Hello, Had the digger for 14 years, just put it on sale, people coming to view today and tomorrow, was just driving it to collect the other buckets, it had been running fine for several minutes and then suddenly a screaming came from the engine. It was the starter motor, never happened before. To get it to stop I disconnected the battery. Left it for 10 minutes, disconnected the solenoid supply, reconnected the battery, nothing, checked voltage on solenoid supply, seemed to be about 0.3 volts. Reconnected the solenoid, turned starter switch, screaming starter again, pinion not connecting with flywheel. I changed the relay last year but even with it removed the starter kept running. I await any knowledgeable suggestions, I am hoping if I can remove the starter, maybe the solenoid has stuck leaving the pinion protruding, maybe it might be encouraged back.
Even my teeth look better than that, most likely worn while the engine was running, but why did the starter engage while the engine had already been running for several minutes. I will have to get a new starter, but will the same happen to that.
Check the ignition switch. It may be defective and is continuing to send voltage to the solenoid after you release it from the start position. More often, they stick in the start position. Not too uncommon to have that happen. Check the all of teeth on the flywheel ring gear. They may (probably) be badly damaged to.
Have seen the solenoid control wire ( S-Terminal ) grounding onto positive cable before and the starter would kick out. Good place to look is right around the solenoid or around the relay that powers it for a control wire grounding ( rubbed through ) to live power. Maybe it is something else. Maybe someone else will chime in. Simon C
I checked the cable from the relay, could not see it grounding anywhere, I do not have a circuit diagram of the starter connections, I changed the starter switch a few years ago. I am crapping myself about the starter ring gear because if the teeth are too badly damaged, then the digger is scrap, there is no way I can afford to have the digger split and the ring gear changed. Not a happy bunny at the moment. It was so close to being sold.
I have had a starter engage while engine running before and it usually doesn’t damage the ring gear too bad at all. Not sure if it’s because it spinning so much faster than the bendix can or not and the ring gear overruns it. It sounds like you had the ignition circuit short to ground somewhere and that welded the starter solenoid contacts. I would expect a new starter or repair the one that shorted. It shouldn’t be to hard to put another plunger and contacts in and replace the bendix gear. Just make sure the problem didn’t originate in the starter coil.
I have cleaned up all the teeth on a ring gear with a die grinder and it worked okay afterwards. Had a sharp point carbide on it and yes it took me 4 hours, but did not split machine. Simon C
That sounds like a hell of a challenge, working through the starter hole. See what happens when the new starter arrives.
Sometimes there is only 6-10 teeth in need of fix, sometimes less sometimes more. Simon C
I am concerned I let the engine run too long, I did not realise what the problem was. The front edges of the ring gear feel sharp, so must have folded over a bit, whether too much or not I will have to wait until the new starter is delivered. I do not know what grinder you mean, and how do you turn the engine over to get to all the teeth. If you remove the steel panel below the radiator grill, can you get to the crankshaft and turn it with a socket attached to a breaker bar?
The hydraulic pump assembly will be in the way of putting a socket on the crankshaft. Be very certain the fuel is shut off so it cannot start when you turn it. I wouldn't be too concerned about the sharp edges on the ring gear teeth. If you do need to purchase a new ring gear it may come with beveled edges. That helps the Bendix gear to engage with it. There is no practical way to split a 580K. I would remove the engine if I were replacing your ring-gear. The flex plate will need a careful inspection for cracks. Especially on an engine with a lot of hours on it.
Air die grinder made by Ingersoll Rand or Chicago Pneumatics, or Mac Tools or Snap on. Even some $40 cheapy brand ones will work but use a sharp carbide. Carbide will cost $20 - $40 and get what they call Diamond cut as they don't make slivers. With starter out any pry bar will turn engine over on ring gear teeth. Compression Engines do not start by turning over slowly. Fuel has to be sprayed into heated air to ignite and otherwise valves would be dangerous to set or adjust. But is good idea to shut off fuel so that it doesn't dribble onto pistons. Simon C
I take it that the die grinder is a right angle version, though there seems little room to get it through the hole and lined up, I expect it will require a small disc. Hope it will work without, new starter due tomorrow, we will see. Thank you for your help. My Mum was evacuated to Alberta during the war, she loved it but told me how cold it was in winter, you could not touch a metal door handle without gloves on or you might lose skin.
A carbide looks the same size as a wood pencil, with dull lead on end. Look it up. Disc is not the right tool. Simon C
Oh, I see, so a straight die grinder with a pencil point carbide tip, I suppose it might bounce a bit, I have seen them on the net. I hope I will not need it, thank you.
Well here we are, me again. Got the new starter. Meanwhile I had been looking at the electrics, I found that the previous owner had a radio fitted but instead of taking a feed from the fuse box, he had connected it to the ignition switch, he had removed the radio and the end of the cable was touching the chassis so I thought that this might have been the problem. I cut the wire down and made it electrically safe and started the tractor, after a few moments with the engine running, the starter turned on again. I rushed around the digger and pulled the solenoid cable off. I was surprised that with the ignition turned off the starter was still working, I had expected that with the ignition off it would have stopped. Can someone please advise me how I can check the starter switch, if it is not that, because the white cable which connects the starter disappears into the wiring loom I may just have to add a new cable from the switch to the starter, but should that not go through a relay?
Will the starter engage with just the key on? Not sure how you could have the relay for the starter circuit get voltage again after running. What happens if you start it up and immediately shut it off? Wondering if you have another power feed to the starter solenoid? This just happened out of the blue?
Had the digger for 14 years, never happened before. Started today with new starter, after a few seconds running the starter engaged again. Turned ignition off, starter kept running, had to run around the digger and pull the trigger cable off the solenoid before it stopped.
Remove the white wire from the solenoid and short across the starter posts to start the engine. Hook up a test light to the unhooked white wire.....if the light comes on without the ignition switch being in the start position, then there is possibly a short to power somewhere. You can leave the test light on the wire and start unplugging things like the switch or whatever until the light goes out. At least this will give you a direction to go without worrying about the starter reengaging a running engine.
Yes, that is what I thought. As there is always power to the ignition switch, it could be a short in there, that should be an easy fix, but I don't know how to test it. I thought I changed the starter relay a few years ago, but someone suggested that there was not a starter relay on this digger. It seems that I know nothing.
There is a definitely a starter relay in the 580K's. Take Vetech63's advice. The odds are quite high that either the ignition switch is defective or there is a short in wire harness that is causing your problem. It is unlikely but both of those possible causes could be the problem. I had similar problem a couple of times. The trigger wire was dead when the key was in the start position. It was the wire between the switch and the relay. I disconnected the OEM wire and made a new wire to replace it. I did not disturb the wire harness. I just ran the new wire along the side of it.
OK, well I started the engine by disconnecting the trigger cable and jumping between the solenoid and positive, and the engine started straight away. Checked power on trigger cable, 13+ volts, turned motor off checked power between red and white cables at the ignition switch, 13 volts, disconnected the plug from the ignition switch and checked again between red and white, still over 12v, so it seems it is not the ignition switch. Does this digger have to have a relay, or can I just run a new cable from the white position on the ignition switch directly to the starter solenoid?
You can run a new wire from the start side of yhe ignition switch to the starter solenoid post....just tape of both ends of the white wire.
I am not sure about the relay, I changed what I thought was the relay a few years ago, on the left hand side, low at the back of the engine, there is a white cable going from it but it disappears into the loom, other cables going from it including a red which goes to the power connection at the side of the starter, maybe another going to the winter diesel heater, long since disconnected.
I will have to go to work soon, I am a school bus driver, so will not be able to make any posts for a while, anyway thank you all for your help.
Unplug 1 relay at a time and see if your uncommanded power disappears
My last post is missing. I am a school bus driver and have to go to work, will not be able to post for a while. What I thought was the starter relay low at the back of the engine on the left side, has 4 wires, white, red, blue and green. Blue and green disappear into the harness, white goes to diesel heater, red goes to positive on the side of the starter. Thank you all for your valuable help, regards, Michael
Very good advice and an excellent way to diagnose. Wanted to mention that when I install a Starter I always rotate the starter a hair away from the flywheel to prevent the bendix from staying hung up. Have seen this a few times in my life. Simon C
I'm thinking you may have had a mouse eat his lunch somewhere on the wiring harness. I would be carefully examining the harness from the key switch to the relay.
I will have a look tomorrow, I think that the other relays are under the gauges panel and behind the fuses, a bugger to get to.
I think the starter relay is under the hood. There should be two separate relays there. You can back trace the wire from the starter to it. The genus's that designed the harness routing ran it from the console and down under the floor to the relay.
My relays are under the dash cluster and suck to get to. My middle relay has overheated a couple of times, with a short and the base is a little wonky.
Well I suggest an answer to the question, "What is the worst fault an engineer can find on a vehicle". My suggestion is: "An intermittent one" Yesterday whether the ignition switch was connected or not there was always power to the solenoid exciter cable. I have been down to the digger today, checked the cable, no voltage, reconnected the ignition switch, no voltage. With the solenoid cable disconnected I turned the ignition key to start and I could clearly hear the starter relay down below the dashboard assembly clicking. I started the engine using a jump cable, with the permanent cable disconnected and it ran well, I checked voltage on the exciter cable, nothing. So at the moment it is starting and running as it should, but I dare not use it with the exciter cable connected. I have read that the relays can be in different places on this digger, mine are definitely below the ignition switch, although it is an American digger, it was assembled in France and it has the European rear legs vertical as opposed to the US where they go outwards and down. I really need to sell it as I am short of cash, but cannot really sell it as it is. It is very difficult to follow the cables as they disappear into the loom quickly with very little colour shown, and I have not been able to see any rubbing on the loom, it all looks very still and secure.
What symptoms arose when the relay overheated?
A multimeter is your friend. Attach 1 end to the starter solenoid wire at the switch plug in............use the other end to probe every white wire you can find. Set the meter on continuity and listen for the tone while probing. If it does have a start relay, the signal may end there until it is energized. Start relays are usually engaged from something like a neutral start switch signal. This isn't that complicated for veterans in this business.........most of us could find the issue in a few minutes. Since we can't "see" what's going on in person, we have to rely on what knowledge and troubleshooting you can do on your own.
I understand that, and I realise that is what I must do, but to get to it all I will have to remove all the plastic structure to reveal what is beneath, it is old and brittle (Like me) and it is going to be a real challenge removing it without damage, and getting it back in place again afterwards, but I suppose I do not have many options.
When my relay was burning up, the horn would work, then it wouldn’t. Then one time it wouldn’t start, had to jump it. Ended up taking starter out and finding out that was fine. Finally took apart dash and middle relay was toast. Threw one in and no problems since, knocking on wood.
Well I suppose what must be must be, my surname is Hobson, you may well have heard of the term Hobson's Choice. I will let your team of very helpful members know as and when I have resolved the issue, thank you all for your positive input.
Is the serial number of your 580K before or after JJG0020000 ?
JJH0010416
I am still in trouble, still random starter energising. The plastic mouldings around the gear lever, hand throttle and handbrake are very difficult to move, but by frequently feeling components inside while turning the ignition to start position (Starter disconnected) I have found what seems to be the starter relay. But it does not look like any relay I have seen before. It is a plastic block bolted with two bolts to the left hand side of the chassis which supports the fuse block. Is this really the starter relay? If so, how do you get to remove and replace it, the gear levers make access very difficult, and does anyone have the part number. The electrical connections go downwards and look quite thick and there seems to be rust on one of them.
A bit more research and that does not look like the relay, if not, what is it and why do I feel it click when ignition is in start position.
More research shows that on the age (1990) and country of manufacture (France), the starter relay is very different from other models, a very big 75amp relay, held onto the fuse box steel bracket by two bolts as I described, I cannot even find the part number, it seems the only option is to get Case to repair it, but I do not have the resources to fund that.
There is always a chance that someone has previously substituted the Case OEM relay with a generic one. It is not uncommon to do that when an OEM relay unavailable or is hard to find.
After much research it does seem that for about 18 months to two years this big relay was fitted as standard in France, but with a bit of adaption it may be possible to rewire the digger and use the common one used on other vehicles. Not sure I am up to that but I have found a wiring diagram, maybe a local electrician might be able to sort it.
Ford relays are the ones I have seen used as substitutes. They are quite simple to wire. Here is an example of one. Notice that it is a three wire. There are 4 wire versions also available.
What about this one?
Depends on how many amps it is rated for. Continuous duty is not the same as intermittent. Not sure how many amps there is in the circuit it controls. I like Cole Hersee ones as they are rated and specify the voltage. Simon C
If you connect a remote starter button to the starter and it turns that will indicate that the three blade relay and/ its wiring is the problem. The image I am posting shows where it is connected to the starter. Ignore the other temporary test wiring. #1 in the lower left corner is the temporary switch.
Nice picture. If it cranks with the jumper start looking elsewhere as you said. Simon C
What an absolute bitch to get to, I cannot move the plastic shrouding by much, it is limited by the handbrake lever, the gear lever and the hand throttle. I lifted it as high as I could and wedged it with wood planks. I had to remove the seat to get enough room for my hands underneath. Two nuts and bolts, 11mm holding the relay in place, very difficult to get to but finally it was released, there is not enough spare cable to get it out underneath the plastic casing, have to access the screw heads from above. The the plug came off reasonably easily and one of the cables held on with a screw, but the positive cable securing screw was well seized with rust, I have applied WD and will try again tomorrow or Friday, I am a bit busy. I will get a relay ordered. Thank you to all the members for their valuable input. I think the issue was caused when the pin in the top hinge on the right hand door sheared the broken halves were seized into the hinge, and I had to cut down lengthways to release the pins. The door was left open for a while when I searched for replacement pins and the rain got in and started the rusting. A man is waiting to buy it but after the relay is done I have a lot of cleaning and removing rust, then painting all the floor with rustproof paint. Thank you all again.
That is a Bosch style relay. Battery power goes in Pin 30, Goes out 87 when the coil is energized. Pins 86 and 85 are the control circuit, 85 could be going to ground and 86 gets the signal. Any questions fire away. Simon C
Let us know if a new relay resolves the stater problem. If the connector on the wire harness is corroded, cut it off and use female spade connectors in its place.
That was very difficult, had to pull the relay away from the gap using small mole wrench, wedge a length of wood across the cab to push the plastic casing back, had to drill the top of the screw at a slight angle, eventually as you see I have got the relay off, Bosch 0 332 002 150. There are cables going to the triple plug, a black and red going to the lower tab and the red going to the upper rusted tab. What I cannot understand is that there is a heavy weight red battery type cable just dangling behind, about half inch of uninsulated core showing, the core well oxidised so apparently not connected to anything recently, no signs of anything nearby to which it should be connected. I will insulate the end, just in case and now ordering a new relay. Never dreamed that just changing a relay could be so challenging.
Everywhere I have looked for that relay it says out of stock. Does anyone know if the identical looking 0 332 002 168 can be used instead?
Or 0 332 002 156
ADS diesel show a cross reference to the 168 (12v 75A normally open), it looks like the 150 may be obsolete.
The case OEM is a 30 AMP relay and the base connector is rated for 40 amps. Verify that this is the right one. I found several vendors offering them for sale with the OEM part number. I suspect there are many more if you cross reference the part number. Like Simon sed-- Cole-Hersey will have it.
The CNH part number for that relay is L115882 which subs to 91750744 Maybe you'll have better luck finding one that way.
I do not seem to be having much luck. I fitted the new relay, incredibly difficult where it was fitted, such a lot in the way, not least the big rigid plastic cover over the levers and holding the switches, but in the end all cables were in the position as fitted to the old relay. Reconnected the battery, nothing. Not even the lights would work, put a meter on the battery 11.91v normally it would start with that voltage. I don't know what to do, any professional heavy equipment repairers would demand that it was taken to their workshops and the transport would cost a fortune on its own. I did mention that there was a heavy red cable dangling behind with no obvious place to go and very difficult to get to, and the bare end of the cable seemed oxidised such that it may not have been firmly located in a connection. I wonder if it is the main power feed to the fuse panel, if so where would it fit, and how may I reconnect it if it is? Access is so restricted.
I have looked at other posts on this site about the fuse boxes, however they seem very different to mine, being assembled in France. I will see if I can disconnect the fuse box and try to pull it out far enough to see if and where the power cable may have been connected. I suppose first thing it to put my meter between the end of the cable and earth to find if it is actually connected to the battery. The cables are so short, it seems that no thoughts have gone to the initial design to aid service.
Every time i have a problem under my dash, on my 580 i cringe because my hands don’t fit and everything that is connected, is so damn short. I have a bad relay base that needs replacement, sooner or later but have been putting it of because of the frustration I will have to go through.
If only they had made the plastic cover easily removable and left enough length on the cables to allow maintenance, life would have been so much easier.
Best get yourself a better Multimeter or get your battery charged or change it. A battery at 11.91 volts is basically dead. Need to deal with your super low voltage before wasting anymore time troubleshooting. A good battery sits at 12.6 volts and will not go down without heavy load. Start at figuring out what is going on with battery. Any questions fire away. Simon C
That cable is not long enough to connect to the top or bottom of the fuse block where all the other cables join, is there any chance it could join in the back, or might there be another hidden block below that it should join to, I am at a loss. The battery has been disconnected for some time, and it has started the digger at that voltage in the past, however with the battery showing that voltage, no current is getting to any components in the cab, no lights, no ignition siren, just dead. The battery is large Varta and only a couple of years old, if the digger had been used recently the voltage would have been higher, even the old battery which had been replaced would have illuminated the ignition and lights, this battery cannot be correctly connected to the fuse box. My multimeter is fine and used regularly. I just wish I could find out where that loose heavy cable should go, it is so short there cannot be many options.
Maybe post a picture of what it looks like, and maybe suggestions will follow. Just for your info, a 12.0 volt battery is only like 10 percent or less capacity. Don't waste your time with oldschool thinking that it started like that at one time. Get it charged or get rid of is my suggestion. Are the battery connections all clean. One of my customers recently told me his battery was at 14.1 volts. Found out his meter was on wrong scale to measure 12 volts accurately. His alternator that he thought was chargeing was junk. Clean cables and good battery is essential for proper troubleshooting. Good ground connections also. Simon C
It is so difficult to access I am not sure I can get a photo which will make any sense. No issues with my meter, I have used it twice to check amps on parasitic drains on cars, I know which scale to use. All connections to the battery are clean and tight. There is just no current getting from the battery to any circuits, I think the big short cable below the fuse box is the issue, but I cannot see where it should attach. I will check today if it has current.
Well I have confirmed that the red cable is power directly from the battery. In the photo it shows the cable which I have pulled out with difficulty from behind the fuse box mixed with many other cables, there is a bit of electrical tape I put on the end to stop it shorting with the chassis. It was found poking out at floor level to the rear left of the chassis support for the fuse box, no obvious place it had been connected to. It would seem that if I could find out where it should have been connected and refit it we might be on the way to getting the tractor going.
Can someone tell me if the four small bolts locating the fuse box are self tappers or are there nuts on the other side, if so I have no idea how to get to them.
The big power cable is unlikely to connect to the fuse box as all of the fuses are 30 amp or less, the starter relay being 75 amp, so it must connect elsewhere.
Are you reasonably sure the red power cable isn’t supplying voltage to the back of the fuse block for one or all 3 fuse blocks with grid connections? Have you checked current on the fuses with the key on? Unfortunately, i think if your battery connections are clean and the battery is good, this should be a simple fix, that you are overlooking. I believe that when this started, it was the solenoid on the starter but you may have made it worse as now you have nothing. That leads me to that big red wire.
You can see that top dead center of the fuse panel the fuse receptacle burnt out. That panel is quite dirty by the way and could be cleaned up or at least inspected on the back side. A real schematic would sure help. Simon C
The top centre fuse position has always been like that since I bought the digger 14 years ago, all of the retaining screws for the brown plastic cover have been missing since I bought it so someone had already been messing around underneath. There is no current on the fuse block, none goes to the ignition switch. Before this incident, there was never a lack of current to the digger circuits. What I think must have happened is that the relay failed and in the struggle to remove the old rusted relay and replace it with a new one the main power cable has become detached, the problem remains, where should it be refitted?
I would want to se the back of that fuse box as who knows what it is like behind. Maybe a wire broken off. Will not know till checked out. I would pay for a schematic from dealership if available. Simon C
Well I will attempt to remove the fuse box, I hope the four retaining bolts do not have a nut on the other side otherwise I don't know how it can be done, and to get to the heads of the two lower bolts will be a challenge. I am very interested to find where the ends of the red cables going to the big separate fuse to the left of the fuse box go, I am hoping that if I remove the fuse box I will get access and one end is where the loose cable should be attached to.
What amp fuse is in that holder?
Do you have the service manual for your 580K ??
I do not have a service manual, as I hope to sell it soon I do not plan on getting one. After all of the grief I have found the cause of lack of electrical power. I have explained how little room there was to work and view the starter relay, right at the bottom to the left of the fuse box, concealed behind gear levers and the brown plastic panelling. One of the screws retaining cables onto the relay was rusted and seized. I had no choice other than trying to drill the screw head out, it was a slot screw not phillips so very difficult to centre the drill or even see clearly what I was doing. When eventually the screw head came away the cables attached shot away against the tension. What I didn't realise was that one was the power cable coming from the battery, as I said the cable was short and I had to pull hard against it to get access to the relay screws. What must have happened when the cables shot away was that the loop fixing at the end of the 6mm battery cable came away from the cable and shot away underneath and I did not see it. After digging around I accidentally found it and everything became clear, I hope. I have ordered a new connector and hope to get the digger fixed and sold just after Christmas. Thank you to all the members for their valued advice and suggestions, my apologies for wasting your time
Post # 74 above I mentioned that I would want to see what is happening to connections behind that fuse panel. Glad I am still on track. Simon C
Simon, you are a legend in your own mind. Lol You were late to the party, I was first. Sarcasm lol.
You did not waste our time. This thread will provide valuable information for others with a similar problem. Your photo shows the results of someone that should be arrested for butchering a battery connection like that. A slotted screw was holding it ? Good grief ! I hope that you replace the entire cable and use a hex head bolt and nut instead of a slotted screw.
Yes HarleyHappy you wee correct in Post number 71 which stated what needed to be done. I thought maybe someone else stating the same thing would motivate mhobson to get that thing out of there or you will never know what might be hiding behind. See it all to often. Simon C
That’s alright, I just had a problem plowing the other night and noticed no front lights and no dash lights on my 580 SE. Tracked it down to a problem with the light switch under the dash. Had to finish plowing with a light on my hat. Next day was tired and sore, fell on the ice and had my hands in my pockets at the time, so hit my ass, shoulders and back of my head. Wasn’t in the mood for removing the 100 pound seat and all the other shenanigans for removing the dash. Popped the gauge cluster out and took a Roto Zip to the left dash panel area. Found a melted connector and fixed it in 5 minutes and taped the cut off piece back. Now in the future, I will not dread going under the dash. Taught that old Case a lesson. lol
So eventually I managed to find a connector for my heavy cable from the battery which I could use, it had to be clamped, there was not enough space to solder, damaged my hand underneath the plastic cover getting the relay assembly connected securely, reconnected the battery, and the digger started, GREAT! Hang on, not so fast, as soon as I put the direction lever under the steering wheel into either forward or reverse, the loud alarm sounded, the one which turns on when you turn the ignition on, before the engine starts, put it back to neutral and it stopped. I had to upset quite a few cables when I had to lift all of the plastic panel up to get space underneath to work on the relay, maybe I have dislodged something. Can anyone suggest which cable may have been affected to cause this problem.