Hi guys. I am new here. I have been in the market for a backhoe for about a year. My company has been renting one from another company off and on, and now we've got enough work to buy an old one to use once every two weeks or so when we need it. I am young, 26, so I don't have a big company or anything that will run the machine all the time. I do small right-of-way clearing jobs for a local land developer, and also do commercial landscapes. This is why I want an old one, because I can only work it 10 to 30 hours a month max. A week ago I found a Case 580K 4x4, Extend-a-Hoe, 4-in-1 bucket, decent shape, a few leaks here and there on the cylinders, a small leak on a steering connection, and a very minor oil leak on the bottom gasket. The unit has 7000 hours, looks to have a new alternator, fuel pump, and possibly injectors. All fluids and filters are brand new looking. The old guy who owns it bought it at auction three years ago and is selling it now because he bought a smaller excavator and wants to use that instead. The tires on the machine are in good condition. He wants $11,000, but may take a "little" less. I have looked all over online and this price seems reasonable. Thoughts? Things I noticed: The engine oil smells a bit like burnt brakes. There is very, very little smoke in the exhaust. Less than most of my tractors that have less hours. The machine does seem a little weak with movement, though. The hydraulic oil smells a tiny bit burnt--like maybe a clutch going bad somewhere? There is also a good stream of clean blowby coming from the tube under the unit. It doesn't smell funny, and neither does the exhaust. I have talked to my local Case dealer, and they didn't really want to say anything since they haven't seen it, etc. They recommended I come here and ask you guys for ideas/advice/things to look for. I have read over the posts here for probably five or six hours in the last three days, which has been very helpful. Any comments on this potential purchase would be appreciated. Thank you.
As long as the blowby isn't too severe, it sounds like a deal. Does it have the 4 speed shifter in the floor, or the right fender?
is there any way you can put it through its paces before you buy it? and roi is going to suck if you only work it 10-30 hours a month sounds like you would be better off renting as needed
Thanks Mitch and Monster. The blowby is not "severe" (like, I have an old Cummins 5.9 with 450k and that shoots out purple smoke from the bottom of the engine... I consider that severe). It is a steady stream of air, though. I don't know how to measure blowby. I assume the engine on this 580K is fairly worn at the 7000hr point. As far as working it: I can put it through its paces on this man's property. He said I can dig, drive it up a very steep incline (to test the power and 4x4), whatever I want. Before I wasted his time, though, I wanted to hear from some people on whether I should consider it for the price, hours, etc. The unit has a floor stick shifter and floor 4wd transfer case selector. If the clutches(?) go inside the shuttle/trans, what sort of price do you think I would be looking at for a trans rebuild? I have heard very discouraging answers to this question, ranging up to the $10,000 mark (and even beyond). Is that at all accurate? I will try my Case dealer again Monday on this one to see if I can get some answers. My diesel engine mechanic said the engine is no big deal. He said he could do a basic rebuild for under $3,000, which I think is very fair. I am not really concerned with immediate ROI. I just want the machine for the lower stress of not having to hustle through work to meet a rental time. Nothing is worse than doing a small job, sending an invoice, and then having the client ask you to "just dig the swale/ditch/grade a little different in one spot" or something like that. And then you're back at the rental place forking over all your profit. If you own the machine, you own your flexibility and the ability to do a better job with less stress on scheduling. And a machine is an asset--unless it blows up...
I would go for it, you are getting a backhoe with 4x1, 4x4, extenda hoe for the price of a 2wd backhoe. You are going to have some repairs with those hrs. I have seen machines with high hrs. before that are worn slap out, and seen some that ran a lot and only had high engine hrs. and it was used very little. The big things are 4x4 u joints in the steering/drive along with the there king pins, brakes, hyd pump, engine, trans, shuttle, pin and bushings, Packing kits. You can get a rebuilt power shuttle and convertor at broken tractor for $2500.00 exchange.
Thanks Sheep. We are doing some sod in the morning and if light holds out I am doing to go back to the property and take a look at it again and drive it up his steep incline. I agree that it is a good value for all the extras. The old guy is old-school and hasn't put it on Craigslist, Trading Post, or anything, which is why I think he hasn't sold it yet. It is just sitting on the side of the highway at an inconvenient place to stop. He doesn't seem to care if anyone buys it, and I doubt by his asking price if he has researched the value. The key is literally in the machine and it is 300 yards from any house or building, and completely out of sight from the owner's house. Hahaha. Somebody could literally just get in and drive it away...
sounds like you just won a free backhoe lol seriously though if the machine runs good and is ready to work the price isn't bad.
I went by there this afternoon and drove it again. Did some digging. Hoe controls are backwards from the Cases I know, which is terrible for me. I guess I can swap a couple hose connections and fix that, though. In gears 3 and 4 the machine doesn't want to climb slight grades on the road. In gear one, it goes up a very steep grade, to the point where the front comes off, and it will keep driving. Before leaving, as the sun was setting, I checked the main hydraulic fill point and noticed that the hydraulic oil was not even registering on the dipstick. Unfortunately, I was out of time to fill it and drive it again. I wonder if this has something to do with the weak power? Since I have been there twice, I don't want to wear out my welcome by going back with a bucket of oil and asking him to drive it a third time. Would low Hydraulic oil be a fault for weak power in 3 and 4? I want to drive this machine on the road from time to time, but as it sits I can't do that. It would be too slow in gear 2 to get anywhere. What do you guys think about that? He said he will do $10,800 for the machine and that's his lowest price. I don't think it's that bad of a deal really. My dealer said they could do most trans repairs, since it is not a Series 3, for around $3,500. Who knows if that's true...
I wouldn't worry about wearing out my welcome, whether you're bringing the oil or not, you're not stringing him along, you just want to know if his machine works. I can't help on the transmission, but what exactly does "doesn't want to climb" mean? Did it slow the engine way down and you stopped, or does the engine keep going same speed and the tractor stop? Feel free to see what it does with the oil full before answering.
Delmer, When I get to a slight grade in 3 or 4 the engine remains at a constant RPM, doesn't sound like it's working hard, but the machine slows down. It seems like a clutch problem to me since the engine isn't struggling, but I am not an expert. I will go back tomorrow or Weds with hydraulic oil and try again. I do have a feeling that the trans is worn out a bit. I can't tell which way to go on this machine. So many things to consider...
If the machine pulls like a beast in low and loads the bucket fair in 2nd, 3rd and 4th are road gears. Most will not pull but just so much in fourth up a incline without having to drop into 3rd and then to 2nd depending on the grade. You almost have to be moving flat or down hill to start in 4th. The turbo machines did a little better on hills. Max rpm has to be checked along with clean fuel and air filters, tire pressure right, brakes and parking brake not dragging. It does not take much to take the wind out of them.
But shouldn't it pull the engine down when it slows down? Tough call, still seems like a deal at that price but you don't want to buy a project if you're looking for something to work (with, not on). See what the oil fill does and then think about it if it doesn't make it right.
I may be mistaken, but if the clutches are slipping they will not drag the engine down so far as I know. I assume it's like when a clutch in a truck goes bad and the engine will be revving up and barely moving the load through an intersection--then sometimes the clutch will catch and pull the truck forward. I think that since the clutch is slipping the engine is turning over but is not able to get power through the powertrain to the rear diff. I may be wrong on this, but this is how I understand the powertrain of this machine. My fear is buying something for $11k and then having to put $3-5k into a trans that will not increase the value of the machine. I mean, who will believe me if I ever want to sell the machine and I say, "I rebuilt the clutches..." Even if I have receipts, I still don't think it will add much value to the unit. Paint, glass, etc, on the other hand, would probably put it up a couple grand by itself. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to talk about this.
I'm agreeing with you, sounds like it's slipping, not lugging it down like it should if you take a hill in road gear. I didn't know if Sheepfoot was replying to me or if he saw your post before he wrote his. Not a Case, but I've got a forklift that drips some converter/reverser oil somewhere, and every couple of years it will barely move, add a quart and it's good as new. Come to think of it, it could well be the same setup or very similar???
The way to check the unit, with the trans hot, park machine on level ground with parking brake set, place in 4th gear and in forward, slowly apply throttle to full, (be careful it does not drive off) with you. The rpm at stall should be around 2100 rpm. If it holds this the engine, converter, and shuttle are good. If the engine speed is 600 to 700 less than the 2100 rpm, could have a converter problem, if it was 200 to 300 rpm less than the rated 2100 rpm then you could be looking at a engine issue. Machines no load speed is around 2350 rpm. Do not stall the unit but a few seconds to get the rpm's for the test.
I defer to Sheepfoot. Just add the oil first.
I went back today and topped off the hydraulic fluid. The main hydraulics were really low. It took 4.5 gallons. I filled it up with the booms extended, and the power in the hoe increased greatly. It was a big sluggish before, but now the hoe will lift the machine off the ground even at low rpms. I didn't get your messages, so I did not check the shuttle the way you describe. I bought the machine for $10,800 because I do not see another one on the market around here, and I got word this morning that we are the only contractor bidding on an easement job, so I may be able to get the easement and make some money from the machine. Let's hope so... Does the machine use the same hydraulic reservoir for the drivetrain as well as the hoe/loader/stabilizers? Or is there a separate fill point for the trans? The machine HATES high-speed hills, and slight inclines in speeds 3 and 4. The engine stays at high rpm, undergoes no load, but the machine just slows and slows, and I can tell the clutches are just spinning inside. In speed 2 it has no problem (but it only goes 5mph...). Traffic loved me on the 45 minute drive home down two-lane roads during rush hour this afternoon... Gotta fix the rpm gauge, fuel gauge, oil temp gauge, lights, cab door, a couple leaks, etc. Once I get a few of these things ironed out I will be happy. Funny thing, his ad on the front of the machine said 580 K. Looking at the badges, it is actually a 580 Super E. After reading the ad I honestly never read the badges. I was kind of surprised to see that. When I realized, I went and looked up the differences really fast on my computer, but other than a few years and some minor changes, they seem very similar. Guess we'll see how she does...
24601, I have a 580SE and what your describing sounds pretty much normal. FWIW I rebuilt the shuttle myself with the help of the people on this site generously offering advise and encouragement. It's not as scary as it sounds and it was probably $500 or so in parts. The shuttle is separate from the rest of the hydraulics though. Take the RHS engine cover off and at the back of the engine just above the frame there's a cap/dipstick for the shuttle. Check the fluid hot and at idle in neutral, park brake set. Take a smell of it, you will know if it isn't right. Good luck with your SE, jimr
Jimr, I found that dipstick but I didn't know if it was also a fill point. The fluid is has browned a little, and has a bit of a burnt smell to it, but it's really not that bad. I think that the shuttle may have some life left in it, especially at low speeds. When these things break, do they generally just give out one day, or is it a very gradual decline until it just stops moving after weeks and weeks of getting slower? Thanks for the input.
Go ahead and change the oil and filter on the shuttle now, it may well extend it's life, and it sure won't hurt. It is worthwhile to buy the Case Hy-Tran Ultra oil, there are similar oils, but nothing meets the Case specs exactly. It is silly to chance shortening the life of those clutches for $25.
Their is a big difference in the main frame, backhoe, loader. The first k used the engine, shuttle, trans axle of the E. You will need a trans/convertor/hyd fluid, case tch, 303 oil, do not use straight hyd oil in the shuttle. The dipstick is over the starter for the shuttle, check warm, engine running, neutral, total system is around 8 qts. the shuttle itself holds around 2.25 qts. The hyd system is 12.5 gal and should be checked the loader on the ground, backhoe in the transport lock, stab cylinders up. The dipstick in the floor is the trans-rear end lube. I would check both planetaries along with the front housing oil on the front axle, you should also check the drop box for the 4wd, (it holds 1 pint of oil) and has a plug to screw out to check.
Sheepfoot, The Super E doesn't use Hy-Tran Ultra in the converter? When did they change to that, the Super K?
This is extremely helpful. Thank you.
When my shuttle went it was gradual process that was a sometimes go sometimes no. But it was just the forward clutch pack so I drove around backward for awhile until I spare the time. jimr
congrats on your purchase man
Mitch, the E and the first K's used the Case TCH fluid, the phase 3 trans was adopted in the later K's starting with JJG0020000 on 7/31/89, this used the Hy tran, there was some talk that it was a (IH) trans/rear design from the caseih merger, and was needed also for the 590 size backhoe build during that time
Ditto for my 580SE in 3rd or 4th gear. I don't know if it's "normal" as in "like new" but going up my steep driveway in 3rd gear it just slows down with no extra load on the engine. The heat up procedure for the oil is to set the parking brake in 4th gear and rev it up...It just sets & slips to heat the oil, but don't do this unless you HAVE to, because it might start leaking oil. My 580SE is 8 quarts of TCH fluid, Case Hy Tran Ultra, or John Deere Hy Gard. If you change it be sure to drain the torque converter also.
It's good to hear that other people have the same thing going on with their unit. At least it's not something that's unusual or uncommon. I suppose that makes it better? Hehe. I will try to get a better look at it this weekend when I'm not as busy with work. My dad said he will come over, and I'll have him read through your responses, especially the technical stuff, to make sure we get it all right with what fluids to change, etc. I also noticed this morning that one of the back tires is pretty low, so maybe that is dragging it down a bit also. I will go through the machine this weekend to see if I can't correct some of these little problems. I appreciate the info. If there's anything else you think I should look at, I'm all ears. Anybody know the best resource for manuals?