and 3 are a pair. Loosen all of the valves, and set the ones that aren't moving, then double check as you rotate the engine a couple times.
I got everything set on the rocker assembly, installed the injectors and fuel lines with new rubber washers. I installed a new thermostat and gasket. It didn't have one before. I went to install the water pump and I got hung up a bit. The PO removed for, what ever reason, the stud on the water pump and put in a 7/16 bolt. He tapped the hole for the bolt. One of the other holes is taped for a 3/8 inch bolt. What I'm trying to figure out what bolts are suppose to be in the pump. I looked on line at the Case parts manual and it looks like the 2 that are not suppose to be the stud are 2 3/4" grade 5 3/8" bolts. When I tried to insert a bolt of that size into the top hole on the water pump it couldn't catch any threads. I think the gasket might be in the way. I think I can fix that pretty quick if that is where it goes. Does the top hole on the water pump actually screw into the head? I was thinking that since one of the 3 holes is tapped for a 7/16 bolt and the other is tapped for a 3/8 bolt they are 1". I could just tap the last hole for a 7/16 bolt and be done with it. Does anyone have information on what the bolts are suppose to be? Thanks
The water pump is on as well as the intake and exhaust manifolds. I have to fill the radiator and bleed the fuel lines and they I'll try to start it up. I ended up putting a 2 3/4 in bolt in the water pump it turned out to be the gasket was in the way of the hole. I made sure there was sealer on all the bolts. Putting the fan blade on was a bit of a pain but I got to use my new set of ratcheting box end wrenches which made the task a bit easier. I'm planning on running it with just water until I'm sure everything is alright then I'll drain it down and put antifreeze in it and change the oil again.
I found the bleeding of the fuel lines took longer than I anticipated. I think part of the problem was that I didn't have enough fuel in the tank. After I went and picked up 5 gallons of fuel the bleeding process sped up. I waiting until the fuel lines were dripping I didn't disconnect them completely and then I tightened them down. Press the peddle to the floor and turned the key and she fired right up and no smoke.... I did fill the radiator with water and I noticed after it started that I was getting some water out of the overflow. I'm not sure exactly what is happening but I believe that the radiator cap is bad. The engine never had a thermostat and I installed a 180 degree one. I believe that is why I'm seeing the water coming out of the overflow tube I make a video of the engine running. If you want to see what it looked like originally check out the first page. Now I'm going to order a new radiator cap and they let the engine run for over and hour then I'll go back and re-torque all the bolts on the head and everywhere that I touched. Does anyone know what the average fuel consumption is on the backhoe? My fuel gauge is not working right now I'm just curious what the gallons / hour might be. Now I can focus on fixing the leaky cylinders and some of the gauges like the fuel gauge......
I'd guess you'll have to work fairly hard to burn 2 gallons an hour. You probably don't have an overflow/expansion tank on the radiator, in that case the top tank is the expansion tank and you have to leave the coolant an inch below full. If you fill it right to the top, it will ALWAYS overflow some as it heats up. I'd run it with the water and check the level, but don't add any as long as it's covering all the tubes. Then you can see if it's using coolant or not.
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It should be all set now.
Sounds good !
I put a new rad cap on after I realized the one that came with it was too short. There was no pressure since the rubber seal didn't even touch the bottom of the filler throat. I filled the rad and put a tube on the overflow but nothing came out there, it just leaked out of the cap and found it's own operating level. How much fuel did you have in the tank when you tried starting it? I'm putting my fuel pump back on and will be bleeding and starting mine with new fuel.
going toss My 2 cents here also..my boss had similar old hoe, Terrible to start also, he installed a block heater, we would plug her in 30mins before starting..wow did that ever help..it was better than fresh glow plugs..lol As he didn't want spend any real $ & fix the other problem..Good luck
That engine sounds great. Well done! Thanks for sharing and posting.