Bumped into a guy tonight I've known for some time, I used to do some part time work for him and his father several years ago running equipment, feeding the screening plant (usually screening topsoil), etc. He got to telling me that he is selling his Case excavtor (don't recall the model, but it's the same as a 490 John Deere?) because he's having trouble finding good operators. (He's been somewhat downsizing last couple years in the equipment side, and using more contractors, because the jobs he's doing are often a distance away.) One of the catch 22 deals, he's found a particular niche that he does well at, but because of the travel involved, he has a hard time with operators. He knows that I've been wanting to go full time with excavating, and suggested I buy it, (he'd finance, or line me up with financing) and he'd hire me for a batch of work that he has lined up over the next few months. Tempting though it is in a way, I'm also not sure if I want to do the traveling that he does (often about 2 hours each way, in all different directions) I wrote down some of the details, but they're in the truck still. Can anyone tell me more about this particular excavator, for starters? I'll get the info later and may even start the 'contract work' portion in another thread.
The comparable machine to a deere 490 would be case 9010 or 9010b . actualy the 9010b would be a little more powerful than the 490. I have a 9010b and have been well pleased with it. The B series case excavators are the same as the linkbelt Q series except for the engines. Cummins in the Case and Isuzu in the Link belt. The case has somewhat more horsepower than other machines in its class 106 as opposed to around 85 for its competitors. If the machine is in good cindition I think you will be well pleased with it.l
I'd say it sounds like a good deal if you dont mind the travel. Moving the excavator those distances is going to be costly unless you have your own truck, and even then it is costly. If you can get some other work as well that was a bit closer then it would make it a little easier.
A little more info, it's a 97, with 8500 hours. (I don't have any history or condition at this point.) He's asking $38K Canadian...guess it's gone up in value last few weeks huh? He tells me that I'd get $90/hour from him, most of the jobs he's into the machine only moves once a month or so, and he has flatbeds to do it with. (His shop is only 4-5 miles from me, part of how I know him.) If going from one of his jobs to another, he'll float it as needed. If I want to bring it home, or to another job, then it will be standard float rates, but for the first while I can't see a lot of that happening. He told me they seem to run about $10/hour for fuel through it (diesel is about $1/litre here now!! yikes!). I'm not ruling out the idea, but will have to sit down and get some more figures before long, or before proceeding any further with it. I'm hoping that the hours would be such that I can still run my mini ex business part time, but that would be something I'd have to wait and see about. I know he's wanted to hire me on occasion with the mini, but my work schedule really hasn't let me do it, so generally he's rented and done that work himself. With something like this, I know income tax changes a lot, and I'd need to expand my insurance to cover the machine and work it does. Any other expenses I'm not thinking of? I think I'd setup a pallet system for my flatbed dump that would contain a toolbox and fuel tank, so I can take it back off to use when I need it. Of course I'm going to need fuel and so on for both the truck and machine, as well as typical maintenance costs. I'd also be financing the machine, so will have those payments to contend with. He's close to having enough work lined up (a bunch should get the go ahead after the new year) that should let me pay the machine off before running out of work for it. I likely wouldn't do anything until then anyway. I know once I have the machine, and word gets out, I'd have other work soon enough. Anyone have a good link to a page with specs on it? I really don't know too much about the machine.....trying to get a little more familiar with it.
I can't find the edit button. Just realized I forgot to say it's a Case, either a 9010, or 9010B (I'm not sure which, can anyone tell me the differences?) Will have to go through the forum and see what sort of stuff I need to look at, but I think oil analysis (not sure if it has a history of that or not) and an inspection for wear would be up there. I'm thinking he might be a little bit high, depending on the configuration and options etc. (Maybe not if it has extra buckets, thumb, quick coupler, etc...)
An update Well, I got news yesterday that I will likely be 'downsized' in the next few weeks where I work full time. Made a call today to the guy with the machine, and ended up going to see him and the machine both. It is a 9010 Case, with a 4 cyl Cummins. Currently at 8700 hrs, and has the regular excavating bucket, and a 5'(?) cleaning/ditching bucket. It does need paint, and he is prepared to paint it in the next 2-3 weeks, but that is my call if I decide to buy it. (Though honestly, I'd get that done anyway, he's a good equipment painter, I've seen lots of his work, and could even go help with it and do some other minor stuff that needs done too.) He's asking 38K Can as it is, and with the deal we're talking, likely 40K repainted and new decals. Pics of the machine and engine.
Pics of the undercarriage.
Since it's looking like I'm going to be out of work just about the same time that the excavating should be commencing, I have to wonder if the timing is a 'sign'.....I had been hoping to do something like this, but was waiting until next year, as my wife will be finished school and working full time then. I have a lot of things to look at when it comes to this decision... He has work lined up for most of the summer for this and other machines, I don't think that will be an issue....and he will still have his float to move it as needed. (There are also other float trucks available in the local area if I need to get it moved for some other reason.) I told him that days it needs moved, as long as I know in advance, I would likely use as an opportunity to do the mini excavating work that I have, so should be able to make use of those days as well. Guess I have some thinking to do!!
Case excavator purchase Well I have try to discourage anyone on other forums from going into business at this time. After reading your story and if its the whole truth and nothing but the truth (whole story truth) I think I would encourage the move. The Case is a good machine, I prefer Komatsu, or Cat, but thats just me, they are all good, mostly. Unless I missed this, what kind of work are you going to do? This is a good size machine, but its not a high production machine, but it depends what you are going to do. Every machine, has its certain jobs, that it can do great. I put the Cat 320 and the Komatsu PC200 up against any other machine, IN GENERAL CONSTRUCTION, thought I would add that so no one gives me any flack. If the owner is going to give you work, help you with the moving, help you get financing, and he is a friend, all this is a positive. Things to consider is: 1. workers comp and general liability ins (you may not need this in your area) 2. working capital-sometimes it takes weeks to get paid 3. break downs/repairs-how you going to handle this? 4. if youre married, you got to have her support, or forget it Hard to tell, but sprockets appear to have wear on them, this is not a real bad thing, easy to change. Do you know this machine, have you worked it lately? This is a good way to find out if it has any negative things. Just check it out, I know if your friend is trying to help you get started, it would be bad to bring in someone to check it out for you. I agree that its a little high on the price, but I dont know the whole story Im finished, good luck and keep us posted
Well it is not a B series which is a little unfortunate. Assuming that the Can. Dollar and the American are about 6's the cost of the machine seems high to me. Although new paint would help resale.
He has a couple projects lined up for this year, and smaller stuff that comes along as well. The big stuff is a golf course, where this machine would be doing a lot of the clean up work around ponds, bunkers and the like, where the bigger machines don't fit as well. (Not sure what stage it's at right now, but I believe it was started last fall, and shut down for winter.) He's figuring this machine would be there for about three months, starting mid april once the weather lets them get going. I know the other job he has for this that it would go to next is a pile of trenching and footing work, not sure what the construction project is. (Until I give him at least an indication I'm interested, I didn't want to be too nosy.) He will still have the float/truck to move stuff (this will be one of about 6-7 machines that he will have under contract to him), and he's even thinking that he may make himself available if someone needs a day off, or is sick. (He's been running equipment 25-30 years, and runs this stuff all the time.) "If the owner is going to give you work, help you with the moving, help you get financing, and he is a friend, all this is a positive." He has contracts signed for the big projects until fall this year...I suspect if I asked that he would have no issues showing them to me. Moving he will look after, when needed. Friend, well, I've known him about 10 years, and his father (passed away couple years ago). I've never seen or heard him lie, though sometimes good intentions will allow himself to get spread too thin. When I was looking for my mini-ex, he was the one that steered me onto the one I have, and for what I paid, I'm still happy with the machine. "Things to consider is:" 1. workers comp and general liability ins (you may not need this in your area) Insurance I will get, rough quote is about $1000/year. Workers comp I am looking into tomorrow, it is a requirement on many of the sites that we'd be working on. 2. working capital-sometimes it takes weeks to get paid He's set things up that he pays us the Monday for the previous weeks work. Don't know if he's 'bankrolling' that, or how he's doing it, but if it works for him, it will work for me. 3. break downs/repairs-how you going to handle this? General maintenance I will do as much as I can myself, though not a full fledged mechanic, I've been wrenching on all kinds of stuff for a long time. Stuff beyond my capabilities, well, depending on what it is, I'd have to hire it done. I'm going to look into oil analysis to see what it shows for current wear on the machine. Course, there's no way to tell if the hyd pump is about to crap out for certain, but he's told me with my work situation that whether I go work for him or not, to let him know if we need some assistance short term, so I would imagine it would be the same for a major machine issue. 4. if youre married, you got to have her support, or forget it She's in favour of me getting out of the job I'm in, in fact a few months ago was suggesting I look at all my options. (This was just being lightly mentioned to me then, and she was, and still is, in support of it.) She was even suggesting I look into work at spots such as Fort McMurray (the tar sands), but honestly, I don't want to be away from the family that length of time. The tracks have a master link, saw that today looking it over, so I suspect that is a job I could do, I've done some undercarriage work before. I haven't actually worked this machine yet though. I suspect that if I asked to have someone come evaluate it, that it wouldn't be an issue, at least for him/me...when there today I asked about pictures, no problem....and then he had to head out, I asked if I could look it over some more, again no problem. Lots of calls tomorrow to find out what I can about various things....hopefully I don't overload myself. Oh, and yep, the 2-4 weeks notice for layoff we were told yesterday? We got our notices tonight. (Part of the reason I want out, perhaps?)
job over Can you draw unemployment? Not sure if you have that in your area, if so draw it as long as you can, plus make the new business work. I am an employer, but thats what I would recommend for you. Good Luck and keep us posted
Looking into that right now, yes, I can draw unemployment, the question here is if or how much I can make self employed while doing so. Another good friend that's been in business for himself for 30 years played devil's advocate, and thinks I should go out on my own with my small machine...no debt to worry about, and draw on my other skills (welding and carpentry stuff) to try to fill any gaps. One thing with that option is it allows me to return to work if there is a recall, but I really don't know whether I want to stick around there, I think I've about had enough. Lots of things/options to think about, and I hate being shoved into a corner to do them quickly....I appreciate everyone's input. Maybe I should ask if anyone knows of other opportunities here in central ontario?
I'm confussed, the owner is going to give you work, help you with the moving, help you get financing, help with any major maintaince. So what is he going to gain my subbing out a machine and operator. Seems to me if he couldn't find good people to work for him, he would just hire you as a foreman or higher paid operator if he likes your work that much. I've only seen it a few times around here where a contractor will sub out work to another and that's only when their extremely swamped. The only thing I can see that this friend is gaining is he can use you and the machine from time to time when he needs and not worry about maintaince on a older machine or payments for a new machine that size that he only uses from time to time and he doesn't have to hire another employee and worry about keeping him busy, workers comp., benefits, etc. Also bad thing about working for strickly one customer what are you going to do when work runs out, don't get paid for long periods, or don't see eye to eye, better have a back up plan or have more customers than just the one. Good Luck!!
He has several guys that are working for him now as sub contractors, currently each having different machines/capabilities. One has a larger excavator, one has a 650 JD dozer, etc. He uses each machine where it is most appropriate. He earns 10-20 an hour per machine, so if he has 5 or 6 machines running, he's making a good dollar. I would also assume that there is a margin on each contract that he also benefits from. He is getting away from owning machines/hiring operators. As we know on here, there are lots of lever pushers, few good operators. A lot have left here to go west, so the pickings are slim. The other thing of course is a machine owner looks after their equipment, an operator punches the clock and goes home, doesn't care if tracks are cleaned out, greasing has been done, things looked over, etc. He's also finding the accounting a lot easier when he doesn't have to do individual income taxes, worker's comp, etc. I can see why he's doing that move...but it is not without faults for the owners/contractors working for him. Each guy among the 'crew' so to speak is on the lookout for opportunities, if a dozer guy is asked about excavating work, he passes it along, and vice versa. Having all the eggs in one basket, especially short term, is a concern for me, but if the contracts are correct, there's enough work for the machines for the season. I would want to get it in writing. Another friend suggested to me today that if the financing is third party, see if he will co-sign, that way he has an interest in making sure I get work, and paid. I'm taking his numbers (12 hour days, 5-6 days a week) and chopping them to about half....30 hours a week, and seeing what still works. I'm also hoping to get together with him in the next couple days (depending on holiday scheduling) and really 'grill' him, see if I detect any holes in this, and also to see what he will commit to on paper. Of course, I would go check with a lawyer before signing anything as well. (I'd still like to think my parents didn't raise a fool ) I'd REALLY like to find more specs on the machine....though I did find this 9010B Can anyone tell me what the exact differences are between the 9010, and the 'B' version? I'm suspecting that it's engine/hp, but wonder if there are other differences.
All I can tell you is that if I was a customer intending to have work done by a certain guy and someone else shows up to do it, I'd be less than happy. Not sure how both of you think that all those projects are going to go as planned without him being there to supervise. If I hire a guy to do dirtwork, I hired him for a reason. If I just wanted "some guy", which these projects he has lined up doesn't sound quite that way, I could go out and hire anyone with a machine. Trust me on this, I've been pawned off to go handle jobs for a buddy of mine who was too busy to do it. Show up with my machine and get a less than welcoming look. I always did a good job and the customer was happy in the end, but they feel jipped that the guy they hired subbed it out.
Just a quick note, It likes like a pretty tidy machine, how many hours do you predict to do, was looking at your idler and is adjusted a fair way out meaning the chains will need sorting at some stage. I had spacers in between adjuster and idler and one link removed hahaha pretty butch but got the very last hour out of it, although they jump off fairly easy like that.
So did you get the machine or not? The price does sound a little high, I have been looking at a 99 2650 link belt which is basically the same as 9010. It has a hyd. thumb, same buckets as yours and 10,000 hrs. for $27,500 and I think he would take less. If you did get it how's it working out. :drinkup
I haven't bought the machine, but I have been running it the last 2-3 weeks. Seems to be working well, but I am getting a lot of the mud/water work, working on a new golf course along with a 230 and a 270 Deere, also a JD 650H LT, and a cat...(older d6? I think?) dozers right now. A couple areas we need to work are/were rather wet, so I got the job of exploring through the bush and creating drainage ditches to get the water drained away. Everything I've touched is either mucky topsoil, or sticky clay. Knock on wood, I've always got back out of the holes I've gotten into, though I have had to give the 650 a tug when he high centered on a mound of wet clay. Things seem to be drying up though, I hope so, they want to bring in a couple tandem trucks next week for moving material around!! The machine needed some small details tended to, the connector for the wiper motor was buggered up, radio antenna broken, and a fan belt that needed replaced. Machine starts right up, even though we've had frost warnings a few nights, good on fuel, I don't know exact numbers yet, but I would guess well under 100 litres in a full 10 hour day (Machine might be idled for 5-10 minutes in that time?) Only issue that has came up is the throttle control, it goes from idle to almost full rpm now, no control in between, I suspect that maybe the potentiometer has died and needs replaced, will look into that more the next few days. We're still kicking around on the price, I realize it's maybe higher than what it should be, but I know I have work for it for most of this season if I go through with it. I also know it's history, as I know the current owner, and have also talked to the previous owner. (Likely the next 2-3 months on the same golf course less than an hour from home) Floating he looks after, as well he is still lining up more work for it. May have a bunch of rock placing to do around ponds after freeze-up (another golf course project near home), if it pans out I would definitely add a thumb to it.
Excavator I hate to always sound negative when I answer this questions, but I know a bunch of people that has jumped into a big loan and cant make the payment. There is another question similar to this one, in this forum, as someone else said "Why would someone rent a machine (for a long period) from a owner operator, when he can buy a machine and pay himself back and the machine is his??? I recall, you said, your friend said he couldnt get operators to travel, why doesnt he offer extra money, to travel on these jobs? I pay my guys (and one gal) from the time they leave, to the time they get back to the shop. This is anything over an hour, one way. Good Luck on your decision, BUT remember this 1. work stops, whata going to do? How you going to pay the loan payments? 2. Bad break down, whata gonna do? Its hard to come up with $10-$20,000 for a engine, Hyd pump, track/rails, etc 3. You can get unemployment, unless you are self employed, if work stops 4. With fuel prices going up everyday, it takes a bunch of money to fuel up every day, especially when you only get paid once a month Good Luck whatever you do