So I bartered the use of a 1990 Case 580K 2 summers ago for some carpentry work I did from a buddy. About 16 hours of running time in, the motor locked up. I ended up buying the machine for about the price of scrap and set to finding a replacement motor (dropped a valve, took out piston, damaged head). I stumbled upon a factory reman Cummins that was NOS on a shelf for a good price. I should add the backhoe is at my camp 2 hours away from my house on 14 acres in the middle of the woods. 5 friends of mine offered to head up for a weekend away, drink beer, and install the engine....and drink beer! Install went very well. Looked like a backwoods NASCAR pit. Everyone brought whatever tools they thought we would need and backed the trucks up around the hoe. Ran air down and electric 150' from the house. Install was done in a long day and it would fire on ether, but no fuel flow through the reman injector pump. The motor was reman, factory tested, then sat in a warehouse for around 6 years on the original shipping frame. Thepumpguysc from here, Mike, was awesome offering insight on the pump. Tried cleaning what I could, but ended up with Mike's guidance getting the old pump installed on the new motor and timed, bleed, and it fired and ran great. Plan is to send the reman pump to Mike in the future for a cleaning.
Got a bunch of work done last summer, but this backhoe lived a tough life of loading salt/sand in New England winters and the floor was a mess of patches zip screwed together. This spring, I pulled the mats and started removing the mess. What I was looking at made me want to tape it back together! I'm in too deep too deep, so I pulled the interior out, and started cutting and grinding and got it to the point I could make some 1/4" plywood floor templates to take home to my shop.
I got a couple sheets of steel and started laying out the rear floor section first. I added 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/8" angle on the sides and 1 1/2" x 1/8 flat stock to form the lip for the access panel. I was able to salvage the radiused back section and welded that to the bottom as well. Then I laid out the front section and cut that out. Next will be the build up of the bottom of this and then head back to the machine (2 hours away) to prep the frame for paint and the install.
I wondered what happened to ya.. I saw "Jweir" & said to myself, "why does that name sound familiar"?? Glad your back at it.. good luck..
Thanks, The machine is running great. Probably a dozen hours on the new motor. Was already thinking I'd have sent the pump to you, but this Covid thing has hit my business a little so it will have to wait a bit. Trying to tackle the rest of the machine on the cheap for right now....although things on old machines add up quick and are rarely cheap! Hope business is going OK for you.
Yeah Man.. business has been great, overwhelming at times.!! With everyone staying home, they all decided to work on their tractors.!! I had 2 customers at the same time on Sunday who wanted to wait on their rebuild.!!! I hadta send the 2nd one away.. 1 pump rebuild on a SUNDAY is enough.. luckily he understood & left the pump w me.. lol
Nice write up. I am working on my older Cat hoe. Just finished repacking the last 2 cylinders and will install those and the last 2 hoses on Tuesday. I am afraid my floor will look like yours. The seat base wobbles but I have not cleaned out the cab and pulled up the rubber mats. I am going through the machine one step at a time. I understand the whole long distance thing. Mine is at my brother auto shop 1 hour away. Forget one part and the day is ruined. I got the machine for less than half price for similar year/hours/condition. It ran and everything seemed to work except the brakes. Not looking forward to tackling that project. The fuel line from the tank to the pump is rusted and I need to drop the tank and install the new line. That is next on my agenda. What did you use to treat the rust?
So far I've been attacking the rust with a 4 1/2" cut off wheel and flap disks. Cutting out most of the rusted mess. Plan is to wire wheel the frame, hit with rust converter (Permatex I think is what I bought) then PPG Omni epoxy prime and PPG Deltron single stage top coat. I was lucky with the Case that the seat mount is very solid. It is 1/2" plate on a heavy crossmember.....about the only thing that was solid on my floor!
I will wire wheel, use a flap disk and then use POR15 system to treat and paint the rust. I have used the stuff in the past and it works good. Do NOT get it on your skin. It will not come off.
POR15 goes right through Carhart pants into your skin....did that on my Jeep frame....looked like a crazy tattoo. You need a special primer of that though or prime before it dries I think, correct?
POR15 recommends using their degreaser and metal prep after removing loose rust and before painting. I used their product back in the 80s when the instructions were to remove loose rust and dirt. Then paint. They only had the one product back then. The stuff held up for 10 years before I sold the car I used it on. Once I get to that part of my project I can decide how to fix things. I am concerned with making the machine 100% in respect to usability. I am not restoring it for shows just want it to last me a number of years. I expect the floor to be a mess like yours. The seat wobbles and I assume, but have not looked close, that the mounting is all rusted. I am sure some welding is in order.
Edgephoto, That's where I'm at too. This is in no way a show restoration. It is a 30 year old machine to use at my camp on a private road for a multitude of projects. I need it solid and reliable.....not falling through the floor is an added benefit!! hehe....I do like to fix things up, and probably am going to make it a lot nicer than it has to be, but a like a challenge.
I am the same. I usually fix things and make them nicer than needed. I like everything to work. My machine is a 1989 or so Cat 426. Paint is faded and she has rust on the cab but other than one bad cylinder I knew about when I bought it she is in functional shape. I am rebuilding all the cylinder and replacing all the hoses. Do not want to have to deal with this once I get her moved to my land. I am going to build a new house. Once I get that completed I will have a shop I can park her in and I might get ambitious and make her more pretty. For now I need her reliable.
Maybe it's the angle of the picture, but did you guys install the engine on a hill? Field install is impressive regardless. From the looks of it seems to be a nice machine and only getting nicer. Nice work on the floor. Can't wait to see your progress.
Boone, it was flat ground about 150' from my camp in the middle of 50 acres of woods. 20 min ride to nearest NAPA, 30 min to other supply house (each way). A lot could have gone wrong with missing tools, etc. but we lucked out. 5 different sets of tools came with friends, son, and brother. Was actually a lot of fun. Brought an engine lift and have an old Hough H30 loader up there to help move engines around.
So, I finally got up to Maine to work on the floor of the backhoe. The original floor was welded to the support rails. I had no interest in trying to weld upside down around the machinery, so I welded 1/8" plates across the frame then plug welded the floor pans down through 3/8" holes. I coated tops with weld through primer before installing the pans. I fit the rear section in one piece but the front had to go in 2 pieces.
I ran out of shielding gas for the MIG, but was able to finish tacking the front pans in. I drilled and fit the removable access panels. I welded the nuts underneath before painting. Plan is to finish welding, prep the weld areas and touch up the paint to avoid rust.....not because I'm making a show tractor! Next trip up I'll try to tackle the fenders. The right one I got for $20 from a burnt machine and rebuilt (my original one was toast). The left one just needs extensions replaced along the bottom flange. I plan to bolt these through the floor with a rubber caulking to seal the joint from moisture.
So I don't think I posted the rebuild of my storage box/step yet. Like most of my machine, it worked, but was in tough shape. There was no bottom, little front and some holes in the side. In addition, the stirrup step is fine climbing into the machine, but muddy boot stepping out took a toll on my shin last year so it needed an improvement. I cut a patch out of an old headboard from a dump truck. It had a good radiused bend for the front of the repair. I made a cardboard template of the front/bottom andI dusted the template with white paint to show on the dark green paint.
I made a few patches to the sides and welded the new floor/front on. I also salvaged an old step of a Zamboni and fit that over the old step and welded in place. Epoxy prime and Case "Power tan" paint followed. Installation next time back at work on machine.
Nice work. You are inspiring me. I need to do some rust repair to my Cat. Just handling other stuff first but getting closer to that project .
Be careful, it's a slippery slope once you start....hehe!
I've had a 580K 14 years now. It looked pretty good when I bought it. These days I look at it I see a less than pretty hoe. It didn't help the appearance when youngest son failed to park the dump truck out of the road, had an idiot passenger standing on the step, with the door open. You guessed it. He ran into the truck. He was good about it, offered to unbolt it & run over it to flatten it out. I just built a thumb, that is sweet! I've got a hundred other projects to do, but it needs a facelift. I HATE floor mats! Mine had some sort of organic mat under the rubber floor mat.
Willie, I wish mine looked as good as yours! That thumb project is on my short wish list.....once I get mine back together and finish the rebuild. That probably won't be until next spring of later in the fall. I feel for you with the door, I didn't post the picture of my grinding the frame to weld the other day and a piece hitting the curved rear window and it exploding into a million pieces on me. I wan't to throw the grinder through the other! One more expense down the road. I definitely will fix that after as I need to have my machines enclosed before the fall....no shoveling snow out of the cab.
Mine lives indoors between snowstorms, but does plow snow.
Well, finally got some progress that's worth posting. A long hot 3 day weekend and I managed to get my replacement fender hung. It was rough when I got it, but much better than mine. I covered all my weld seams on the inner fender sides with fiberglass to keep moisture from catching in them and causing early rusting.
We repaired the lower 6" on the other fender as well and welded repairs on the canopy frame at each door opening.
We finished the weekend by prepping and painting the cab black. The left door is the remaining body work and the cab will be done.....Oh and the left rear glass I shattered with slag off my grinder!
So I haven't updated here in a while. Winding down on body work to the cab. The Left door was a mess and had a piece of plywood covering the lower section. I got a donor door from a burnt machine that was distorted up high, but in great shape on the bottom. I cut out the old, and welding in a new section.....all you talented guys with body shop experience.....no need to look!
I wish it went as smooth as that removing the door. The pins/bolts were a PIA! We ended up cutting them and driving the frozen halfs out. Fortunately, the lower one in the machine side of the lower hinge came out with some heat, a punch, and a 5 lb hammer. The upper hinge of the door had a piece frozen in it that wouldn't budge. We heated several times with cooling between, soaked in a bath of penetrating oil (was a depression in one end but it wouldn't budge. We ended up drilling the 3/8" hole and some how it didn't drift and came right out strait through the bottom. We cleaned up the old window adhesive, worked on the rust and welds a bit then shot with paint. After that we got the rear quarter window (was taken out with slag off my grinder working on the floor) replacement glued in. First time using 3M polyurethane window adhesive, but went well. We also finally installed the side step I rebuilt this summer.
With the wheels finally back on, and off the blocks, it's starting to look like a machine that might actually do some work. We put much on the dash and interior parts back in and started cleaning up wiring connections. Still have no tach, so have to see what's going on with that. Also, anyone with one of these might be able to tell me, how many idiot lights come on when you turn the ignition key on before it starts? Right now I just have Voltage, no oil or temp warning lights. Not sure if that means they don't work or not. Going to try to ground out the sensors and see if that trips them. Just don't want to burn down my new motor. Plan is to finish tracking wiring, do some light patching to the bucket, install new teeth on the hoe and do some digging projects before winter. Next spring, the hood will be worked, a few hydraulic cylinders resealed, and the loader and hoe painted.
Hey JWeir when I turn on my key my tach drops to zero stays at 1500 before I turn on my key for some reason then the oil pressure alarm buzzes and oil light and alternator light light up when it starts buzzer stops after about 1 or 2 seconds and lights go out hope this helps identical machine hope this helps
what paint are you using?
Thanks for that info. My tach is staying at 1500 and only alternator light comes on. I'm going to check oil pressure sensor/sending unit and alternator connections.
TnG, I've been shooting PPG omni epoxy primer and PPG Delfleet Essential single stage paint. I've been in no way looking for auto body quality finish in my tin work or paint, but been happy with the way this paint lays down, flashes quickly and covers.
[So I've been using the 580K a bit this fall. All has been great until the weeping dipper cylinder became a spraying leak. I used my engine lift to pull the cylinder and took to a local hydraulic shop for a reseal. I plan on rebuilding the other "weepers" myself but figured given the size and difficulty getting this one out I'd farm this one out.
I dropped the cylinder off and was told 1-2 weeks. 2 1/2 in I called and was told they were unable to get the gland nut off and they couldn't do anything else with it. Being replacement ios over $1500 I figured I'd have a go at it first. I figured I needed a secure way to hold the cylinder on my bench so I turned a piece of 1 1/8" steel rod down and welded it to a 3/8" plate to clamp to my bench. Then I turned an aluminum bushing to fit the steel rod and inside the bore of the cylinder.
I used the peening method described by other here (forgive me for not given credit to those who posted, but I owe you HUGE!). I bought a spanner and used a bar on a 3/4' drive socket and was able to get the gland off after a few days of soaking in penetrating oil.
Now the problem is the nut on the rod. I bought a 2 3/16" impact socket to fit. A bar on the ratchet didn't move it (was afraid ratchet was going to break), a 1500 ft/lb impact gun wouldn't budge it. I've read some heat the head cherry red (in case locktite was used), I believe I can rent a torque multiplier, and I thought about a 36" pipe wrench on the socket with a bar. Thoughts from anyone who has tackled this would be appreciated.
They are almost impossible. After hours on the gland nut, Seth & I got down to the piston bolt. We tried here, couldn't budge it. We took it to a friend who has a 1" air impact wrench. We clattered on it much of an hour. I called a hydraulic shop next state, I have used before. "Sure, bring it down!" After they worked on it an hour, the truth came out. The owner I had dealt with called it quits. He sold the business to a former employee, but took all the tools with him. New owner had broken a few Chinese sockets on it. I then called my Case dealer two states away. I was told "Get it here by 4:00. We'll do it while you wait. At 6:00 PM I was on my way home with a fresh cylinder. Yours is recessed into the piston. You have no choice but use a socket. Now you have to use hydraulics to start it. It is likely there is Loctite on it. Heat will help, don't get carried away. 300 degrees might do it. A gentle heat soak with a weed burner torch I'd try. Check your heat with an infrared thermometer. Don't go higher than necessary. DO NOT HEAT THE BOLT HEAD! Slowly heat the piston There are hundreds of ways to use force. Most are dangerous. I'd try a loader bucket on the wrench. I urge you to not do that, it's dangerous. I was once in a hydraulic shop. The owner had built spud wrenches on a bandsaw. He used a hydraulic cylinder on a track with cup on one end to power the spud wrenches. Old time mechanics used a 12 LB hammer to shock the spud wrenches.
My favorite way is a 36 inch pipe wrench on the socket. A length of pipe on the handle (4 foot min.) then a track bar in it. Once in a while a pipe extension on the track bar. Never have heated a bolt yet. Several good hits on the bolt head with a 2 lb hammer helps to. Willie59 gets all of the credit for the peening method and also is the inventor of the famous suck bucket.
Suck bucket? I'm reluctant to ask.
Be afraid! Be very afraid! Save yourself! LOL
Most likely that bolt has red Loctite on it. It is permanent and they are not kidding. I have seen threads pulled out because the red loctite held and the metal didn't. You need to heat the Loctite to 500 degrees F. You will need to heat the rod and apply some heat to the head of the bolt too. Once you get it hot enough quickly put the socket on the bolt and using a long pipe on the ratchet break it free. Use a 3/4 or 1" drive socket and ratchet or breaker bar. You will break a 1/2" drive like it is made of glass. Also always make sure to clear the area so if something breaks and you go flying you don't get injured or impaled on something. https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-loctite-2620.html
Willie59, if you are the source of the peening method, I'm owe you huge so far. When the shop couldn't separate the gland I thought it was done. I was shocked when I was in the shop at 0600, started welding my jig and by 0900 i was sipping my second cup of coffee and it was apart. So I think I'll try the pipe wrench method with a bar as Tinkerer suggested and hopefully I won't need a new cylinder like you Willie. I also am hesitant to ask about the suck bucket!
Edgephoto, any idea how far that bolt goes down the rod? I should heat below the piston?
Just heat the head of the bolt with a cutting or rose tip - till a little more than dull red. Allow the heat to transfer no longer than a minute. You will need a 1" drive sliding T bar & socket to fit (not a 3/4"dr socket with reducer/adaptor) of reputable quality (I use Koken) with at least 6' of pipe - at the ready & preferably a 100-140kg gorilla swinging off the end of it - it will come. Goes without saying - you need a serious anchor point for doing this. Oh, @willie59 's suck bucket story is HERE .
Alrman, thanks for the input and the link to Willy59's suck bucket....that's ingenious!
No new cylinder, they repacked it. I wasn't in the shop to see it loosened. Most hydraulic shops use some form of hydraulic powered wrench to back off the piston bolt.
Double Post
On second thought, heating the bolt head seems a great idea, but I might take the precaution of replacing it afterward.
Thanks for the link alrman. Nice how to guide in it. It was 11 years ago that Willie59 posted how to make his ingenious suck bucket. Here is a link to the first suck bucket description from the inventor of it. HeavyEquipmentForums
Airman covered it pretty good. If you only have 3/4" drive socket and breaker bar or ratchet that should work. 1" drive is better but expensive. Don't waste your time with air operated impact. You will need muscle for this. Not sure how long the bolt is but probably 3" or so. You can heat the rod too then hit the bolt head. Do not get it glowing red as you will remove the heat treating and you will need to replace it. Make sure to use a couple drops of Red Loctite when reassembling. You do not need to cover the bolt in Loctite, just a couple drops on the threads is enough.
That piston retaining bolt is 1.5" UNF with a 2 1/4" head. They are seriouly tight. 3/4" drive won't talk to it sternly enough. Re heating the head of the bolt dull red - probably done hundreds of them over 40yrs - never replaced one, never had a problem with any cylinder afterwards.
All I think of is a wood splitter I built in 1982? I used everything cheap I could. Diddier was a popular splitter at the time. My brother in law was an employee at a dealer. Warranty parts were saved until a "REP" came, looked & signed off. After that they were scrapped......sometimes. Mine was sold to me for $25. I cut off the butt, and welded in a new one. It worked fine 36 years, then let go. I guess I just won your argument for you. Please disregard my previous post.
I might rent a torque multipier. $55 locally. Case torque spec is 2443-2841 ft/lbs....that's crazy. Even with a 4:1 multiplier, thats 600 ft/lbs without mechanical loss in the planetary assembly. Even if I get apart how critical is it that I get all that back again? I suppose if I use a 6' bar to break it free and use the same bar to put it back together.....
2800 ft lbs means with a 6 foot pipe you need to produce 467 lbs of force. With a 4:1 multiplier you have a good chance. Make sure Loctite is melted
I suspect that explains the use of red Locktite. I did one Two weekends ago, a Extend A Hoe extension cylinder. I used Locktite, A 6' cheater, & my ample fat as$ to tighten.
Thanks for the encouraging words....I'll report back on the progress.
Case manual specifies 242 Loctite (blue) for the cap screw.
I ended up taking the piston back to the hydraulic shop. The owner was impressed that the "Willie59" peening method removed the gland. The shop had to apply 2600lb of force to get the cap screw out of the rod after heating the locktite. They resealed and reassembled and made up replacement lines for it. I repainted, reinstalled and it is working great. Last week it was below freezing and the machine hadn't run in over a month. I plugged in the block heater for a couple hours and when I hit the starter it fired quicker than my gas pickup. Project will slow down for the winter, but wiring gremlins, hood bodywork, and front bucket reskin will commence in the spring.
I got the nut off the dipper cylinder as others did without heat. Good to know about hard whacks to bolt head, will try that on next one. My method is similar to others: -lay rod on protected ground with a solid bar thru the eyelet, roll car or truck on other of bar -put socket on nut, then big cast iron pipe (36”or bigger) wrench around socket or around an extension or adapter etc - then various sized, strong pipes to get out to 11’ -be nimble in case it suddenly comes loose or wrench slips off etc the bolt on the dipper cylinder is on at 1500-2000 ft lbs of torque. 200lbs person pulling down on 10’ bar will give 2000 ft/lbs and most likely loosen the nut. Do the reverse to put it back on. That’s what I did. I’m curious what you paid to have the shop remove the nut and does that include putting it back on at spec torque?
Birdseye, I bought the seals for the gland. The shop charged me $150 to pop the bolt, install the seals, install new grease seals on the eyes (they supplied), install new zerk fittings (they supplied) and reassemble. It was going to cost me $75 to rent a torque multiplier the way I planned on tackling it (which would have required a $40+/- 1" to 3/4" adaptor for my 3/4' socket). I was happy to pay that and have it done. Before I was able to peen the gland nut off, I was looking at $1600-ish for a new cylinder. I also had them make up the 2 new lines for me.....I think they were around $100. I was psyched to just be able to get it painted and reinstalled.
I would like to know where you took it. I've done business with shops in VT, NH, & NY. Typical wait time is 5 weeks, extreme cases, I've waited months, then given up.
Jweir, sorry I’m a bit thick and have a few questions: I missed why you took the whole cylinder off the machine without loosening the gland nut. Isn’t it easier with the cylinder firmly in place on the machine to put the gland nut wrench on with an extension pipe if necessary and loosen the gland nut? Was the cylinder removed specifically for painting? If not , isn’t it easier to just remove the rod from the cylinder and leave the cylinder on the machine when repacking. I never remove the cylinder and was wondering why you did. Is the “peening method” you mention hitting the rod end bolt head with a hand sledge prior to removing it?
No it isn't. Go here to read about it from Willie59, the originator of the ingenious method. HeavyEquipmentForums
Birdseye, Tinkerer is spot on (he usually is!). Willie59 is the peening master here and I referred right to that thread for the technique. I removed the cylinder for 2 reasons. 1 it would have been tough to work on top of the boom with wrenches and as it turns out, impossible to get the gland nut off without peening around the whole circumference of the cylinder end. 2. because this cylinder is in a tough spot to work I figured I'd just pay to have this one resealed. It wasn't until the shop couldn't get the gland off that I took it back to my shop and "Willey59-ed" it. The paint was just because it was removed and the end was heated so the paint was burnt off.....plus I plan on painting the rest of this machine next spring. I plan to do the weeping stabilizer cylinders in place . Willie B, JPM Hydraulics in Lowell, handled the rebuild. Original estimated timeframe was 2 weeks. When I called him back and said I got it apart but wanted him to handle the rod bolt/rebuild he turned it around in 3 days with new lines. Family shop and great guys.
Thank you. I've got a few in need right now.
Great info. I’m in the process of repacking a stabilizer cylinder and ran into the rod bolt issue. I tried a 1 7/8” socket, ¾ drive breaker bar, 6’ pipe for cheater and two large buddies to help but it wouldn’t budge. I broke a ½ Craftsman breaker bar last year and was concerned I’d break this one. Should I use a pipe wrench on the socket instead of the breaker bar?
If it has red Locktite on it a little heat is needed. I always use a 24" pipe wrench on the socket and a track bar in a pipe over the handle of the pipe wrench. I never apply loctite on reassembly. I don't think it is needed on a properly torqued rod bolt.
At 1300-1600 ft-lbs I can't imagine needing loctite but maybe it's insurance in case the bolts not properly torqued. My manual calls for blue 243 which wouldn't be a problem.
I've broke a few craftsman breaker bars on them but I found a solid shaft breaker bar with a 12' snipe works best for me.
I haven't tried it yet. Suggestion is make an 18" long triangle of 1" thick stock Burn a hole sized for an impact socket to slip in & weld it there. Use a sledge hammer to hit the wrench. I was once in a one man shop. He had a rig he had built for the purpose. Homemade wrenches were pushed with another hydraulic cylinder.
Several different members have posted that they have encountered red Locktite on rod bolts. I have used Blue Locktite many times, never on cylinder rods. Blue is easy to break loose. The last cylinder I resealed required a 36" inch pipe wrench after I bent the handle on my 24" wrench.
Thanks for all the info. While I've performed most of my mechanical work for over 40 years, I'm relatively new to the big iron. I took the disassembled stabilizer cylinder to a local hydraulics shop. Their rate is $75/hr with a two hour minimum. Told me they should be able to break the nut, and assemble/test the cylinder with my kit for $150. We'll see how that works out. I plan to reseal the other stabilizer cylinder next and would like to do it all myself. The shop does lot of hydraulic service for the towboat shops. I'm going to check them out for my day job. We have a hydraulic truck dumper which has two large compound cylinders. It tilts a fully loaded semi-truck almost straight up. We also have several 33ci hydraulic motors which are about 20HP. I have them rebuilt occasionaly because the lead time is so long on new ones.
The shop ended up charging me $220 but I installed the cylinder it and it doesn't leak.