So made some repairs to an exhaust bracket with broken bolts just before this issue started, don't think it's related but maybe coincidence? After that exhaust repair the backhoe ran for about 5-10mins at idle then slowly died off.. I was able to restart and had to throttle up for it to run for 30secs. Then it wouldn't run at all. I've replaced the in line fuel filter before the lift pump, replaced the lift pump, checked for leaks in the fuel lines and fittings and tried bleeding the fuel system. I also removed the plunger from the electronic fuel shut off on the injector pump. It cranks strong and will smoke a good amount while cranking but no start. It will run on ether but once spray done won't run on its own. I'm assuming it's getting enough fuel to the cylinders evident from the smoke and enough fuel pressure to crack the injectors open. I'm confused on this one?? Any help appreciated
Did you weld on it, without disconnecting the battery by chance?
Nope no welding, just drill out old bolt & tap new threads.
What color is the smoke ? White or heavy black ?
It was a dark grey to black in color, and on the heavier side.
The odd thing was went from running no different then last 3yrs, then just gradually quit.
I'm starting to think it might be a bad bosch VE injection pump. I'm really at a loss
Have you checked voltage at fuel shutoff solenoid? Have your removed the fuel shutoff solenoid and tested it?
I did check the fuel shut off solenoid and had 12V there with key on. I also removed the plunger to completely rule it out
Then I’d say next thing is to remove IP and injectors and have tested. If you’re sure your getting fuel to injectors.
Yea I only say I'm getting fuel to the cylinders because I'm getting the exhaust smoke from something combusting. I don't think the pressure is there between IP and injectors though, cause when the lines are completely off of the injectors I don't seem to get a big volume of fuel. Injectors are out now and I can get injection pump out fairly easily now. I think I will verify compression in each cylinder then likely throw a new IP and injectors at it. For the cost of the injector tests and IP test and or rebuild around here I can buy new parts for less or close to even l.
So small update. Cylinders are all testing between 330 - 350 psi on compression check so that's good. All of the injectors are out and all injector lines out, and after cranking for the compression test it seems like a good volume of fuel coming out of the IP so I think I'll just get a set of replacement injectors to try. Still concerned the pressure at the injector tip isn't enough to atomize the fuel properly but is enough to just crack the injector and let enough fuel in to cause all the exhaust smoke on start attempts
It sure seems like fuel issue or timing…..A hydrualic spool for sure isnt stuck just a little. on the older SLs I’ve had the swing priority do funny stuff
Thanks for the response.. I tried all the levers to relieve pressure but forgot about the pedals. The odd thing is it was running at idle fine for about 10 minutes then just died.
Right now I've got all lines off between injection pump and injectors and I've got small baggies zip tied over each injector port on the pump. When I was cranking for compression test those little baggies did fill with some fuel and some pressure, but I think they would have over filled with fuel or pressure and blew off and they did not... so I'm still leaning towards the pump.
Don't waste your money on new injectors. Just send them and the pump to thepumpguysc He can test them. He can rebuild rebuild the pump to like new, cheaper than anyone.
U can take an injector out of the engine and hook it back up to a line and spin the engine over an SEE if it’s popping off.. Just DONT GET NEAR THE SPRAY.!!
Hey guys an update. I have now replaced the IP and the injectors and have the backhoe up and running. It runs smooth and idles at around 900RPM with minimal smoke, but the full throttle RPM seems to be off on the new pump which may be a rebuilt but looks new. It will rev up to about 2200rpm with no load then it's like it hits a rev limiter and with load it revs up to about 1800rpm then defuels. Would this be a need for a different governor spring?? It feels like it's down on power when driving aswell. This injection pump did not come timed so I bought the proper gauge and timed it to 1.55mm .
How fast do u want it to go .. Go look at the throttle and find the hi idle screw and back it out a full turn. BUT.. it’s gonna void the warranty if it has a seal on it… WHY wasn’t the timing locked ?
Don't want it to go fast, but at 1800rpm under a load while driving it will start to surge and defuel. I'm thinking 2500RPM would be a good Max RPM since max HP is at 2200RPM. I'm not sure why it wasn't timed, but the lock pin had the clip un it already when I got it on the box. Timing it wasn't hard just needed to aquire a new tool. But with the feeling of the RPM's surging at around 1800RPM I'm thinking the governor spring change might help? Don't think I should mess with the fuel screw. Thank you for the help
The pump is ordered was a 3919846 which is the same as the J919846 which Case's parts book calls for on my machine. Maybe there was a wrongly selected spring on the rebuild of this IP, although it does look brand new. Is there any other set up process to these pumps?
Send the pump back to whoever worked on it. If they didn't know enough to lock the timing they probably shouldn't be working on injection pumps. thepumpgoysc is as close as your nearest UPS drop-off facility.
U timed it to the wrong spec.. Should be 1.80mm & hi idle no-load speed is 2325-2425 rpm.. Could explain all your symptoms.. timing is to early..u need to open the gap.. Oh, btw, u HAVE TO MAKE SURE ur turning the dr shaft in the correct rotation.!! Hope this helps..
Thank you, @thepumpguysc , I'll try adjusting it to 1.80mm. Hopefully that will help with the RPM's. If I were closer to thepumpguysc I would have sent the original to him and may have been more cost effective. My local injection shop wanted $700-1000 to rebuild my original pump and i bought what looks to be a brand new pump for $625 and no core exchange so I went that route. But in hindsight might have been cheaper to send the pump to thepumpguysc and pay the shipping costs. Might still send him my original for a rebuild and to have as a spare. I timed the pump by going to the lowest point just before the rod starts to move and zeroed my gauge, then slowly turned until 1.55mm on the bench and locked it. It lined up with the key in the gear. Then once installed on the machine I checked it again before hooking all the lines back up. I'll install the gauge on the pump while still in the machine and rotate it to get to 1.80mm and try that. Thank you
U obviously have a grasp on how to time it.. BUT.. what I need to stress is the rotation your using.. On the name plate it “should” have the rotation stamped, cleaverly hidden in the pump mdl.. VE-“R”… Or VE-“L”… And it’s always taken FROM THE FRONT of the pump.. If you’re standing IN FRONT OF THE PUMP, look AT THE DR. SHAFT.. NOW turn the dr shaft LEFT OR RIGHT.. or clockwise or counterclockwise, for us Americans.. Good luck And don’t tell everybody.!! It’s an ancient Chinese secret.!!
I see the VE? The rotation of the pump should be clockwise looking towards the shaft based on what the backhoe turns Again thank you for your help, and your likely right this is likely a leaked Chinese secret!! Lol
I’m thinking your timing is off. But that’s just me.
It’s an “R” rotation.. Standing IN FRONT of the pump, u turn the drive shaft to the RIGHT.. clockwise. I told u it was hidden.. lol
What happened.?? Did it fix the problem.??
Sorry damn daylight savings time... it's dark when I get home... hoping to get at it Friday. I'll let you know
I know whatcha mean.. Thanks for getting back to us..
Is the CPL based on which injectors are used?? I'm assuming my CPL for the 4T-390 is CPL #710? Still haven't gotten a chance to try the adjustment but just trying to gain more knowledge
There’s probably about 10-15 different cpls.. it’s a controlled parts list.. whenever u buy any parts for your engine, u should consult the CPL number. I JUST GOT DONE with a pump and set of injectors.. 1 of the injectors had the wrong tip in it.. so which one is right.?? I looked up the pump and got the CPL.. THEN I took the CPL and looked up the injectors.. There was only 1 part # allotted for the tip for that CPL.. he had 3 correct tips and 1 wrong.. the wrong tip opened up 1500 psi higher than the correct ones.. Dealing with Cummins engines can be very confusing if you aren’t familiar with the process.. It’s not as simple as getting online and entering your engine model and expect to get the correct parts..
Your CPL is 730.. Out of curiosity, where did u get the 1.55mm lock timing.??
I guess some bad research on my part, reading somewhere online that someone else replacing an IP on a case 580SL had got from the Case shop manual that it was to be set at 0.059inch (1.50mm). Then from a chart I found on a Cummins forum I figured it couldn't be 1.50mm and saw a listing of 1.55, 1.65, 1.80, and 2.00mm so I just tried the closest to what the supposed shop manual said... Oh well, I'm learning more and more about diesels, injection, and 580's everyday.
Lol.. I hear ya.. Information is what we’re here for.. so just ask..
So got the IP adjusted to 1.80mm and backhoe starts up fine and feels like most of the power is back. Just a small amount of black smoke on cold start and when throttling up but other then that just a slight hint of grey / black smoke. Still when throttling up if I apply throttle slowly with no load it will get to 2400rpm, then if it goes over that will defuel and bounce back and forth between 1650 - 2000rpm. If I apply throttle quickly with no load it will just bounce back and forth between 1650 - 2000rpm. And if driving for example in 2nd gear will only go to 2000rpm and not over. Like i say power seems to be back but in still not sure about the rpm window. Feels different then before this injector pump, but not sure what adjustments or parts were changed on the old pump, maybe it was modified.
It could be a supply problem.?? Did u change out the supply/lift pump first.?? To find your full load speed, u first have to find your NO-LOAD SPEED.. Let’s call it 2400 rpm.. u take the 2400 and subtract 10%..which in this case is 240 rpm..which is 2160 rpm FULL LOAD RPM. Which is a far cry from 1650.. Have u blown out your fuel feed and return lines AND changed the filters.?? (Back blow)
Lemme ask u.. did you match the numbers off the old pump to the new pump.?? Specifically the Bosch 10 digit number.?? 0 460 424 ??? Remember that little talk we had about CPL numbers.. Unless u got a like for like pump,(10 digit #) it’s possible u got the wrong one.?? Have u run the throttle BY HAND yet.?? Just to eliminate any mechanical (linkage) issues.??
Yep, the pump numbers match Part # J919846 so 3919846 And bosch #460 424 081 These numbers all match. I did replace the lift pump and inline small fuel filter first before changing the injection pump. Haven't changed the larger fuel water seperator filter yet. I don't see any leaks. Could be old fuel too.
I did blow out the fuel lines as well
Linkages all operate freely but can't get it to the factory set high limit even operating it by hand without it surging