Hi there - I have a 580k case with a lot of oil covering the inside of my front wheel. I am assuming this is a faulty seal coming from the planetary gears. I have 3 questions 1) Is there any other reasons besides a faulty seal that i would see a lot of oil on the inside of the wheel well ? 2) According to the service book - It looks like the seal is a really a liquid "form in place material" and not a normal paper or cork seal. If this is the case, can you recommend a good product for the "form in place" gasket. 3) While I have this apart - is there anything else you would recommend i inspect/replace ? Thx Ron
The seal circled in the first image is what is leaking, and circled in the second image is a replaceable wear ring. The wear ring only needs replaced if damaged. What you referred to above is sealant used on the mating, machined, flanges, and aren't the source of your leak.
It could be the seal @heymccall has shown OR it could indeed be the flange on the hub. I have seen many of these flanges leak, particularly after the wheel was removed for a puncture repair. Any good quality RTV silicone is ok to use. You will need to give the insides of the hub a good clean with fuel of kerosene to stop the oil oozing out of it. Important to assemble those flanges clean & dry for the RTV to work effectively. TIP - 2x wheel studs have flanges on them to retain the cover.
Ive also seen the lower trunnion cap bearing break out and let the weight of the front end bear down on the axle and rip the axle seal out over time. You really need to make sure EXACTLY where the oil is coming from before you start buying parts..
Thanks @heymccall , @alrman and @Vetech63 for your replies. Much appreciated. Looks like my first step will be to take this apart to understand root cause....
@heymccall Just looking at my service manual and while it has the exploded diagram you provided it does not detail how to remove. I am assuming that I take off wheel and start dismantling from the outside until everything comes off. Is there anything I need to be aware of in the removal process. Thx Ron
Attached are pics of the procedure, after I think 20 they jump because there is no need to disassemble ring gear or planetaries.
Next 4 pics. Assemble
https://cdn.minnpar.com/partbooks/C...S/CASE 580SK SERVICE MANUAL/Case 580SK SM.pdf Complete manual free for down load from Minnpar
Thanks @gggraham - this is great! Much appreciated. Ron
Okay - a somewhat successful weekend in that I was able to disassemble the planetary gears - although taking stuff apart is always easier than putting back together for me! When i look at the ring pointed out by @heymccall (circled ring #1 above) and the wear ring (circled ring #2 above) to me they look "fine" but in all honesty I'm not really sure what I am looking for. I have taken some pictures of the wear ring to see if anyone can tell it needs replacing. Also, in the manual it says to use a chisel to cut out the wear ring (if it needs replacing)....I'm wondering then how a new one gets fitted if it requires cutting out the old one ???
#1 is a lip seal, is it not? The wear ring just needs buffed a bit using scotchbrite or similar. If the wear ring has a noticeable groove, it is to be replaced. From here https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw121-JMNUSjIePRZjOEqulb
Thanks @heymccall I'll take some every cloth to the ring....unrelated, (as you seem to know your way around the machine exceptionally well) if you happen to know anything about removing steering cylinder from a 580k 4WD i'd appreciate any insight ( HeavyEquipmentForums ) . Thanks again. Ron
Side note....the above trailer axle wear ring procedure shows an Oring under the wear ring. There is no Oring on your hub. And, typically, you'll hit it just enough to dent it, then do that in 3 or 4 more spots and the ring will come off. Each dent will marginally stretch the ring. After 4 or 5 dents, they usually fall off with just your fingers. But, again, that wear ring looks good enough that a light buff is all that's needed.
I believe that if you purchase a new seal from CNH, you will need to remove the wear ring & the new seal will sit directly on the spindle parent material. The new seals are a rotating type, similar to truck hub seals, so they no longer wear the housing.
Thanks @arlman - good to know. When sealing the casing does anyone have recommendation on best RTV to use. In my google searching it would appear that the Ultra Black Permatex sealant (which seems to be designed for maximum oil resistance) seems to be the best. Thx Ron
@heymccall I just want to confirm the seal you pointed out above in diagram #1. I thought at first it was a metal seal but when i took apart the wheel i see what looks to be a rubber seal as pictured below. Assuming this is the seal that needs replacing ?
So i received my seal today. I thought i was going to get just a rubber seal which would replace the rubber seal pointed to in the picture above. But what i got was a steel ring with a rubber seal encased. So i'm thinking that the seal is really a combination steel ring/rubber seal as 1 unit and that i need to remove the existing steel ring/rubber seal unit and replace. So want to confirm this is the case (and that i didn't just order the wrong part) and if so....how best to remove the existing seal ?
That is the seal. The rubber is bonded to the metal. Pull the old metal piece out and put the new seal in. I'd guess you should take a look on youtube maybe to find some instructions as you've never seen a seal before. Joe H Oh, you asked how to get it out. From the back, just use an old screwdriver or similar and tap it, it will come out. (Ignore the warning on the screwdriver to NEVER use as a chisel or pry bar)
Thanks Joe - yeah i've never seen a seal in heavy equipment. So.....trying to insert the new oil seal - its not going in easy as expected. I'm using a piece of wood and then tapping the wood (so as to not dent the ring) although when i get the seal flush with the hub I'm going to have to use something else. Before i push the seal in any further just want to get some feedback this is the right way method - also - suggestions when i can't use the board.....i could cut the wood so it fits inside so i can insert the ring further inside the hub.....just don't want to damage anything....
A steel plate would be a much better option. The wood absorbs too much of the shock from the hammer.
The wood will work until you get flush with the housing. You want it to go in evenly so move the wood around. And cutting it to fit in the housing will let you get it down to where it belongs. Bearing plate is what you need but don't have so the wood will do. I think HF sells a cheap set of bearing plates, cheap https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=bearing race and seal driver and not so cheap https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=bearing installer Tinkerer, my opinion, seals are a tap tap tap, not a bang bang bang. softly , softly , catchee monkey
Hi guys - so over the winter I puchased the seal and "banged" it in place. This weekend I am up at the cottage trying to install the wheel after installing the seal. I'm having a real hard time getting the planetary casing to mount properly on the wheel hub. Its a tad cold here (40F) so the rubber seal is a bit stiff but i cannot seem to get the hub to snug itself up to the flange. I have about a 1/2" gap. I've tighten the 8 nuts as much as I can hoping it would suck the hub closer to the flange but it didn't budge. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get new seal tight to the flange ? would it help if i put the backhoe in gear and rotate the tire by putting the unit in Drive/Forward ? Or soak the planetary unit in hot water to soften the seal ??? I've tried banging it with a sledge hammer with a piece of 2x4 wood in between but it wouldn't budge. Any insight/help would be appreciated. Thx Ron
It's NOT the seal, you've got something wrong inside that's hitting. STOP pounding and take it back off. Something is out of place, something at least 1/2" thick. Joe H
The new seal is unitized, meaning that the old wear ring must be removed from the spindle... If you didn't remove it, nows the time. And, unitized oil seals are to oiled (lubed), before installation, on their docking surfaces.
Thx McCall - your guidance much appreciated - So the new seal is a different kind of seal than the old one ? If i remove the old wear ring from the spindle does a new wear ring need to be installed ? Or is it the case that the new seal because it is "unitized" doesn't require a wear ring? (what are the dimensions of the wear ring so i know what i'm looking for?) And also, how is the wear ring removed (without damaging the spindle)? I've attached a picture of the spindle and what I believe is the wear ring - please confirm this is the band that needs to be removed. Thx again Ron
Okay - I should have read the previous messages in my own thread (this is what happens when you get old and extend a repair job out over a winter). I think what Arlman indicated was that the wear ring needs to be removed (with a chisel) and then the new seals sit directly on the hub and don't require a wear ring. If that doesn't sound right to anyone let me know. Thx Ron
Hi guys - wish I could contribute back somehow - seems I'm always taking advice and never providing!! I very much appreciate everyone's insight. So.....I changed the seal and got the planetaries back together and today decided to take it for a spin. It was a depressing ride. I went about 20 feet and then the wheel locked up. I took the wheel off and opened up the plantery and there were bits of metal everywhere. So here is what it looked like happened (please refer to the numbered pictures attached)... It looks like one of the 8 bolts (see picture #3 and #5) that hold the planetary to the hub came loose and as the wheel rotated it sheared the "inner thrust pinion gear thrust washer" or covering of the bearings inside the planetary (part #13 on the exploded part diagram). See the picture of washer in picture #4 and #2 as well as the exposed bearings in picture #4. There were 3 bolts that l could loosen by hand even though I know I torqued these super tight when i was getting the hub to "suck" closer to the wheel. I don't know why these came loose and what i need to do differently. Any ideas ? So i'm hoping I can loosen the 3 hex nuts in picture #1 and replace the "thrust washer" that covers the bearings (anyone done this? any tips). Also, these hex nuts look rusted and I will just strip the hex nut - any suggestions ? Will I have to drill these out ? So in summary I have 2 questions. 1. Why did the bolts become loose ? 2. How to remove the hex nuts on the cover plate ? Thanks again guys
Just guessing, the bolts came loose because you had something jammed up in there. The bolts were never tight because it was not all the way together. When you drove it whatever was jammed up came loose and then all the bolts were loose. My opinion is you are in way over your head trying to do something like this. Not trying to hurt your feeling but the questions you've asked indicate you have zero familiarity with things like this and without someone there showing you what's going on you're making mistakes. You may be lucky and haven't damaged it beyond salvage, but what you really need is someone who knows what they're doing to have a look at it. Sorry, Joe H
Thanks Joe for your honesty. You are right I in that I have little familiarity but just trying to learn (from my mistakes) and with the help of this forum. I'm not sure what would be jammed - its not like there were extra pieces. The only issue I ran into was the new seal didn't require a wear ring so when I didn't take off the original wear ring obviously there was a problem fitting the new seal on (Thx McCall for this insight) - otherwise everything fitted back together nicely. Maybe i didn't torque one of the nuts...or my last torque on one of the nuts moved the hub just a fraction causing the other 3 nuts to be come loose. That's the only thing I can think of....
Looks like no guesses from the crowd, did you find anything to explain how this happened? Joe H
Hey Joe - Thanks for asking. I did go into the case dealer and talked to a mechanic. He said likely I didn't have all the nuts torqued to 120 which is what he said it called for. He said he sometimes uses loctite but moslty not - said if its torqued tight they should not backoff. I did not have my breaker bar when i torqued these nuts and I also think when I torqued the final nut I did not go back around the circle to make sure all were tight. Anyway, I was able to get the hex screws of the face plate by heating them red hot with an oxy-acetylene torch (the MAP torch does not heat enough) and then use an impact socket driver (the kind you hit with a hammer) and then they popped out. So i have all the gears out and just waiting on parts. Will update when i put back together. Hopefully others will learn from my mistakes!
I think the reason you didn't get any replies as to what caused the damage is that none of us have experienced a failure like you had. I would guess very few Case tech's probably have only seen it rarely. I would suggest using Blue Lok-Tite and use a known to be accurate torque wrench. Torque each bolt at least twice beore the Lok-Tite cures. Keep us updated.
Sorry, not possible. You said earlier you drove it 20 feet, no way in hell those bolts loosened up in just 20'. The only way they are loose is they weren't tight because something was jammed up in there. Locktite ain't gonna fix that. Joe H
Hi Joe - you are right. It was probably more like 50 feet. I backed up 15 feet to turn around and went about 35 feet forward so yeah 20 feet probably understated but it was not a huge distance. I agree it doesn't make any sense unless the bolt was not in at all - but it was definitely tight - perhaps not 120 ft/lbs but i was tighten each one with socket wrench pretty good. But I agree with you that something is not right for the bolts to have come loose so fast. I've gone over the part diagram several times and the only thing I don't recall is my placement of the washer #9 on the diagram. I think the washer has to fit or lock into something and I don't recall that. I bought an extra one in case I somehow lost it. I have the planetary all back together now with new thrust washers on both sides of the gear and new seals on the shaft pins. I will probably take the hub off before putting the planetary back on just to make sure I don't have so have something jammed as you say and everything in the right order. Thx Ron
When you reassemble it, it goes together ALL the way without needing to tighten the bolts to force it in. If you can't get it together without forcing it something is not right. Joe H
Do you have the service manual ? There are very specific procedures that must be followed while disassembling and reassembling the planetarys. It shows how to get those cap screws out that you referred to. THEY HAVE TO BE PUT BACK IN THE HOLE THAT THEY CAME OUT OF ! Did you torque the bearing nut properly ?
Okay - so i took out the inner planetary wheel (which again did not come out easy) and discovered that the plate that holds the 8 bolts is bent which is why it didn't go in easy as Joe suggested. I could see marks on the hub from the bolts used to extract the gears which suggested a previous owner had this apart. With the plate bent it meant the sleeves where on an angle explaining why I had to really torque the 8 bolts to get the gears to snug up to the hub when putting back together. I suspect this might also be why the whole the unit ended up leaking. So i will be order this part today - i suspect it won't be cheap. I attached a picture of the plate and the 8 sleeves but its hard to see the angle of the sleeves or the bent plate. Thanks for everyone's help.